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txamil
17-11-2008, 18:31
Does it depend on the lore? race?

Hiportes
17-11-2008, 18:46
I think it does depend on race and lore, but for the most part I include magic users for their potential impact (esp as an OK player) and for the attention they can get from an opponent. Obviously they are integral in armies like VC and TK, but when running Brets, I often take them more for defense. Sometimes the impact is more lessening the impact of enemy spellcasters than the spells they cast themselves.

IJW
17-11-2008, 19:50
Do magic-users 'make their points'?

To be honest, this is an attitude/question that means you are artificially limiting your skill level in playing the game. A better question would be - 'does a magic user help my battle plan better than the same points spent on something else?'.

Take the example of a Grey Seer putting a big Skaven unit into a Frenzy when facing Fear or Terror-causing units - the Seer has 'made' no points, but enabled the unit to charge or receive a charge without having to test. Concentrating on points inflicted is a rather narrow view... ;)

theunwantedbeing
17-11-2008, 20:10
Making your points back?
ie. not getting themselves killed all game you mean.

That would be "getting your points back".
As dealing exactly your cost to the enemy in each battle puts you at a total massacre if everything acheives that, as then there's nothing left of the enemy.

Really you want the unit to deal "enough to ensure a win", so the required points is going to be dependant upon the game played.
At:
1k - 15% his cost
2k - 22.5% his cost
3k - 20% his cost
4k- 18.75% his cost

Obviously this figure goes does a bit untill you hit the next level.
As well as going up by the cost of the mage killed if it gets killed in the battle (plus extra if it's the general).
That would be truly "getting your points back" in terms of being capable of winning at any rate.

ie. my 400points high sorceress on pegasus needs to deal 90pts of damage to the enemy army to "get her points back" (in addition to not dying of course) in a 2k game.
Although if she dies, she needs to have dealt 490points, or 590 if she's the general.

rodmillard
17-11-2008, 23:58
"Making points back" is a spurious argument at best.

I frequently field a Light Mage with the seerstaff in my high elf army. He hardly ever kills an enemy model, but the buffs he gives to my other units are of untold benefit. In what way does he "make his points back?"? You can't calculate the cost of enemy units that would have survived if he hadn't buffed my combat units, and you certainly can't calculate the value of friendly models that would have died without his spellcasting; yet those spells are so central to my tactics that between him and my high mage I often go an entire battle without using any direct damage spells at all.

Thinking that a mage has to "make his points back" traps you into thinking that the only way to judge their effectiveness is through the PV of models killed. This in turn tricks you into thinking that the different lores should be judged in terms of the ammount and power of their damage spells. Of all the models in Warhammer, mages are the ones which least lend themselves to the concept, as their utility crosses into so many different spheres that it is impossible to calculate (in fact, when threads come up about the whole concept of units "making their points back" it is usually mages that are brought up to show why the concept doesn't work).

Weapon-X
18-11-2008, 00:32
I think this is very race dependent as well. Obviously, as previously pointed out vamps, tk and tzeench are very dependent on magic. As for the other races, I can say yes it is possible for them to be well worth their points. On flip side of this, I would just have to reinforce that magic is the most unreliable phase of the game and it will let you down, just as much as it comes through for the win.

madbomber23
18-11-2008, 00:40
yeah definitely if you play high elves!
higs all the way!

KillbotFactory
18-11-2008, 01:06
A much better term than "making points back" is to look at magic and ask if it is "cost effective". This means that looking at how many points you spent on magic and the influence it had on the game and if you think it was worth it/not worth it.

The best way to get the most cost effective magic is to use it as a supportive role. As mentioned before, it depends on your army(also your matchup), but when you rely on magic to win games then it will more often then not fail you.

Kahadras
18-11-2008, 02:18
Making your points back?
ie. not getting themselves killed all game you mean.


I agree. Concidering the idea of 'making points back' is a waste of time IMHO. For example a magic user could 'made their points back' just by turning up and surviving the game. Turning up grants the extra DD and place to put dispel scroll and surviving keeps her points intact. Other people would argue that she'd only 'make her points' back if she killed her own cost in points of enemy models. While others would point out that wizards can have other effects on the game than just direct damage.

Kahadras

Captin Korea!
18-11-2008, 02:24
I think most can make their points back relatively easily with one or two well placed spells going off at a opponents main block unit.

Edonil
18-11-2008, 03:15
What's the point to a magic user? My Dark Elf wizards rarely make back all their points in terms of sheer killy, but what they do kill is enough guys to deny ranks. Or to prevent shooting (yay chillwind). Or just screw with people's heads. Points is a very arbitrary rule of measurement- what's the potential impact on the game overall?

FurryMiguell
18-11-2008, 04:53
YES! You must have magic! Mages are the bane of your foes, thelight in the tunnel, the power of win!

No, but used correctly, a mage can be one of the most powerful units on the battlefield. Able to wield terrible spells of destruction, wiping out entire units in one round of magic, and also able to support you units better than any other.

When you say 'make up their points', that should not be the question. The question would be 'does it help my battleplan'. I see now that this has been said before, but anyway...

Go have a look at the magic 101 if you wonder how you should use the various lores!

Condottiere
18-11-2008, 10:33
Sometimes, a scroll caddy is just to prevent the other side's wizards from making their points back.

FurryMiguell
18-11-2008, 10:43
a scroll cady can only carry two scrolls (most dont use lords for scroll cadys...), a mage can cast a lot more spells every round

Condottiere
18-11-2008, 11:33
Perhaps it's just to neutralize the wizard long enough until the Dragon drops in for a visit, or some other bunch of boisterous youths.

The Red Scourge
18-11-2008, 12:17
a scroll cady can only carry two scrolls (most dont use lords for scroll cadys...), a mage can cast a lot more spells every round

I'm sorry, but you can't rely on dispelling every spell your opponent throws at you luckily your opponent can't rely on making the casting number either. A caddys role is not to neutralise your opponents magic phase, but to stop him from getting off one or two spells that could be crippling to your strategy.

The Clairvoyant
18-11-2008, 12:39
Slightly off topic, but i'd like using scrolls to cost you VPs.

So if you decide to use a scroll, you give away 25VPs (or 50, whatever seems like a nice figure) in addition to the normal VPs for killing the mage (so a 100pt mage with 2 scrolls (150pts) can potentially give away 200 VPs if he uses his scrolls.
Similarly, any bound item that runs out should give VPs to your opponent.

I think a couple of changes like that could really make a difference to games.
*prepares for the torrent of abuse*

Kahadras
18-11-2008, 13:01
a scroll cady can only carry two scrolls (most dont use lords for scroll cadys...), a mage can cast a lot more spells every round

I disagree. I agree that a mage can cast more spells but the likelyhood is that he won't. Even including the low level spell spam armies most wizards run the risk of failing every spell they throw PD into. If in combat their potential for casting spells drops off as well and let's not even start talking about miscasts.

So mages can cast a lot more spells every round but the chances of them doing so are very low. After fighting through the odds of getting good spells, rolling to cast, the chances of a miscast, your opponants DD and a well placed scroll or two its no wonder people have to load up on magic to see it do any good.

Kahadras

FurryMiguell
18-11-2008, 15:31
yes, but every unit has its fail factor. Im not saying a mage always cast more than two spells a round, Im saying he CAN. Thats more than you can say about a scollcady! It all depends on how you use your mages, if you like using mages, if your strategy will benefit from the use of mages and how many monkeys you got down your pants...

Emeraldw
18-11-2008, 15:35
All I am going to say is that a lord level Caster with lore of beasts casting "The Beast Cowers" for 5 turns (and getting it off every time!) on a Greater Deamon is priceless.

FurryMiguell
18-11-2008, 15:52
All I am going to say is that a lord level Caster with lore of beasts casting "The Beast Cowers" for 5 turns (and getting it off every time!) on a Greater Deamon is priceless.

Even more amazed that the Geater Daemon walked around for 5 turns:p. In my games, he tends to go first

MarcoPollo
18-11-2008, 18:08
I think it is important to look at mages in terms of "opportunity cost" (i.e. what you could get for equal value). A scroll caddy runs about 125-145 pts. Within each race, I'm sure you can think of units or other characters that run the same amount of points. A mage lord with tricks can run close to 350 pts. And what else could you have for those points.

In a CoW army for example:
1 scroll caddy costs the same as 4 units of warhounds or 1 unit of marauder horsemen with mark of Khorne. Depending on what you want to accomplish, you have to choose your tools.

A mage lord costs the same as a unit of knights and a maruader anvil. Or a scroll caddy and some dragon ogres. Pick your tools to do the job you need.

For me, I do not like my units to be dictated by magic. But I prefer to let my units do the job of winning or loosing the game instead of individual characters. So I take enough magic to keep people honest, but not too much magic that my hopes are pinned to one or two characters.

txamil
18-11-2008, 18:23
I think it is important to look at mages in terms of "opportunity cost" (i.e. what you could get for equal value). A scroll caddy runs about 125-145 pts. Within each race, I'm sure you can think of units or other characters that run the same amount of points. A mage lord with tricks can run close to 350 pts. And what else could you have for those points.


I totally agree, and end up doing the same thing as you. The hounds are a grea example because they can engage the enemy mage quick, and then when they are pusued you can 'pull' the enemy mage close to your line really quick.

60 pts that can limit a mage for almost everything but the first turn. This gives me a 100 point advantage in melee once I engage the pulled mage unit for the beat down.

It doesn't work that cleanly of course, but I think you get what I'm going for here.

Kahadras
18-11-2008, 22:29
yes, but every unit has its fail factor. Im not saying a mage always cast more than two spells a round, Im saying he CAN. Thats more than you can say about a scollcady! It all depends on how you use your mages, if you like using mages, if your strategy will benefit from the use of mages and how many monkeys you got down your pants...

I agree that every unit has a 'fail factor' but the fact is that Mages suffer this more accutely than other units due to the amount of steps they have to go through to get those spells off.

Yes he can get two spells off a round but that doesn't say anything about the scroll caddy. The scroll caddy, for example, won't go blowing himself up by casting spells. He doesn't need to get within LOS or a certain range to make his abilities work. So saying 'I can cast two spells' doesn't really say much at all at the end of the day IMHO.

Kahadras

FurryMiguell
19-11-2008, 05:33
I agree that every unit has a 'fail factor' but the fact is that Mages suffer this more accutely than other units due to the amount of steps they have to go through to get those spells off.

Yes he can get two spells off a round but that doesn't say anything about the scroll caddy. The scroll caddy, for example, won't go blowing himself up by casting spells. He doesn't need to get within LOS or a certain range to make his abilities work. So saying 'I can cast two spells' doesn't really say much at all at the end of the day IMHO.

Kahadras

but a scollcady will still not render a mage useless. that was the issue at hand I belive. Yes, a mage has a bigger chance of failing than other units (or most... skaven rules superior here;)), but it also have way superior damage output as compared to others of the same pts cost

If a mage is worth its cost, is, as I said before, entirely dependant if the plan you play will benefit from him, how much anti-magic stuff your oponent has, and how much magic you have.

Kahadras
19-11-2008, 10:44
but a scollcady will still not render a mage useless. that was the issue at hand I belive. Yes, a mage has a bigger chance of failing than other units (or most... skaven rules superior here), but it also have way superior damage output as compared to others of the same pts cost

A scroll caddy will put a dent into the abilities of the mage though. I believe Condottieri's point was that scroll caddies can hamper the others sides magic ability to the point where it wasn't worth throwing so many points into the characters. They don't have to stop everything, just enough over the first couple of turns to allow the player to get into combat or bring his mage hunting units into play.

Kahadras

W0lf
19-11-2008, 14:47
Scroll caddies are gay.

One of my opponents plays mounted khorne warriors vs my Tzeentch warriors.

After his 3 dd and MR all ive really got is infernal gateway. I always through 5 dice to ensure casting it, scrolled in the first 2 turns and then combat usually ensues.

135 pt caddy > lvl 4 wizard. And it also means 5 out of my 11 dice are made useless. It would be more effectve for my list to run 2 caddies then spend 800+ pts on magic tbh.

theHandofGork
19-11-2008, 16:11
As a Bretonnian player, my Damsels rarely do much in terms of "making their points back." They rarely get a spell off and are a liability in combat.

That being said, yesterday playing HE with 3 lvl. 1 damsels (5dd), with 5 scrolls between them, my opponent didn't get a spell off until turn 4 or 5.

So no, my magic users never "make their points back," but they do a lot to help me win.

Edit: Forgot about MR1 to every unit they join- totally worth the points!

MarcoPollo
19-11-2008, 16:13
135 pt caddy > lvl 4 wizard. And it also means 5 out of my 11 dice are made useless. It would be more effectve for my list to run 2 caddies then spend 800+ pts on magic tbh.

Yup!

Mages are like "rooks" in the chess game. Their effect can tend to be neglible during the first turns of a game as opponents tend to have caddies and enough tricks (screens, magic resistance, scrolls etc) to handle their effects. But late game, a mage can really influence a match. Especially if all those other things have been mitigated by then. You really have to work at eliminating all those niggly factors so that your mage can turn it on. Plus at the end there is more room for him to hide, get LoS etc. That is why choosing the right supporting cast to help your magic is neccessary.

Generally, this supporting cast tends to relfect the nature of the spell that you are using.

I personally don't like to play against alot of magic, nor do I like to play with alot of magic. But, if I am going to play magic, then I will design my lists with the appropriate supporting cast.

FurryMiguell
19-11-2008, 16:48
A scroll caddy will put a dent into the abilities of the mage though.

Kahadras

Thats the Idea of scollcady's:). Im quite aware of that.

If I got something wrong, Im sorry, but my english is not very good, so go easy on me:D

cicero
19-11-2008, 19:49
as a high elf the book of hoeth is priceless.spirit of the forge on heavy armoured units is a game winner .mages are like anything use them well and they are worth more than their points use them badly theyre not

AKBandito
19-11-2008, 22:44
imo, fielding wizards is so you have some sort of magic defense, if u dont field at least 1 of em, you will most likely lose.
mostly opposing wizards cancel each other out. Its just a compulsory alotment of points
for an army, well, if your playing competitively.

Fraggzy
20-11-2008, 19:34
that really depens on the magic you got contra the army the enemy is using, yhis is usually not a to large problem when you have an army that can choose the eight lores of magic.

And remember they dont allways have to kill as much as they cost, the fact that they are there might alter the enemys strategy or be a crucial part of your strategy (never rely to much on those pesky magic users) is manytimes just as important as them killing alot.