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View Full Version : Dark Elf Reverse Wardsave/Killing Blow Question



sephiroth87
24-11-2008, 06:11
Looked through the last 10-15 pages of the rules thread. Saw nothing.

If Skulltaker is fighting in a challenge with a Dark Elf Lord with the reverse wardsave, and skulltaker killing blows the Lord, what kind of reverse ward save does the Lord get? As far as I know, the killing blow takes all the wounds, regardless of strength. and has no modifications on the armor. This is different from poison, where strength still modifies the save.

What is the result?

On a slightly separate note, if skulltaker hits a character with two killing blows and takes a total of 6 wounds (lord fails 2 saves and loses all wounds twice), what is the Combat Res result? One wound? 3? 6?

Necromancy Black
24-11-2008, 06:17
I thought inverse ward save worked by strength, meaning he'd get a saved base on the strength of the attack.

If I'm wrong in the wording indicates it's based on the armour save modifier then there would be no ward save, but I don't think that's how it works.

As too the other question I belive the first killing blow is worth all the wounds they have left and all other killing blows are just a single wound towards overkill, no armour save.
Any non killing blow wounds they will need to make a save for and if they fail it's another wound towards overkill.

I'll have to doublecheck all that too be sure.

Lord Dan
24-11-2008, 06:21
The ward save has nothing to do with the actual killing blow, other than the fact that it's trying to prevent it from occuring. That being said, the ward save works as normal and the character make take a ward save to try and prevent the killing blow based on the strength of the attack.

To answer your second question a model can only be killing blowed once. Black is correct, and only one wound is added to overkill for every subsequent killing blow recieved up to the normal maximum allowed for challenges.

DeathlessDraich
24-11-2008, 09:40
Multiple Killing blows in a challenge involving multiple wound models:

1) There is no consensus on this after umpteenth discussions.

2) My opinion is the same as the ones above:

When a model is automatically slain from Killing blow, all his wounds are counted and contribute to combat resolution. A second, third or more Killing blows can only then inflict one overkill each.

{Comments: Killing blow states that it pg 93 “automatically slays” and “no...saves are allowed against this wound” which might seem to indicate that KB inflicts one wound only.

However pg 31 shows that the term ‘killed’ [or slain] is the same as ‘casualty’ – “for our purposes the result is the same, we treat all casualties as if they were killed”.

Multiple casualties rules then show that a casualty has all its wounds inflicted.
Therefore Killing blow must cause all wounds to be inflicted}

Lord Dan
24-11-2008, 16:24
I'm pretty sure the rules for multiple killing blow are in an FAQ, though I don't remember if it was Dire Wolf or GW. Does anyone know?

Gazak Blacktoof
24-11-2008, 18:14
It was in a 6th edition FAQ, I can post it if you'd like.

The rules haven't been clarified for 7th edition but the mechanics are identical so its reasonable to assume that the same principles apply- I would even go so far as to say it would be unreasonable to assume that the principles were any different.

TheDarkDaff
26-11-2008, 11:22
It was in a 6th edition FAQ, I can post it if you'd like.

The rules haven't been clarified for 7th edition but the mechanics are identical so its reasonable to assume that the same principles apply- I would even go so far as to say it would be unreasonable to assume that the principles were any different.

Unless you believe GW know what they are doing then it would be unreasonable to assume the old convention should still take place without it being added to the rules.

yoshimo
26-11-2008, 12:42
funnily enough I don't think anyone has ever disputed this in a game with me.
KB inflicts a single wound for the purpose of ward saves but converts into the models wounds for CR. Multiple KB's do not stack for CR.
(unless your inflicting 4 KB's on a 3W model which is a circumstance i've never seen, but I assumed +4 CR would be the way and not +6 or +12)

Gazak Blacktoof
28-11-2008, 12:00
Unless you believe GW know what they are doing then it would be unreasonable to assume the old convention should still take place without it being added to the rules.


Yes, and if Warhammer 6th and 7th editions were distinct entities (rather than a progression of the same mechanics) then it would be fair to consider a different meaning, but they aren't.


@Yoshimo

According to the old commentary you'd score +6 combat resolution for inflicting 4 KBs on a model with 3 wounds (provided of course the model was man-sized or else eligible to be killed with the killing blow).

+3 for the first KB and +1 for each successive KB.

TheDarkDaff
28-11-2008, 14:44
Yes, and if Warhammer 6th and 7th editions were distinct entities (rather than a progression of the same mechanics) then it would be fair to consider a different meaning, but they aren't.

BUt the whole point of a new edition is that it will change the rules. If you keep bringing the old conventions then you can't change the rules. I know i use old rules that are not supported anymore by the rules when i play and this falls in the same category.

You have to look at each edition as pretty much starting from scratch (otherwise it is unfair to new gamers). If they want an FAQ or errata to come into the new edition they should change the rule to reflect this, otherwise it implies they don't want that convention used anymore.

Back on topic slightly i do still use the old FAQ Gazak is talking about (i think it makes the most sense) but i ask about it before the game (i have a list of unclear rules that i go through before playing - it helps in stores against younger players).

If you can't tell i firmly believe GW don't do the greatest job with the rules but they are fine if you talk to your opponent before the game.

nosferatu1001
28-11-2008, 15:49
Each edition is self contained - if it weren't then how would newbies start? Do you expect them to find eds 1 - 6 to understand the progression?

Back on topic - it states 1 wound is caused, no more no less. it does not state you get all the remaining wounds for CR purposes. While it may be logical that it would do, as was stated no consensus was reached, especially RAW vs RAI. It's spmething worth discussing!