PDA

View Full Version : Charge Arcs - Sideways Glance??



Eternus
19-11-2008, 07:57
This was wierd. It may be that I've just been playing Fantasy wrong all these years, in which case let me know, but I always believed that when checking to see if an enemy unit you wish to charge is in the charge arc of your own unit, it doesn't matter how many models in your unit can see the enemy, as long as one can, and that one must be in the front rank.

This might sound strange, but it came up in a battle last night, where my opponent argued that as my Gyrocopter was just in the charge arc of the Silverhelm in the 2nd rank, the unit could declare a charge.

I always played it that charge arcs were determined by what the front rank could see, as the arcs of the models behind were blocked by those in front, even if the enemy unit is to the flank. Is that wrong?

ajay29
19-11-2008, 08:08
Yer, I think you got blagged there...

LoS is drawn from front rank for charge arcs, but as long as one model from the front rank can see then the whole unit can charge if within the other normal parameters (distance, wheel, etc)

ashley.willson
19-11-2008, 08:15
I always played it that charge arcs were determined by what the front rank could see, as the arcs of the models behind were blocked by those in front, even if the enemy unit is to the flank. Is that wrong?

No this is 100% accurate. Sounds like your friend was losing and was looking for any excuse lol!

goodz
19-11-2008, 08:18
yea you got ripped off

you can charge a unit if your front rank can perhaps only see his secound rank? Perhaps he somehow got that confused:P

Eternus
19-11-2008, 08:32
yea you got ripped off

you can charge a unit if your front rank can perhaps only see his secound rank? Perhaps he somehow got that confused:P

As I understood it, even if only the guy on the end of my front rank can see, that is enough to declare a charge, but being an easy going guy and being on a time limit for the game, I let it slide. Then later on, I used the same trick on him to get the flank charge into his White Lions that probably won me the game, as the White Lions got wiped out, the flank chargers overran into the Dragon Princes flank, who lost and fled into the waiting Miners - Game Over!

So I'm glad I was right, but the book is a little unclear. I read through the section on declaring charges, and arcs, and interposing models, and I think it's the reference in the text to shooting that confuses the issue. My opponent made the point that if a damsel in a unit of knights is on the edge of the lance, she can cast LOS spells. See what I mean? It does say that if any model in the unit can see the enemy, but it doesn't say any model in the front rank.

Atrahasis
19-11-2008, 09:15
If one model, ANY model can see the target then you can declare the charge.

However, models in the second rank will normally only have LOS to models in the front rank of the same unit. The only exceptions are with Large Targets or models on hills.

If your Gyro had been a Large Target, or if it was on a hill, then he could have charged. Otherwise he was wrong.

His point about a Damsel in a unit of knights is also incorrect - models in the rear ranks' LOS is blocked by the model in front of them.

Eternus
19-11-2008, 09:44
If one model, ANY model can see the target then you can declare the charge.

However, models in the second rank will normally only have LOS to models in the front rank of the same unit. The only exceptions are with Large Targets or models on hills.

If your Gyro had been a Large Target, or if it was on a hill, then he could have charged. Otherwise he was wrong.

His point about a Damsel in a unit of knights is also incorrect - models in the rear ranks' LOS is blocked by the model in front of them.

So we have 2 units of 'normal' sized models, both on flat ground, and one unit want to declare a charge against the other. Non of the models in the front rank of the unit wishing to charge can see the enemy unit, as they out of their arc, but a model in the 2nd or 3rd rank, on the edge of the unit, can see the enemy. Can the unit declare a charge, or is the LOS of the 2nd/3rd rank model blocked by the model in the rank in front, even though the unit they with to charge is to the side?

Gorbad Ironclaw
19-11-2008, 09:47
LoS is blocked by the models in front of it. Basically, any part of a base will block line of sight, and since the model in front will completely block the base of the model in the rear rank it can't see a thing.

Atrahasis
19-11-2008, 09:49
a model in the 2nd or 3rd rank, on the edge of the unit, can see the enemy.No, it can't.

narrativium
19-11-2008, 10:15
The line of sight of any model in a unit is its forward 90-degree arc - i.e. from the centre of its base (or, in the case of cavalry/chariots, the centre of the forward half of its base) to the front left and right corners. Ranked up, the corners of a model in the second rank will touch the corners of the model directly in front, and no further, thus blocking its LOS. As stated, the only exceptions are for the unit's height, or its target's height, and even then, only for the purposes of shooting. A second-ranker on a hill can't be used to see a target for charging.

Eternus
19-11-2008, 10:22
LoS is blocked by the models in front of it. Basically, any part of a base will block line of sight, and since the model in front will completely block the base of the model in the rear rank it can't see a thing.

And as arcs are always to the front, they can't see anything if they're not in the front rank because the base of the model in front completely blocks the arc. This is exactly the point I argued last night.

Never mind! We won a stonker anyway, and so it wasn't too much of a sticking point on the night, but I was sure as Longbeards are grumpy that what the guy said was wrong.


Many thanks all for the input.

DeathlessDraich
19-11-2008, 14:50
And as arcs are always to the front, they can't see anything if they're not in the front rank because the base of the model in front completely blocks the arc. This is exactly the point I argued last night.

Never mind! We won a stonker anyway, and so it wasn't too much of a sticking point on the night, but I was sure as Longbeards are grumpy that what the guy said was wrong.


Many thanks all for the input.

1 more input :p

If the enemy unit is on the hill, LOS is determined slightly differently -

a) The Damsel in the 2nd rank has LOS to cast spells at the unit on a hill
b) Exactly where LOS for charging is determined is not specified in this case But
since LOS for charging cannot be differentiated from LOS for shooting, a model from the second rank *could* enable a valid charge declaration even if the first rank does not have LOS to the charge target.
I know some players will challenge this. :p

Nurgling Chieftain
19-11-2008, 15:45
The diagram on page 8 would look quite a bit different if models in successive ranks could look sideways!

N810
19-11-2008, 16:41
I believe the Skull Pass rule book has some excelent line of sight diagrams. :)

Emperor's_Spork
19-11-2008, 18:12
We've had a few discussions about second rank models or front rank models perfectly lined up with an opponent to the front, and the possibility of line of sight from the corner. It seems fairly clear that LOS cutting through the corner of the base is blocked.

However, I don't see the rules saying it has to be a model in the front rank to declare a charge. So if a fellow on a palanquin, juggernaught or other wider base than the rank & file of the front rank, found himself in the second rank on the edge, he might stick out and be able to draw line of sight.

Sorry about possibly re-opening the larger-base/ranks can of worms. :)

Eternus
21-11-2008, 13:38
1 more input :p

If the enemy unit is on the hill, LOS is determined slightly differently -

a) The Damsel in the 2nd rank has LOS to cast spells at the unit on a hill
b) Exactly where LOS for charging is determined is not specified in this case But
since LOS for charging cannot be differentiated from LOS for shooting, a model from the second rank *could* enable a valid charge declaration even if the first rank does not have LOS to the charge target.
I know some players will challenge this. :p


We've had a few discussions about second rank models or front rank models perfectly lined up with an opponent to the front, and the possibility of line of sight from the corner. It seems fairly clear that LOS cutting through the corner of the base is blocked.

However, I don't see the rules saying it has to be a model in the front rank to declare a charge. So if a fellow on a palanquin, juggernaught or other wider base than the rank & file of the front rank, found himself in the second rank on the edge, he might stick out and be able to draw line of sight.

Sorry about possibly re-opening the larger-base/ranks can of worms. :)

These are exactly the kind of reasons why the issue came up to begin with - the book says ANY MODEL IN THE UNIT, but doesn't specify front rank, and does refer to shooting. The Diagrams on page 8 are unfortunate in that there is no unit shown with a front rank that cannot draw LOS, but with a 2nd rank that can, as the only model with no LOS is the Monster.

N810
21-11-2008, 14:06
Oh look a Line of sight diagram
http://warhammer.au.games-workshop.com/gaming/skullpass/rules.htm
from the Games workshop in 7th edition battle for shull pass book.