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View Full Version : Learning to play without Vanhels, VC 2k



Oberon
20-11-2008, 16:21
After some fiddling about with the army builder, I came up with this army. It seems nice on the paper and has only one big risk that I could not negate without changing the lords buildup a lot, which I did not want to do. The risk? Having to play without Vanhels danse Macabre! :eek::eek:
Anyway, I decided that the lore has almost only great spells, and with 3 levels I'm bound to get one good spell to spam. I don't have mastery power, as I did not have points for it, good and bad. Bad: can't raise my obligatory core units, good: can focus fully on other spells. The spell of choice has been in the 2 test games: raise dead. I usually only used it for redirection and table quarters, but with this I'm having to learn to use them for all kinds of things. Anyhow, onto the list:

Heroes:
Lord: lvl3, dread knight, Master of black arts, skullstaff, cadaverous cuirass, power stone *7 dice, maybe 9=a lot of zombies or Vanhels if I'm lucky. Also can handle pretty much anything that comes his way, from the black knight bunker he is hiding in*
Necromancer: IoN, 2 scrolls *the must have scroll-caddy*
Wight king: barded steed, BSB, Drakenhof banner *keeps company for the lord*

Core:
10 ghouls *somewhy you have to have 3 core regiments...*
10 ghouls *above*
20 zombies: musician *my main frontline regiment, so that the necromancer has something to do, when lord raises the dead, they tend to get too far from the necro*
5 dire wolves
5 dire wolves *something to keep BK safe*

Special:
8 Black knights: barding, musician, standard (of hellfire) *the main combat unit, with fire can take on anything except high elves*
4 fell bats

Rare:
1 varghulf
5 blood knights: musician, standard (of blood keep) *the super-expensive right wing of the attack*
=~2000, could have been 3 points less.
I have played once against DE (8 levels of magic), they could not handle all the knights while I summoned a couple of 20+ sized zombie hordes on their face to distract. Another game was against bretonnia, zombies managed to bait a lance to expose the flank for blackies, and they steamrolled the whole army afterwards. Not a real game really, it was over so soon :rolleyes: A rematch coming up soonish, maybe I'll then get the vanhels dance too... Lord's build is kind of made to spam vanhels, with no insurance to getting it :D

Malorian
20-11-2008, 16:32
I think that's the first time I saw dreadknight with the skullstaff.

I'm assuming by the numbers that you put both mounted characters in the black knights, and if that's right I'd suggest not doing that. The amount you pay for an ectra rank isn't worth it.

Personally I'd drop the skullstaff, take the blooddrinker, and put the lord with the blood knights. Then turn the hellfire banner into the banner of double unit strength (you'll pretty much auto break everything), and with the BSB run them about 7 wide.

Looks like it wuold be fun though.

Oberon
20-11-2008, 16:47
Yes, I'm putting both mounted characters with the black knights, but I'm not taking them for the rank bonus. The reason I take so many, is to keep the points and especially the characters safe. The rank bonus is just that, a bonus.
I'm not putting my lord to a frenzying, very small knight unit, after first casualty he would be the target for every cannonball there is, and desperate to get into CC. I'm still learning to play with blood knights, with 1/1-result I'm not confident enough to put the lord in there. The black knight unit is basically a bunker on rollerscates, that hits very hard while keeping characters safe. The knights are already pretty much autobreaking everything, especially if I did not have to spend all my PD spamming vanhels to get in. US20 and lot of attacks to reduce the enemy usually results in overnumbering. The 2xUS-banner is great, I use it when playing with more foot soldiers, as then black knights are reduced to 6, acting as a flanking party without characters. But not this time. I'd like to take a warbanner for them, but flames are IMO needed. Could be wrong.

Skullstaff is actually very nice item, and it helps keeping the unit and the army moving, if only I could roll the vanhel. I have used those two together some time now, often regretting while not having it in. Maybe I'm arrogant or stupid in believing that the black knights wont be dying a lot, and so not needing the blood drinker, but then I have only lost the unit once thus far, when GUO killed first the BSB and then the lord with balesword.

Thank you for commenting though, sorry for not making any of the changes but hopefully I at least clarified why I didn't.

Malorian
20-11-2008, 17:07
The only problem with putting the lord in with the black knights is then that huge unit can't take advantage of being able to move through terrain.

I'm not a fan of a lord in blood knights either, but then again I'm not a fan of bloodknights inthe first place ;) Just seems the better of two evils.

You could always drop a few black knights to get more bloodknights (even just one more would make a big difference). Then it would be safer for the lord.

Oberon
20-11-2008, 17:28
I have solved the etherealnes-problem like this: deploy the BK behind some woods out of sight with the WK, and the lord next to them. First turn march the BK through the forest, and the lord around it, joining the BK after it. Of course this is only a solution for the first piece of woods, but there isn't too much terrain here (one piece every quarter usually), it hasn't been a huge disadvantage yet.

I'm still on the fence with blood knights too. Having just bought them (still painting them), I'm not too keen to drop them but the frenzy, small unit size and huge cost does make using them a bit harder.

I might do that, but no the models available become an issue. I make my blood knights from the plastic chaos knights, I'm not buying another set of 5 for one, yet (a regiment of 10 or so blood knights, now that would be hard...), and I'm still hoarding bits for more black knights so they can't be enlargened either. They will be, some day.

madival
20-11-2008, 20:02
I will tell you my first experience on blood knights. My friend and I both played a game with VC. he took black knights, and I the blood knights. I got a lucky charge off(black nights werent barded and had 2 inch farther charge range.) Without a champion or charecter,(but banner of strigoes) they killed 8 of 10 knights(rest died to combat resolution) and completly destroyed anything they touched.(averageing 10-12 wounds a turn) all u need to do is screen them with dire wolves(2 to 3 units of them) and they can take the entire flank. give them a fighting lord with dread lance and red fury and you have a unite that can produce 24 str 7 attacks a turn with 6 people.
With 330 point unit, they killed roughly 50% of the enemy force the was bogged down in my skeletons. This was in a 1000 points game.

Oberon
21-11-2008, 17:00
So you took a 300+ points unit in a 1000points game against another army that can't flee from your charges? No surprise then that it went well. Sounds a bit like a 750pts tourney here where the winner had something like 2 engineers, 4-5 regiments and one or two ratling guns, while his contenders had a lot of wraiths... I mean, really balanced builds in small games, where the opponent is not having enough points for a decent answer to your big unit. In 2k there are other lords, rares, and generally more things that can kill stuff, so one unit isn't the answer all the time. Maybe. That is why I take 3.

Thank you anyway, good to know that BK are killy for others too :)