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View Full Version : SM Scout sergeants, I dont get it...



Hlokk
22-11-2005, 14:45
Right, a marine starts his training as a scout and then, once he's proven himself, he goes on to become a marine. This is the way I've been reading the fluff for years.

I then thought, hang on a second, what about the scout company sergeants and commander? Where exactly do they fit into this heirachy? are the sergeants members of the first company who train the initiates, or is it natural progression from scout to sergeant to marine?

Can someone please clear this up for me, Its driving me nuts.

Inquisitor Samos
22-11-2005, 15:02
The sergeants of the 10th Company are veteran Marine sergeants, who have been assigned or have volunteered to undertake the training of the Chapter's Scouts.

The same is true of the 10th Company Captain: a proven veteran Marine, as is the case with any Company Captain, who in this case leads the training Company of the Chapter.

(The above refers to Codex and presumably to near-Codex Chapters. Some Chapters may approach the training of neophytes a little bit differently, as seems the case with the Black Templars; other Chapters, notably the Space Wolves, may do things concerning their Scouts considerably differently!)

El_Machinae
22-11-2005, 15:31
Think about some movies, where the "Sarge" is this nigh-omniscient battle machine. Movies from "Doom" to "Tour of Duty" has the "Sarge" being an older, hard-bitten, survivor.

Now imagine what this person is like, considering he's also a Space Marine.

It's a position of honor, and a position of shame. Being a Scout Sergeant means that the Marine is tough and wise enough to mold the future of the Chapter. OTOH, being the Sergeant means that he won't see elite action, and has to coddle babies through milk runs.

I imagine it's a rotated position, one that a marine 'qualifies' for after being around for awhile. It's probably forced upon the Veteran (because they want to do the Elite actions), but the rest of the Chapter respects him (and probably holds him in awe, since quite a few of them were whiped into shape by him)

d4m0s4n
22-11-2005, 15:35
It's a position of honor, and a position of shame.

I hardly think it's a position of shame. If anything I'd imagine that their role is of upmost importance and would only be trusted to the hardest Sgts in the Chapter.

They're undertaking a holy mission after all-- the future of the Chapter depends on their work.

sulla
22-11-2005, 15:37
Scouts don't do 'milk runs'. They face the final crucible of fire to see if they are worthy of the blessing of power armour...

So, raids behind enemy lines, infiltrating enemy camps, boarding tyranid vessels... if these sound like 'milk runs' to you, your marines must be doing something pretty special.

I imagine scout sergeants get the job because they have proven capable of command but also they have skills suited to the type of missions scouts do, i.e. strong independant thinkers, loners to some degre, level headed, rational thinkers... an assault marine sarge can get away with assaulting everything that gets in his way... a scout sergeant must pick his fights more wisely.

Inquisitor Samos
22-11-2005, 15:40
Good one, sulla! I concur.

Khaine's Messenger
22-11-2005, 15:44
Right, a marine starts his training as a scout and then, once he's proven himself, he goes on to become a marine.

That depends somewhat on how you view the Space Marine organizational structure working in the generic case, but that is broadly the assumption (and pretty much directly stated "fact"), yes. Some might argue that the boundary between "scout" and "tactical marine" is not as clean as "neophyte" and "initiate," though.


are the sergeants members of the first company who train the initiates, or is it natural progression from scout to sergeant to marine?

Scout Sergeants are basically normal marines, with the odd Scout Sgt. also having terminator honors and a chin more chiseled than usual. Arguably some of the other scouts in his squad could be veterans of one flavor or another, too. Frankly, that would make a little more sense than the "they are all newbs! *snort*" attitude some people seem to have. SM Scouts are elite. Being a Space Marine is being elite. It's just too sad that the Catachans, Kroot, and Eldar Rangers are the "uber-1337" of infiltrators...but whatcha gonna do....

Kage2020
22-11-2005, 16:55
What I would really like to see is a reason why scouts as defined in the 'fluff' even exist at all. Never seemed to make sense to me, even if the positions of the Veteran Sergeants do. After all, NCOs are the fulcrum of most fighting forces... or so they say! ;)

Kage

ryng_sting
22-11-2005, 17:01
Being assigned to the Scout Company is generally regarded as an honour for a sergeant. Wars come and go, planets can be razed, but no marine ever forgets the sergeant who first led him into war. They are literally safeguarding the chapter's future. Remember an SM scout has to be a gifted warrior to even join up...

zeekphreak
22-11-2005, 17:13
I always thought scouts as something you infiltrate and tie up tough enemies with, like bloodletters and Demon Princes, to slow their advance. Maybe thats why they have such a low survival rate. Guess I have been using them wrong. Seriously though, Scouts are, as someone has already said, not set on "Milk Runs". Usually they are the first to land on a war torn planet, the first into the field, the first to see the enemy, and at times the first to engage the enemy. The Marines come after the positions have been scouted and reported. So that being the case the Veteran Marine that are with the scout got to be tough as nails.

starlight
22-11-2005, 17:26
Background =/= Gameplay.:D

Most of the job of a Scout is over by the time a game of 40K starts. If you use Scouts, think of them as the ones who pinpointed the enemy so the rest of the Marines knew the precise point to attack.

The leaders within the Scout Company are likely the hardest, scariest, most devout Marines in the First Company. They have to be, because unlike the rest of the First, who operate with a hundred other Marines in Terminator Armour with Assault Cannons, the Scout Sergeants and such are going into battle where their decisions are literally life and death *for the entire Chapter*:eek:. Not only can a mistake cost them in battle, but it could also cost them the future of the Chapter *at the same time*:eek:.

And they do this *without* their precious Power Armour.:eek:

Lostanddamned
22-11-2005, 19:41
I see them as being similar to Willem Dafoes charachter in platoon, in command, but much more of a friend to the men.

Other veterans of the chapter probably owe them at least one debt for a careful sniper shot or well placed demo charge before an attack.

sulla
22-11-2005, 20:10
What I would really like to see is a reason why scouts as defined in the 'fluff' even exist at all. Never seemed to make sense to me, even if the positions of the Veteran Sergeants do. After all, NCOs are the fulcrum of most fighting forces... or so they say! ;)

Kage

Sulla's fluff reason;

There are some jobs that a marine chapter requires done that are not best suited to power armoured shock troops. These jobs are incredibly risky and often require a small group of men who can act unsupervised and without the expected levels of logistical support. These roles are well suited to the young initiates of the chapter as they cannot yet wear the high maintenance power armour most troops wear. It is also a sad but true fact that there is a high attrition rate for these missions so is is hardly surprising that the majority of chapter masters do not want to risk experienced marines on them, preferring instead to send the young initiates as a form of trial by fire...

Kage2020
22-11-2005, 20:21
That last, sulla, doesn't seem to make an overt amount of sense if one considers the 'expense' that has gone into the creation of the Scout. On the other hand, if the Scouts are kept out of direct 'front line' combat, insofar as any Marines can be said to do that, then that would make a certain limited amount of sense... Even if they don't have a great deal of time to prove themselves as Marines (i.e. at most a matter of several years).

Kage

El_Machinae
22-11-2005, 21:43
That's why I said "milk runs". To the scout, it's a hellish experience. But to a Marine? Hell, they have already gone through those easy-peasy missions, and now they're on to the hard stuff.

Unless people want to say that Scouts go through tougher missions than Marines?

I've explained why it's a position of shame - the Sergeant isn't allowed to take part in elite missions, at least not yet. Everyone knows that he's essential and tougher than tough, but (while training scouts), he doesn't take part in "Ribbon-placing" campaign action.

NakedFisherman
22-11-2005, 22:08
When do scouts receive a gene seed? Assuming a totally codex chapter with 1000 Marines, are the scouts included in this number or are their numbers separate?

robertsjf
22-11-2005, 22:24
Scouts have every organ except the 19th, the black carapace, if that's what you mean by gene seed.

starlight
22-11-2005, 22:35
Nope, *gene-seed* is the progenoid (:wtf:sp?) glands implanted in the neck and torso.

Flint
22-11-2005, 22:50
When do scouts receive a gene seed? Assuming a totally codex chapter with 1000 Marines, are the scouts included in this number or are their numbers separate?
Scouts are included in the 1000 Marine numbers. All Space Marines receive the Chapter gene-seed when they are Neophytes. At the end of training, but before full initiation as a battle brother, they get inducted into the Scout Company so they can earn their worth and the right to undergo the final transformation - the implantation of the black carapace and the right to wear power armour.

robertsjf
22-11-2005, 23:06
Nope, *gene-seed* is the progenoid glands implanted in the neck and torso.

In that case, the answer is yes, as the only organ the scouts are lacking is the black carapace.

edit: Flint types faster

cailus
22-11-2005, 23:38
But to a Marine? Hell, they have already gone through those easy-peasy missions, and now they're on to the hard stuff.

"Hard stuff" including such important missions as:

1.) Being the ablative shield for the guy with the lascannon or the other guy with the powerfist.
2.) Being sent into battle only cause you can't take an army consisting soley of Librarians or Chaplains in Artificer armour and equipped with master crafted lightning claws.
3.) Being sent into battle only cause you can't take an army consisting soley of Landraider Crusaders.
4.) Being sent into battle with the hope that the marine goes ape and is sent to the Death Company and automatically becomes a hardass. :p

marv335
22-11-2005, 23:56
depending on the fluff you read, the scouts already have the black carapace implanted, however it takes time for it to mature to the point that the power armour interfaces can be fitted.
for good info on the training of a marine, see if you can get hold of a copy of "space marine" by ian watson.

Falkus
23-11-2005, 02:46
Nope, *gene-seed* is the progenoid glands implanted in the neck and torso.

But usually, in the case of scouts, it hasn't matured enough to be harvested, making the death of a scout a double tragedy for the chapter. Not only did they lose a potential space marine and his very valuable organs, but a store of potential geneseed was also lost.

sulla
23-11-2005, 03:42
That last, sulla, doesn't seem to make an overt amount of sense if one considers the 'expense' that has gone into the creation of the Scout.
Kage

These are marines we're talking about... I don't think expense or time come into it at all. All chapters seem to be possessed of infinate cash to replace casualties and material losses.

Besides, the option is always to use the initiates or risk even more valuable fully trained marines in missions that are in all probability, non-combat roles. Remember that most 'commando's' operate behind enemy lines which means they are outnumbered and outgunned. If they are engaged in a firefight, they will in all likelihood be pinned down and eliminated by superior numbers so it could be argued that it is a wast of chapter resources to use any trooper with higher training than the so-called 'scouts'.


That's why I said "milk runs". To the scout, it's a hellish experience. But to a Marine? Hell, they have already gone through those easy-peasy missions, and now they're on to the hard stuff.

Unless people want to say that Scouts go through tougher missions than Marines?
.

Well, boarding a tyranid ship is probably more difficult than much of the shock and awe stuff marines might do...

But by and large, I don't think the role of a scout is not more OR less dangerous than that of a marine... just different. If I had to justify how scouts originally got those roles, I would guess they were roles that traditionally didn't warrant entire marine squads... probably their auxilliaries performed them. But when the Codex Astartes was drafted and Guilleman seperated the branches of the military, he probably assigned them to the junior members of each chapter.

Sulla