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brother_fandango
21-11-2005, 00:34
hey all. would an army of crusaders from terra that worship a modern-day God be viable in 40k? i see how there are "crusades" and such in 40k, would it work. i see space marines with white aurmor, and for banners, hugely decorated crosses, and murals on the side f tanks depicting medieval scenes with the christ in them. viable?

cerealkiller195
21-11-2005, 00:36
sure its your money you can do anything you want with your models.

Commanderxenos
21-11-2005, 00:39
you could... but it wouldn't go along with the warhammer 40k theme too well, as their "God" is the Emperor!

Khaine's Messenger
21-11-2005, 01:11
hey all. would an army of crusaders from terra that worship a modern-day God be viable in 40k?

From a wargame perspective? Hey, your money. From a background perspective? Well, again, it's really your money and your time, so whatever you make doesn't even have to be self-consistant as long as you like it! From a more haughty perspective, a group of crusaders worshipping Yahweh/Jehovah in 40k is as likely as starting a crusade in the name of Ishtar, Zeus, Baal, Mephiston, Ahura Mazda, or etc. today (although to be fair, there are still practicing Zoroastrians in the hinterlands of modern "Persia," iirc). Possible given the sheer variety of Ecclesiarchy sects, but given culture drift over tens of millenia, the more "writ in stone" background fancier would probably think you're nuts.


i see space marines with white aurmor, and for banners, hugely decorated crosses, and murals on the side f tanks depicting medieval scenes with the christ in them. viable?

Human sacrifice is a very common concept in 40k (the Imperium is built on the blood of martyrs!). You could even disguise it in Imperial overtones if people get too "offended"--that is, you can be as overt as you want with Christian (or Islamic, Jewish, etc.) imagery, add a few aquilas, and put on a "who, me?" look if people get mad (as opposed to going "hey, kewl!"), like one of the local guys who made an army of stunty Space Marines and, when asked whether or not they were supposed to be Squats, just smiled and went "aheheheheheheh....if you want them to be."

sigur
21-11-2005, 01:21
I hope that people go into this stupid muslim-comment a bit more and this thread gets wasted or deleted.

Fluffwise, Space Marines worshipping the christian definition of god is highly questionable. Sure, there are planets who worship the emperor in very different ways, but SM almost always worship the Emperor within the common rules set by the Codex Astartes. Apart from that, it's always problematic to weave real-world religion into 40k (funny thing is that it's almost only SM players do that.). I'd stay away from it. If you like Christianity (which is totally normal; I don't wanna read annoying militant self-claimed atheist's views here) just read about church history.:)

Psiweapon
21-11-2005, 01:48
Well, hey, I think that as long as you "flavour" it a bit as the Emperor worshipment, it'd be all fine and dandy. It's your time and effort. And if someone gets upset about it - well, it's their time and effort! :D

About the muslim comment... well, hey, all work and no play...

EVIL INC
21-11-2005, 03:27
After seeing armies made up to look like modern day football teams, I see no reason why this idea couldnt be done and be done to look VERY good. I am big on the old crusades and so forth and would LOVE to see an army done up with them as the theme. The question I would have is would all the participants be represented? I mean for example, the Hospitallers and Templers fought side by side so often. Would it be set after the Tuetons were formed? Would the "reguler joe" knights and troops be represented?
Likewise, I also firmly believe that the musli armies from that time period could be done very well as well. The only difference is that they didnt go in as much for the heavy armored troops. Would you use a largly bike mobile force to represent thier light cavelry? I would see a gaurd army being more representative of them so long as you used lots of rough riders.

brother_fandango
21-11-2005, 03:53
i was planning on using a sm army, with termies being the "inner circle" brethren, giving them bigger stormsheilds, and crosses on the hilts of their swords. the knighst would be the reg sms, maybe give them metal helms. bikers would equate to knights, prolly no lances as such, but prolly long hand and a half swords. scouts would be things like arrow boys, pages, and servants. theyd be painted in a brown color scheme. a command squad would be the priests and prophets of the army, prolly toting an altar just for kicks. id prolly slap an inquisitor in there for the high ranking official in the army, like a warrior correspondant from the vatacin. and the pope would be my chapter master. (no disrespect meant. it would just fit, since you dont need sex to reproduce in the 41st mellimum, and thatd be awesome) the pope-mobile would be a thunderhawk gunship, and id be almost forced to have one or two land raider crusaders in there.

EVIL INC
21-11-2005, 04:32
I would suggest reading the book "Dungeon, Fire and Sword The Knights Templer In the Crusades". It gives the full story rather then just the Templer's aspect. He named it such to sell more books, not that he doesnt spend extra pages giving Templer Details. You might also note it doesnt hold back and gives the various screw ups and mistakes made by the Christians as well. This could help with drawbacks as well as bonus traits.
At least if you are serious about doing this army.

Pokpoko
21-11-2005, 15:30
i'd have no problem with it, but i'd refrain from "direct" copying-Black templars(an ideal army list if you want religious fanatics with medieval mindset;))
already use loads of malta crosses, so adding one really big maltan cross as a holy relict or what wouldn't be a problem.
however using crucified Christ or murals with "real-life" scenes would be going over the top in my opinion-keep it it themed,related(substituting Sanguinus for archangel Michel for example,when painting frescos/whatever), but not downright "real".
or do it your way,it's up to you how the amry looks like, but be prepared to defend your viewpoint/army scheme against the more...conservative amongst us players.:p

McMullet
21-11-2005, 15:38
The Ecclesiarchy seems to be (in some ways) quite liberal with regards to amalgamating existing religions into the Cult Imperialis. I'm sure they could patiently "explain" to your Crusaders that, in fact, "Jesus", the guy they worship, is in fact the Emperor. And that the "God" they worship is the Emperor's immortal consciousness in the Warp or somesuch nonsense.

EVIL INC
21-11-2005, 17:24
The Black Templers would indeed be your best army list. Just use a different paint scheme. Mix the reguler Knight Templer, Hospitaller and Tuetonic "Paint scheme" along with reguler joe knights being mixed in as the acolytes.

Karhedron
21-11-2005, 18:26
Fluffwise, Space Marines worshipping the christian definition of god is highly questionable. Sure, there are planets who worship the emperor in very different ways, but SM almost always worship the Emperor within the common rules set by the Codex Astartes.
Actually I don't think that is the case. The Space Marines worship the Emperor in highly diverse ways that reflect both the character of their Primarchs and their homeworld of origin. The individual cults of chapters are intensely private and even the Ecclesiarchy have no juristriction of how chapters choose to worship. In fact the Space Marines are one of the few tolerated sects who worship the Emperor as a man rather than a god. A great man but a man nonetheless.

Yodhrin
21-11-2005, 23:44
As others have said, it's your money, do whatever you like. Just be aware that plenty of people(me included) will not play such an army. 40K is a way to escape real life and enjoy my spare time, I dont want that ruined by Jehova's Witness Space Marines. Christianity gets shoved in my face in day to day life plenty.

brother_fandango
22-11-2005, 01:30
woa dude. no shoving going on here. nor am i a JW. just wanted to apply the "holy rage" in a real way.

EVIL INC
22-11-2005, 06:02
Making a crusader army is not nessessarily a religous statement. I would love to have such an army but I am most definately not religous in any way shape or form. Many of us are big fans of such things as the crusades because of the historical significance. Think of it as being no different then someone making an army based on Napolian or Ghengis Khan or Attilla the Hun. It is all about the History and the way we view it.

Clang
22-11-2005, 08:25
modelling-wise, this would be a great way to use all the cool new Black Templar models without ending up with yet another generic Black Templar army. And if you're going to all the trouble of designing fluff and a new colour scheme for your chapter, then personally I'd not use the Black Templar codex but something else (eg the standard codex but with options which suit your fluff?)

Yodhrin
22-11-2005, 10:19
Making a crusader army is not nessessarily a religous statement. I would love to have such an army but I am most definately not religous in any way shape or form. Many of us are big fans of such things as the crusades because of the historical significance. Think of it as being no different then someone making an army based on Napolian or Ghengis Khan or Attilla the Hun. It is all about the History and the way we view it.

Yes, and that desire for Crusaders is catered too by armies such as the Black Templars.

Armies based on real life militaries or conflicts I can just about get on with, providing your "40K-ize" them, they fit. Sports teams? Religions? No thanks.

BaronDG
22-11-2005, 15:06
I think that it is a bad idea... the reason being the similarities between our lord Jesus and the emperor. In the dystopic world of 40k the emperor IS the saviour, just as Aslan is in the chronicles of Narnia. It wouldn't be right to include them both...

EVIL INC
22-11-2005, 16:00
Yes, and that desire for Crusaders is catered too by armies such as the Black Templars.

Armies based on real life militaries or conflicts I can just about get on with, providing your "40K-ize" them, they fit. Sports teams? Religions? No thanks.
Not everyone likes to paint thier armies as they are in the codex. Doing so is often a sign of a lack of imagination. Perhaps, someone really likes the imagery and paegantry of the crusades? I certainly do and am quite a buff on it even though I am not religious at all. If anything, I am agnostic and yet I still love the Crusades. There is a difference between seeing an army painted out of the imagination and a book and seeing a person's army where they have actually put some thought into it where they make the different units from history match up with those from the game.
I have seen the pics of some sports team armies. Although they look odd, they are fully playable. Religion, that is not the issue here in the least. It is about an actual flesh and blood historical army the same as if you did one on Napolian or Zule or any number of other actual flesh and blood armies. Whether or not it is "40k ized is irrelevant. You can always invent something like for example, there is a 40k sports team that has the same colors and names as one of ours and they make enough cash to buy military equipment and become mercenaries for a planetary governer or one of our HISTORY books got lost in the warp and was found in the 40k world and the ones who found it were so impressed by the HISTORY and courage of the fighters that they started to immitate them. Or even some actual men got lost in the warp and were given futureistic military equiment to allow them to continue thier MILITARY life.

I think that it is a bad idea... the reason being the similarities between our lord Jesus and the emperor. In the dystopic world of 40k the emperor IS the saviour, just as Aslan is in the chronicles of Narnia. It wouldn't be right to include them both...
Jesus and the Christian God are not the issue here in the least and they have no part in this idea at all. Why even bother to mention them as they are totally unrelated? This is an idea to model an army on an actual flesh and blood historical army from real life.
I see no one saying anything negative when people make gaurd armies based on The Russion Red Army, why is this so? I also see nada being said about the praetorian models or Mordian models made by GW which are based on our historical armies. I have even seen armies based on our modern day military like U.S. marines (which represents a "christian" government) and so forth. No one says anything negative about them either. You are simply trying to press your religious views on others by even bringing them up and telling others that it is "bad" to create an army based upon a historical event.
Again, religion has nada to do with thius in the least. Please only bring arguments up that are relevant to the topic at hand, making an army based upon a historical army.

Besides, it is only a game. Leave such heavy things as religion out of it as they simply do not belong. History does have a place on the other hand.

Reinnon
22-11-2005, 18:11
it seems a good idea.

but, i always though that the BT were heavily based upon the crusader era....buy i haven't really studied the period (holy wars arn't really that interesting) so i wouldn't know.

go for it, make it 40K and it should be fine....wouldn't trouble me in the least

Pokpoko
22-11-2005, 18:47
Again, religion has nada to do with thius in the least.
it,in fact,has.the crusader's history and background is so tied to their religion that there are bound to be people that will find the army ofenssive.and, as ever when religion comes into play, the tempers will be likely to fly(right idiom?).it's not about christianity itself,but bringing any realworld religious items/images into the game is a idea worth reconsidering before.(not that i actually don't like the idea ;) )

Yodhrin
22-11-2005, 18:54
Besides, it is only a game. Leave such heavy things as religion out of it as they simply do not belong. History does have a place on the other hand.

Hmm, so you say that religion is not the issue, and that it should be left out, yet you would play against armies which include images of Christ painted on vehicles and banners? Of course Christianity is the "issue", it was the entire point behind my posts.

Im of the opinion that if someone wants to play a "historical" army, they should twist it to make it fit with the 40K background, both in their background and in their imagery. There is already massive scope for crusading armies in the game: Black Templars, any Chaos force on a Black Crusade, a regiment of Imperial Guard who're particularly zealous, whatever you like. Even within the limits of the Black Templars there is huge scope for imagination(by the way, I like how you attempt to equate a desire to see the background of the game maintained with being unimaginative :eyebrows: ).

As I said, personally I would not play such an army, as 40K is my hobby. I like the background that exists, and while Im all for borrowing elements of existing concepts and including them in armies, those elements should be subtle. I dont want to be reminded of day-to-day life when Im playing 40K, and I dont care how you attempt to justify it, Space Marines painted as an American Football team or whatever are daft.

I wonder if you would be so eager to defend the right to copy real imagery verbatim if I was interested in doing a Jihad army? You know, tanks with images of burning schoolbuses and "death to the infidels" in arabic on the side, maybe I could model the demo-charges in Special Weapon Squads as suicide bombers eh? Oh, but wait, that would be tasteless. Just like it's tasteless to shove your religion in someone's face constantly.

EVIL INC
22-11-2005, 19:33
If you actually do any ammount of research, you will notice that murals of Christ and so forth were not present in the battlefields of the crusades. If seeing a simple red cross on a white background is that appalling to you, you really should not be playing this game. After all, there are the Black Templers who have a white cross on a black background, why is a red one on a white background so insulting?
If you were to do a muslim army I would be glad to face it. Although, I must admit that the Imperial gaurd would be a better fit. Since they were real big on the fast/light cavelry, it would probobly need to include a lot of rough riders and use the tallern models which are already have desert muslim type uniforms. If you were to play a modern jihad army, It would look no different besides having a preponderance of light vehicles rather then cavelry and yes, they are just metal/plastic pieces with paint dabbed on them so they would not harm me in the least (unless someone thew one into my eye:p ). I would just smile all the wider as I defeated it.
As you can plainly see, religion has nothing to do with this topic whatsoever. No one is "ramming" anything down anyone's throat. (well, those who are saying to not make the army are because THEY are the ones trying to force thier view of religion on the rest of us) This is a historical topic that has nothing to do with religion so kindly leave your religious views out of the conversation just as we are.

EVIL INC
22-11-2005, 19:43
The other thread got closed even as I was typing my final responce before closing it myself. So I will post that responce here...
"Plain white paint jobs with simple red crosses on them seem to really get some people upset.:rolleyes: I hate to think what they say every time they play a black templer army. They have BLACK backgrounds with WHITE crosses on them.:rolleyes:
That is the whole point, why bring religion and politics into a simple game? We play this game to "get away from it all". Why have that ruined by someone telling you how to paint your army (or not paint) because they want to force thier religous/political views on you?
This thread was not intended toinstigate religous/political arguments, it was intended to ask you to leave those arguments out of topics that are not related. "

DrDoom
22-11-2005, 20:38
Before I get started allow me to say that I'm not Christian. But am fascinated by the crusades. I wrote several papers about the influence of the crusades on seige warfare and knightly swordsmanship in grad school.

I think such an army would look great on the table. I would swap Jesus (the actual historical and religious figure) for the primarch or the Emperor. I would paint the armor boltgun and the tabards would be white with a red aquila (or cross, whatever). I would probably claim it was a BT succession chapter and use those rules.

You can't control what other people will find offensive, if they refuse to play look for another opponent. If your army if 40K-ified enough I doubt anyone will even notice.

Freak Ona Leash
22-11-2005, 20:42
Hmm, so you say that religion is not the issue, and that it should be left out, yet you would play against armies which include images of Christ painted on vehicles and banners? Of course Christianity is the "issue", it was the entire point behind my posts.

Im of the opinion that if someone wants to play a "historical" army, they should twist it to make it fit with the 40K background, both in their background and in their imagery. There is already massive scope for crusading armies in the game: Black Templars, any Chaos force on a Black Crusade, a regiment of Imperial Guard who're particularly zealous, whatever you like. Even within the limits of the Black Templars there is huge scope for imagination(by the way, I like how you attempt to equate a desire to see the background of the game maintained with being unimaginative :eyebrows: ).

As I said, personally I would not play such an army, as 40K is my hobby. I like the background that exists, and while Im all for borrowing elements of existing concepts and including them in armies, those elements should be subtle. I dont want to be reminded of day-to-day life when Im playing 40K, and I dont care how you attempt to justify it, Space Marines painted as an American Football team or whatever are daft.

I wonder if you would be so eager to defend the right to copy real imagery verbatim if I was interested in doing a Jihad army? You know, tanks with images of burning schoolbuses and "death to the infidels" in arabic on the side, maybe I could model the demo-charges in Special Weapon Squads as suicide bombers eh? Oh, but wait, that would be tasteless. Just like it's tasteless to shove your religion in someone's face constantly.
Hm, lets try this. You dont like getting religon shoved down your throat eh? Guess what? We dont like getting atheism shoved down our throats either. Hey, if he is not allowed to have aChristian themed SM army then we should destroy all Tau armies. Tau are atheists right? ZOMG DEY HVE DIFFURNT BEELEEFZ TEHN ME!!!!1111!!!1 BUURN DEM!!!11111BBQ That is the equivilant of what you are saying right now Yodhrin. If someone cant have a religous army, then they shouldnt be able to have an atheist army either.

Pokpoko
22-11-2005, 21:11
seriously,it's not if the army is modeled after the crusaders, Muslisms,or Bhudists
it's the fact that using a real religious symbol, which holds deep meaning to many people, as a simple decorative piece.can be done,but it's tactless to say the least.drawing upon is one thing,downright copying is another.

Hlokk
22-11-2005, 21:24
I quite like this idea. I'm intending to use a lot of Christian and kaballic imagery in my space marine army (Tree of life, tree of sepiroth, eyes of jehova).

Im also having one of the characters in my inquisitorial retinue armed with a spear, containing a shard of the spear of destiny, so Im looking at how to incorporate 40k and Christianity.

I'd say go for it, loads of knights, white tabards, red crosses. Remember there was a brettonian army in WD a few months ago themes around this, it was in the battle report agains tomb kings.

At the end of the day mate, if you want to do something that conveys a religious or political view then do it. If you want to paint it that way because it looks cool then do it. ******** to anyone who doesnt like the idea, you think its cool and thats all that matters

DrDoom
22-11-2005, 21:49
Not to heap more scorn on the BT but their color scheme, black with white trim, is the colors of the hospitallers. The hospitaller were elite knights during the crusades. For whatever reason they have been overshadowed by the templars.

My point is that most people don't recognize the colors of the BT, and don't associate them with being overly christian (at least not for that reason).

brother_fandango
23-11-2005, 01:24
:eyebrows: hey everyone. just wanting to say that i didnt inted to start anyheated arguements. i just simply wanted to know if my idea was valid. i personally believe in the risen Christ, but have no intents to push it on anyone here. i personally apologize if i caused and offending to take place. Faith is big to me, and i understand if its not to anyone else. thankyou for you modeling related feedback, everyone. best to all.:eyebrows:

EVIL INC
23-11-2005, 05:30
For whatever reason they have been overshadowed by the templars.

They were a great order (well, all 3 of the big ones but I am speaking of the Hospitallers now) Many times, they made smarter decisions then the Templers (of course hindsight is 20/20:p ). The reason they are overshadowed is because of the mystery and drama of the Templers. If the Templers hadnt been so secretive and gone through such drama, they would most likely not be so famous.
Brother_Fandango, you have nothing to apologize for. In fact, I will apologize to you on behalf of those who have trodden upon your idea and the right to paint your models as you wish. I also apologize for perhaps being a little too vehemant in sticking up for you.

DrDoom
23-11-2005, 06:11
The hospitalers lacked many of the templars more fanatical anti-islamic beliefs, which usually accounts for their better decision.

I also think the Templars were more powerful during their heyday.

Brother_Fandango-- relax, you just asked a question, it was other people that got all bug-eyed about it.

EVIL INC
23-11-2005, 07:21
I dont know, early on, the Templers were rather fanatical but it wasnt very long at all that they were dealing with them (the muslims) in matter of finance and even hosting them in thier temple in Jerusalim. For a long period of time, the Shiite (spelling?) Assassins were even paying the Tempers and the Hospitallers money in order to maintain a truce. The decisions that they made that werent always smart were more in the matter of glory on the field of battle (muslims just happened to be the enemy at the time) and in thier politics. Because them and the Hospitalers disliked each other so much they would often disagree on principle.
If at all possible, read Dungeon, Fire and Sword written by John J. Robinson it is about the Knights Templer in the Crusades and it gives a full overfiew of the Crusades from everyone elses point of view as well. Not only does it give good info but it is an excellent read as well.

GAWD
23-11-2005, 17:09
When the Armageddon codex came out, I got BTs just so I could Christianize the army into 40k decendent of Crusaders. Being the nutter that I am, I wrote an extensive history of the army (now lost b/c of a hd crash this summer) that revolved around the recovery of artifacts and the conversion of my BT crusade's chaplain, who in turn went on to convert the rest of the crusade. So, my army is replete w/Christian and historical imagery (crosses, crucifix, Bibles, reliquaries, tapestries, liturgical colors, and of course treasure chests b/c our historical crusaders were in it for the bling too). The vast majority of my opponents rarely even decode the army accurately, and nobody refused to play against it (except those that got sick of losing to me :skull: ).

Actually, it's oddly offensive that someone would refuse to play the army at all, let alone equate the Crusaders w/nazis, KKK, etc... . Educate yourself about the Crusades, and I don't mean pop culture crap, which perpetuates an extremely slanted and mostly WRONG view of crusades.

The idea that you wouldn't play against a Christian 40k army is as absurd as those Christian parents who won't let their kids play 40k b/c of the demonic imagery or Jewish parents that won't their kids play Flames of War b/c of the nazis army.