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senorcardgage
18-11-2008, 22:04
Hey guys,

I haven't had the chance to play too many games of 40k since 5th edition rolled around. I was just curious; have you noticed significant changes in peoples' army list building practices?

For example, with troops only scoring, have you witnessed a higher emphasis on troops? Or, with vehicles being tougher to damage, have you noticed their increased inclusion?

Thanks! :D

Frep
18-11-2008, 22:08
I've found troops to be far more in the majority, vehicles are being taken about the same amount, their firepower has been reduced but survivalbility increased. Oh an big CC monsters are more popular thanks to running in my area, curse Cole and his carnifii.

vampires are cool!
18-11-2008, 22:12
Yep, more carnies, more troops - playing against a guard army is not so diffrent but marines now have more tacticals and scouts hopping about.

Warp Zero
18-11-2008, 23:25
Hey guys,

I haven't had the chance to play too many games of 40k since 5th edition rolled around. I was just curious; have you noticed significant changes in peoples' army list building practices?

For example, with troops only scoring, have you witnessed a higher emphasis on troops? Or, with vehicles being tougher to damage, have you noticed their increased inclusion?

Thanks! :D

Within my small little gaming world, I've seen various reactions. For me, even before 5th Edition, I ran a troops heavy Eldar list and thus my army list has changed very little if at all. My Tau friend also hasn't changed his list. He runs bare minimum two troops choices and everything else Stealth and Crisis Suits. Risky!

My friend who plays Chaos Marines has upped his troops though. My Imperial Guard friend has returned to his Mechanized list due vehicles being more survivable.

kultz
19-11-2008, 00:06
Eh.

Massed shooty troops are becoming incredibly popular with the addition of troop scoring, better cover, and new consolidation rules.

One common tactic is to cover the area in scoring units and simply have too many troops for your opponent to chew through.

Ordnance and blast weapons became much more effective. Especially when massed.

Plasma weaponry suffered a decline in popularity due to better cover and a little quirk of the new wound allocation rules.

ie: 5 marines. Take 4 plasma wounds and 6 bolter wounds. Only two gets pegged instantly. Since two models gets double plasma wounds stacked on top.

That, coupled with the "If I give enough wounds, it'll be forced to allocated onto specialists!" effect meant that weapons that churn out many many wounds are popular : Flamers.


Vehicles are immensely popular when fielded in groups.

Massed high-armour vehicles (14) overwhelms most armies' ability to take them down. Since glancing no longer works as a vaguely viable anti-vehicle option.

Also, did I mention, as a result of the new consolidation rule. "Super Killy Assault Squad of Expensive Death OH GOD I HOPE I HIDE IN COMBAT" units are no longer nearly as viable?

Aurellis
19-11-2008, 00:10
For my Tau I have:

Added 1 Firewarrior Team
Added 4 Kroot Hounds
Added 1 Broadside Battlesuit
Changed 1 Crisis Team to having Flamers and Plasma Rifles
Dropped my 3rd Hammerhead

marv335
19-11-2008, 00:43
more flamers, more troops, more blast weapons.
Less one trick pony lists.
I think 5th has improved army comp immensely.
There has been a swing towards balance.

ralphooo
19-11-2008, 00:52
I think that's the way it should be, a strong emphasis on troops with some specialised units complementing them. You've got your elites paving the way, troops holding the line (or advancing, depending on the situation) and heavy support...er providing fire support.
My 2c

cailus
19-11-2008, 00:58
From what I've seen most people are starting to reemphasise troops at the expense of other unit types.

adreal
19-11-2008, 01:26
Um no not really, local eldar player switched from falcons to serpants and no longer uses harlie's

me and another chaos player have stopped playing mech (although I still use two rhino's) and we both now use twin princes

apart from that no not really

Warforger
19-11-2008, 01:28
Yah during 4th the only use for troops was that they could have more of.

I don't understand why people say blast weapons are more effective.... Sure no partials is nice, but scattering totally kills it I prefer 4th eds rules as they make more sense.

olmsted
19-11-2008, 04:02
yeah but theres only so far it can scatter now. for marines the maximum it can go is 8 inches and 7 is considered the mean scatter distance so 7-4=3 inches of scatter. seems good to me

Hicks
19-11-2008, 05:12
Not much difference here regarding the number of troops used. Sure my IG still use tons of them, but the players who used to max out on other stuff still do so. Troops being the only scoring units is rather dumb IMO, objectives are super easy to contest, so even with 6 troop choices on each side, most games would still end up as draws.

Warforger
19-11-2008, 05:14
Yah, but there is no real average on where the arrow will go to now is there? During 4th my Plasma cannon Heavy Flamer dread was a great idea, now it is one or risk blowing up allies.

olmsted
19-11-2008, 05:18
while thats true it also mitigates the chances of hitting your troops. also apparently you no longer have to place the hole on top of a model you can place it any where.


im just saying your chances of actually hitting this edition are better then last.

Warforger
19-11-2008, 05:40
Meh I just don't want it too blast weapons, I never used ordnance in my BA army, no Whirlwind or Vindicator, then all of a sudden my Plasma cannon scatters, one game it scattered, killed 2 tactical marines and wrecked there Rhino, the irony was that the dread wasn't even facing the damn squad. Last ed's rules for blast weapons were muuucchh better IMO, as it represented that it was just a highly explosive concentrated fire, rather then a artillery shell that is random.

cailus
19-11-2008, 06:04
while thats true it also mitigates the chances of hitting your troops. also apparently you no longer have to place the hole on top of a model you can place it any where.


im just saying your chances of actually hitting this edition are better then last.


I really fail to see how this is so with small blast markers.

Back in the old days the plasma cannon guy hit 66% of the time.

Now he hits 33% of a time though any scatter roll of 2-4 will also be a hit. So n the scatter there is a 1 in 6 chance of it scattering 4 inches or less.

By the way the average scatter is 6-7 so this means even after modifiers are taken the scatter is 2-5 inches depending on Ballistic Skill.

With the small blast marker even a 2 inch scatter usually means nothing is hit.

I've personally found my kannons to be worse under the new edition as they no longer hit 50% of the time.

I think anyone telling me that small blast markers hit more often now on anything with a better BS than 2 is smoking some serious crack.

alex03
19-11-2008, 06:50
What have I noticed? Skimmer tank shock FTW. Seriously.

Happens every time I play against my eldar playing friend. Near end of game just fly a waveserpent onto the ojbective. Whether you pass or fail the LD check, you're off the objectives. Try killing a wave serpent with a 4+ save and its special field rules sitting on all your ojbectives. Games ends you lose. So wave serpent heavy eldar = easy win.

Helps that his army usually isnt even on the board the first turn, but can fly anywhere they want when they do arrive, with 4+ saves.

What else have I noticed? Dreadnoughts still suck, ground vehicles still suck, even with the more favorable damage charts. Ground based vehicles are too slow and to get any firepower out of them they have to sit completely still. Tactical marines aren't very tactical.

Time to play orks or eldar. Thats what 5th is all about.

itcamefromthedeep
19-11-2008, 07:40
What have I noticed? Skimmer tank shock FTW. Seriously.
Random Game length is supposed to help with that, so that you may have a turn or two to kill the tank on your doorstep. Hitting on rear armor (and inside the force field) is harsh for a Wave Serpent.


I have found that my balanced Tyranid list did far better under 5th edition then it did in 4th. My Gaunts actually had a job to do that didn't involve getting killed a lot.

My Eldar (who I play like Tyranids, oddly) didn't get fielded until I had a third Troops choice. Other then that they stayed very much the same.

IJW
19-11-2008, 10:12
more flamers, more troops, more blast weapons.
Less one trick pony lists.
Yup.


From what I've seen most people are starting to reemphasise troops at the expense of other unit types.
That's not been my experience, but then I already know that I play in a very different gaming environment.


Plasma weaponry suffered a decline in popularity due to better cover and a little quirk of the new wound allocation rules.

ie: 5 marines. Take 4 plasma wounds and 6 bolter wounds. Only two gets pegged instantly. Since two models gets double plasma wounds stacked on top.
Only if there were at least two 'single-model' groups in the 5 Marines, otherwise it'll just be 4 dead from the plasma and the remaining model trying to make six saves - and the chances are that the single model groups would be the sergeant and special weapon or heavy weapon - no way would you be putting the plasma hits on them.
I find that outside of over-the-top units like Ork Nobs where every model has purposefully been kitted out differently, it's not a problem.


Also, did I mention, as a result of the new consolidation rule. "Super Killy Assault Squad of Expensive Death OH GOD I HOPE I HIDE IN COMBAT" units are no longer nearly as viable?
Yes. :)

About the only change with my Orks/Squats is adding a Warboss/Warlord to make the MegaNobs/Exo-Armour Hearthguard into a scoring unit, but that's also because he works really well with the unit anyway. My new Plague Marine army is almost all troops, but hasn't actually changed since I first planned the army with the release of the current codex.

Johnnyfrej
19-11-2008, 10:48
As a long time Guard player I am loving the new rules. Now my Camoline Cloaked Guardsmen are even more formidable!

Things that Guard can do now / can do better:
-Sentinels can outflank. Great for flank attacks at vehicle sides and rears.
-Heavy Stubbers are still Defensive Weapons.
-Smoke Launchers still give us the old SL rules (5th book says codex takes presidence)
-Hellhounds are even more useful with new emphasis on cover and infantry, not to mention no more partials.
-Our Ordnance and Barrages are better than ever! Now we might hit something even if we scatter. Did I mention no more partials?
-Ratlings might be used because they get +2 to their cover saves and can infiltrate into buildings and hard cover at the start of the game. Also Sniper Rifles are rending now.
-Stormtroopers Deep Striking is now even less reliable. Best bet is to infiltrate now or take mechanized grenadiers.
-If you go crazy with Light Infantry you could have a lot of infanty showing up at your opponents flanks.
-With the new true line of sight you will need to hide your Basilisks better now. This in turn will make their indirect fire more used.
-Now that you can't consolidate into CC, that blasted uber-killy unit won't just flatten your whole army squad by squad. Now you get some pay-back!

Well thats just off the top of my head. Probably a lot more.

Gorbad Ironclaw
19-11-2008, 10:53
I don't understand why people say blast weapons are more effective.... Sure no partials is nice, but scattering totally kills it I prefer 4th eds rules as they make more sense.


Because you can't miss! Since even touching is now a hit and you have no risk of the template disappearing blast weapons are much, much better than before. Remember, in 4th if you missed with a blast weapon you didn't got to put the template down. Now the template is always there. True, it might scatter off target, most most of the time you will still be hitting something and especially for low BS armies it's a massive boost.

marv335
19-11-2008, 16:37
presidence)
-Hellhounds are even more useful with new emphasis on cover and infantry, not to mention no more partials.


Hellhounds still get partials if the shot misses. Codex trumps rulebook, the hellhound rules are quite specific on how the inferno cannon works.

shin'keiro
19-11-2008, 16:43
I haven't had the chance to play too many games of 40k since 5th edition rolled around. I was just curious; have you noticed significant changes in peoples' army list building practices?

no not at all - i still see armies with 2 scout units and a shed load of terminators - lol

Eryx_UK
19-11-2008, 16:57
Hey guys,

I haven't had the chance to play too many games of 40k since 5th edition rolled around. I was just curious; have you noticed significant changes in peoples' army list building practices?

For example, with troops only scoring, have you witnessed a higher emphasis on troops? Or, with vehicles being tougher to damage, have you noticed their increased inclusion?


Absolutely. Troops are a lot more common among my group. Its not uncommon to see three or four maxedout troop choices these days.

Lord Inquisitor
19-11-2008, 17:08
It's taking a little while for people to adapt, but for me:

- Pretty much the same number of Troops choices (perhaps one more), so 4-5 Troops in a big game.
- Transports are a no-brainer (so my troops don't take damage from a Wrecked result? 35 points each? Alright! How many can I have?)
- Tanks, tanks, tanks! I need to paint up more Land Raiders...

As people are starting to cotton onto the "tanks are great" principle, I'm thinking about trying to squeeze some more AT firepower into my lists.

Johnnyfrej
19-11-2008, 17:33
Hellhounds still get partials if the shot misses. Codex trumps rulebook, the hellhound rules are quite specific on how the inferno cannon works.
Your thinking of if the Hellhound fails its BS test. I'm talking about the all models under or touching the template when it makes the BS test no longer get the partial +4 save if the template is only touching them.

Lord Inquisitor
19-11-2008, 17:35
I... don't think they ever did? If you passed the BS test all models touched by the template are hit, no?

marv335
19-11-2008, 17:53
Your thinking of if the Hellhound fails its BS test. I'm talking about the all models under or touching the template when it makes the BS test no longer get the partial +4 save if the template is only touching them.

They never did get partials on a "hit" with the hellhound. It's a template.

senorcardgage
19-11-2008, 22:06
Yeah, I'm going to have to agree here. Hellhound blats acted like flamers such that there were no partials as long as you hit on your BS test