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madival
19-11-2008, 17:51
Why do people use single unit bunkers for VC in a game. It seems to much of a liability and very difficult to wield the whole army around this one unit, and worst yet if the unit gets engaged in melee your whole magic phase is gone

Malorian
19-11-2008, 17:55
If your VC heros die VC loses.

So you need to protect them and a bunker, put behind your blocks, is the best way to do this and only costs 80 points.

If your opponent gets to your bunker it's usually because you main blocks have been wiped out in which case you've lost anyway.

The only time VC shouldn't have a bunker is when they are blood dragon themed and all setup to hold their own.

Also note that even if they send something fast into the bunker, vampire mages don't work like others and still have a lot of spells that they can cast while in combat.

theunwantedbeing
19-11-2008, 17:58
You can still raise in combat.
Van hels gives ASF and re-rolls in close combat and can be cast into combat.
The Drakenhof banner makes the unit rather resistant to dying in combat.

eg. Regen halves the number of models that die.
Regen also halves the number of models that die to crumble.

Therefore the bunker unit tends to work rather well for VC.
As you lose very few models and each single dice casting gives you back D6 lost models.

Throw in Vampires being fighty character's first, mages second (yes thats true, anyone disputing this obviously hasnt got a clue what a fighty character is) and with ASF they tend to win fights rather than lose them.

madival
19-11-2008, 18:01
where is the part about how vampires cast differently. in the VC book, i cant find it( probboly me on this one)?

Oberon
19-11-2008, 18:09
There is only one spell you can't cast when you are in CC, the gaze of nagash. none of the other spells of the VC lore are magic missiles, or need LOS, so cast away. Curse, wind, IoN, and Vanhel can be cast to CC too, as can the IoN-effect of the nro 6-spell. So what is the problem?

About the bunker: you basically have 3 options in fielding your casting vampire lord, with which the whole army crumbles:
1: hide in a forest, keep everything within IoN range and hope no one comes your way
2: hide in a bunker, keep other unit(s) in front of it->you can advance, and still be about as well protected as nro 1
3: step to the front rank, and take every fast unit that comes your way like a man. Live on the edge, that wolf chariot just might kill your lord.

The choice is yours, try to guess what every one else is picking :)

L192837465
19-11-2008, 18:28
if you don't have a wight bsb with the regen banner and vampire lord with killy stuff that still casts competently in a unit of grave guard with the +1 to hit banner, you're an idiot. that unit is almost impossible to ******* kill.

Oberon
19-11-2008, 18:31
Umm, no it isn't? Big GG bunker with lot of heroes, meet Bloodthirster. Or something else with fire/killingblow, and lot of high str. But otherwise yes, its rock-hard and (IMO) too slow.

siphon101
19-11-2008, 18:47
Umm, no it isn't? Big GG bunker with lot of heroes, meet Bloodthirster. Or something else with fire/killingblow, and lot of high str. But otherwise yes, its rock-hard and (IMO) too slow.

Bloodthirster, meet grave guard unit champ. He's going to challenge you. You can't refuse. So unless that 'thirster decided to bring the flaming weapon, sure, the unit champ is going down, but with 7 attacks, and half the wounds more or less ignored through regeneration, that 'thirster is probably only doing 3-4 wounds total on that unit champ.

Now meet three ranks, banner, and outnumber, and that 'thirster just lost combat.

Malorian
19-11-2008, 18:50
if you don't have a wight bsb with the regen banner and vampire lord with killy stuff that still casts competently in a unit of grave guard with the +1 to hit banner, you're an idiot. that unit is almost impossible to ******* kill.

That's a pretty silly comment. That unit is a LOT of points and makes your army a LOT smaller. There are draw backs and it's not a 'must have' choice by any means.

Much like the super hammer unit with dwarf lord, your opponent will just avoid the block and wipe out everything else. Capture all the table quarters and take the win/draw.


Siphon101: And what happens in the next round of combat? That thirster probably isn't going anywhere and when it get back to his turn you won't have a champ and he can go after the characters.

madival
19-11-2008, 18:52
The arguement isnt that it protects your units. It does that very well. I am asking is it worth piling in all my vampires and mobility into a unit that will never earn its points, slow down the rest of the army, and more then like cause me to cry because of a single round bad rolls of dice/good rolls of an opponent. Is it truely worth it to put restraints on the rest of the army and cause it to cluster. from what i have seen mobility is often the key to victory

theunwantedbeing
19-11-2008, 19:02
Siphon101
Sure that works when your facing just the thirster on his own.
Although eventually he'll hit a character.

However, throw a herald or a daemonic unit champion into that fight and "oh dear" that unit is now in massive trouble.
There are 2 models who can accept that challenge, and one of them will be accepting it if it arrives, and it WONT be the bloodthirster (unless its declared from say....the general).

Goodbye that unit.

Malorian
19-11-2008, 19:05
Well your general lets everything within 12 inches march so you aren't slowing down your lines too much, and your vampires can start in other units to keep them moving and then just jump in the bunker just before you get into combat.

The point of some units isn't how much they kill (that's a 40k thing), some units are required just because of their utility. Take throw away units. Do skaven players expect their slaves to kill anything? Hell no, they are there to die and either tie up the enemy so you can shoot them or redirect so your clan rats can hit the flank.

What might be better is if you post your list and then we can tell you if it's a list that should have a bunker or not.


Edit: I see your list in the other thread.

Yes you should definately have a bunker. A lord and two vampires with zero protection... that's like the definition of when you need to have a bunker :D

madival
19-11-2008, 19:31
Well your general lets everything within 12 inches march so you aren't slowing down your lines too much, and your vampires can start in other units to keep them moving and then just jump in the bunker just before you get into combat.

The point of some units isn't how much they kill (that's a 40k thing), some units are required just because of their utility. Take throw away units. Do skaven players expect their slaves to kill anything? Hell no, they are there to die and either tie up the enemy so you can shoot them or redirect so your clan rats can hit the flank.

What might be better is if you post your list and then we can tell you if it's a list that should have a bunker or not.


Edit: I see your list in the other thread.

Yes you should definately have a bunker. A lord and two vampires with zero protection... that's like the definition of when you need to have a bunker :D


my vampires are in the unites of ghouls and spread out.(forgot to mention on the list). the vampires are protected but they arent all in a single unit.

Malorian
19-11-2008, 19:36
That isn't protected!

Once that unit gets in combat the vampires are toast. Remember that vampires are just as easy to wound as ghouls, so guess where all his attacks will go?


Edit: AHHHH! You don't even have ghasts in the ghoul units! What are you going to do against character killers? That JSoD is just going to jump that lord and the game is over just like that!

I hate to say it, but your list is almost designed to set up your vampires to get killed.

Trust me, you NEED a bunker in that list.

Oberon
19-11-2008, 19:49
The arguement isnt that it protects your units. It does that very well. I am asking is it worth piling in all my vampires and mobility into a unit that will never earn its points, slow down the rest of the army, and more then like cause me to cry because of a single round bad rolls of dice/good rolls of an opponent. Is it truely worth it to put restraints on the rest of the army and cause it to cluster. from what i have seen mobility is often the key to victory

Nobody said to put all your vamps in the bunker, just the lord and maybe his lackey if you are using two naked vamps (dread knight should not be dismissed out of hand, or flayed hauberk, with them you could go to the front line). Frontliners can stay there, and let the champions take only the hardest hunters.
Bunkers do not slow the army down, and with vampires the main army should stay within shouting range of the general to be repaired as needed, and speed it up (not slow it down) by allowing it to march.
With good bunker, there is no single round of bad rolls unless you have failed the turn before and allowed a situation arise where someone is rolling those potentially critical dice. Like overrun distance to the bunker, or hitting and wounding the general.
Bunker army can have mobility, and indeed does have it, by spreading your naked vampires around you are only presenting your enemy multiple targets, that are often easier to reach than the bunker.

The bloodthirster example was further expanded suitably by others already, I kind of assumed the stubborn banner to be around, and the thirster having obsidian armour and the flaming sword with him, as I think they are very good items for him, especially against VC.

madival
19-11-2008, 19:55
I must have miss intepreted the bunker then. The few bunkers i have seen had everyone in it that was a charecter.

Oberon
19-11-2008, 20:01
that depends on the list you are using of course. I myself could not take 1000pts of casters with no protection at all but each other and one champion, and put them in the same regiment. But then I play lord with 2+ armour save in a regenerating unit, a necromancer and either another necro or a vampire. Only the last 2 even consider going into the bunker. If you are not meaning by bunker the regenerating knight regiment where the fighty characters are hiding :P

Casters go to the bunker, but no one forces you to play only casters(=only pure casters without any protection).

Gaftra
19-11-2008, 20:05
Siphon101: And what happens in the next round of combat? That thirster probably isn't going anywhere and when it get back to his turn you won't have a champ and he can go after the characters.

thats why you have nehek going and you never lose your champ, or you refuse the challenge and deal with losing the troops till you come back and redirect something that can actually hurt the thirster. this is consequently why the bunker works so well, every turn youre brining the throwaway unit champ back and you can move your army around and hit him with as many units as you like.

you can also generate a couple unit of zombies 1 inch away from you so your opponent has to hit and wear through them first.

Malorian
19-11-2008, 21:07
Graftra, first of all lets stop calling the ward save grave guard block as a bunker, because it's not. It's a rock hard unit, but not what is commonly refered to as the VC bunker.

Now look at how this works:

Turn A: Nasty thing charges, champ makes a challenge and is killed.
Turn B: Vampire raises back up the champ, who challenges again and is killed.
Turn C: Now it's back to the nasty things turn and you have no champ, and he has no reason to issue a challenge. Either he directs his attacks against what he wants or you have to make a challenge with the BSB or a vampire which he'll have to accept but then you lose that critical character.

Now we can get into a lot of 'what if I raise this' 'what if I do this' but what is important to see here is that although you can raise the champ in your turn, he's going to be dead when it comes to your opponent's turn.

Foegnasher
19-11-2008, 21:20
Bloodthirster, meet grave guard unit champ. He's going to challenge you. You can't refuse. So unless that 'thirster decided to bring the flaming weapon, sure, the unit champ is going down, but with 7 attacks, and half the wounds more or less ignored through regeneration, that 'thirster is probably only doing 3-4 wounds total on that unit champ.

Now meet three ranks, banner, and outnumber, and that 'thirster just lost combat.


it's called a flank. geez' give the guy some credit, if he charges that unit in the front he deserves to lose.

if he charges your flank, the champ can't challenge, and he owns you by 1 or 2.

Gaftra
19-11-2008, 21:32
Graftra, first of all lets stop calling the ward save grave guard block as a bunker, because it's not. It's a rock hard unit, but not what is commonly refered to as the VC bunker.

Now look at how this works:

Turn A: Nasty thing charges, champ makes a challenge and is killed.
Turn B: Vampire raises back up the champ, who challenges again and is killed.
Turn C: Now it's back to the nasty things turn and you have no champ, and he has no reason to issue a challenge. Either he directs his attacks against what he wants or you have to make a challenge with the BSB or a vampire which he'll have to accept but then you lose that critical character.

Now we can get into a lot of 'what if I raise this' 'what if I do this' but what is important to see here is that although you can raise the champ in your turn, he's going to be dead when it comes to your opponent's turn.

I wasnt actually refeering to the grave guard block as the bunker, not sure why that came across. I understand you reasoning and you are correct that the nasty thing would get around to you characters after on the third round of combat. mind you thats a long time to be stuck in and the big nasty probably isnt winning all of those combats.

The entire strategy is in the 'what if I raise this' 'what if I do this'! I certainly dont think you win by just having your lord in a bunker, not dying isnt winning. its the fact that you can keep him alive long enough to turn the table in you favor that allows you to win.

Disciple of Caliban
19-11-2008, 21:35
Also, the blood thirster will almost certainly have flaming attacks, the firestorm blade is just awesome! But as has been said, sooner or later that thirster will start eating your characters.

I dont see how this debate has raged so long, yes, given the right set of circumstances a seroius bunker unit, with a couple of characters may well survive the attention of a bloodthirster, but then it likely also costs more points than said thirster, and lets not forget there are plenty of other units for the vampire counts player to worry about, whereas the daemon player need concentrate on nothing but executing the vampire general.

And of course the fact that the thirster flys gives it a damn good chance of hitting the units flank, at which point the champion can do nothing but stand and watch whichever character is on said flank get eaten by the chosen of Khorne!

Latro
20-11-2008, 06:35
if you don't have a wight bsb with the regen banner and vampire lord with killy stuff that still casts competently in a unit of grave guard with the +1 to hit banner, you're an idiot. that unit is almost impossible to ******* kill.

I'm an idiot!


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