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View Full Version : Cypher - Let's hash it out



Inquisitor Engel
16-11-2008, 06:29
So, Cypher doesn't currently have a legal ruleset, to the best of my knowledge.

So here's my idea - please feel free to abuse and adjust until everyone who replies is happy. :)




Cypher - The Fallen Angel

Points - 145

WS 6, BS 5, S 4, T 4, W 3, I 5, A 3, Ld 10, Sv 3+

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain.

Wargear: Power armour, Heresy-era bolt pistol, Heresy-era plasma pistol, Frag and Krak grenades, the Nameless Blade.

No Master, Many Servants: Cypher may be taken in one of two ways: either as an HQ choice in a Space Marine, Imperial Guard, Witchhunter or Daemonhunter army opposing the Dark Angels or as an HQ choice in a Chaos Space Marine army.
He does not occupy the compulsory HQ choice in the force organization chart in either army. Inquisitors may not be included in a Witchhunter or Daemonhunter army if Cypher is included. (They're too well informed!)

The Lone Gunman: Cypher has had untold millennia to perfect his skills with pistol weapons of all kinds. Carrying two now-unique pistols, the kind of which the galaxy has not seen since the Horus Heresy. Both pistols count as rapid fire weapons and he may fire both each turn. He also counts as being armed with two close combat weapons in close combat.

Divine Protection: Cypher often disappears just as his fate is about to be sealed, often to the dismay of his enemies. Should Cypher be reduced to 0 wounds remove him from the board as normal and roll a D6. If an annihilation game is being played, on a roll of 4+ the opposing player is not awarded any victory points for killing Cypher.

The Nameless Blade: Cypher carries with him a sword that none living have ever seen him draw from its scabbard. Some whisper that this is the fabled sword of the Dark Angels Primarch Lion El’Johnson. Others suggest it is a daemon weapon of Chaos, too powerful for him to loose on any battlefield where mortals survive. The Nameless Blade counts both as a Chaos icon and a homing beacon. These benefits apply to both friendly and enemy units.




That's all I've got for now. He doesn't have the C'tan phase knife anymore, the Deceiver stole it back. It's a VERY rough sketch right now. So, have fun, tear it apart.

I'd like to make firmer, smoother rules for Fallen Angels - if he's in an SM, DH or WH force he can take Sternguard Veterans that count as Fallen Angels, if it's CSM, Chosen, with all the options those armies confer.

Just an idea. *shrug* I don't often venture down here. ;)

Supremearchmarshal
16-11-2008, 09:19
Seems ok to me. The special rules add flavour without being overpowered, which is always a plus to me.

I thought that he would probably have BS 6, but then again if he's shooting with 2 pistols it's understandable his accuracy would suffer somewhat.

The only thing that I'd suggest changing is the Pistols counting as as Rapid Fire weapons. It will lead to strange situations, like Cypher being the only model in the game who can't fire a pistol and assault in the same turn. More importantly, if he shoots a pistol and the rest of the squad is armed with pistols, they won't be able to assault either. Maybe simply count the pistols as Assault 2? Maybe range 18"?

As for the Fallen, I'd always count them as Chosen. They wouldn't have access to the special Bolter rounds since they're renegades. Maybe have them and Dark Angels get Preferred Enemy against each other.

EDIT: I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe Cypher had a higher Initiative than Chaos Lords and SM Commanders.

LuTze
16-11-2008, 09:43
One of the main rules about Cypher, when he did have rules, was that he counted as having a power weapon and additional close combat weapon in close combat (due to his prowess with the pistols). I would make his pistols assault 2, 12" range and count as a power weapon + ccw in close combat.

LuTze

Inquisitor Engel
16-11-2008, 17:14
The only thing that I'd suggest changing is the Pistols counting as as Rapid Fire weapons. It will lead to strange situations, like Cypher being the only model in the game who can't fire a pistol and assault in the same turn. More importantly, if he shoots a pistol and the rest of the squad is armed with pistols, they won't be able to assault either. Maybe simply count the pistols as Assault 2? Maybe range 18"?


He can fire them as a single shot and still assault, it gives him some flexibility.

Assault 2 with a plasma pistol and bolt pistol makes him essentially a single squad, by himself.

Fallen might have access to vengeance rounds especially, as they were developed during the Heresy to kill traitor marines, though if they were on Caliban they might not have been issued them...

Chosen just means that if he's taken in one army, then they have to carry around the other books and such, so having the Fallen dependent on the army he joins is... convenient.

Chosen for CSM, maybe Vanguard sans jump-packs for Marines? (Oh, and the Fallen count as the FOC slot for their respective choice! They're not free!)

Xavier
16-11-2008, 17:32
In his white dwarf rules he counted as having a power weapon in combat (This was after he lost his phase knife.) Otherwise looks good.

Ex-guest
16-11-2008, 20:56
Just a couple of points:
1. Yes, he did have a PW. I imagine a plasma blast to the face would give the same result...
2. I believe he counted as stantionary last ed. So maybe give him Relentless. Yes this means four shots but hey, it's Cypher.
3. BS 6 i think is more appropriate than WS 6.
4. How about no Kill point either when he makes his Divine Intervention save.

Otherwise pretty good effort.

solvay
16-11-2008, 21:19
hm id add relentless if you want to make his pistols rapid fire.. eeither that or assault 2

and id also make it like they used to be where he counts as having a power weapon and close combat weapon aswell..

hmm the fallen idea sounds good just try not to make it too overpowered (think of in in other contexts... 4 units of 5 chosen with plasmas.. ouch)

Inquisitor Engel
17-11-2008, 03:50
Alrighty, let's try this again. ;)




Cypher - The Fallen Angel

Points - 145

WS 6, BS 5, S 4, T 4, W 3, I 5, A 3, Ld 10, Sv 3+

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, Relentless.

Wargear: Power armour, Heresy-era bolt pistol, Heresy-era plasma pistol, Frag and Krak grenades, the Nameless Blade.

No Master, Many Servants: Cypher may be taken in one of two ways: either as an HQ choice in a Space Marine, Imperial Guard, Witchhunter or Daemonhunter army opposing the Dark Angels or as an HQ choice in a Chaos Space Marine army.
He does not occupy the compulsory HQ choice in the force organization chart in either army. Inquisitors may not be included in a Witchhunter or Daemonhunter army if Cypher is included. (They're too well informed!)

The Lone Gunman: Cypher has had untold millennia to perfect his skills with pistol weapons of all kinds. Carrying two now-unique pistols, the kind of which the galaxy has not seen since the Horus Heresy. Both pistols count as rapid fire weapons and he may fire both each turn.

In close combat, Cypher spirals and pirouettes around his foes, unleashing blasts from his firearms at close range. Cypher always counts as being armed with a power weapon in close combat.

Divine Protection: Cypher often disappears just as his fate is about to be sealed, often to the dismay of his enemies. Should Cypher be reduced to 0 wounds remove him from the board as normal and roll a D6. On a roll of 4+ the opposing player is not awarded any points whatsoever for killing Cypher.

The Nameless Blade: Cypher carries with him a sword that none living have ever seen him draw from its scabbard. Some whisper that this is the fabled sword of the Dark Angels Primarch Lion El’Johnson. Others suggest it is a daemon weapon of Chaos, too powerful for him to loose on any battlefield where mortals survive. The Nameless Blade counts both as a Chaos icon and a homing beacon. These benefits apply to both friendly and enemy units.




I didn't go for BS6 simply because that re-roll (even if it is a difficult one) would give him just a bit too much of an edge. 4 shots hitting on 2+ is quite enough, along with two of those wounding most things on 2's. As he has two pistols, it's unnecessary to stipulate that he get the benefit of being armed with two pistols/CC weapons.

Anyone want to take a stab at balanced Fallen Angel entries?

LordofWar1986
17-11-2008, 04:01
One thing that caught my attention is that he has "And They Shall Know No Fear" and "Combat Tactics." I can understand him having these rules if he is part of an Imperial Force against Dark Angels, but then again he can use them in a Chaos Army?

I would say tweak the part a bit if hes part of a Chaos army to a god alignment...or something that would fit better.

Inquisitor Engel
17-11-2008, 07:18
One thing that caught my attention is that he has "And They Shall Know No Fear" and "Combat Tactics." I can understand him having these rules if he is part of an Imperial Force against Dark Angels, but then again he can use them in a Chaos Army?

I would say tweak the part a bit if hes part of a Chaos army to a god alignment...or something that would fit better.

Well, he can use them if he's by himself, he doesn't confer them to any squad he joins unless they already had it. I'd say that a Fallen Angels squad probably would have those rules. It'd make for something interesting in a Chaos or IG army.

Please, rewrite it! Change! Edit! Work with me here! ;)

blackcherry
17-11-2008, 07:44
Now if I recall, his token fallen squad were just always a squad of chaos veterans who had and they shall know no fear for free, though feel free to correct me on this.Perhaps its something you may want to explore to just make it easier, instead of him being a HQ choice perhaps have him as a unit upgrade ala some of the newer characters since the ork/demon (I've forgotten which came first) codex.

Say for example he can just be the replacement for an aspiring champ in a chosen squad/veteran sarge for vanguard squads.

Failing that you could just make him base upgrade to any elites choice. If I remember correctly, since 3rd ed he has always been a elites choice, which is what he is. It makes little sense, in my mind anyway, to change that.

Also, perhaps make him just WS 5 BS 6 like a few others have suggested, though I'm guessing this may just be a slight oversight/forgetfulness/can't be arsed and will do it later on your behalf ;).

MadDoc
17-11-2008, 08:21
Well, he can use them if he's by himself, he doesn't confer them to any squad he joins unless they already had it. I'd say that a Fallen Angels squad probably would have those rules. It'd make for something interesting in a Chaos or IG army.

Please, rewrite it! Change! Edit! Work with me here! ;)

Ok then. Hows this...



CYPHER - THE FALLEN ANGEL..................................145 Points

WS..BS..S...T...W...I...A...Ld...Sv
..5....6....4...4....3...6...4....10...3+

WARGEAR
Power armour
Heresy-era bolt pistol
Heresy-era plasma pistol
Frag and Krak grenades
The Nameless Blade

SPECIAL RULES
And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain.

No Master, Many Servants: Cypher may be taken in one of two ways: as an HQ choice in a Space Marine or Imperial Guard army opposing the Dark Angels or as an HQ choice in a Chaos Space Marine or Lost and the Damned army.
Regardless, he may not be taken as the compulsory HQ choice on the Force organization chart in either army.

The Lone Gunman: Cypher has had untold millennia to perfect his skills with pistol weapons of all kinds. Carrying two now-unique pistols, of a kind the galaxy has not seen since the days of the Horus Heresy.
Both pistols count as twin-linked and he may fire both weapons in his Shooting phase (rather than just one weapon as would normally be the case). If he remains stationary, both pistols become Range 18" Heavy 2, Twin-linked. In addition, he counts as being armed with two close combat weapons in close combat.

Divine Protection: Cypher often disappears just as his fate is about to be sealed, often to the dismay of his enemies.
Should Cypher be reduced to 0 wounds he is removed as a casualty as normal, you must then roll a D6. On a roll of 4+ his patron has swept in at the last moment and whisked him to safety, the opposing player recieves no victory points or kill points for killing Cypher.

The Nameless Blade: Cypher carries with him a sword that none living have ever seen him draw from its scabbard. Some whisper that this is the fabled Lion Sword, sword of the Dark Angels Primarch Lion El’Johnson. Others suggest it is a daemon weapon of Chaos, too powerful for him to loose on any battlefield where mortals survive.
The Nameless Blade counts both as a Chaos icon and a locator beacon. These benefits apply to both friendly and enemy units.

Very basic (and quick) tweak. Good starting point you had there Engel, definite potential...

Inquisitor Engel
17-11-2008, 16:49
Very basic (and quick) tweak. Good starting point you had there Engel, definite potential...

A couple of changes I couldn't agree more with! The change to the pistols is nice too.

I will say that if they're twin linked, by bother with BS6? You can't re-roll a re-roll after all. :eyebrows:

Son of Sanguinius
17-11-2008, 17:44
Borrowing your format, MadDoc

CYPHER - THE FALLEN ANGEL..................................160 Points

*Cypher may be included in a Chaos Space Marine or Imperial Guard army. He counts as an HQ choice, but may not be the compulsory HQ choice.

WS..BS..S...T...W...I...A...Ld...Sv
..6....8....4...4....3...6...3....10...3+

WARGEAR

* Power armour
* Relic Bolt Pistol
* Relic Plasma Pistol
* Frag and Krak grenades

SPECIAL RULES
Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Hit & Run.


Mysterious Figure: Cypher may not join Imperial Guard units. If part of a Chaos Space Marine army, he may designate one unit with no Mark of Chaos as a unit of Fallen Dark Angels. He must join this unit and cannot leave it. He and the unit may choose whether to pass or fail any morale check or pinning test while he is alive.

Gunfighter: Cypher's pistols count as Twin-linked and he may shoot both in the shooting phase. In addition, he may run and shoot in the shooting phase. In close combat, Cypher counts as being armed with a pair of power weapons.

Miraculous Protection: If Cypher is slain for any reason, roll a D6. On a roll of 4+, Cypher is removed from the game and the enemy army receives no victory points for killing him.

Fallen 001: While Cypher and/or his unit of Fallen are on the field, all Dark Angels units are subject to the Preferred Enemy special rule and must charge Cypher and/or the unit of Fallen. If Cypher is slain and not removed through his Miraculous Protection rule, leave the model on the table where it died. It now counts as an objective for the Dark Angels army.


Oh, and the increased Ballistic skill is there for character more than rules.

blackcherry
17-11-2008, 20:28
Thats pretty good Son of Sanguinius. The only thing I would change is the twin linked on the pistols as cypher already has a 4+ re-roll because of his BS8 (also you can't roll a re-roll).

Inquisitor Engel
17-11-2008, 21:38
Thats pretty good Son of Sanguinius. The only thing I would change is the twin linked on the pistols as cypher already has a 4+ re-roll because of his BS8 (also you can't roll a re-roll).

Also I'm not aware of any character that has BS8.

Twin-linked is infinitely better than an increased BS. 5 is enough, he's still a Marine. He's hitting on 2's and if he misses... hitting on 2's. If he gets a higher BS, he loses twin-linked (which might be better game-balance wise)

I shall revise accordingly soon.

Nice start there SoS, I'll incorporate some of that into my next draft. :)

Son of Sanguinius
17-11-2008, 22:49
The Phoenix Lords have 7. Cypher's current rules have 6. And if they ever change the ballistic skill above 5 to mean anything other than a re-roll, it will matter.

Inquisitor Engel
18-11-2008, 00:12
The Phoenix Lords have 7. Cypher's current rules have 6. And if they ever change the ballistic skill above 5 to mean anything other than a re-roll, it will matter.

In which case I'll start this thread over again. ;)

They're hardly official rules after all. - I was unaware his last set of rules had I6. Changed.





Draft number three.



Cypher - The Fallen Angel

Points - 145

WS 6, BS 5, S 4, T 4, W 3, I 6, A 3, Ld 10, Sv 3+

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, Relentless.

Wargear: Power armour, Relic bolt pistol, Relic plasma pistol, Frag and Krak grenades, the Nameless Blade.

No Master, Many Servants: Cypher may be taken in one of two ways: as an HQ choice in a Space Marine or Imperial Guard army opposing the Dark Angels or as an HQ choice in a Chaos Space Marine, Renegade or Lost and the Damned army. Regardless, he may not be taken as the compulsory HQ choice on the Force organization chart in either army. If an army includes an Inquisitor or Dark Angel character, it cannot include Cypher and vice-versa, they're simply too well informed to hang around one another!


The Lone Gunman: Cypher has had untold millennia to perfect his skills with pistol weapons of all kinds. Carrying two now-unique pistols, the kind of which the galaxy has not seen since the Horus Heresy. If he remains stationary, both pistols become Range 18" Heavy 2, Twin-linked. In close combat, Cypher spirals and pirouettes around his foes, unleashing blasts from his firearms at close range. Cypher always counts as being armed with a power weapon in close combat. In addition, Cypher cannot join any other unit with the exception of Fallen Angels. (See below)

Divine Protection: Cypher often disappears just as his fate is about to be sealed, often to the dismay of his enemies. Should Cypher be reduced to 0 wounds remove him from the board as normal and roll a D6. On a roll of 4+ the opposing player is not awarded any points whatsoever for killing Cypher.

The Nameless Blade: Cypher carries with him a sword that none living have ever seen him draw from its scabbard. Some whisper that this is the fabled sword of the Dark Angels Primarch Lion El’Johnson. Others suggest it is a daemon weapon of Chaos, too powerful for him to loose on any battlefield where mortals survive. The Nameless Blade counts both as a Chaos icon and a homing beacon. These benefits apply to both friendly and enemy units.

Fallen Angels: Cypher may be accompanied by a small band of other Fallen Angels, who appear to flock to him in times of need or anarchy. Regardless of the army he is using/manipulating/tagging along with, Cypher may be accompanied by a unit of Sternguard Veterans (see Codex: Space Marines for details) although they do not have access to any special bolter rounds or the Combat Tactics special rule, but gain the Relentless special rule. The Fallen Angels take up an elites slot on the force organization chart.





Anyone feel like playtesting if they get a chance? I'll be able to by the end of the week.

Son of Sanguinius
18-11-2008, 01:26
What's the purpose of the Nameless Blade? There is nothing to suggest its powers are those of chaos or those of a homing beacon. And moreover, why both friendly and enemy? Why would the enemy teleport onto Cypher and get themselves killed?

Hellebore
18-11-2008, 02:42
I would make the fallen angels similar to the 13th company. Unlike some chaos marines ALL the fallen angels are 10,000 years old.



FALLEN ANGELS............................................ .....20 POINTS EACH

..................WS..BS..S...T...W...I...A...Ld.. .Sv
Fallen Angel..4....4....4...4....1...4...2....10...3+
Knight*........4....4....4...4....1...4...3....10. ..3+
*(what did the dark angels call their sergeants back in the Heresy? I assume most of the names from the Order were transferred over. Castellan?)

UNIT SIZE:
3-10

WARGEAR

Bolter
Bolt pistol
Chainsword
Assault grenades
Krak grenades


SPECIAL RULES:

And they shall know no fear
Stubborn
Hated Brothers


OPTIONS:
Two models may replace their bolters with one of the following:

Flamer for 5 points
Plasma gun for 15 points
Meltagun for 10 points


One model may replace their bolter with one of the following:

Heavy bolter, autocannon or multi melta for 10 points
Missile launcher for 15 points
Lascannon for 25 points


Any model may replace their bolt pistol and/or chainsword with one of the following:

Plasma pistol for 15 points
Power weapon or lightning claw for 15 points
Power fist for 25 points



Any model may take meltabombs for 5 points each

Upgrade one model to a Knight for 10 points

The knight may take a relic blade for 30 points



Hated Brothers: Fallen Angels units and Dark Angels units have the Preferred Enemy special rule against each other.



This is sort of a combination of chaos chosen and vanguard veterans.


Hellebore

Inquisitor Engel
18-11-2008, 06:00
Hated Brothers: Fallen Angels units and Dark Angels units have the Preferred Enemy special rule against each other.


I really like this, it's obvious but it's something I just couldn't get. ;)

The Fallen Angel rules are a much better start than I had, but I think it's a bad idea to give them a sergeant, they can only be taken if Cypher in the army after all.



My personal tweak:

Elites: Fallen Angels - 130 points

WS 4, BS 4, S 4, T 4, W 1, I 4, A 2, Ld 8, Sv 3+

Unit Composition: Four Fallen Dark Angels Space Marines.

Wargear: Bolter, Bolt pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades.

Special Rules: And they shall know no fear, Relentless, Hated Brothers.

Options:
The unit may contain an additional five Fallen Angels at the cost of +20 pts per model.

For every five models in the unit (including Cypher) a Fallen Angel may replace their bolter with one of the following weapons:

a flamer for +5 points.
a meltagun for +5 points.
a plasma gun for +10 points.
a heavy bolter, multi-melta, or missile launcher for +5 points.
a plasma cannon for free.
a lascannon for +10 points.


One model may replace their bolter with one of the following:

a plasma cannon for free.
a heavy bolter, multi-melta, or missile launcher for +5 points.
a lascannon for +10 points.

Any model may replace their bolt pistol and/or chainsword with one of the following:

a Plasma pistol for +10 points
a Power weapon for +15 points
a Power fist for +25 points
any model may take meltabombs for +5 points each

Hated Brothers: The Dark Angels have hunted the Fallen since the destruction of Caliban shortly following the Heresy. Across millennia, members of the Deathwing and Ravenwing have called upon their brothers, kept in the dark to hunt these renegade marines. Fallen Angels units and Dark Angels units have the Preferred Enemy special rule against each other.




The reasoning behind the cheaper plasma guns and free plasma cannon upgrades are obvious, the Dark Angels obviously had a lot more advanced tech from the Heresy and it just seems to make sense, besides, the PC isn't a totally obvious choice as it scatters now.


What's the purpose of the Nameless Blade? There is nothing to suggest its powers are those of chaos or those of a homing beacon. And moreover, why both friendly and enemy? Why would the enemy teleport onto Cypher and get themselves killed?

If we knew the purpose of the Nameless Blade, many an argument could be ended. ;)

It functions as a Chaos icon mainly to add strong ambiguity to his character. The homing beacon is to add balance and a fresh face - if it is indeed the Lion Sword, then it's probable it has tech from before the Heresy integrated that has it function as a homing beacon, calling out to units that it is there - wanting to be found.

Something like that. :) And if you drop some big assault weapon squads (IG command squads, special weapon squads, swooping hawks, scourges, etc.) then that's one dead Cypher. :angel:

Inquisitor Engel
18-11-2008, 06:06
This obviously changes Cypher's entry to:





Cypher - The Fallen Angel

Points - 145

WS 6, BS 5, S 4, T 4, W 3, I 6, A 3, Ld 10, Sv 3+

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, Relentless.

Wargear: Power armour, Relic bolt pistol, Relic plasma pistol, Frag and Krak grenades, the Nameless Blade.

No Master, Many Servants: Cypher may be taken in one of two ways: as an HQ choice in a Space Marine or Imperial Guard army opposing the Dark Angels or as an HQ choice in a Chaos Space Marine, Renegade or Lost and the Damned army. Regardless, he may not be taken as the compulsory HQ choice on the Force organization chart in either army. If an army includes an Inquisitor or Dark Angel character, it cannot include Cypher and vice-versa, they're simply too well informed to hang around one another!


The Lone Gunman: Cypher has had untold millennia to perfect his skills with pistol weapons of all kinds. Carrying two now-unique pistols, the kind of which the galaxy has not seen since the Horus Heresy. If he remains stationary, both pistols become Range 18" Heavy 2, Twin-linked. In close combat, Cypher spirals and pirouettes around his foes, unleashing blasts from his firearms at close range. Cypher always counts as being armed with a power weapon in close combat. In addition, Cypher cannot join any other unit with the exception of Fallen Angels. (See below)

Divine Protection: Cypher often disappears just as his fate is about to be sealed, often to the dismay of his enemies. Should Cypher be reduced to 0 wounds remove him from the board as normal and roll a D6. On a roll of 4+ the opposing player is not awarded any points whatsoever for killing Cypher.

The Nameless Blade: Cypher carries with him a sword that none living have ever seen him draw from its scabbard. Some whisper that this is the fabled sword of the Dark Angels Primarch Lion El’Johnson. Others suggest it is a daemon weapon of Chaos, too powerful for him to loose on any battlefield where mortals survive. The Nameless Blade counts both as a Chaos icon and a homing beacon. These benefits apply to both friendly and enemy units.

Fallen Angels: Cypher may be accompanied by a small band of other Fallen Angels, who appear to flock to him in times of need or anarchy. Regardless of the army he is using/manipulating/tagging along with, Cypher may be accompanied by a unit of Fallen Angels, using the entry details above. Fallen Angels always take up an Elites slot, regardless of the other army composition requirements. When accompanied by a unit of Fallen Angels, Cypher loses the Independent Character and Combat Tactics special rules.

Hellebore
18-11-2008, 06:41
Well the leadership is so high because the minimum leadership for a chaos marine is 9 and veteran imperial marines are Ld9 too (as were the 13th company wulfen) and the chaos chosen are Ld10.

Also what about the anarchy rule for Cypher? Back in 2nd ed he caused a lot of problems with that rule.

Hellebore

Inquisitor Engel
18-11-2008, 06:47
Well the leadership is so high because the minimum leadership for a chaos marine is 9 and veteran imperial marines are Ld9 too (as were the 13th company wulfen) and the chaos chosen are Ld10.

Also what about the anarchy rule for Cypher? Back in 2nd ed he caused a lot of problems with that rule.

Hellebore

The leadership 8 on the Fallen is mainly to represent the fact that they're generally disorganized and let's face it, they probably don't like putting themselves at terrible risk without substantial reward. :) Besides, Cypher HAS to be with them, making their own leadership largely redundant anyway. ;)

The thing with the anarchy rule is how it would fit into the current edition and the obvious answer is that it doesn't. Deployment is much simpler and the deploy+turn makes things a whole lot easier. With things like reserves, outflank and deep strike being based on something as random as a dice, I just don't see the anarchy rule being as important.

Plus if a unit of guys plodding forward, laying down bolter and plasma gun fire is anarchy enough for most battles. :D

Ferrous82
01-12-2008, 15:19
First, I want to say, awesome job on this topic. I will be adding a thread in this section concering the formation of an entire Fallen army codex. I would greatly appreciate the input from you guys, as you seem to know what your doing.

One thing I would consider is that if Cypher is still surrounded by Fallen Angels, you might think about giving him the Retinue rule. It might be extremly difficult to pick Cypher out of a crowd of white whipping robes, jet black suits of power armour and disgruntled and aged marine faces when in close combat.

HsojVvad
14-12-2008, 17:55
I have an idea, for Divine Protection. Since Cypher is really hard to catch, when his wounds are to 0, a roll of 2+ means he dosn't count for points.

I just don't like the idea of a 50-50 chance of him count as scoring points or not.