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UltimateNagash
13-11-2008, 18:26
This is a basic post to show my basic ideas for a new Chaos Dwarf list. Just wondering whether people like these as ideas before I start making the actual list (as otherwise it gets all bogged down with "This unit seems out of place etc").
The X's are placeholders for where I would like to put something else in, but can't think of anything - please note that the new WoC list has got 4 Core, 7 Special and 5 Rare (not including Scyla).
So, any thoughts on this matter? Also, anyone got any preferences to how the Magic Items should be done, or what, as ideas, should be in them? Because I've got a whole heap that I've done before and are around on this site, but they're areas that are rarely commented.
So, all in all, this is a going from the ground upwards list, so it's more of a team effort but all going through my Unique-O-Matic :D

LORDS
Forge Master (Fighter)
High Priest of Hashut (Wizard)
Demonogue of Hashut (Warrior Priest-like character)

HEROES
Prince of Flames (Fighter)
Taurus Centaur (Fighter)
Priest of Hashut (Wizard)
Prophet of Hashut (Warrior Priest-like character)
Infernal Engineer (Engineer/Wizard)
Overmaster (Slavemaster)

MOUNTS
Great Taurus (Mount for Forge Master)
Lammasu (Mount for High Priest)
Palanquin (Mount for Demonogue)
Taurus (Mount for Forge Master, High Priest, Prince or Priest)
Juggernaut (Mount for Forge Master, Prince or Infernal Engineer)

CORE
Chaos Dwarf Warriors (Dwarf light infantry)
Chaos Dwarf Destroyers (armed with blunderbusses)
X
Slaves of Hashut (generic slaves)
Slave Wagon (cross between Corpse Cart and Warshrine of Chaos)

SPECIAL
Immortals (Dwarf heavy infantry)
Slaver Team (skirmishing Chaos Dwarfs)
Destructive Engine (New version of Tenderiser and Whirlwind)
Chaos Dwarf Ballisters (weapon teams)
Mancrushers (golem)
Death Rocket (war machine)
Bull Centaurs (heavy cavalry)

RARE
Krag Riders (Chaos Dwarfs riding Juggernauts)
X
Hellcannon (war machine)
Earthshaker (war machine)
Kolossus (giant-like)

Condottiere
13-11-2008, 18:34
What happened to the Hobgoblins?

UltimateNagash
13-11-2008, 18:39
a) I dislike them rules wise. They're almost identical to normal Goblins, except not afraid of Elves
b) Generic slaves can easily represent Hobgoblins, because they're going to have a mostly human statline (with low Leadership).
c) I just dislike them background wise...

Condottiere
13-11-2008, 18:53
Just curious.

UltimateNagash
13-11-2008, 19:23
Well, that's the reason. Expect a basic list tonight/tomorrow (depending on when get an annoying piece of coursework done)... ;)

UltimateNagash
14-11-2008, 14:32
Right, well, here's a small framework piece I've done, including characters and some other little bits.
Note I have dropped Bull Centaur Heroes now - unit champions will be able to get magic items, but I was never too comfortable with BC heroes anyway...

Sunshine
17-11-2008, 03:30
I have been doing some small pieces of work if you are interested in reading them.

As some back story, i am a historian of the Mediterranean (especially Rome) but i have done alot of study of Ancient Persia (from the time of the Persian Wars 500- 497).

I also collect Dwarfs, so i would like to think that i have a good idea of how the Chaos Dwarfs should operate as an army theme.

Firstly, Fire and Metal should be the magic lores of the Chaos Dwarfs, because Zoroastrianism places a great importance upon fire and metal is in the dwarfish theme.

Also, Spears are a great way of adding in the Persian theme while at the same time reinforcing that these are not just 'evil dwarfs'. They use weapons and methods which would be unthinkable to a normal Dwarf.

And thus, the ideas.

Chaos Dwarf Overlord:
The Overlord is the chosen general of any Chaos Dwarf Expedition. The Magi place their approval in a strong candidate and gift him with magical trinkets which all but assure his victory.

Name Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
Overlord 3 8 5 4 4 3 4 4 10

Great Magus
The Magi are the sorcerors of the Chaos Dwarfs infernal realms. They are the leaders, the creators and the priests. They embrace raw magic without the trappings of Runes that their weak cousins use.
Name Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
Great Magi 3 5 4 4 5 3 3 2 10

Special Rules:

Through Fire, Metal and Daemons.

Magi and Great Magi may take spells from the fire and Metal spell lores, they may choose how many rolls to make on either spell lore, rather than choose a single one.

Heroes

Magus
Name Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
Magi 3 5 4 4 4 2 2 2 9

Special Rules:

Through Fire, Metal and Daemons.

Magi and Great Magi may take spells from the fire and Metal spell lores, they may choose how many rolls to make on either spell lore, rather than choose a single one.

Infernal Sculpter
The Infernal Sculpter is a forgeworker, a toiler, he fashions the massive Golems and weapons of war and imbues them with Daemonic energy and life. His maddened rituals give an additional spark of life when near to the Dark Metal Creatures.
Name Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
Sculpter 3 5 5 4 4 2 3 2 9

Special Rules:

Metal Mind: All Infernal Machines within 12” of an Infernal Sculpter may use his leadership for their Stupidity rolls.

Sculpter:

Bound Spell: Power Level 4. Gives 1 unit with the ‘Infernal Machine’ special rule regeneration until the Chaos Dwarfs next Magic Phase.

In units with multiple types (Such as Overlord on Great Taurus) only the Infernal Machines gain the regeneration.

Slave Master
Slave Masters are a common sight in Chaos Dwarf expeditions. They lead their charges through fear of the whip and motivate them. They are also highly efficient fighters in themselves.
Name Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
Slavemaster 4 5 4 4 4 2 4 2 9
Weapons: Whip (may fight from the rear rank)

Special Rule:

Fear the Lash: Any unit the Slavemaster joins becomes Stubborn on the Slavemasters Ld. The units take D3 casualties when they make a Panic, Terror or Break Test.

Slavemasters give their Ld to a unit, no matter where they are in it.

Mounts

Great Taurus
The Great Taurus is a mighty beast. Its Clanging metallic form is terrible in its power, smashing whole units aside from its Metallic flanks on the charge.
Name Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
Taurus 7 4 0 6 5 4 3 2 6

Special Rules:

Large Target, Terror, Infernal Machine’

Charger:

When on the Charge, The Great Taurus has D6 Impact hits at S6 and also gains +3 attacks.

Core

Chaos Dwarf Warriors
The basic troop of the Chaos Dwarfs, their warriors are powerful and tough fighters. Their wicked spears ripping through enemy units as they attempt to close and their Heavy armour stopping all but the strongest of attacks.
Name Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
Warriors 3 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 9
Weapons: Heavy armour, Spears

Slaves
Taken from all over the world, Slaves are frequently used as bait, as sacrifices and as target practice.
Name Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
Slaves 4 2 2 3 3 1 3 1 4

Special Rules:

Rabble:
Slaves are easily frightened when they have no guiding hand with them (with a lash to back it up). Slaves must take a panic check if they take a single Casualty.

But any Chaos Dwarf unit is allowed to shoot into a combat which involves enemy units and only Slaves. The shots are randomised like normal.

Special

Mancrusher Golems
Whirring and Clanking, these massive metal monstrosities are a sight to behold as arrows skip from their Steel bodies. Using their huge limbs as battering rams, they can crush their way through men and even heavily armoured Knights fear their Hammer blows.

Name Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
Golem 5 3 0 5 5 3 1 3 6

Special Rules:
Stupidity, Frenzy, Infernal Machine

Immortals
The Personal Guard of the Overlords, the Immortals are feared across the land. It is said that beneath their Dark shimmering armour there is nothing anymore but the soul of what once was. Whatever the case is, the Immortals are supremely difficult to kill and masterful with their spears.

Name Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
Immortal 3 5 2 4 4 1 2 2 9
Life Taker 3 5 2 4 4 1 2 3 9
Weapons: Dark Armour (4+), Shield, Spear

Special Rules:

Everliving.
Immortals have a 5+ ward save.

Destructive Engine:
The Destructive engine is a horrible machine, one which only a broken mind could dream of. It is a massive construct upon wheels, which has an uncountable number of spinning axes, swords, rusted chains and other detritus. It is slowely pushed forward into and through enemy units, cleaving them asunder and rending them apart.
Name Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
Engine 5 2 0 6 7 4 6 10 -
Keepers 5 4 0 3 4 1 2 1 9
Unit is a single Destructive Engine and 5 Keepers.

Special rules:

The Destructive engine only ever chases a unit D6 inches. It only has 5 attacks against units in the flanks and no attacks against units attacking from the rear.

Rare

Krag Riders
Some Chaos Dwarfs are rich enough to afford a personal mount. The Infernal Sculpters invariably give these greedy Dwarfs a massive Juggernaught. These huge beasts are capable of delivering blows which would crush buildings, let alone kill mortals.
Name Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
Rider 3 5 3 4 4 1 2 2 9
Champion 3 5 3 4 4 1 2 3 9
Juggernaught 7 5 0 5 4 1 2 2 7
Wargear: The Riders are wearing Heavy armour and have spears and Shields

Special Rules:

Fear, Magic resistance (1), Brass behemoth


***

So thats it so far. I hope you like it!

UltimateNagash
17-11-2008, 10:37
A couple of things:
a) I was including long poles in Chaos Dwarfs, but for them I thought Halberds seemed more appropriate than Spears. More offensive, and also gives Halberds a chance ;)
b) Great Taurus shouldn't be a machine (old fluff states it used to be a Chaos Dwarf)
c) On the Magic: Hashut has gifted their Sorcerers with power over flame and darkness. It's the Engineers who actually daemonbind stuff (in my mind anyway). Plus it makes sense - lets the Sorcerers concentrate on ruling, and letting underlings daemonbind. Also, I really don't think they're that powerful Sorcerers; they are just Dwarfs gifted with the art of magic.
Cheers for your thoughts

Sunshine
17-11-2008, 21:20
a) I was including long poles in Chaos Dwarfs, but for them I thought Halberds seemed more appropriate than Spears. More offensive, and also gives Halberds a chance

I Disagree, though. A Dwarf would not ever be able to use a Halberd, their stature just wouldnt allow them to swing it.

Also, the Halberd was never a real weapon in history. It was a tool for Guarding. A sign of a position, not really a weapon as it was found in war when units just couldnt use them at all.

Spears, though, fit the Persian background as well as being plausible for a Dwarf to use.


b) Great Taurus shouldn't be a machine (old Fluff states it used to be a Chaos Dwarf)

I think some fluff has to be changed (also, its the Lammasu which used to be a Chaos Dwarf if memory serves.) The Great Taurus sounds like the Cretan Giant Bull which Herakles captured to fulfill his seventh labour. I think a mechanical version of this (a Giant Juggernaught, really) would suit the Overseers mount.


c) On the Magic: Hashut has gifted their Sorcerers with power over flame and darkness. It's the Engineers who actually daemonbind stuff (in my mind anyway). Plus it makes sense - lets the Sorcerers concentrate on ruling, and letting underlings daemonbind. Also, I really don't think they're that powerful Sorcerers; they are just Dwarfs gifted with the art of magic.

The Sorcerors would have to have some kind of connection with Daemons, they may not Daemonbind, but that would probably be where they get some of their power from.

I dont think they are That powerful either, i just think every wizard should get something different. The Chaos Dwarfs get 2 Magic Lores to choose from, rather than 1.

UltimateNagash
18-11-2008, 07:30
I Disagree, though. A Dwarf would not ever be able to use a Halberd, their stature just wouldnt allow them to swing it.

Also, the Halberd was never a real weapon in history. It was a tool for Guarding. A sign of a position, not really a weapon as it was found in war when units just couldnt use them at all.
And realism works in a fantasy game - the fact is, what they use doesn't have to be as long as a human sized halberd, or anything. It could well be a light two handed axe with a spike on the end, ie, a mini great weapon.
I don't actually think realism is an issue, plus of course they could swing it, provided it was designed for them...
Also, they're a slaver armies, and spears are a defensive weapon. Doesn't really fit like that...

I think some fluff has to be changed (also, its the Lammasu which used to be a Chaos Dwarf if memory serves.) The Great Taurus sounds like the Cretan Giant Bull which Herakles captured to fulfill his seventh labour. I think a mechanical version of this (a Giant Juggernaught, really) would suit the Overseers mount.
From what I understand, they both are, except the Lammasu retains more CDish-ness, while a Great Taurus has become more like Hashut.
Also, I don't like the idea of a mechanical flying unit. Not on flapping wings...

I dont think they are That powerful either, i just think every wizard should get something different. The Chaos Dwarfs get 2 Magic Lores to choose from, rather than 1.
Do other Wizards have something different like that? No... Just because you think they should doesn't mean they should, especially when it's done in no other army book.
Except Lizardmen, because Slann are masters of magic...

Gazak Blacktoof
18-11-2008, 13:50
Do other Wizards have something different like that? No... Just because you think they should doesn't mean they should, especially when it's done in no other army book.
Except Lizardmen, because Slann are masters of magic...

That's a poor argument against anything in my opinion. There are very few rules that are carried from one book to another, its what makes warhammer armies as diverse as they are. Some rules are hard to remember or funk with game mechanics too much but this one seems fitting and is easy to use.


You're at a purely conceptual stage here so don't throw spears or halberds out just yet, you can try both on the table top and as an art concept and see whether there's room for both of them in the list. Spears with metal hafts and evil looking blades seem appropriate to me. Hell, if you're going to have "immortals" why not have a ceremonial weapon that can be wielded as either.

UltimateNagash
18-11-2008, 15:49
That's a poor argument against anything in my opinion. There are very few rules that are carried from one book to another, its what makes warhammer armies as diverse as they are. Some rules are hard to remember or funk with game mechanics too much but this one seems fitting and is easy to use.
Yes, but why should they get something no other race can do, yet is part of the fundamental rules?
Personally, Daemonbinding is going to be encapsulated within the Lore of Hashut, and the Prophets of Hashut (as you can already tell).

You're at a purely conceptual stage here so don't throw spears or halberds out just yet, you can try both on the table top and as an art concept and see whether there's room for both of them in the list. Spears with metal hafts and evil looking blades seem appropriate to me. Hell, if you're going to have "immortals" why not have a ceremonial weapon that can be wielded as either.
Now that sounds cool:
Ceremonial Blade
At the start of each combat, you may choose to use this weapon either as a halberd or a spear.
But a model with this wouldn't have a hand weapon or shield option - otherwise player's would just go for that...

Gazak Blacktoof
18-11-2008, 16:33
If you're going to insert a daemonology lore then that's fine too but I think Sunshine's idea was great. Almost all wizards have some sort of special rule or special lore (or both).

UltimateNagash
18-11-2008, 17:08
WoC: No special rules. Unique Lores
DE: Special rule (justified because of background). Unique Lore
DoC: No special rules. Unique Lores
VC: No special rules. Unique Lore
HE: Special rule (justified because of background). Unique Lore
Emp: No special rules. No unique Lore
O&G: Special rule (not really justified). Unique Lores
Dwf: No special rules. No unique Lore
WE: No special rules. Unique Lore
OK: Special rules (justified because of unique method of use). Unique Lore
Bret: No special rules. No unique Lore
Skv: Special rule (justified because of background). Unique Lore
TK: Special rules (justified because of unique method of use and background). Unique Lore
Few actually have any special rules
6/13 have Special Rule(s), and 10/13 have Unique Lore(s). And really they all have a reason behind them. It's really iffy for me to do something like that - if it was something actually characterful it would be different, but I don't think anyone but Slann (and other really high powered Wizards) should be able to mix and match Lores...

Gazak Blacktoof
18-11-2008, 19:16
Not sure about those lists.

VC certainly have special rules- multi-casting spells.

OnG generate or lose dice depending on combat fleeing troops

I also had a feeling that both wood elves and brets got rules to do with woods. Wood elves obviously get tree singing.

Including dwarfs in there is going to skew any numbers pertaining to magic casters.

Its your project but I still agree with Sunshine's position.

Lastly there's not enough background to create a new and exciting list for chaos dwarfs (which is what I assume you're trying to do) without stretching what's there or making stuff up. But at the heart of existing chaos dwarf material are the forges and fiery bulls.

Sunshine
19-11-2008, 02:05
And realism works in a fantasy game - the fact is, what they use doesn't have to be as long as a human sized halberd, or anything. It could well be a light two handed axe with a spike on the end, ie, a mini great weapon.
I don't actually think realism is an issue, plus of course they could swing it, provided it was designed for them...
Also, they're a slaver armies, and spears are a defensive weapon. Doesn't really fit like that...

Spears are not defensive weapons. Both Hoplites and lighter Infantry like Persian levies used spears and they were both offensive AND defensive troopers.



From what I understand, they both are, except the Lammasu retains more CDish-ness, while a Great Taurus has become more like Hashut.
Also, I don't like the idea of a mechanical flying unit. Not on flapping wings...

As you may see, i removed the Wings :P.

I dont think Wings suit any Chaos Dwarf except the Lammasu.

The Lammasu, interestingly, doesnt really have Chaos Dwarfishness at all. It is copied and pasted, in name AND look from the Persian Lammasu.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Lammasu.jpg/300px-Lammasu.jpg

(I love this relief, by the way, its so much more impressive in person, much like most Persian Art. If you go to the British Museum, they have a few pieces in there which are incredible, and i think they have a pair of Life sized Lammasu there if i remember correctly!)


Do other Wizards have something different like that? No... Just because you think they should doesn't mean they should, especially when it's done in no other army book.
Except Lizardmen, because Slann are masters of magic...

You may not be intending to do so, but you are sounding rather elitist here. I am putting forward ideas since the Chaos Dwarfs dont have much of a background, i would rather start from Scratch and give them a really nice mixture of Persian society and Dwarfishness.



You're at a purely conceptual stage here so don't throw spears or halberds out just yet, you can try both on the table top and as an art concept and see whether there's room for both of them in the list. Spears with metal hafts and evil looking blades seem appropriate to me. Hell, if you're going to have "immortals" why not have a ceremonial weapon that can be wielded as either.

Well i love the idea of 3+ save Dwarfen Infantry with spears.

Also, i like spears since that was what the Immortals were armed with in life.

For some background (i may be wrong on some counts, it has been awhile) the Persian Immortals were the bodyguard of the Persian King within wartime (Outside of battle, he had a number of bodyguards who names escape me but translated they mean 'spear bearer' and 'Bow Bearer'.) The Kings personal Bodyguard of Immortals were 10,000 strong in a single unit (that boggles the mind when i think about it) They had light armour and robes, a shield and a Weighted spear and a bow.

They were named Immortals since as soon as a man was killed he was replaced, thus the Immortals never had less than 10,000 members.

http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ugk/relief03.jpg


Yes, but why should they get something no other race can do, yet is part of the fundamental rules?
Personally, Daemonbinding is going to be encapsulated within the Lore of Hashut, and the Prophets of Hashut (as you can already tell).

So you are giving them their own lore? Is that really necessary? Almost no armies use the Lores from the Rulebook.


Ceremonial Blade
At the start of each combat, you may choose to use this weapon either as a halberd or a spear.
But a model with this wouldn't have a hand weapon or shield option - otherwise player's would just go for that...

Interesting, im still not sure if i like it, though. Halberds just seem unwieldy in such a unit.

[quote]
Its your project but I still agree with Sunshine's position.

Lastly there's not enough background to create a new and exciting list for chaos dwarfs (which is what I assume you're trying to do) without stretching what's there or making stuff up. But at the heart of existing chaos dwarf material are the forges and fiery bulls./quote]

Thank you :)

I agree with what you say. I think the Chaos Dwarfs need more than just some new rules. They really need a shift in focus and ideas in their background.

More Mechanical Monstrosities and less Mutation would be nice (of course keep the Lammasu and the Bull Centaurs, but i think the Mechanical Taurus [with perhaps a special character on a Daemon Taurus, not mechanical!] and others need to be placed into character.

Basically:

- Persian view of warriors
- Technology gone mad
- Daemonic Embuement.

The 3 mean things of the Chaos Dwarfs.

UltimateNagash
19-11-2008, 11:16
VC certainly have special rules- multi-casting spells.
I got one wrong

OnG generate or lose dice depending on combat fleeing troops
Yeah, did say that...

I also had a feeling that both wood elves and brets got rules to do with woods. Wood elves obviously get tree singing.
As spell 1... and Brets don't get anything, because they're human. Only one who has anything special is the Fey Enchantress...

Spears are not defensive weapons. Both Hoplites and lighter Infantry like Persian levies used spears and they were both offensive AND defensive troopers.
Yes, maybe IRL, but Fantasy spears have defensive rules, and therefore, make the unit defensive...

As you may see, i removed the Wings :P.
I skim read it, and it didn't grasp me. Ideas to me need to make sense background wise, and grab me...

I dont think Wings suit any Chaos Dwarf except the Lammasu.
I know this a fan project, but I don't want to give people useless models... Plus also, I like the Great Taurus, but maybe change it to what is again to a Greater Daemon (note that it is not one though, just on a similar power level, but slightly lower tier)

(I love this relief, by the way, its so much more impressive in person, much like most Persian Art. If you go to the British Museum, they have a few pieces in there which are incredible, and i think they have a pair of Life sized Lammasu there if i remember correctly!)
Sounds good, and have been meaning to go again. Over Christmas period (when I say Christmas though, I mean to Feb :D 5 week break :p)

You may not be intending to do so, but you are sounding rather elitist here.
On this bit of the forum, I am. Because if I don't you'll see ideas for flying chipmunk divebombers and robotic elephants with hellcannons built into them...
Sorry, but that's how it works. Keep the crazy in ;)


Chaos Dwarf Warriors
Equipment: Halberd, heavy armour.
* May replace halberd with one of the following:
* Spear for +1 pt per model.
* Great weapon for +2 pts per model.
* Blunderbuss for +X pts per model.

* May be given shields for +1 pt per model.


So you are giving them their own lore? Is that really necessary? Almost no armies use the Lores from the Rulebook.
Sure they do - lots can, but many choose not to. Plus, CD had their own Lore in 5th, so why should they loose it? The people who don't have Lores now didn't have Lores before...

Also, I'm not making SC this time...

Oh, and personally, this is what I imagine a CD army to look like:

---------------------------------------------------------
¶ ¶
¶ ¶
¶ Slaves ¶
¶ ¶
¶ ¶
---------------------------------------------------------

-------- -------- -------- --------
¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶
¶ CD ¶ ¶ CD ¶ ¶ CD ¶ ¶ CD ¶
¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶
-------- -------- -------- --------

-------- -------- --------
¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶
¶ WM ¶ ¶ WM ¶ ¶ WM ¶
¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶
-------- -------- --------
Masses of slaves, with some support units and stuff. I'm not actually a huge fan of Bull Centaurs, but I'm including them because they're an old unit...

Sunshine
19-11-2008, 11:33
Yes, maybe IRL, but Fantasy spears have defensive rules, and therefore, make the unit defensive...

They can still charge like any other unit. They also have a good chance of holding for more than 1 turn and fighting in 2 ranks in the second turn of combat. It is one of the few weapons which get better after the first round of combat.



I skim read it, and it didn't grasp me. Ideas to me need to make sense background wise, and grab me...

Well im sorry i didnt explain well enough.

Basically, i believe the Great Taurus should simply be a giant Mechanical bull, no wings, nothing like that, a Massive bull (Stegadon sized) imbued with the power of a Daemon.



I know this a fan project, but I don't want to give people useless models... Plus also, I like the Great Taurus, but maybe change it to what is again to a Greater Daemon (note that it is not one though, just on a similar power level, but slightly lower tier)

There could be abother way of including a flying Taurus. But i dont like Chaos Dwarfs having mutants or unbound daemons. Their power should come through their machines.



On this bit of the forum, I am. Because if I don't you'll see ideas for flying chipmunk divebombers and robotic elephants with hellcannons built into them...
Sorry, but that's how it works. Keep the crazy in

You can say its a bad idea forcefully, but not like that.


Sure they do - lots can, but many choose not to. Plus, CD had their own Lore in 5th, so why should they loose it? The people who don't have Lores now didn't have Lores before...

Also, I'm not making SC this time...

Did they? What spells did they have?



Oh, and personally, this is what I imagine a CD army to look like:

Not all Chaos Dwarf armies should have masses of slaves. They should be a useful unit on their own, but not so you have to take hundreds of them.

UltimateNagash
19-11-2008, 13:20
They can still charge like any other unit. They also have a good chance of holding for more than 1 turn and fighting in 2 ranks in the second turn of combat. It is one of the few weapons which get better after the first round of combat.
As I said in previous post, halberd standard with spear upgrade at minor cost?

Well im sorry i didnt explain well enough.

Basically, i believe the Great Taurus should simply be a giant Mechanical bull, no wings, nothing like that, a Massive bull (Stegadon sized) imbued with the power of a Daemon.
See, then it's pretty much a bigger Juggernaut...

There could be abother way of including a flying Taurus. But i dont like Chaos Dwarfs having mutants or unbound daemons. Their power should come through their machines.
No, I don't want them having unbound Daemons, and I dislike Bull Centaurs...
Personally, I think we could drop out both Lammasu and Great Taurus, but only if we also threw away the Bull Centaurs. Then they would be left with the religious driving force of the Priests and Prophets, and the forge machinations of everyone else. Oh, and slaves shielding them from the enemy...

You can say its a bad idea forcefully, but not like that.
Yeah, I can be a git... Sorry

Did they? What spells did they have?
See here... (http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chaos_Dwarf_Magic) Like the others, it was a long list, and personally, I would like to have the following in:

Basic spell, something Daemonbinding

Doomroar - Same rules as the Lore of Slaanesh spell Hellshriek

Eruption - Area affect, or maybe works like a stone thrower (something like the Lore of Nurgle spell Plague Squall)?

Shadows of Hashut - The Lore of Fire spell, The Burning Head, but not Flaming

Ash Cloud - Some form of protection spell, maybe mixed in with some protection?

----

Fist of Fire - Generic CD rule now, giving all CD Flaming Attacks

Flaming Hide - Included in Prophet rules

Sorcerer's Curse - Put into a Magic Item with a Bound Spell, causes a random effect, something like this:
1-2) The unit has -1 M and I
3-5) The unit has -1 M
6) The unit has -1 M, WS, BS and I, but gain +1 T.
They can add together, and kill anyone whose M is reduced to 0.

---

And here's some old ideas:

Something that increases close combat attacks on characters and champions

Ash Cloud
Cast on 6+
By showering the enemy with dirt, a dark cloud of swirling energy that blinds the sorcerer's enemies and disrupting their movement.
This spell may be cast on a single enemy unit within 24'' of the caster. If successfully cast, the target must pass a Strength test (using the lowest Strength if there is more than value in the unit) or it may not move or shoot until the following friendly Magic phase.

Doomroar
Cast on 7+
Calling on the power of Hashut, the sorcerer bellows with a rage untapped, causing those nearby to flee.
All enemy units within 18'' must take a Panic test.

Eruption
Cast on 8+
Chanting the nine Words of Burning that are written within sacred texts of Hashut, the sorcerer causes the very ground itself to split open and erupt flames.
Choose a target unit exactly as if you were firing a stone thrower (guessing range from the caster himself) and roll for scatter. Once the location of the hit is determined, place the large template with the central hole over that point. If a Misfire is rolled then instead place the large template over the caster himself. Every unit touched by the template takes D6 Strength 5 flaming hits, with no armour save allowed. This can affect friendly units and units in combat.

Possession of Hashut
Cast on 9+
When powerful sorcerers give themselves to Hashut, they gain a small measure of his power. Sometimes that power leaks into machinery, causing it to fall to the sorcerers will. In battle, this power is trained on the Dawi-Zharr's enemies machines, causing them to rampage out of their crews control.
This spell may be cast on a single enemy war machine within 12'' of the caster. If successfully cast, you may immediately fire the war machine as if it was your own, even if it couldn't normally fire. This spell can only be cast once on each war machine in a single Magic Phase.

Decay of the World
Cast on 11+
By calling upon the darkness and destruction of Hashut, the sorcerer transfers their curse onto the enemies weapon, turning them to stone, before shattering as they strike.
This spell may be cast on a single enemy unit within 18'' of the caster. If successful, that unit's weapon effects are negated, and they are all treated as being armed with a single hand weapon. They may not claim on the hand weapon and shield bonus. A unit with missile weapons may not shoot them for the rest of the battle. War machines and magic weapons are unaffected by this spell.


Not all Chaos Dwarf armies should have masses of slaves. They should be a useful unit on their own, but not so you have to take hundreds of them.
No, but slaves are used for two main things in battle:
Transporting and moving war machines etc
As cannon fodder for the much less numerous CD
Slaves should be an option in CD armies to be used to bulk up their own forces, and provide them with massive screens...

Gazak Blacktoof
19-11-2008, 15:56
As I remember it the shadows of hashut spell went all the way to a board edge and caused things to panic as a shadow passed over them. I'm not sure what hell shriek does.

UltimateNagash
19-11-2008, 16:00
Shadows of Hashut I think did go to the table edge, but that and panic seems too powerful. Either to board edge or panic, and I think panic seems better and more fair as well...

Hellshriek:

All enemy units within 18'' must take a Panic test.

Also, here's my starting ideas for Magic Items...

grumbaki
19-11-2008, 22:39
MAGIC WEAPONS

Obsidian Blade 65 Points
Background
The Obsidian Blade ignores Armour saves. If a model suffers any unsaved wounds from this weapon, their armour and/or shields are automatically destroyed (including any magic armour and/or shield).

Ignore armor saves, 50pts. So 15pts to destroy any armor/shields? A very nasty weapon, but only useful against characters. Not bad at all, I'd gladly use it in any list.

Black Hammer of Hashut 40 Points
Background
Confers +2 Strength. Flammable targets taking one or more wounds from this weapon are automatically slain.

Way too powerful. In the dwarf list, +1 str costs 20 pts. So basically this auto kill against treemen and tomb kings is free. I'd much rather just give it the flamable ability.

Daemon's Breath 35 points
When the trigger of this blunderbuss is pulled, a portion of a daemons might is unleashed upon the world again.
This is a Strength 5 breath weapon.

A very nice weapon, perfect for a hobgoblin hero on a wolf. But as it is daemon powered, I'd say that on the roll of a 1 on a d6 the user takes a str 5 hit from the daemon trapped inside. That would offset the low cost.

The Slaver's Chain 30 points
The Slaver's Chain is an enchanted chain, binding those wrapped in it to the service of its wielder, clouding their minds with thoughts of loyalty to that who wields it.
Great weapon. All enemy models in base contact with the model lose the Always Strike First rule (if they have it) and always strike last.

Ah, the anti High Elf/Slaanesh item. Not bad, as the user will probably only be fighting with a basic str of 4.

Axe of Brass Mayhem 25 points
Many a foolish slave has met their end beneath this axe, each death momentarily quenching it's hunger.
This weapon has the Killing Blow special rule.

25pts for killing blow sounds right.

MAGIC ARMOUR

Duerkarís Breastplate 60 points
This ancient suit of blackened bronze armour protected its original owner form countless assassination attempts, until he was turned to stone by Sorcerers of Zharr-Naggrund.
This daemon armour grants the wearer Regeneration. Killing Blow and/or Poisoned Attacks have no additional effect against the wearer.

So 45pts for regeneration, 15pts for the rune of preservation. Sounds good to me. Just add in that it gives a basic 5+ armor save (heavy armor) and it seems right to me.

Obsidian Armour 45 Points
Background
The wearer has a 3+ armour save that may be combined with a shield, and Magic Resistance (2). In addition, the wearer has a 4+ ward save against magical attacks.

Pretty powerful. With a shield (2pts extra), that is a 1+ armor save, and 4+ against most characters and magic resistance 2, all for 47 points. I'd say either up the cost, or drop the magic resistance (or just make it magic resistance 1).

Armour of the Furnace 35 points
This pitch black armour has been enchanted to withstand even the greatest heat, tempered to defend against blow.
The wearer has a 4+ armour save that may be combined with a shield, and a 5+ ward save. In addition, the wearer is immune to flaming attacks.

A good item and appropriately priced. For a dwarf, this would cost exactly 35points, so it looks good to me.

Armour of Gazrakh 25 points
Bound with stolen runes of gromril, and bound within an obsidian shell, this armour affords great protection.
This armour gives the wearer a 1+ armour save that cannot be improved.

Nothing wrong with it. Good.

Bull Helm 25 points
A great symbol of the authority of the wearer, this helm is only gifted to a chosen few, those who have proved their loyalty to Zharr Naggrund time and again.
This helm confers a 6+ armour save which can be combined with armour, shield, etc. Models within 6" of the wearer can use the models Leadership as if he were the general. If the model is the general, the range to lend his Leadership is 18" instead of 12".

I really like it. Very cool.

TALISMANS

Talisman of Obsidian 65 Points
Background
The model with the Talisman of Obsidian has Magic Resistance (3) and a 3+ ward save against magical attacks.

A true anti-assassination tool.

Black Gem of Gnar 50 points
This pitch-black gem contains a powerful spell of translocation, banishing mortals to a shadowed realm of utter darkness until the enchantment ends.
The Gem can be activated at the beginning of any close combat phase, after challenges are issued and accepted or rejected. The bearer and one model of the bearerís choice in base contact are removed from the fight and my not strike blows, nor can they be attacked in any way for the duration of that close combat phase. Work out combat results as normal. Roll a dice every time you use this item. On the roll of a 1-3 it runs out of power and cannot be used again for the rest of the game.

This is way too powerful...I can see it being as overused as Van Horstman's Speculum. Give it to a hobgoblin hero and put him in a unit of immortals. Run him up against Archaon and get a free win. Then just beat the enemy unit with combat resolution. I'd say take this out of the list or really re-work it.

ARCANE ITEMS

Chalice of Darkness 35 points
(Priests and High Priests only)
When one properly schooled in the arts of the priesthood drinks from the vile, tarry liquid in this ornate goblet, the winds of magic die down, leaving all wizards helpless.
At the beginning of either playerís Magic Phase, you may roll D3 and remove that many dice from both sides Power or Dispel dice pools. Note that you may choose to take Power Dice from the main pool or from individual wizards. The owner of the dice chooses which dice are removed.

Very interesting. I really like it, especially because it hurts all sides involved.

ENCHANTED ITEMS

Wrath of the Bull 45 Points
Background
Instead of making his normal attacks for that round, the wielder of the Wrath of the Bull may choose to inflict a Strength 10 hit on every model in base contact. These hits have the Killing Blow special rule.

Cool.

Stone Heart 40 Points
Background
Bound Spell, Power Level 3. The Stone Heart contains a spell which can be cast on a enemy unit within 18". They must immediately roll on the following table. These last for the rest of the battle. If a models Movement is reduced to 0 by this, the model is immediately slain.
D6 Roll Stone Heart
1-2 Stone Legs. The unit has -1 Movement and Initiative
3-5 Stone Feet. The unit has -1 Movement
6 Stone Muscles. The unit has -1 Movement, Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill and Initiative, but gain +1 Toughness.

Uhm...lasts for the entire battle? Against an army likes dwarfs, this can take a unit down to M2 for an entire game. Even with +1 toughness, that is game breaking. I'd say make it last until the beginning of the next chaos dwarf magic phase. That way it only takes a unit out for 1 turn.

Talons of Hashut 35 Points
Background
Bound Spell, Power Level 4. These gauntlets contain a spell which can only be cast on the bearer. Until the end of the turn, the bearer may not wield any weapons, but gains +2 Strength, Initiative and Attacks.

Like the Skaven bands of power. Cool, when it goes off.

Lens of the Dark Lands 30 Points
An arcane lens, this telescope can pick out any foe, no matter the distance.
The Chaos Dwarf, and any unit he joins have +1 Ballistic Skill.

The unit too? I just don't see how that would work. Maybe something like the character being able to pick any target he wishes to shoot and that foe not getting a look out sir roll? I just don't get why a telescope would increase the ballistic skill of the entire unit.

Gauntlets of Hashut 25 Points
Background
Bound Spell, Power Level 4. These gauntlets contains a magic missile with range 24", causing D6 Strength 4 flaming hits.

Standard face smacking spell. Good.

Soul Stealing Orb 20 points
This orb catches the dying breathes of all nearby, empowering it's bearer in their agony.
If a model is killed within 18" of the bearer, the bearer may re-roll all his failed to wound rolls until the end of the turn.

18'' is a huge distance. Maybe if it is "if a model is killed by the user or any model within his unit, then the bearer may re-roll all failed to wound rolls during his next close combat phase."

Gauntlets of Bazhrakk the Cruel 15 Points
Background
The model has +1 Strength. If the wielder rolls a 1 to hit, it strikes a friendly model in base contact (roll to wound etc as normal).

Glad to see that this item would stay in the list!

---------

Overall, I like the list. A few items I made some suggestions for though. Looking good.

UltimateNagash
19-11-2008, 23:46
MAGIC WEAPONS

Obsidian Blade 65 Points
Background
The Obsidian Blade ignores Armour saves. If a model suffers any unsaved wounds from this weapon, their armour and/or shields are automatically destroyed (including any magic armour and/or shield).

Ignore armor saves, 50pts. So 15pts to destroy any armor/shields? A very nasty weapon, but only useful against characters. Not bad at all, I'd gladly use it in any list.

Black Hammer of Hashut 40 Points
Background
Confers +2 Strength. Flammable targets taking one or more wounds from this weapon are automatically slain.

Way too powerful. In the dwarf list, +1 str costs 20 pts. So basically this auto kill against treemen and tomb kings is free. I'd much rather just give it the flamable ability.
These two are both just five points cheaper than before (see here (http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/assets/Chaos_Dwarfs.pdf)) and the only other difference is a slight rewording (but no actual change in effect). Therefore I think it's fine they get slightly cheaper

Daemon's Breath 35 points
When the trigger of this blunderbuss is pulled, a portion of a daemons might is unleashed upon the world again.
This is a Strength 5 breath weapon.

A very nice weapon, perfect for a hobgoblin hero on a wolf. But as it is daemon powered, I'd say that on the roll of a 1 on a d6 the user takes a str 5 hit from the daemon trapped inside. That would offset the low cost.
Personally, I'm shying away from Hobgoblins completely.

The Slaver's Chain 30 points
The Slaver's Chain is an enchanted chain, binding those wrapped in it to the service of its wielder, clouding their minds with thoughts of loyalty to that who wields it.
Great weapon. All enemy models in base contact with the model lose the Always Strike First rule (if they have it) and always strike last.

Ah, the anti High Elf/Slaanesh item. Not bad, as the user will probably only be fighting with a basic str of 4.
They will be - the only way to augment that further is to use some form of Gauntlet, and both are unreliable. And make it much harder to choose anything else...

So 45pts for regeneration, 15pts for the rune of preservation. Sounds good to me. Just add in that it gives a basic 5+ armor save (heavy armor) and it seems right to me.
Should mention, daemon armour is a 4+ save - it's going to be there version of chaos armour...

Obsidian Armour 45 Points
Background
The wearer has a 3+ armour save that may be combined with a shield, and Magic Resistance (2). In addition, the wearer has a 4+ ward save against magical attacks.

Pretty powerful. With a shield (2pts extra), that is a 1+ armor save, and 4+ against most characters and magic resistance 2, all for 47 points. I'd say either up the cost, or drop the magic resistance (or just make it magic resistance 1).
Er, it's a 2+ save with shield. Maybe just can't be combined?

This is way too powerful...I can see it being as overused as Van Horstman's Speculum. Give it to a hobgoblin hero and put him in a unit of immortals. Run him up against Archaon and get a free win. Then just beat the enemy unit with combat resolution. I'd say take this out of the list or really re-work it.
It doesn't give you a free win... It only gives you a win if your side actually wins the combat...

Uhm...lasts for the entire battle? Against an army likes dwarfs, this can take a unit down to M2 for an entire game. Even with +1 toughness, that is game breaking. I'd say make it last until the beginning of the next chaos dwarf magic phase. That way it only takes a unit out for 1 turn.
Doesn't make sense background wise - it's a reworking of the stone curse Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer's have, and really, why would it cancel out?
I admit it is really powerful, maybe it just doesn't affect M?

The unit too? I just don't see how that would work. Maybe something like the character being able to pick any target he wishes to shoot and that foe not getting a look out sir roll? I just don't get why a telescope would increase the ballistic skill of the entire unit.
I was thinking along the lines of the telescope lets all who point a gun to see what the bearer sees through it, but copied the background from my old rules...
:rolleyes:


Soul Stealing Orb 20 points
This orb catches the dying breathes of all nearby, empowering it's bearer in their agony.
If a model is killed within 18" of the bearer, the bearer may re-roll all his failed to wound rolls until the end of the turn.

18'' is a huge distance. Maybe if it is "if a model is killed by the user or any model within his unit, then the bearer may re-roll all failed to wound rolls during his next close combat phase."
Vampires can re-roll all failed rolls to wound by making an enemy take a Ld test at -3. Daemons can re-roll all failed rolls to wound in the first round of combat. Both are slightly cheaper then this.
Maybe just shorten the range to 6"?

grumbaki
20-11-2008, 01:14
I'll only comment on things that you didn't clear up/I still would like to discuss:

daemon armor: why? I mean, Gromril armor for dwarfs is something special for them, and they only get because they have the material to work in. Having the chaos dwarfs only having heavy armor would be a way to distinguish the two armies.

And while we are on this, I feel like I have to say this:

Chaos Dwarfs *cannot* just be dwarfs with more options. If chaos dwarfs get all of the options dwarfs have, only with cheap fodder, cavalry, monsters and magic...then arn't they just better dwarfs? One way to go against this is to have dwarfs having better standard armor (ie: gromril armor). Personally, I'd like to see dwarfs in the next edition move back towards being more traditional while the chaos dwarfs come out with them being very, very forward thinking. This gives the two races a good contrast that goes beyond "A has tusks and might have big hats, B has no tusks but has horns on their helmets." So whem making this list, I'd ask that this be kept in mind.

But enough about that for now, let's work on the magical items.

The big problem is still this:

"Black Gem of Gnar 50 points
This pitch-black gem contains a powerful spell of translocation, banishing mortals to a shadowed realm of utter darkness until the enchantment ends.
The Gem can be activated at the beginning of any close combat phase, after challenges are issued and accepted or rejected. The bearer and one model of the bearerís choice in base contact are removed from the fight and my not strike blows, nor can they be attacked in any way for the duration of that close combat phase. Work out combat results as normal. Roll a dice every time you use this item. On the roll of a 1-3 it runs out of power and cannot be used again for the rest of the game."

Now, let's have an example of its use. A bloodthirster charges into a unit of chaos dwarfs. The unit has the BSB, whom the bloodthirster wants to eat. The BSB has this gem. Suddenly, the bloodthirster cannot fight. No wounds are done, but the bloodthirster has lost combat by 5. It fluffs its break test and pops. For the daemon player, that really sucks.

The item is just that nasty, and it doesn't seem right to have a 50pt item that can take a 500+ point character out of the game.


"Stone Heart 40 Points
Background
Bound Spell, Power Level 3. The Stone Heart contains a spell which can be cast on a enemy unit within 18". They must immediately roll on the following table. These last for the rest of the battle. If a models Movement is reduced to 0 by this, the model is immediately slain.
D6 Roll Stone Heart
1-2 Stone Legs. The unit has -1 Movement and Initiative
3-5 Stone Feet. The unit has -1 Movement
6 Stone Muscles. The unit has -1 Movement, Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill and Initiative, but gain +1 Toughness."

Well, there are ways to do this then. If you want it "permanent", then how about making it a remain in play spell? That way the enemy can still dispel it. Personally, I'd also like to see it have a chance to die out. Having this spell cast every turn can be really devestating. Either that or take it out...but then again as a dwarf player I just see facing this as being something too scary to contemplate.

UltimateNagash
20-11-2008, 01:32
All machinery based races have armour which gives a 4+ save (Empire and Dwarfs), and then also Chaos. Why wouldn't CD?

And CD aren't gonna be that. In the end, their troops are gonna be less numerous, and not able to do any kind of Rune based whatnot. The thing is, CD have always had alot of that anyway: Hobgoblin slaves, Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers, Bull Centaurs, and the Great Taurus and Lammasu. It's not just something I've started.
The fact is, background wise as well, they've taken all the good stuff from Dwarfs, and then advanced even more so because they aren't as stubborn or resistant to change...
But just because they have more options doesn't mean they're better. They are gonna be more expensive (I feel), with all the special stuff they choose meaning their troops are gonna be quite small...


A bloodthirster charges into a unit of chaos dwarfs. The unit has the BSB, whom the bloodthirster wants to eat. The BSB has this gem. Suddenly, the bloodthirster cannot fight. No wounds are done, but the bloodthirster has lost combat by 5. It fluffs its break test and pops. For the daemon player, that really sucks.
OK, this is more of a ruling than anything... CR shouldn't be taken into account on that account. Maybe it should just move the characters out of the unit, and then the unit fights as normal?

On the Stone Heart - remains in play doesn't make sense. The magic has faded, and it would need actual healing to even stop. Which can't be done, otherwise the CD would have done it ages ago...

grumbaki
20-11-2008, 02:08
Dwarfs have gromril, which is a metal unique to them.
Empire has full plate, which I guess is too hard to make for a dwarf frame..or something.
Chaos has chaos army, a gift from the dark gods.

Having the 4+ save isn't a big deal though, but I don't think that it is needed.

Now, having a really high points cost could work. Does that mean that the basic CD warrior will cost more than a dwarf warrior then? Or does this just mean that the elite troops and stuff will be really expensive?

And when it comes to that bound item, the lore of metal has spells that transform items into lead or brass, and they are not permanent. Why should this be different?

UltimateNagash
20-11-2008, 10:12
Yeah, Dwarfs would have gromril, and would have been making it since before the CD split from them. Therefore, due to dwindling supplies and whatnot, they would have tried to forge a new form of protective armour. Of course, they either succeeded or failed, but considering their level of tech, it's quite reasonable to assume they succeeded.

Yeah, it does mean a CD Warrior will cost slightly more (10 points, and then the blunderbuss would add on quite a bit (between 5 and 8 atm). And the elite troops and stuff should be proportionally more expensive then it would seem. As I see Immortals being ItP, with a 4+ armour save and those ceremonial blades (can be used as either a spear or halberd, choose at the start of each combat), I think they should cost 15 points.
Normal CD Warrior (10) & +1 save (1-2) & ceremonial blades (1.5) & ItP (25-30 for the unit), a unit of 20 should cost exactly 15 points when taking all the highest points costs I listed here.

Also, just a notice - what do people think of the 'Blessed of the Bull' rule. And is it clear the bonus also extends to attacking things like chariots?