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Nicha11
17-11-2008, 04:36
I have an upcoming game against my brothers dwarf gunline (2000points).
And i'm abit worried, Thunderers seem awesome, and dwarf artillery isn't bad either.

He also has an annoying habit of guarding his thunderers with slayers.

So How should i use the list below?

Characters

Slann, 2nd genn, Plaque of Protection, Plaque of Tepok, Sun standard.
565pts

Scar Vet great weapon, glyph Necklace, Charm of the jaguar, blessings of Sotek and quetzel, venom of the firefly frog, light armour, shield.
177pts

Skink Priest, lv 2, bane head 15pts, diadem of power 35pts
150pts

Skink Chief, scout, staff of the lost sun.
100pts

Core

10 Skink Skrimishers (blowpipes)
60pts

10 Skink Skrimishers (blowpipes)
60pts

10 Skink Skrimishers (Javelins)
60pts

10 Skink Skrimishers (Javelins)
60pts

Special

5 Chameleon Skinks
75pts

5 Saurus Cavalry, full command, jaguar standard.
250pts

Rare

Stegadon
235pts

3 Slamanders
195pts

Overall total 1999pts

Makarion
17-11-2008, 04:41
This might be one of those unique occasions where you'll want a bit of Lore of Life on your Slann. Alternatively, Lore of Metal is never bad against Dwarves.

Do you know whether your opponent will have a Rune Lord w/ anvil?

Nicha11
17-11-2008, 04:43
This might be one of those unique occasions where you'll want a bit of Lore of Life on your Slann. Alternatively, Lore of Metal is never bad against Dwarves.

Do you know whether your opponent will have a Rune Lord w/ anvil?

Sadly yes, the SC one.

Makarion
17-11-2008, 04:52
Try and find out from your parents whether they still have the receipt for your brother, as he's a git. That is a cliche cheese monkey dwarf list.

Nicha11
17-11-2008, 04:55
Try and find out from your parents whether they still have the receipt for your brother, as he's a git. That is a cliche cheese monkey dwarf list.

yah i know;)

But is there anyway i can teach him not to try it again? (hopefully by winning)

Einholt
17-11-2008, 05:03
Lose the game, let him taunt you about it until february, THEN invite him for an entire day or warhammer and CRUSH HIS SKULL with every new SC in the lizardmen book, then ask him if he still wants to use Thorek.

Alternatively Take only Skirmishers, and hide to get the message across that he cannot win with a gunline unless you allow it. Thorek causes a problem since he does not need LoS that why you have to do the thing in February.

Honestly taking mainly skirmishers is the right choice, try and hide for most of the game while advancing (you must use forest terrain), use your magic from the edges of forests. Drop the Stego and Cavalry for some flyers to hunt artillery, and even more skirmishers. Basically Leave nothing outside. Try and get Pit of Shades and the ultimate Lore of Metal spell, as well as the Lore of life.
basically hide to deny as much of ur force to damage as possible while using Magic to kill his stuff. Near the end you can rush out with Skinks (blowpipes) and assault the slayers, Poison will help against their Toughness and they have no armor so should die in droves.

The Red Scourge
17-11-2008, 05:10
Saw a report once, where WE faced Thoreks gunline and won by using a unit of 120+ Glade Guard bowmen. Don't know much about lizzies, but maybe you could do something equally nasty.

Alternately, you could just deny playing against Thorek.

Nicha11
17-11-2008, 05:13
I was thinking of ditching the slann for a kitted out old blood on a carnosaur.

Is that a good idea, or would he get shot to pieces?

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
17-11-2008, 05:22
It makes me sad that some of the best advice that is being thrown around is "try to hide."

Isn't there any way he can win this game by, you know, killing the other guy?

Nicha11
17-11-2008, 09:24
It makes me sad that some of the best advice that is being thrown around is "try to hide."

Isn't there any way he can win this game by, you know, killing the other guy?

Is there anyone way to beat the dwarf cheese list with mine?
It can't be impossible.

Neknoh
17-11-2008, 11:47
Kroak list with skinks, drop everything on a cavalry base or bigger that isn't Kroak, those units will never make it to the other end of the table and will only be giving away free victory points. Ruination of Cities with Comet of Cassandora complete with tonnes of armour ignoring spells from the Lore of Heavens coming from your skink chiefs.

Fight fire with fire, Kroak should fire off comets and ruinations whilst your skink priests jumps through woods, draws line of sight to warmachines and such likes and fires off armour ignoring lightning at them. You now proceed to run cirkles around his stupidly slow army with your skinks, throwing poison at him all game.

It will not be fun, but it will show him that gunline with thorek is about as un-fun as you can get, especially when facing skink-swarm with kroak

Djekar
17-11-2008, 12:21
Saw a report once, where WE faced Thoreks gunline and won by using a unit of 120+ Glade Guard bowmen.

off topic a bit, I once fielded 120 Night Goblins with Bows when a "friend" who was notorious for taking uber lords (back in the days of herohammer) and I played a game involving him taking an objective from us. Between the bowshots (gotta fail some of those saves!) and the fanatics he called me all sorts of names... he stopped taking the Lord of Doom when he played me though :evilgrin:

all that to say that I really really like the Kroak list idea with lots of skinks - show him the power of the un-fun!

Ymir
17-11-2008, 12:29
I saw Lizardmen with a Saurus Oldblood on a Carnosaur face an Empire Gunline just yesterday...

The Oldblood himself managed to actually cross the table and charge the Empire's infantry, but his carnosaur was long dead by then. As was the Stegadon, for that matter.

The two large Saurus blocks reached the Empire line rather unscathed, though, but bad rolls and a really good Empire standar (that +Rank Bonus additional CR thing) caused them both too lose the combat when the Empire countercharged, overrunning them both.

The only Lizardmen units that seemed to perform well that game was the Skink priests and the skink skirmishers that survived the death of their stegadon. That unlimited range lightning spell is really good! The kroxigors didn't do that bad of a job either but they were much misplaced out on a remote flank, far from where they could do real damage.

Nedless to say, it was a massacre. I consider the Lizardmen player the best player in our gaming group, he's won every tourney we've had, and the only other time I've seen him loose this bad is when he played gnoblars and faced my Tomb Kings :D (Now -that- was satisfying!)

It should be said though, this time he fielded a rather weak list, and he knew it. I think it was a pretty spontaneous game, and he just wanted to have some fun. (And, just so you don't get me wrong; the Empire list was certainly not boring. It was well balanced with knights and infantry and outriders and such, it just had quite a lot of shooting).

Anyhow:

I don't know much about Lizardmen, and I might not be a very good player in general...

But I would go for Lord Kroak (I dont really like special characters, but this guy has what may be the coolest model in the entire Warhammer range), Skink priests (all remaining character slots, as the dwarfs are likely to have heavy magic defence), terradons, and skirmishers.

That just might put the fear of the Old Ones in him.

DeathlessDraich
17-11-2008, 12:41
I have an upcoming game against my brothers dwarf gunline (2000points).
And i'm abit worried, Thunderers seem awesome, and dwarf artillery isn't bad either.

List
Overall total 1999pts

40 Skinks, 2nd Gen Slann - I think the Dwarves should be very wary of your list. :D

A Dwarf gunline facing Skink shooting Plus Steg and Sallies! -

1) Army list
- Why choose a Skink Chief?
- Chameleon Skinks to march block? - impossible against Dwarves. Pts better spent elsewhere
- No ranked up unit. What about a unit of Temple Guard to shelter the Slann?
They will not break from any flank charging Dwraf unit if the Slann is also a BSB

1) Terrain will be a major factor and the shooting phase will dominate for both sides but you have the advantage of Skirmisher shooting and move and shoot.
Will you be given a watery terrain?

2) 2nd gen Slann magic is a definite winner.
Against a gunline - choose Lore of Life ( 3 spells maybe) and hope for Howling wind and/or Rainlord. Master of Wood or Stone are also good and Mistress of Marsh is useful if there is a watery terrain feature.

3) Jaguar Scar vet would be useful against warmachines but don't expose him to more shooting than necessary. Try to keep him within the Howling Wind shield if possible when he is positioned for a charge.

4) Target and get rid of the Slayer unit - all 40 shots on them if possible. Otherwise target a unit with the worst AS with Skink shooting e.g. Thunderers. Quarellers

5) If an Anvil is present, it is best attacked by magic

Good luck

Dragon Prince of Caledor
17-11-2008, 14:57
Lore of life that rainy spell and the lore of metal is dandy against the gnarly units like ironbreakers. No saurus warriors? No rank and file. On an open field that will be a difficult list to play. the war machines will own the cavalry and the skinks and everything else will bounce off. The skinks are great and the blowpipes are designed for slayer fat. the stegadon will be deadly so long as a cannon ball isnt embedded in its skull. I think you will have better luck if it is all guns because and rank and file will stand up to everything else in your list unfortunately (minus the slann) Good luck i am curious as to how it goes.

VC Doke
17-11-2008, 16:43
You really need to increase the size of your units. Coldblooded LD 5 still fails a lot of panic tests.
keep the Slann, you need him dish out the pain to cut down on shooters.

Disciple of Caliban
17-11-2008, 18:06
I cant offer much help beating the Thorek gunline (it is well hard!) but i will give some solid advice on a related note.

Your list is illegal, 2nd gen slanns use up an extra rare and hero slot, meaning you need to ditch a hero and one of your rare choices. This will certainly change with the new book, but until then your breaking the rules!

Without drastically changing your list i dont think your going to be able to do anything against the dwarfs, you simply dont have any realistic way of inflicting telling damage, and have too many pricey units that will make fine targets for artillery (and you wont be able to hide them all :) )

Nicha11
17-11-2008, 20:04
Your list is illegal, 2nd gen slanns use up an extra rare and hero slot, meaning you need to ditch a hero and one of your rare choices. This will certainly change with the new book, but until then your breaking the rules!


Well i fell like the world biggest idiot :(

Guess i'll drop the Steg and Skink chief and put in a rock hard temple guard unit.

Stuffburger
17-11-2008, 22:35
Try to use as much terrain as possible (and hopefully at least one pond), and preferably do some kind of random terrain distribution. Gunlines dominate when you let them have a hill or two on their side and an otherwise empty killing field, and die when all their lines of sight are blocked and your skirmishers ping them the whole game from the woods and ponds that they can get cover from and move at full speed in.

And there is (in my experience) nothing more brutal on a unit of high toughness, no armor slayers than a volley of poisoned darts auto-killing on a 6. I once had a unit of 12 or so skinks kill no fewer than 13 slayers over the course of one shooting phase and the subsequent stand and shoot. With 48 shots it wasn't even that much a fluke of the dice.

Artemis360
18-11-2008, 00:26
Ok, here's some pointers.

-Dwarf BS is a measily average of 3, so standing in woods or any kind of cover will increase survivability vs shooting and also make it difficult to chase you since in woods dwarfs move a maximum 3" a turn. Get him in there and he may never get out.
-The anvil cannot target independant characters like your skink priests, don't let him do it to you (except maybe the slann cos he's big, but im not sure, better check the dwarf book). For this reason your skink characters might survive better in the open.
-If he's using the special character for his anvil then in combat he has a 1+ armour save and no ward save or anything else. Your scar veteran could really mess him up.
-The organ gun will toast your skinks like anything, keep them away.
-Don't let him get a hill in his deployment zone, whatever you do. A hill will end you, seriously.
-Don't rush into combat with the thunderers too readily. They're really not as hopeless as you might expect. If he has shields then they have WS4, T4 and 4+ save.
-If your brother ever cheats or has a loose grip on the rules, remember, he can't have the same master rune twice or have more than one master rune on a single item. So if a guy has a 4+ ward save in combat or always strikes first etc then thats the only one in his army.
-

Edonil
18-11-2008, 00:36
Also, your scar vet has too many enchanted items I believe...Anyway, as for advice- multiple units of cavalry, covered by scouting skinks. If he isn't paying attention, put the chameleons behind him.

Nicha11
18-11-2008, 03:36
Ok, here's some pointers.

-Dwarf BS is a measily average of 3, so standing in woods or any kind of cover will increase survivability vs shooting and also make it difficult to chase you since in woods dwarfs move a maximum 3" a turn. Get him in there and he may never get out.
-


All your advice is great except the above, Dwarves are BS 4 and thunderers
are 1+ to hit.

Which is a pain as they will be hitting my Skink Skirmishers on 3+
And my chameleons on a 4+

Edit: ignore the above, i believed dwarves to be BS 4, but they aren't..
I'll rework the list, hopefully by the weekend.

Ymir
18-11-2008, 03:50
No, Dwarfs are BS3. The only thing in their entire army that's got BS 4 or 5 are characters and engineers. I just double checked this in their army book.

thunderers do have +1 to hit though, of course.

Nicha11
18-11-2008, 05:23
No, Dwarfs are BS3. The only thing in their entire army that's got BS 4 or 5 are characters and engineers. I just double checked this in their army book.

thunderers do have +1 to hit though, of course.

Oh (goes off and stangles brother).

Ok then i'll just chill out in the woods sniping stuff with my slann till he gives up.

Axis
18-11-2008, 06:03
personally i wouldnt bother with a 2nd gen slaan. Seems like a big fat point sink to me.

goodz
18-11-2008, 06:09
I actually bought archaon just cuz my friend kept using thorak and its a super lame model

re roll fails ancient strength on 3 plus.

just sits in a forest and pwns me, in about 8 games the anvil miss fired once... and it has a very fogiving misfire chart unless he gets 1.

friend used a green knight, just started in the forst but out of site (2 inchs away from anvil) then basically held the anvil in combat for most of the game makign it a waste of points...

TroyJPerez
18-11-2008, 07:19
This is kind of off topic, but what is a cheesier gunline? Thorak with a dwarven gunline or High elves with Teclis, 3 other mages, 4 repeater bolt throwers, two units of archers, swordmasters and pheonix guard? Caues I'm having trouble defeating a high elf player who uses that list. Especially since he is in the habit of attempting to surround his army with water since they pretty much don't move anyways.

Bac5665
18-11-2008, 13:06
Never play against someone who has Thorek. Asking someone to lay against Thorek is like asking someone to let you punch them. They should always say no, and the person is a jerk for asking. I have never heard of someone facing Thorek having a great game. Thorek is not designed to actually be played. He is simply not balanced in anywhere close to a normal game. Tell your brother to make it a normal anvil, and then go ahead and play the game.

Refusing to play Thorek isn't cowardice, no more than refusing to play chess when you only get pawns.

Azrea1
20-11-2008, 00:15
i have played against thorek twice and both times he has blown himself up..
if u wanna be really mean play NG, use scarsnik and laugh when the anvil gets delayed and cant go on the table because it is immobile:evilgrin:

fight cheese with cheese. bring lord kroak

Creeping Dementia
20-11-2008, 03:58
I actually agree with Azrea1 on this one, bring Kroak.

There is really only one type of list I dispise above all others, the Thorek gunline....... so I always carry my Kroak list with me when I pick up a game at the local shop just in case there's some cheesemaster that plays with Thorek.

Just select some spells from life to get the healing spell and hopefully master of stone, pick the rest from metal. Bring a skink priest with the Diadem to get some extra dice and keep him in a big unit to protect him from the anvil. Then you can just stick Kroak out there (even in the open if you want) and nuke away. Heal when you need you, and repeat untill you both get bored and go watch TV. If you do this enough eventually you may stop seeing Thorek and you'll actually be able to play a game (if you want to call playing against any dwarves an actual game).
I personally hate playing against dwarves in general though, its just so damn dull.

Oh, and as for playing against the HE bowline, I'd go for skinks and Sallies in a Sacred host of Tepok.

Einholt
20-11-2008, 04:58
I strongly advise against Temple Guard, they will get shot to bits and no dwarf will be flanking you, with the magic you bring anything coming close should be obliterated.

If facing thorek you must Deny Deny Deny. Kroak is a good idea, you might as well fight fire with fire. But you cannot lose Kroak lol.

Look this is not fun advice here but honestly you cannot have a fun game if you wish to compete against his list. This cannot be a regular game where you try to win conventionally. I would hope that by doing this once your brother will realize to change his tactics. and as I said before if he does not the new lizard men book will have plenty of new toys to be abused until he does decide to play for enjoyment of the game not the win.

I'm not advocating anyone take this strategic response but you asked how to win, and basically denial is the only way. Sorry to say there is not legitimate strategy to beat Thoreks gunline with normal tactics unless you rely heavily on dice.

GuyLeCheval
20-11-2008, 06:02
Use first spell of the lore of shadows to teleport your scar-vet, when you have deployed as close to him as you can. Try to kill thorek with that scar-vet. If you fail, send another scar-vet with some good item that ignores armour saves.

Kroak is also an good idea.
Even with my Skaven, full of dirty tricks against dwarfs, thorek is unkillable.

Bac5665
20-11-2008, 16:55
Kroak sucks, don't bring kroak. Two Slaan are cheeper and better than him. The only useful thing about him is ruination, which is awesome, but its not worth 600 points for that spell. Just take a 2nd gen Slaan. He does most of the same thinks for half the points, and he doesn't lose you the game automatically if he dies.

Makarion
20-11-2008, 18:49
On the other hand, Lord Kroak in a block on Templeguard means that you cannot lose the game as long as he lives. As long as you don't lose your mandatory skink priest and you kill more enemy units than you lose in skink skirmishers, you should be golden.

Might be worth to include some Terradons for table quarter purposes - hide them most of the game and just fly out in turn 6.

leeoaks
20-11-2008, 19:49
isnt magic gonna be toss against the dwarf list with 8 dispel dice?? i would take no magic at all lots of small skink units and anything fast. give him to many options. the gunline list does suck!

Creeping Dementia
20-11-2008, 22:55
Eight dispel dice really isn't that much against a Kroak army considering Kroak gets an entire extra dice and 2+ added to every cast, those dispels will be burned through real quick. Even if Kroak only throws one dice per spell, he'll be casting at about a 9 or so (7 average for the one die and the extra die plus 2) so in order to dispel you'll need to throw 2 to 3 dice per spell, not good for the dwarves.

I'd stay away from Terradons, they are alway the first thing hit with the anvil and go down easily. I'd stick with a couple huge units that are hard to reduce below half and just keep them out of sight. Let Kroak be the only target, use him to take out a couple things and contest a quarter with him at the end of the game. Just be sure to take a healing spell and it's nearly impossible to kill him (except for close combat... which you don't have to worry about). As for Temple guard, you can bring them if you want, but don't put Kroak with them, make Kroak his only target.
The only way to beat this gunline is to make the the dwarf player realize how dumb these games are.

P.S. has anyone else seen a Thorek vs Thorek game? Its sorta funny.