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dsw1
24-11-2008, 19:26
Hello, I am currently in a tournament at my local GW, and I am writing myself a new list (as is in the rules) but I can not figure what is best to equip a Sorcerer Lord with? Within this current tournament, the evil side is winning and thus gets +1 to cast all spells, and +1 Pd.

Now, I will state some guide lines;
1)NO Mark of Tzeentch. I refuse to use it, if I where going to choose a mark it would be Mark of Nurgle, and no other mark.
2)He will be on a Chaos steed, as it fits in the army (No daemonic mount, or on foot).

I have been toying with ideas as follows;

1)Sorcerer lord - LV4 - Conjoined Homunculus - barded steed - Spell familiar, Book of Secrets, Sword of might, collar of Khorne.

The basic plan for this guy was to be exactly the same as a Chaos knight champion (hence the Sword of might) but know all the spells from either Fire, Shadow or Death. Basically a LV6 caster (as he gets the extra Pd from winning in the tournament and Book of secrets). I was thinking of this in case I came across another large beast I couldn't handle, I could pit of shades it. Against a hoard, I could use Wall of fire etc. I also, only chose the Collar of Khorne for the Magic Res (2) for my unit of knight to make them that little tougher.

2) Sorcerer lord - LV4 - Conjoined Homunculus - barded steed - infernal puppet, Rod of Torment, sword of might, Mark of Nurgle.

I would use the infernal puppet and combine it with the Black tongue that is equipped to a lower levelled wizard. Again I would use this guy as a unit champion but have the bound spell as a nasty little surprise after they use all their DD, or even make them waste DD on it thus making the rest of my magic easier to get through.

Anyway, after these two, I was just hoping people could give me ideas on how to equip my guy. I am stuck on what to give him and would appreciate all the help you can give.

Many regards,

Dsw1

Neknoh
24-11-2008, 20:29
May I ask as to why you refuse the Mark of Tzeentch? I am well aware that it is not needed and that the Lore of Tzeentch is situational on occasion, however, if you WOULD pick the Mark of Tzeentch and either give him, or keep him close to, a caster with the Skull of Katam, arming him with the Homunculous, we would be talking +3 to cast and +3+D3 for Gateway, meaning you should be getting it off on three, yes, 3 dice very often due to the mean value on 3 dice being allong the lines of 10.5, 2 on a D3 for 12.5+3=15.5

Now, if not taking the Mark of Tzeentch, I would still rather be looking at loosing the Black Tongue from the lower level caster in favour of the Skull of Katam, the Lore of Nurgle has very low casting values compared to most, and +2 (there a 3+ to cast) to the very first spell for EVERY Nurgle caster within 3" of the user of the Skull is a boon too great NOT to take, that my friend, is a 3+ "Your model looses a wound".

And yes, I do like the second one better, the first one is a cool idea, however, lest the puppet is present on the table, I would not risk the Book on a Sorceror Lord. I would also consider giving him a somewhat better save, the sword of might is a very nice option, turning him into a souped up chaos knight, however, he does lack somewhat in survivabillity atm.

Fenix_
24-11-2008, 20:47
I like best the first, but only if you equip the other wizard with the puppet; and without the MoT, you can drop the collar of khorne (unless you need the dispell dice), and put the MoN

Jmznudd
24-11-2008, 21:01
I don't like the Book of Secrets concept... only because I never fail to roll a damned miscast.

Try this: Infernal Puppet; Armor of Morslieb; Sword of might. Nice striking, a good ward save against everything but magic, and 10 pts left over.

dsw1
24-11-2008, 21:17
May I ask as to why you refuse the Mark of Tzeentch? I am well aware that it is not needed and that the Lore of Tzeentch is situational on occasion, however, if you WOULD pick the Mark of Tzeentch and either give him, or keep him close to, a caster with the Skull of Katam, arming him with the Homunculous, we would be talking +3 to cast and +3+D3 for Gateway, meaning you should be getting it off on three, yes, 3 dice very often due to the mean value on 3 dice being allong the lines of 10.5, 2 on a D3 for 12.5+3=15.5

Now, if not taking the Mark of Tzeentch, I would still rather be looking at loosing the Black Tongue from the lower level caster in favour of the Skull of Katam, the Lore of Nurgle has very low casting values compared to most, and +2 (there a 3+ to cast) to the very first spell for EVERY Nurgle caster within 3" of the user of the Skull is a boon too great NOT to take, that my friend, is a 3+ "Your model looses a wound".

And yes, I do like the second one better, the first one is a cool idea, however, lest the puppet is present on the table, I would not risk the Book on a Sorceror Lord. I would also consider giving him a somewhat better save, the sword of might is a very nice option, turning him into a souped up chaos knight, however, he does lack somewhat in survivabillity atm.

I don't really like the Tzeentchian lore, and the fact that if you take the mark of Tzeentch you have to pick that lore is what puts me off. If I wanted to carry on with my Flickering fires on 3+ and other such spells I would have kept playing my daemon army (3 Tzeentch heralds, 3 units of 10 horrors etc.) but I fancied a change, and from that I went to my Favourite of the Chaos Gods, Grandfather Nurgle. Although it would be sweet casting Gateway on 3 dice, I know that every single dispel scroll will be aimed at that one spell (assuming I get it). Plus the fact I only have 4pd for him makes it that little less tempting to want to cast (assuming I don't use my pool dice).

You know that is a brilliant idea, Skull of Katam seems like an obvious choice now. I originally never took it because I though "paying 50pts for +1 to cast is ridiculous", but I never really thought about it properly till now.
The reason for my obsession with the black tongue is because I played an army not to long ago who pulled this tactic off of making me miscast then sending my caster into oblivion, it seemed like a very good tactic. I used it in my last game against ogres and got it so he could not cast Stubborn from any of his wizards which won me the game really (Made the Tyrant run after killing 3 bulls from my attacks).

I do agree that he does lack a good save (2+), and I was thinking of changing that for a better save (or even a ward) but that would mean I would have to lose something that would take away from my sorcerers main objective, and that is to cast spells.

Thank you for your advice, I shall take it all on board (and every one else's who has or will contribute) and come up with a decent idea. I am currently going for the Skull of Katam idea (take a wound on 3+ is to good to pass up, I suppose I will never need to roll on the eye of the gods ;)).


I don't like the Book of Secrets concept... only because I never fail to roll a damned miscast.

Try this: Infernal Puppet; Armor of Morslieb; Sword of might. Nice striking, a good ward save against everything but magic, and 10 pts left over.
The book concept was originally thought up to beat Suneater with pit of shades (if I had all 6 spells, then pit would definitely be there), but I realised it can be does quite as easily with Cloying Quagmire.

I was toying with this idea also, but the armies I face usually include lots of magical attacks (from dwarves and WE to daemons and WoC knight armies, and Blood knight heavy VC), I feel the ward against none magical attacks may not be of that much use :(, Shame it can't be mixed with Chaos rune shield eh?

Neknoh
24-11-2008, 22:21
If you could post the makeup of your other sorcerors inside of the list, it would be a lot easier to discuss what to give and what to remove from your Sorceror Lord, having one sorceror hold the rod, another the Skull would allow you to reposition items on the Lord.

If you want to keep the puppet on the Lord as well as the sword, we have 45 points to toy with, for protection, we could throw out the Sword of Might in favour of the Axe of Khorne, still 25 points to go, same strength and killing blow, perhaps the Helmet of Many Eyes then? Since I can easely see the Humonculus being used almost every face, Stupidity to start with wont do that big a difference. Furthermore, striking first with 3 strength 5 attacks and Killing Blow is indeed a charming outlook for a sorceror to protect himself with. The Rending Sword would otherwise be a nice option, able to reroll failed to wound rolls is always nice, especially with strength 4.

We could otherwise keep the Rod on the sorceror and give the puppet to a level 2, this would allow us to drop the Sword of Might and pick up one of the following items or combos:

Chaos Runesword
- strongest of the weapon options, four strength five attacks and more weaponskill is better than most other options unless you expect to be taking hits from heavely armoured cavalry.

Aethersword
- worse than the runesword, however, it can well proove to help you take out that one or two Knights to clear off enemies from Base to Base contact should the sorceror be placed on the edge of a unit of Knights himself.

Axe of Khorne
- A "sort of" combination between the two above.

Rending Sword
- Can be combined with a Warrior or Spell familliar since we will be giving the puppet away, both options have their uses in increasing either survivabillity or castabillity of the sorceror.

For survivabillity, we also have a handful of options:

Both the Enchanted Shield and the Talisman of Protection can be combined with The Blood of Tzeentch, which could well allow you easier casting of your spells since you have the +2 from the Skull being nearby and both offer their own form of survivabillity.

We always have the Crown of Everlasting Conquest to help us, shiny as always it is, yesyes.

You could also consider the Armour of Damnation, rerolling hits might actually be good on occasion, will have a 50% chance of causing most hits to miss him, if my maths are correct, normal attacks will then have a 25% chance of ACTUALLY hitting him rather than 50%.



Failing all else, merely replace the Sword of Battle with an Enchanted Shield

DasKhorne
25-11-2008, 00:50
My sorcerer lord alwats does well with:

rune sword, power familiar and conjoined haemonculus and MOT and Disc.
Lvl 4 wizard collar of khorne

He is mobile magic and can deal with enemie skirmishers or flankers ez.

dsw1
25-11-2008, 10:56
If you could post the make up of your other sorcerers inside of the list, it would be a lot easier to discuss what to give and what to remove from your Sorceror Lord, having one sorcerer hold the rod, another the Skull would allow you to reposition items on the Lord.

I generally make up my level 2 wizards depending upon what My lord has. I use 2 other sorcerers (plus one exalted champion that goes into one unit of knights), and I generally have at least 2 scrolls, as I face quite a few magic heavy armies. If I where to choose a Combat lord, then all magic points go onto Dispel scrolls.



If you want to keep the puppet on the Lord as well as the sword, we have 45 points to toy with, for protection, we could throw out the Sword of Might in favour of the Axe of Khorne, still 25 points to go, same strength and killing blow, perhaps the Helmet of Many Eyes then? Since I can easely see the Humonculus being used almost every face, Stupidity to start with wont do that big a difference. Furthermore, striking first with 3 strength 5 attacks and Killing Blow is indeed a charming outlook for a sorceror to protect himself with. The Rending Sword would otherwise be a nice option, able to reroll failed to wound rolls is always nice, especially with strength 4.

You raise a good point about the helm here, I may consider it, but as for the axe of Khorne, While killing blow seems threatening, it did me little good in my last game (I did use the Axe of Khorne, but I came against Ogres). I was thinking of: Skull of Katam, Sword of might, Helm of many eyes after your suggestion, and maybe the puppet (if I really need it) can go onto another fellow caster. The prospect of casting curse of the leper o an 8 seems very nice ;)



We could otherwise keep the Rod on the sorceror and give the puppet to a level 2, this would allow us to drop the Sword of Might and pick up one of the following items or combos:

Chaos Runesword
- strongest of the weapon options, four strength five attacks and more weaponskill is better than most other options unless you expect to be taking hits from heavely armoured cavalry.

Aethersword
- worse than the runesword, however, it can well proove to help you take out that one or two Knights to clear off enemies from Base to Base contact should the sorceror be placed on the edge of a unit of Knights himself.

Axe of Khorne
- A "sort of" combination between the two above.

Rending Sword
- Can be combined with a Warrior or Spell familliar since we will be giving the puppet away, both options have their uses in increasing either survivabillity or castabillity of the sorceror.

Although the Chaos rune sword seems like a good investment, I don't think it will really work on my Nurgle sorcerer. This is only because I am paying 30 points for an extra attack (as since they are at -1 ws, I will generally be hitting on 3's anyway (against nearly all infantry Including Chaos warriors), and I don't think that is really worth it when he will be being accompanied by 5 Chaos knights of Nurgle.

The Aether sword is good, but I feel I don't really have enough attacks for it to be effective. Against any form of knight (or armoured troop) I can see it being, but with 3 attacks I don't know. I know any knight unit that charges me will have a 4+ save (assuming it is 2+ to begin with) from my knights, so I think I may look further into this one.

Axe of Khorne, I didn't feel I had enough attacks for killing blow to be effective, and I was paying 25pts for it (plus I was fighting ogres last game). May see about this.

Re-rolling to wound is good, but only if you haver enough attacks to re-roll, which my guy doesn't at the moment. Ah if onlyI could have a Rune of fury or two ;)



For survivabillity, we also have a handful of options:

Both the Enchanted Shield and the Talisman of Protection can be combined with The Blood of Tzeentch, which could well allow you easier casting of your spells since you have the +2 from the Skull being nearby and both offer their own form of survivabillity.

We always have the Crown of Everlasting Conquest to help us, shiny as always it is, yesyes.

You could also consider the Armour of Damnation, rerolling hits might actually be good on occasion, will have a 50% chance of causing most hits to miss him, if my maths are correct, normal attacks will then have a 25% chance of ACTUALLY hitting him rather than 50%.

Failing all else, merely replace the Sword of Battle with an Enchanted Shield

The first combination was one that I was considering, but a 6+ ward save isn't the greatest. If I where to take the Mark of Tzeentch then it would be worth it, but since I won't, I am not going to bother with that. The blood of Tzeentch and Enchanted shield combo seems quite good, I may try that for an overall 0+ save (and on a sorcerer that is amazing), and with the 55pts left I could always get myself Regeneration.

Armour of Damnation is good, but not many people target my character for some reason, they are more concerned with the Knights about to knock down their door, then again I can't really blame them.

There are too many good combinations and not enough Magic Item allowance :confused:

Thank you for your input, I will take this on board as well.


My sorcerer lord alwats does well with:

rune sword, power familiar and conjoined haemonculus and MOT and Disc.
Lvl 4 wizard collar of khorne

He is mobile magic and can deal with enemie skirmishers or flankers ez.

While this does sound like a good Chaos Sorcerer Lord, I won't be able to have the Disc due to my Firm refusal of the Mark of Tzeentch. It was similar to my last set up for my Sorcerer Lord (but with the Axe of Khorne instead) and he preformed quite well, but not really magnificently.

I will take what I can from your advice too, any and all help extra will be appreciated. Please help as much as you can tonight as I need the list finished by morning.

Thank you all.

Mike3791
25-11-2008, 12:32
Can a lvl4 sorceror with a power familiar cast 6 dice in a turn?

W0lf
25-11-2008, 12:57
i play:

Sorcerer lord lvl 4
MoT, Daemon sword, enchanted shield,Barder steed.
404 pts

He rides in a block of chaos knights usually. Wtih an average of 6 S6 attacks he hits as hard as any armies lords (but with ws 5) and with a potential for 9 S7 which surpases a chaos lord w/o this weapon.

Plus against S5 he has a 2+ save still.

So when hitting himself at S5 he rarely wounds himself. At S6 its still a 3+ save and etc.

Ofc for your needs drop the MoT and trust me, he works.

decker_cky
25-11-2008, 19:01
May I ask as to why you refuse the Mark of Tzeentch? I am well aware that it is not needed and that the Lore of Tzeentch is situational on occasion, however, if you WOULD pick the Mark of Tzeentch and either give him, or keep him close to, a caster with the Skull of Katam, arming him with the Homunculous, we would be talking +3 to cast and +3+D3 for Gateway, meaning you should be getting it off on three, yes, 3 dice very often due to the mean value on 3 dice being allong the lines of 10.5, 2 on a D3 for 12.5+3=15.5

I feel like I must be taking crazy pills, but isn't it just +2 to cast? I only see mark of tzeentch and skull of katam.

Also, I'd recommend the homunculus on a supporting caster rather than on your lord, since at Ld8, you'll be losing the casting on your L4 about 1/4 of the time....which is brutal to say the least. On a L2 out of commission, you can still maintain an offensive magic phase.

Another thing I'd consider on a L4 caster is the favour of the gods, since it gives you a roll if you kill a large target. Not easy, but it gives you the potential for a nice boost if you blast a giant or whatever, and it's only 5 pts.

Neknoh
25-11-2008, 19:07
He has retained a +1 to Cast and Dispell from his campaign

As such, skull + tzeentch + bonus = +3 to cast

decker_cky
25-11-2008, 19:30
Ok....so next time read the original post more carefully. :P

For my set of casters...I'm thinking of the following:
L4 Tz Sorceror w/ Infernal Puppet, Favour of the Gods, Disc, Golden Eye, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield
L2 Tz Sorceror w/ Black Tongue,
L2 Tz Sorceror w/ Skull of Katam, Conjoined Homunculous, Steed

Keep them close together early in the game for +2 to cast all spells, then split them up when that becomes more useful. Slightly over 800 pts, which isn't cheap, but considering how easily you can spend points in WoC, it's pretty solid. To bring this onto the topic of the OP, this setup would work without tzeentch, Just put the lord on a steed and take another protective item instead of the golden eye.

Axis
25-11-2008, 23:49
Sometimes it is worth just going cheap on magic items and use more points for other choices. Maybe just a sword of might+enchanted shield, on a steed that is a 0+ armour save. Add a powerstone if you need more offensive ability maybe? Or for more fighting ability use a warrior familiar.

Wizard characters get expensive very fast and i have found that if i max out on magic items/gifts i lose out on other stuff. If you only take 50 pts of magic items or something then you are halfway to another unit of marauder horsemen by saving those points.

Grimzilla
26-11-2008, 10:38
I would go for:

Mounted LvL 4 Sorcerer Lord of Nurgle
Crown of the Everlasting
Book of Secrets
Spell Familiar
Conjoined Homunculous

This gives you a nice survivability with 5 nurgle spells, and 1 spell from another lore (pref fireball against regeneration)

Take another sorcerer with Infernal Puppets to counter your Book of Secrets miscasts (changing it to result 7 is fun, OMG A STR 2 HIT ON MY CASTER WHAT SHAL I DO !! :P )

Ophidian
26-11-2008, 10:54
(changing it to result 7 is fun, OMG A STR 2 HIT ON MY CASTER WHAT SHAL I DO !! :P )

If you roll like I do, take your final wound and die...

Grimzilla
26-11-2008, 11:01
L2 Tz Sorceror w/ Skull of Katam, Conjoined Homunculous, Steed

I suggest to put this character on a disc. Because then you have more movability and you can give the bonus to your othercasters more easily just by flying to them. And maybe switch the Conjoined Homunculous for the Bloodcurdling Roar for insane mobile firing platform.

dsw1
26-11-2008, 11:17
Well, I am off to Games Workshop now (Vets night), and I am keeping everyone's suggestions in mind.

Thank you all very much for the replies, if you wish to carry on talking about what combos work with sorcerers then by all means keep this thread going ;).