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kaulem
20-11-2008, 15:09
a simple question regarding the wound distribution on the handlers of the dark elf war hydra.

If the opponnent places the handlers on either side of the hydra and I only have models on one side that can target the handlers, to the wounds I made on one side carry over to the handler on the other side?


.......HHHH......
.....hHHHHh....
....FFFFFFF.....

Atrahasis
20-11-2008, 15:54
There is no reason why they wouldn't; handlers are rank and file like any other.

Malorian
20-11-2008, 16:56
Hmmm that's very good to know.

DeathlessDraich
20-11-2008, 16:59
There is no reason why they wouldn't; handlers are rank and file like any other.

Not "like any other".
The Hydra itself is also rank and file but can excess wounds be passed on to it?


a simple question regarding the wound distribution on the handlers of the dark elf war hydra.

If the opponnent places the handlers on either side of the hydra and I only have models on one side that can target the handlers, to the wounds I made on one side carry over to the handler on the other side?


.......HHHH......
......hHHHHh....
....F1FFFFFF2.....

This is by no means clear cut and the rules do not deal with it sufficiently:

The rules are
1) "casualties fall among the rank that is fighting"
2) "casualties are removed as normal" - i.e. from the back
3) "a model may choose which model to attack" if it is in btb with more than 1 model

1) - Only 1 rank here - no probs
2) - Casualties are removed from the back - not specific enough if there is only 1 rank and not all models are fighting.
However for flank charges/clipped charges to work, it *must* be assumed that non fighting models can be removed as casualties unless otherwise stated.

The Hydra rules unfortunately comes close to being an exception:
a) Excess wounds on the Hydra cannot be passed on to the Beastmasters if Beastmasters are not attacked? - Not stated in Hydra rules but generally accepted - some support from ** below
b) The converse would have to be true if you accept (a) - attacks/excess wounds on the Beastmaster cannot carry over to the Hydra
c) Attacks on the Hydra unit have to be allocated

**3) When attacks are allocated, they are allocated on a specific model - rule (3) above - "which *model* to attack"
Therefore excess wounds cannot carry over since a specific model is being attacked.

Therefore wounds on a Beastmaster should not carry over to the other Beastmaster.
No, absolute rules here but that seems The most workable solution, .

Atrahasis
20-11-2008, 17:05
The reasoning in your post could be used to argue that wounds never carry between rank and file if the attacker is in base contact with a character or champion because he has to choose which model to attack.

Rubbish.

Malorian
20-11-2008, 17:05
I don't know... when people are attacking my salamander's handlers we've always played that they transfer over... just never thought about it when it comes to the hydra.

It sure makes sense that it would transfer over. The way I think of it is like a hero in a small unit. If you decided to attack the unit then the wounds obviously transfer over, so why not in this case?

DeathlessDraich
20-11-2008, 17:17
I don't know... when people are attacking my salamander's handlers we've always played that they transfer over... just never thought about it when it comes to the hydra.

It sure makes sense that it would transfer over. The way I think of it is like a hero in a small unit. If you decided to attack the unit then the wounds obviously transfer over, so why not in this case?

Well, the rules are as I've quoted unless you can come up with other rules I haven't thought of.
*Assumptions* have always been made on how the above rules should be played.

The Hydra's rules stretches and challenges those assumptions.

Salamanders are different however:

Salamander's do not have the same Hydra rules which demand attack allocation.

EvC
20-11-2008, 17:33
Salamanders DO have the same rule that demands attack allocation. You have to pick what you're attacking- it's just there are conditions that mean you can't pick the Handlers. You still have to say, "X attacks on the handlers, Y attacks on the monster". As long as each handler remains identical to each other, then wounds will carry over.

Similarly with Ogre Hunters and Sabretusks, wounds will carry over from one Tusk to the other.

DeathlessDraich
21-11-2008, 11:29
This is not entirely new and requires a good look at the inadequate rules of pg 31-36 which have been discussed several times.


Salamanders DO have the same rule that demands attack allocation.

Well I don't recall that rule for Salamanders - is that taken from an FAQ?


, then wounds will carry over.

Similarly with Ogre Hunters and Sabretusks, wounds will carry over from one Tusk to the other.

And that is the crux of the problem - the rules do not use those phrases -
"wounds carry over etc" or "excess RnF wounds are inflicted on RnF models etc"

The problem is quite fundamental and involves rules that has to verify these questions (using supporting rules please if you wish to attempt :)). No characters involved:

Q1: If casualties only "fall from the fighting rank", which *non fighting* model *actually* suffers excess wounds (when the situation arises).
N.B. back rank is not the answer.

Q2: "represents the attackers stepping forward etc" - The word 'represents' prevents this from being an applicable/stringent rule.
But what other guideline is there to find out which model other than the fighting rank is the *actual* casualty (as opposed to back rank convenience) for excess wounds.

Q3: "allocate attacks to a *model*" - If attacks are specifically allocated against a model, what rules support the notion of carrying excess wounds (on the *model*) to othe models?

Q4: If attacks allocated against a model of certain WS and T, translates into excess wounds, can the excess wounds be allocated to *other* models (in the fighting rank) in the unit with a different WS and T?

Assumptions, as I stated in my first post, have been made by most players in answering these questions.
Very reasonable assumptions, otherwise basic features of the game (like flank charges) become unplayable.

However can these same assumptions be made for the Hydra considering its very specific close combat rules.

I feel they should not for the reasons I've given in my first post

Gazak Blacktoof
21-11-2008, 12:24
**3) When attacks are allocated, they are allocated on a specific model - rule (3) above - "which *model* to attack"
Therefore excess wounds cannot carry over since a specific model is being attacked.

Therefore wounds on a Beastmaster should not carry over to the other Beastmaster.
No, absolute rules here but that seems The most workable solution, .

This doesn't seem to follow with the normal procedure for attacking*. If I decide not to attack a character and instead attack the Rank and File next to him, I've made a choice, you seem to characterise this as allocation of attacks to a specific model rather than a group of models. Multi-attack models in contact with a character or champion would get shafted fairly quickly if this was applied broadly.

When you attack the handlers you are doing just that, there's no need to stipulate that you're attacking a specific handler most of the time - destroyer of eternities and similar effects being an exception.

Handlers aren't champions and they aren't characters so there should be no need to attack them individually and no reason why wounds wouldn't carry between them. As you said some assumption has to be made about wounds not carrying between the monster and handlers but those are reasonable and not many people would disagree.


*But perhaps the rules don't support it either.

EvC
21-11-2008, 15:07
Well I don't recall that rule for Salamanders - is that taken from an FAQ?

Well, you tell us, what do you do when you find a unit in combat with a unit of Salamanders, and have a choice of attacking either the handlers or the monsters?

Do you end up killing a maximum of one handler and one Salamander in base contact? No. You allocate the attacks - some of them are mandatory, as you might not be in contact with both beast and skink - , and if you do X wounds on the Skinks, then X Skinks die. Then if you do Y wounds on the Salamanders, then they take Y wounds after saves, which may carry over.

The basic concept, is that there are TWO types of rank and file models in a unit of Salamanders and Skinks, and in a unit of a Hydra and Beastmasters. A Salamander is not a Skink. A Hydra is not a Beastmaster. If you do two wounds to the rank and file handlers, then that it two wounds on the rank and file handlers.

Lord Khabal
21-11-2008, 15:18
I do believe they transfer from beastmaster to beastmaster/skink to skink/CHDwarf to CHDwarf (Hellcannon)

Can I ask you guys another thing about the hydra? Why does it has hatred? Isn't it only the beastmasters? The hydra is not a mount or a DElf, so why does it transfers?

Gazak Blacktoof
21-11-2008, 19:23
It doesn't, the war hydra has the eternal hatred rules in the bestiary, check out p. 58.


Re-reading the second part of the eternal hatred rule, (p. 43) as it pertains to fighting high elves, it does say that only dark elves get to re-roll missed attacks in every round of combat (as opposed to all models with the eternal hatred rule). Dark Elves here might mean anything in the dark elf book though.

DeathlessDraich
24-11-2008, 10:33
Well, you tell us, what do you do when you find a unit in combat with a unit of Salamanders, and have a choice of attacking either the handlers or the monsters?

Do you end up killing a maximum of one handler and one Salamander in base contact? No. You allocate the attacks - some of them are mandatory, as you might not be in contact with both beast and skink - , and if you do X wounds on the Skinks, then X Skinks die. Then if you do Y wounds on the Salamanders, then they take Y wounds after saves, which may carry over.

The basic concept, is that there are TWO types of rank and file models in a unit of Salamanders and Skinks, and in a unit of a Hydra and Beastmasters. A Salamander is not a Skink. A Hydra is not a Beastmaster. If you do two wounds to the rank and file handlers, then that it two wounds on the rank and file handlers.

Yes, I would play it that way because it is fair and logical but not because it has rules support.


This doesn't seem to follow with the normal procedure for attacking*. If I decide not to attack a character and instead attack the Rank and File next to him, I've made a choice, you seem to characterise this as allocation of attacks to a specific model rather than a group of models. Multi-attack models in contact with a character or champion would get shafted fairly quickly if this was applied broadly.

When you attack the handlers you are doing just that, there's no need to stipulate that you're attacking a specific handler most of the time - destroyer of eternities and similar effects being an exception.

Handlers aren't champions and they aren't characters so there should be no need to attack them individually and no reason why wounds wouldn't carry between them. As you said some assumption has to be made about wounds not carrying between the monster and handlers but those are reasonable and not many people would disagree.


*But perhaps the rules don't support it either.

The problem is:
pg 32 rules - a model can be singled out to be attacked if the player specifically chooses that model.
And the Hydra's rules states that attacks against the Beastmater/s are specifically allocated.

Although I'm inclined to follow the rules above strictly, I feel this situation does warrant some discussion and agreement between players because the rules are insufficient.

2 scenarios:

1) If one Beastmaster is attacked and the other cannot be attacked, I would be reluctant to allow wounds to transfer from one Beastmaster to another.

2) If *both* Beastmasters are attacked then I would allow wounds to be transferred if my opponent insists on it.

Gazak Blacktoof
24-11-2008, 11:36
1) If one Beastmaster is attacked and the other cannot be attacked, I would be reluctant to allow wounds to transfer from one Beastmaster to another.


I'm not sure why you think that's an important distinction, it isn't important with any other unit.

For example if I've clipped a unit of cavalry 'C' with infantry 'X', cavalry that are unengaged by the infantry would still die as you remove casualties from the outer edges toward the centre.

CCCCCCCC
----XXXXX
----XXXXX
----XXXXX

Cavalry 'C' would be the first to die even though one of them can't be attacked.

blindingdark
26-11-2008, 14:50
Correct me if im wrong (which i probs am)
but dont CC attacks HAVE to be allocated against the Hydra ?

is that not a special rule for it ? meaning wounds from one would carry over to the other, but only if the hydra wasnt there, as this would be the only way to attack it.

sorry if im wrong, i dont have the book with me.

EvC
26-11-2008, 15:47
They do if possible. If a model is in contact with the Handlers, but not the Hydra, they will be able to allocate their attacks onto the Handlers.

jrodrag
26-11-2008, 18:22
The logic here is pretty simple and several people have stated it already. You are not allocating your attacks against specific models. You are choosing what to attack. When you are fighting any unit with mixed stats you must choose which statline to attack. This is the same with chariots and characters, monstrous mounts, monsters and handlers, etc.... Once you have decided which to attack the wounds you caused would be placed on those types of models. However, because you have chosen to attack the one statline then the wounds would not spill over to the others.

As for the Hydra specifically the only difference from the above is that the choice of whether to attack hydra or beastmaster is taken away from the attacker. Otherwise it is exactly the same.

knightime98
30-11-2008, 03:51
They do if possible. If a model is in contact with the Handlers, but not the Hydra, they will be able to allocate their attacks onto the Handlers.

This issue has come up with our game group. It bears much thinking to figure it out. However, in the BRB - you may only attack those models for which are in base to base contact. Simple enough there, but needs to elaborated just a bit.
Specifically, for the DE Hydra with Beastmasters.

If and/or when a Hydra becomes engaged with the enemy it looks like this...

EEEEEE
EEEEEE
BHHHB

E = Enemy with spears (that CAN attack in two ranks) - Also further comment added below.
E= Enemy unit, rank and file troops (take your choice)
B= Beastmasters, Dark Elf
H= Hyrda, Dark Elf

1. The Dark Elf army book says that, IF an enemy model is able to attack the hydra then it must do so rather than attacking a beastmaster.
2. Note that the E shows models that can attack the lone beastmaster on that side - as it is not base to base with the hydra. So, they must attack the beast master only! - Ironic, but this is the way it goes. Furthermore, those 2 attacks are directed specifically unto the one beastmaster (like a champion, or a hero). Now, this is a point of contention that will bear further merit. I am sure that some will point out that the 2nd beastmaster will be killed if two wounds are caused... However, the rule is if you are not base to base with the model then you can not attack it... So, how are they reaching across the Hydra (in our example) to kill a beastmaster. When in fact, if they did so, why then would they not attack the hyrda.. You see it's a catch 22 here... In my opinion - our club plays it where you must allocate each attack on each model for these very reasons. Furthermore, the T of the Hydra and crew are different - along with Saves and Regen.

So, there is it from my viewpoint. I am sure that I will get further comments about how it is either wrong or right - but once again - it is my opinion how it should be played... And for the most part, the BRB supports the philosophy behind it... Of course, that is also subject to debate...

Gazak Blacktoof
30-11-2008, 04:14
What prevents wounds carrying obver from one beastmaster to another?

As several people have already argued the beastmasters are rank and file in a unit with multiple profiles. You can attack the beastmasters in the same manner as attacking skink handlers, salamanders, ungors or gors. There's nothing to suggest that the handlers, salamanders, gors or ungors are anything other than rank and file, so wounds transfer between the same model type as they do for every other unit.

Champions are excempt from this transfer, these models are not champions.

You say that you can only kill models in BTB contact. If your character with 7 attacks charges into a unit is he restricted to killing only the 2 or 3 models he is touching? No, of course he's not.

kaulem
30-11-2008, 09:27
thx for all the feedback

Still no consensus though, can someone from the direwolf council add it to the FAQ list?

EvC
30-11-2008, 12:36
However, the rule is if you are not base to base with the model then you can not attack it... So, how are they reaching across the Hydra (in our example) to kill a beastmaster.

Complete rubbish. The rules explicitly state that a model can kill more of a unit than it is in base contact with, even making the effort to illustrate a situation where a model darts forwards to be able to kill more than the one or two models it starts off in contact with.