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Nerhesi
17-11-2008, 15:18
Tzeentch Sorceror Lord on a Disc
Enchanted Shield
Talisman of Protection
Crown of Regeneration thingy
Spell Familiar
Third Eye of Tzeentch
Cojoined Homonculus

Level 2 Tzeentch Chaos Sorc on Barded Steed
No Gifts
2 X Dispel Scroll

Level 2 Tzeentch Chaos Sorc on Barded Steed
No Gifts
1 X Voodoo-doll thingy that modifies miscast results by d3

Level 2 Tzeentch Chaos Sorc on Barded Steed
No Gifts
1 X Black Tongue (change an unsuccessful casting into a miscast)

5 Chaos Marauder Horsemen w/ musician, throwing axes and spears

5 Chaos Marauder Horsemen w/ musician, throwing axes and spears

20 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch with full command & blasted banner

1 X Chariots of Slaanesh

1 X Chariots of Slaanesh

1 X Hell Cannon

----

Too much magic? comments please

Stouty
17-11-2008, 16:35
1 Big block of warriors doesn't seem too effective. Neither does the appalling lack of discs.

It's around a 2000pts list (would be nice if you said), and you've spent probably about half or more of that on wizards. You really can't afford to invest in a big infantry block after that, I'd go for fast moving cavalry and monsters but I'm mean. Don't think with so many point sin characters you can play a straight up fighty army.

Could work though, I suppose pts in warriors units are safe points.

Still, it's surprising me how many people are taking the new book to be a green light for big warrior blocks like they're a fundamentally different unit. Or maybe I'm just being too pessimistic.

Nerhesi
17-11-2008, 17:01
1 Big block of warriors doesn't seem too effective. Neither does the appalling lack of discs.

It's around a 2000pts list (would be nice if you said), and you've spent probably about half or more of that on wizards. You really can't afford to invest in a big infantry block after that, I'd go for fast moving cavalry and monsters but I'm mean. Don't think with so many point sin characters you can play a straight up fighty army.

Could work though, I suppose pts in warriors units are safe points.

Still, it's surprising me how many people are taking the new book to be a green light for big warrior blocks like they're a fundamentally different unit. Or maybe I'm just being too pessimistic.

You know, the problem is survivability of those wizards. If you dont' stick them in something, they're dead.. and nothing says kill me like a disc of tzeentch.

Which is why I want the lord on a disc with a 1+ armor, 5+ ward and a 4+ regen like that, to draw fire ... because he'll be damn tough to kill

PS What is the unit strength of a lord on a disc? 3 right? due to base size?

Sam W.

dsw1
17-11-2008, 17:46
Tzeentch Sorceror Lord on a Disc
Enchanted Shield
Talisman of Protection
Crown of Regeneration thingy
Spell Familiar
Third Eye of Tzeentch
Cojoined Homonculus


If you want him to survive against shooting and what not, I'd suggest giving him the armour of morrslieb for a 3+ ward (I wouldn't think the extra spell is needed, and trade the talisman for it, as you can't have the talisman and crown anyway, that's illegal). I also would not take the third eye but I suppose people have their own preferences *shrug*.

But a 2+ save 3+ ward then 4+ regen is a lot more survivable (also considering the only army that has magic shooting (not magic missiles) is dwarves (unless TK's shooting is magic?))

I don't see how you worked out 1+ either as;
Chaos armour - 4+
+ Enchanted shield - 2+

If you want the best armour save, lose the disk and shove him on a barded steed (0+ save).

I hope this helps with the lord :)

Stouty
17-11-2008, 17:50
Unit strength 2 with the lord (page 54)

Also, discs don't say "kill me" they say "catch me if you can". I'm considering running a TMMEM list for kicks and giggles giving them all my sorcerers Blood Curdling Raw or stream of corruption and running them around in a little group for safety. Good use of terrain and the fact that a combined charge would still be quite effective against light targets (remembering they cause fear 4 strength 3; 6 strength 4; and 3 strength 5 attacks should break most pesky light cavalry if you get really cornered).

Foegnasher
17-11-2008, 17:57
what's going to be funny is when you hell cannon misfires, causes all your wizards to miscast, and half your army goes up in an iridescent mushroom cloud.

micht as well be playing Skyre Skaven. :p

dsw1
17-11-2008, 17:57
Unit strength 2 with the lord (page 54)

Also, discs don't say "kill me" they say "catch me if you can". I'm considering running a TMMEM list for kicks and giggles giving them all my sorcerers Blood Curdling Raw or stream of corruption and running them around in a little group for safety. Good use of terrain and the fact that a combined charge would still be quite effective against light targets (remembering they cause fear 4 strength 3; 6 strength 4; and 3 strength 5 attacks should break most pesky light cavalry if you get really cornered).

Just wanted to point out that no gift can be taken multiple times :) It's on page 110 just above "Mantle of chaos".

Nerhesi
17-11-2008, 18:03
If you want him to survive against shooting and what not, I'd suggest giving him the armour of morrslieb for a 3+ ward (I wouldn't think the extra spell is needed, and trade the talisman for it, as you can't have the talisman and crown anyway, that's illegal). I also would not take the third eye but I suppose people have their own preferences *shrug*.


Ward saves stack with regen saves. It is legal. Armor of Morrslieb would not work against:

Any dwarf artillery.
Screaming skull catapults.
Ratling stupid-crazy draw a line through anything gun.
Any magic missiles.
Any magic at all.



But a 2+ save 3+ ward then 4+ regen is a lot more survivable (also considering the only army that has magic shooting (not magic missiles) is dwarves (unless TK's shooting is magic?))


You would only have a 2+, then 3+ then 4+ against vanilla shooting shooting. Not against any magic, and against magical fire.. like even fireball, conflag of doom, etc.. you'd have JUST armor.

Also, against lore of metal for example, you'd have.. well nothing.

Against a dwarven flaming bolt thrower, you'd have nothing.. (pretty common for tree men/tree kin - the flaming single shot bolt thrower.. magic, flaming.. bad bad)

You definitely need the spell familiar because you absolutely want to get Infernal gateway



I don't see how you worked out 1+ either as;
Chaos armour - 4+
+ Enchanted shield - 2+


Mounted on a disc, 1+ - all single wound mounts give you a +1 to armor.



If you want the best armour save, lose the disk and shove him on a barded steed (0+ save).


He can be march blocked, hit by lore of beasts to be slowed down into not moving, and takes penalties for terrain..

Nerhesi
17-11-2008, 18:05
what's going to be funny is when you hell cannon misfires, causes all your wizards to miscast, and half your army goes up in an iridescent mushroom cloud.

micht as well be playing Skyre Skaven. :p

Not really - I'd want the hell cannon to go off every time actually.

You modify every miscast by d3 - hell cannon going off like that pretty much almost guarantees free spells for me and death for enemy wizards.. or at least much hurt.

Sam W.

Nerhesi
17-11-2008, 18:08
Unit strength 2 with the lord (page 54)

Also, discs don't say "kill me" they say "catch me if you can". I'm considering running a TMMEM list for kicks and giggles giving them all my sorcerers Blood Curdling Raw or stream of corruption and running them around in a little group for safety. Good use of terrain and the fact that a combined charge would still be quite effective against light targets (remembering they cause fear 4 strength 3; 6 strength 4; and 3 strength 5 attacks should break most pesky light cavalry if you get really cornered).

Thanks for the clarrification, but discs generally get you killed round 1 by like 10 archers...

10 dwarves, 5 hits, 3 wounds, you make 1 save as sorc on a disc.

BS 3, -1 for long range. 4+ to hit.
4+ to wound.
-2 to armor save, you go from the 3+ to a 5+, means you save 1 wound from 3.

10 muskets/guns just killed the a minimum of a 135 points, not including magic items, and not including +35 pts if we was level 2.

Sam W.

Stouty
17-11-2008, 18:08
Just wanted to point out that no gift can be taken multiple times :) It's on page 110 just above "Mantle of chaos".

Oh poo. I have no idea how I missed that, and it was going to be hilarious as well (Fear my 8D6 strength *cough1cough* hits).

Was sure I'd seen someone using dupes of the conjoined familiar. Bugger.

Back to the drawing board, 80pts can go a long way.

@Nerhesi- Because they're not large targets I've found I'm able to hide them behind terrain and in between enemy units but to be honest I have no idea what terrain set ups you use and the general environment of your club so I can't really tell you one way or other. They're jetpacks basically remember so they can hide a fair bit easier than one might expect.

Nerhesi
17-11-2008, 18:25
My only problem is you usually need the sorc within 18 inches to actually cast the nice magic missile...

which means they're usually in a nice place to smack you around..

dsw1
17-11-2008, 18:26
Ward saves stack with regen saves. It is legal. Armor of Morrslieb would not work against:

Read the rules. They are both talismans, and you may not have more than 1 talisman :) The same applies for enchanted items and archane (unless scrolls I think).

Any dwarf artillery.
Screaming skull catapults.
Ratling stupid-crazy draw a line through anything gun.
Any magic missiles.
Any magic at all.

Skaven and Tk are not that common from where I am so I never really thought about that. Plus, the magic missiles thing, I am fairly sure you have enough DD and scrols to stop most magic getting through (from all but the heaviest magic armies).

still though, what is that protecting you from?

All empire shooting
All dark elf shooting
All High elf shooting
All Orc and gobbo shooting
All Ogre shooting
All lizard men shooting
All bretonnian shooting
Most Wood elf shooting
Nearly all CC units (each army has like 1 exception to this I think).

This doesn't include the 1 or two magic shooting items that an army has. Over all it seems the most viable choice imo


You would only have a 2+, then 3+ then 4+ against vanilla shooting shooting. Not against any magic, and against magical fire.. like even fireball, conflag of doom, etc.. you'd have JUST armor.

Again with my above statement, I would assume 4 wizards is enough to block most on coming magic. If you are worried still about magic, might I suggest more scrolls?

Also, against lore of metal for example, you'd have.. well nothing.

That will pretty much happen anyway, armour or not

Against a dwarven flaming bolt thrower, you'd have nothing.. (pretty common for tree men/tree kin - the flaming single shot bolt thrower.. magic, flaming.. bad bad)

I would have assumed the s8 both thrower was far more common? Not many We players near me so again, they barely take anything flaming, cannon or bolts (I am ussually against DoC, Vc, WoC, Empire etc)

You definitely need the spell familiar because you absolutely want to get Infernal gateway

To be perfectly honest, I would never hold a hope of getting that spell off, just because every scroll and DD the enemy has will be aimed at it. Though I suppose that is a good thing ;)

Mounted on a disc, 1+ - all single wound mounts give you a +1 to armor.

I don't think flying creatures give you that benefit, you may have to check that (I don't think peg knights get that +1 anyway)

He can be march blocked, hit by lore of beasts to be slowed down into not moving, and takes penalties for terrain..

True, but it was only a suggestion if you wanted a better AS was all.



I hope this again helps you :)

dsw1
17-11-2008, 18:33
Oh poo. I have no idea how I missed that, and it was going to be hilarious as well (Fear my 8D6 strength *cough1cough* hits).

Was sure I'd seen someone using dupes of the conjoined familiar. Bugger.

Back to the drawing board, 80pts can go a long way.

That would have been brilliant, 8d6 s1 hits on average would take out 4.67 Chaos knights :eek: That would be harsh!3 turns of shooting and most of my army would be dead :cries:

backslide
18-11-2008, 04:44
the army is just sooo tiny one bad magic phase and it could be all over

Jericho
18-11-2008, 06:37
Hell, one botched panic test and it's all over. You could be humped before you ever get to cast a spell. That's one of the nice things about discs and other single-model characters. It's almost impossible to lose them all at once.

Overall I'm not exactly impressed with the army list though. Sure it's got a ton of offensive magic, but what else can it do? Your chariots and horsemen can't do anything but try to deter enemies form charging your massive point sink unit. Simply can't leave them unprotected. But that takes away any speed or combat advantage you might have. You're just sitting there trading magic volleys for enemy shooting volleys.

The last couple turns of the game will be very ugly if your enemy whittles you down with shooting, or gets into combat fully intact. Personally I wouldn't play this army, but if you want a challenge then go for it.

BTW you might want to try that Skull of Katam or whatever it's called. The one that gives you an extra +1 to cast for all mages within 3" (friend or foe). That could make your magic a ton nastier. I would take this over the Black Tongue any day.

Nerhesi
21-11-2008, 18:29
It's pretty much impossible to botch a magic phase with the d3 modify miscast item, you can always avoid the 7 or the 2, and can even force some 12s (use 2 or 3 dice to try to cast infernal gateway.. get two 1s.. roll a 9 to 11 and using the d3 modification force it onto irresistable.. I mean, there was no way that level 2 was going to cast it anways)

dsw1
21-11-2008, 18:51
It's pretty much impossible to botch a magic phase with the d3 modify miscast item, you can always avoid the 7 or the 2, and can even force some 12s (use 2 or 3 dice to try to cast infernal gateway.. get two 1s.. roll a 9 to 11 and using the d3 modification force it onto irresistable.. I mean, there was no way that level 2 was going to cast it anways)

Erm, you need to roll a double 6 to get irresistible force, not get twelve (Only skaven need to get a number using any combination of dice - 13). even if this was the way, miscast always over rules irresistible force unfortunately, so you would still miscast.

And again even if this was so, the gift also states that the gift can not cause irresistible force or miscast.

I do agree though that with this, you would be hard pressed to botch the magic phase.

backslide
22-11-2008, 02:51
be ammusing to use deamons VS this banner of dispaire anyone? terror is fun, or making the unit stupid, a stuped hellcannon would be ammusing

dsw1
22-11-2008, 09:13
be ammusing to use deamons VS this banner of dispaire anyone? terror is fun, or making the unit stupid, a stuped hellcannon would be ammusing

lol, you make there general run with The icon of despair, the masque and Doom of darkness. lol, facing a chaos lord with ld2 would be hilarious. I could just imagine a chaos lord running in fear with a unit of chosen XD

Ozorik
22-11-2008, 20:16
Your characters are set up reasonably well, not my chosen equipment but it will do.

The rest of your list really needs some work though.

The hellcannon is redudant and quite expensive and a unit of 20 warriors is both expensive and unweildy.

Keep the horsemen as they are, reduce the warriors to between 12-16, remove the hellcannon and the chariots (cannons dont have much else to shoot at in this army). Add a couple of marauder blocks, a unit of knights and as many hounds as you can fit in.

This will give you a solid line that will be much harder to tarpit and will be very hard to stop from reaching the other side of the table, allowing your sorcerers some more leeway to mutate things as well as providing you with a better safety cushion should bad things happen.

You also dont need to be overly scared of missile troops, a 20" move means that its fairly easy to avoid lines of fire and once you get behind their lines your much safer. Aside from from all but warmachines (which shouldnt last long when you have a large flickering fire battery).