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ReveredChaplainDrake
28-11-2008, 14:38
After seeing Orks come out and dominate the horde style mentality of Warhammer 40k for months, going on years, as a horde Tyranid player I was disheartened to think that all Tyranids have to their name is big giant monsters. However, Chaos Daemons came out and outdid our Monsters. Then I saw Dawn of War II previews regarding the Tyranids and it got me to thinking what Tyranids do best. They're not horders, monster-spammers, dice-spammers, or anything like that. They're hunters! Contrary to popular belief, they do not see all other species' militant forces as potato chips. They realize, at least on some level, that their prey fights back. And so, I saw that Tyranids had a gaping hole in their playstyle for stealth and ambush-style tactics. The main Tyranid tactic that drove me to this project was plowing a Carnifex into a pile of guys with indiscriminate abandon. That's not hunting. That's swimming.

And so, I set about to rewrite the Tyranid codex with this hunting theme in mind. The Tyranid Codex for 5th edition isn't going to be coming out soon, and TBH there are armies that need it way more than Tyranids do. I just thought I could get something like this tossed around, critiqued, and maybe even house ruled if I can get it balanced out sufficiently.

The documentation I've written up is attached. I haven't added any fluffy flavor text, much less pictures, but this is just about the rules.

EDIT (Dec 4 '08):
Ok, I've gotten a lot of notice about things that look underpowered. How about anything anyone sees as being overpowered? (Including but not limited to potential army lists using the redux.) Because I'm more worried about fixing the broken stuff without breaking more stuff. I did some craaaaaaazy stuff in here...

I am now updating the Redux to include a number of changes, as noted in this (somewhat) comprehensive list:
-Spore Mines: clarifies the explosion of multiple Spore Mines in one turn to resolve simultaneously, adding “as if they were all Blast Weapons fired by the same creature”
-Twin-Linked Bioweapons: first sentence rewritten as “If a Tyranid buys a Twin-Linked close combat bio-weapon or two of the same close combat bio-weapon (both meaning the same thing)”; also, all instances of “Two Spinefists”, “Two Lash Whips”, etc. will be replaced with “Twin-Linked Spinefists”, “Twin-Linked Lash Whips”, and so on
-Scythe tail: changed to “+D3+1 attacks”
-Thornback: clarified to read “each enemy unit in close combat with the equipped creature…”
-Psychic Powers: changed the last sentence in the first paragraph under Psychic Powers to read: “Due to the cold, warp-blotting effect of the Hive Mind, all Tyranid Psykers have a 4+ Invulnerable save against Perils of the Warp and all wounds caused by enemy Psychic Powers.”
-Catalyst: clarified to read “All friendly units with a model within 6” at the beginning of the Assault Phase, including the caster, count as having Flesh Hooks.”
-Strangleweb range specified as “Flamer Template”
-Tyrant Guard change to cost 40 pts base and Ld7
-Tyranid Lictor change cost to 50 pts
-Purestrain Genestealer (both as Elite and HQ retinue) become 18 pts base
-Line-Breaker Carnifex made Ld7 (no points change)
-Gaunts become Ld4 (no points change)
-the option for Gaunts to buy Fleshborers is changed to buying Fleshborers and Enhanced Senses
-Enhanced Senses is removed from the list of Gaunt Biomorphs that may be purchased
-Rippers have the option to take Wings at 6 pts per model
-Gargoyles become BS3 and Ld7 (no cost change)
-Gargoyles lose the Biomorph options for Enhanced Senses and Without Number
-the Bioweapon option for Gargoyles of Two Spinefists is changed to Twin-Linked Spinefists
-Raveners and Marauders both made Ld7 (no points change)
-rules for Tunnelers made more specific
-Tyranid Marauders changed to be equipped with Twin-Linked Scything Talons, and additional Bio-Weapons are added onto this without having to exchange a set of Scything Talons at all
-Winged Tyranid Warriors made 22 pts base
-Support Warriors given the option for Wings (8 pts) and Bonded Exoskeleton (5 pts)
-simplified Individual Beasts rule for Zoanthrpes and Biovores to read “However, otherwise all models in the brood will be treated as if they were their own brood and will operate independently, so long as they remain within 12” of each other.”

Putty
29-11-2008, 09:27
don't agree with the option of purchasing a weapon that is already twin-linked only once.

also, the broodlord and his retinue both do not have fleet, which is primary the issue why they are seldom played.

and too few units can take barbed strangler (which is now no more a template weapon). and is strangleweb a large or regular blast weapon?

ReveredChaplainDrake
29-11-2008, 11:05
don't agree with the option of purchasing a weapon that is already twin-linked only once.

Why, because already-fearsome assault beasts really need the scariest guns to boot? When Hive Tyrants with wings usually use said wings to stay out of close combat, something is clearly wrong. And really, Tyranids as a whole should not be in the business of out-shooting shooty armies.


also, the broodlord and his retinue both do not have fleet, which is primary the issue why they are seldom played.

With Run and Outflank, lacking fleet is a poor reason not to take a Broodlord. What killed it was the fact that, as it stands, the Hive Tyrant can beat the daylights out of anything a reasonable person would take anyway, while Broodlords (and more specifically their retinue) are just way too overkill when it comes to killing targets vulnerable to Rending.

You're taking the Broodlord for the army, not necessarily the Broodlord. Since my Biovores don't suck, losing the 0-3 restriction is actually something that ought to give Carnifexes a run for their money anyway, particularly given that in this redux, Troop Genestealers cannot Scuttle and thus lose out against shooty armies without support. However, with the Broodlord, you can have Scuttling Genestealers as Troops, though as your sole troop would be a bit much.


and too few units can take barbed strangler (which is now no more a template weapon). and is strangleweb a large or regular blast weapon?

The Barbed Strangler should still be a large blast template. Because of 5th's massive boost to big blasts on low-BS units, I ramped up the cost of the Strangler and made the Venom Cannon much cheaper. And it's not that many fewer units that can take the strangler. One Warrior per three can take a Strangler, just like now. Tyrants and non-Line-Breaker Carnifexes can be given Barbed Stranglers. (So yes, I took away the Boomfex. "Heavy" ranged bioweapons always seemed out of place on Elite Carnifexes.) Heck, you can have an entire unit of Tyranid Warriors with Barbed Stranglers.

The Strangleweb is a Flamer template. With cover as rampant as it is in 5th, Tyranids need back in the Flamer market with some actual flame-ish weapon, not like that goofy little Bio-Acid random direction flamer from 3rd.

Max Jet
29-11-2008, 13:48
*Smiles while looking at a fan made Codex written by someone with experience and with an idea in his mind*
*reads it again and again... very carefully*
*thinks that it might be a good idea to discuss it*
*cracks knuckles*

Tyranid Special Rules

Going To Ground

I think going to ground means (please correct me if I am wrong) that the unit absolutely is not allowed to do anything in their next turn. That is a great and unnecessary disadvantage. Furthermore Tyranid units within synapse creatures automatically rally and benefit from a lot of special rules. Now let's assume my gaunts started outside the synapse range, because the enemy killed my Tyranid warriors in the last turn, but quickly as I am, I move the next synapse unit in range of at least one gaunt. But because of the fact, they started their move outside the range I did not want to take a risk and didn't make a LD test. That means my units are immobile for 2 turns, just because of this little circmstance? That is exactly the reason we have "lurking", especially because the unit is STILL allowed to shot in the phase, so please correct it as it is a major loss in the effectivity of the Tyranid army and furthermore only creates problems that never where there or fixes things that where never broken.

Living Ammunition

Rule Lawyer thingie.
"Reroll all FAILED Wounding rolls..." You might never know if forgeworld releases a rending ranged Bio Weapon. THEN my friend you will get problems.

Spore Mines

Why is it not allowed to charge them? They have a stat line, they are a unit, and they move and can destroy other units. Because of that the enemy should have the advantage of giving his unit the extra boost in movement if he is willing to take the risk of getting a model wounded (though with some mines the risk is pretty low).

Spore Mines are mindless, floating baloons. They should not get any advantage from being in synapse other than the creature being able to force an explosion.

Include the rule, that the explosions do not scatter! (very important... we all know those rules lawyers!)

Bio Acid Mines lack the anti tank capacity which is crucial for taking out transports.

Twin link weaponry

One of the great downsides of the Tyranid that does not really help their fluff. Tyranids should dish out a lot of low quality shots, and that is the reason we have a Carnifex with 8 devourer shots. Of course it costs too much for what it does, but that does not mean that the option should be taken away. It just should be more expensive. That really destroys some nice and interesing builds whose only problem where the low costs.

Without number

Be specific. WHOSE Table edge? Of course the Tyranid players table edge and no scuttling special rules, please emphasize that! That would make the unit broken. Also please fix the kill point problem. Just granting the player all the kill points once, because as it stands now the rule is hopeless.

Psychic powers

Perils of the warp.

4+ invulnerable save againts perils of the warp attack, which MUST BE REROLLED IF SUCCESSFUL!!!

Warp Field

5+ save... do not overdo it. Tyranids are not deamons

Catalyst

Only few people take this power nowadays and only few people take flesh hooks. Your goal should have been to make this option more attractive. Currently the distinguish use of these two things helps the Tyranid army in being a variable and felxible. There is simply no use in buying a power, that replaces a biomorph. Keep the rule of Catalyst right now, it really is o.k. and about the flesh hooks... well the point costs... later.

Psychich scream

Nice change of "To the Leadership value" instead of "All leadership tests" But -2 is too much, it would be to powerfull because it is a cumulative effect. You should also add the wording, that this power is cumulative.

Shadow in the warp

No, no! The current rule is o.k. or you could have changed it a little bit, but remember, the Tyranids are no deamons! There is "no peril of the warp" attack. The power is simply annihilated and there are no perils of the warp effect (even not for the Tyranids). Change it into "reroll any succesfull test and annhilite any perils of the warp attack for you and the oponent" or something...

Weapons

Lash whip

Cumulative!

Rending Claws

With or without Bio Plasma?

Scything Talons

There is a tactial reason a Tyranid player has to decide between a bonesword or a second pair of scything talons. By your wording everyone would choose the boneswoord, nevertheless getting the additional two attacks.

Armour Piercing

Please get rid of the rule, that monstrous creatures get an additional armour piercing value. That would encourage the Tyranid player in fielding even more units equiped for range combat. As it stands now, Monstrous creatures with close combat attacks are neglected in favour of creatures with ranged fire power. You should not throw this decision out of balance by helping out those ranged fire power creatures even more. Furthermore the large blast Strenght 8 Barbed Strangler should not have an armour piercing value of 4 nore should the Venom cannon have an armour piercing value of 3 and a strenght of 10.

Biomorphs

Bio Plasma

One Important Character of the Tyranid army is to dish out a lot of hits and shots, but with low quality. Giving them unecessary armour piercing values of 4 for a lot of things would not help them at all against those all present MEQ armies, but still make them more expensive and giving them an advantage, particulary against Rldar and Tau and Stormtrooper heavy Guard or the carapace equipped guard.

Scythe Tail

Potentially 6 attacks extra? That is a little bit much, also a D6 is more randoum than a D3, so keep it D3. It's o.k. that way, just imagine your carnifex with additionally 6 Attacks with strenght 5 that count as power weapon attacks. That is really extreme.

Toxic Miasma

Why is the Miasma so random? (D6?)

Units

Hyve Tyrant

OUCH!
Now you see.. The Tyrant is an effective, resistant and even possibly fast unit, with your options bred for almost all possible roles in an army, capable of mowing down infantery, taking out weaker characters alone or facing tanks easily.
But 65 points? You get an uber killing machine for 65 points? Sure you have to buy lots of stuff extra, but don't you think, that it might be too easy to construct the perfect hunter and all that for a basic 65 points? 75 points would be more like it. I realised the Toughness five, but I am also looking at the potential and the strenght of 6 (which is a lot, it can be upgraded to 7 and then tweaked with the weapon biomorphs enabling him to dish out high quality fire power on a solid platform for very low costs!)
Then there are the wings. You see... these are so good on the Tyrant, even for 35 points, that you have to make them either more expensive (at least 40 - 45 points) or make them "one per army".
Venom cannon on a Tyrant? With 3 S8 attacks even possibly S9? 35 points rather than 30.
Twin linked devourer (if you follow my advice of allowing two twin linked weaponry) ... that would mean then 12 S6, reroll wounds and hits for +45 points? That is simply to inexpensive! 20 points per set at least!
Two lash whips? Does anyone want that? But nethertheless o.k. from my side.
(I know I did not want to point out all the things I like about your codex because there are simply too many things that caught my interest and look just superb but this ONE TIME I have to say it... crushing claws... THE AWESOMENESS!!!!!)
Acid Maw.. acid attacks on a S6 Creature? (Rerolling failed 4+ wounds on almost all the things out there... at least 15 points... I mean... wounding greater deamons on 4+..... jesus!)
symbiotic rippers... saving wounds on a Tyrant (even if it is just the no retraet thing)? At least 2 points a piece please!

Tyrant Guard

I think that 45 points for a unit with T5 and mere 2 wounds, without the customizability of a Tyrant is too expensive. 40 points sound more like it, that would make the unit fieldable. Otherwise I like that unit a lot, I would field them quite happily as an Elite Unit! (daydreaming)
Hold on a second? MONSTROUS CREATURE?
That does not... sound... right... somehow...

Please excuse me... I am so tired... I will continue my post later, because I have to point out all the cool things in your codex and the nice ideas and such... please bear with me.

Putty
29-11-2008, 19:43
I apologise in advance for not putting constructive advice / suggestions like what Max Jet did. It was very late when I typed my post (3 am?) after a LOOooOoong day at work.

But I'll sort all that out now.


Why, because already-fearsome assault beasts really need the scariest guns to boot? When Hive Tyrants with wings usually use said wings to stay out of close combat, something is clearly wrong. And really, Tyranids as a whole should not be in the business of out-shooting shooty armies.

Well, reasons behind having the Hive Tyrant staying out of close combat varies and are valid reasons I am sure. It has to do more with play style, a players knowledge of the effects of close combat (and rules) and also a well learned player will almost never commit to do certain things that will put him at a severe disadvantage and losing an expensive and valuable unit in his army.

I will NEVER assault my Hive Tyrant if:

1. I KNOW I cannot kill all the models in the unit, in 1 assault phase
2. Powerfist type weapons (not so hidden now, but you get the idea)
3. Know you might lose combat (and take a gazillion saves)

You are right, Tyranids should not be in the business of out-shooting "shooty armies" but what is is a shooty army in 40k? ALL armies can/are be shooty in 40k. Tyranids have to ability to shoot, but just not quality shooting. Tyranids should be able to dish out quantity shooting, just not high AP, precision shooting.

As for units having the option to take twin-linked weapons, we can simplify it even further.

Units can only take twin-linked weapons if it is stated in their wargear biomorph options. If there is no twin-linked weapons in their biomorph option. You cannot take any. Simple full-stop.

Taking two twin-linked biomorphs means, you unit has 2 twin-linked weapons. Doesn't mean it is quad-linked (this is for those exceptionally dense people)

I noticed that you gave Devourers AP6 (which is a nice touch) and maxed strength out at St 6 (which is a good thing also) but I disagree on this. For balance issues, I rather they stay AP -. Giving Devourers AP 6 and Max Strength 6 (but only be able to take 1 TL-version) is a step forward and backward at the same time.

Which the majority of the army is already doing. AP5 - 6 or dash. Low BS. Scatter (with low BS means they really scatter!).

Why not just make the Devourer more expensive? That is the reason why Tyranid players seldom take any weapon twin-linked.

Currently:

Twin-linked Barbed Strangler? (30 - 40 points?!?!)
Twin-linked Venom Cannon (70 - 80 points?!?!)

My suggestion is to simply make Devourers more expensive. At the moment, they are 24 points (for a TL version). Bump it up to 35 points (which will mean it will be 70 points to have a pair of TL ones).

The best way (IMHO) to nerf shooting for Tyranids (in this case, the biggest culprit seem to be the Hive Tyrant) is to make its base BS 2. With Enhanced Senses (BS 3) it means you need 4s to hit (reroll yay) and 3s to wound (reroll that too) and you can see (do try it out yourself) that the number of hits it can dish out, drops quite drastically with just one change to the stat-line.

Note that the shooting quality for Tyranids is seldom better than AP5 (bar the Venom Cannon and Biovore Spores... which isn't really shooting O_o). Devourers are AP - and strength 6 max .... which, when equipped on a Carnifex can take out lightly armored tanks or their weapons systems regularly. But you still need to roll 5s and 6s to glance or penetrate (AV 10 - 12). Ditto for Hive Tyrants.

But you still need to assault the tank to kill it (to be sure).

I believe in subtle and simple changes... not drastic ones that the development team in GW occasionally do. Do really consider this. Lower the BS for the main culprits (Tyrant down to 2, Carnifex is already at 2), bump the price for Twin-Linked biomorphs (at least 35% - 40% point increase) but everything else stays the same. These changes actually effect the rest of the army (especially composition) on the long run.


With Run and Outflank, lacking fleet is a poor reason not to take a Broodlord. What killed it was the fact that, as it stands, the Hive Tyrant can beat the daylights out of anything a reasonable person would take anyway, while Broodlords (and more specifically their retinue) are just way too overkill when it comes to killing targets vulnerable to Rending.

You're taking the Broodlord for the army, not necessarily the Broodlord. Since my Biovores don't suck, losing the 0-3 restriction is actually something that ought to give Carnifexes a run for their money anyway, particularly given that in this redux, Troop Genestealers cannot Scuttle and thus lose out against shooty armies without support. However, with the Broodlord, you can have Scuttling Genestealers as Troops, though as your sole troop would be a bit much.

Well in all fairness to the Hive Tyrant... he is the Hive Tyrant... he is supposed to beat the living daylights out of 90% of the stuff out there. The Broodlord is just... a Lord. xD

Sorry... that was a rather corny joke.

A Broodlord is supposed to be a higher version of the Genestealer. It shouldn't lose its ability to fleet. The only reason why he can't fleet... is because he is too fat.

I don't like the Armor save 4+ for the Purestrain either. Cover saves being the super cool feature in 5th edition (doubt it might be around in 6th) it drives the cost of this supposedly elite troop steeply upwords (and genestealers are already very expensive for what they do)

At the moment, they are 16 points base. For 16 points elsewhere, you can have 1 Space Marine, who can shoot (AP4, BS4) have an armor save 3+ able to rapid fire or shoot pretty far. The Genestealer is actually sacrificing the ability to shoot and that armor save (5+) for superior weapon-skill (6) and speed (fleet, initiative 6) and more attacks (2 base).

Three for Three. Fair enough.

If there is any need to modify Genestealers for that pointage you are suggesting, I'd say give them power weapons (like how they were in 2nd edition) and no rending.

Rending actually gives them a chance to take out vehicles (which is rather odd). Take that away and give them power weapons, that will enable them to be real troop killers.

My suggestion, 20 points per 'Stealer. Retain their current Genestealer stat-line (means AS 5+). Give them power weapons. No Rending. Retain biomorph selection (you can opt out Power Weapon attacks for Rending Claws) bump Feeder Tendrils to 3 points. They should fleet also.

But that is the Purestain Genestealers. I would leave the current Genestealer type in there, for variety and as an extra option for players, who want cheaper troops.

As for the Brood Lord, he really needs fleet. So for that, bump him up to 100 points base. And without the option of taking Extended Carapace, he is somewhat balanced.

If the normal Genestealer can't scuttle, I would think that the whole Tyranid army will suffer. My suggestions:

1. Only Genestealer broods that cost under 20 points per model can take the scuttle ability (this includes the cost of scuttle)

2. All Genestealers have scuttle ability for free if there is one Broodlord in play. (Encourages themed army). That means if the Broodlord dies, no more scuttle.

3. Only Purestrains can Scuttle. Normal ones just run around and get shot.

If Genestealers cannot take scuttle, I would think that players would rather just spam hormagaunts (and your version is 12 points each for a maxed out hormagaunt). Losing that ability alone will not justify the cost I would pay for Genestealers, given that hormagaunts and genestealers are very similar (in role and ability).


The Barbed Strangler should still be a large blast template. Because of 5th's massive boost to big blasts on low-BS units, I ramped up the cost of the Strangler and made the Venom Cannon much cheaper. And it's not that many fewer units that can take the strangler. One Warrior per three can take a Strangler, just like now. Tyrants and non-Line-Breaker Carnifexes can be given Barbed Stranglers. (So yes, I took away the Boomfex. "Heavy" ranged bioweapons always seemed out of place on Elite Carnifexes.) Heck, you can have an entire unit of Tyranid Warriors with Barbed Stranglers.

The Strangleweb is a Flamer template. With cover as rampant as it is in 5th, Tyranids need back in the Flamer market with some actual flame-ish weapon, not like that goofy little Bio-Acid random direction flamer from 3rd.

Army balancing shouldn't be done because the rulebook made certain features better. What made Barbed Strangler really good is its range. 36"!! The closest similarities to the Barbed Strangler is the Vindicator (24") and the Whirlwind's (no need LOS, 48" ((I think))). In your version, you severely nerfed the Elite Carnifex (BS 1 ((see reduce BS in the Hive Tyrant section above))), Strength 7, Wound 3, 4+ Armor Save, Ld 5(?) AND take away the Barbed Strangler option?

With all the adjustment done to the stat-line already, you don't need to go OTT to "kill" the Line-Breaker Carnifex. LoL

I think your adjusted stat-line is great! But allow the poor Boomfex to have his Barbed Strangler. xD

I'll sit on the fence with regards to the Biovore... I don't like the current version at all and your version, although better, doesn't deviate much from the role of Carnifexes in the army (long range effective gun platform).

I think Tyrant Guards shouldn't be TMCs. It actually grants them too many bonuses for just 45 points. Instead, the whole Tyrant Guard Retinue rules should be re-written so that it is clearer.

Something like this:

The Hive Tyrant, if accompanied with Tyrant Guards, can never be chosen as a target for shooting. Instead, target priority is transferred to the Tyrant Guard instead.

As long as the Hive Tyrant is accompanied by its Tyrant Guard retinue, ignore all Line of Sight rules for the Hive Tyrant.

As for Carnifexes having Ld 5... it drives Tyranid players to never assault their Carnifexes into enemy troops even more! (especially so if they are out of Synapse range). My recommendation is to leave it at 10.

I really like the Malanthrope, the improvements you made to the Zoanthrope (your version is what should be the one all the while!) and two thumbs up for your Spore Mine re-wording.

Argh... sorry for the long winded-ness of this post... but that is what happens when we have discussions yeah? ;-)

ReveredChaplainDrake
29-11-2008, 21:57
Going To Ground

I think going to ground means (please correct me if I am wrong) that the unit absolutely is not allowed to do anything in their next turn. That is a great and unnecessary disadvantage. Furthermore Tyranid units within synapse creatures automatically rally and benefit from a lot of special rules. Now let's assume my gaunts started outside the synapse range, because the enemy killed my Tyranid warriors in the last turn, but quickly as I am, I move the next synapse unit in range of at least one gaunt. But because of the fact, they started their move outside the range I did not want to take a risk and didn't make a LD test. That means my units are immobile for 2 turns, just because of this little circmstance? That is exactly the reason we have "lurking", especially because the unit is STILL allowed to shot in the phase, so please correct it as it is a major loss in the effectivity of the Tyranid army and furthermore only creates problems that never where there or fixes things that where never broken.

This use of Synapse Creature (where the control must be there when the unit starts moving, rather than when the turn starts) is something that I don't think was the intended spirit of the rules. Also, the reason I'm not too concerned about Gaunts not doing anything is because they're not supposed to be super-killy units.

I will have to add that they should not have to test for Instinctive Behavior when they are locked in Close Combat.


Rule Lawyer thingie.
"Reroll all FAILED Wounding rolls..." You might never know if forgeworld releases a rending ranged Bio Weapon. THEN my friend you will get problems.
Good catch. Even though that re-rolls are technically "any" and not "all", it's an important distinction that many lawyering players have proven that they can't deduce it themselves.


Spore Mines

Why is it not allowed to charge them? They have a stat line, they are a unit, and they move and can destroy other units. Because of that the enemy should have the advantage of giving his unit the extra boost in movement if he is willing to take the risk of getting a model wounded (though with some mines the risk is pretty low).
You can't charge them because I intend the Spore Mines to act like tokens. I debated with not letting them get shot at all, but that proved way too broken. I just don't want assault-heavy armies getting to pull sneaky spore-assault moves, such as MEQs assaulting a unit of Gaunts, dragging the Gaunts into H2H with mandatory 6" reaction moves, and then charging into a Frag Spore Mine, blowing away half the Gaunt unit and maybe, possibly killing a MEQ in the process. I also want to avoid the ability for enemy units to charge a spore and get a massacre move off of it, which would technically happen were it possible to charge a Spore. Nevertheless, it is still possible to move or Run a unit such that it sets the Spore off. And because movement is far less stringent about maximizing base contact, this is a very painless way to get rid of lots of spores in a closed area by moving so that as few models as possible get hammered by the large blast template.

I might want to add a rule that says that Spore Mines colliding into Spore Mines actually sets them off, otherwise a Tyranid vs Tyranid game could have Spore Mines running wild goose chases after each other.


Spore Mines are mindless, floating baloons. They should not get any advantage from being in synapse other than the creature being able to force an explosion.
The Synapse is not intended as an ability of the Spore Mine, but of the Synapse Creature(s), as the Hive Mind guides the spores to the location of their enemies, rather than having the spores just resorting to their homing instincts. I originally had a thought to allow Synapse Creatures to take Spore Mines that have already been fired and throw them, but this was way too complicated and potentially a very broken way to rack up Kill Points against straggling units.


Include the rule, that the explosions do not scatter! (very important... we all know those rules lawyers!)
Seeing this as a bit of a gratuitous thing, I decided to change "resolve the shot immediately" for when Spore Mines hit an enemy to "resolve the collision immediately", to indicate that the explosion is nothing like a blast, except for using the template.


Bio Acid Mines lack the anti tank capacity which is crucial for taking out transports.
I forgot the 2D6 penetration? Okay, simple enough of a change.


Twin link weaponry

One of the great downsides of the Tyranid that does not really help their fluff. Tyranids should dish out a lot of low quality shots, and that is the reason we have a Carnifex with 8 devourer shots. Of course it costs too much for what it does, but that does not mean that the option should be taken away. It just should be more expensive. That really destroys some nice and interesing builds whose only problem where the low costs.
When designing the Tyranid redux, I was not aiming for Tyranids to be all that powerful with shooting attacks. The problem I saw currently is that Tyranids win shooting fights by filling the air between them and their target with dakkaworms, rather than closing the gap and eating their prey in close combat.

I might allow the Heavy Carnifex to bypass this rule (but not the Tyrant though) because Heavy Carnifexes actually make sense to be the shootier ones. But to allow the Line Breaker Carnifex to take double Twin-Linked Devourers would just reinforce the current problem of Carnifexes being better at range than in close combat.

ReveredChaplainDrake
29-11-2008, 22:09
Without number

Be specific. WHOSE Table edge? Of course the Tyranid players table edge and no scuttling special rules, please emphasize that! That would make the unit broken. Also please fix the kill point problem. Just granting the player all the kill points once, because as it stands now the rule is hopeless.
I changed it to read that they come off the "Tyranid player's deployment edge", as the core rules clearly indicate what table edge this is.

Also, removing Kill Points, even after the first kill (which I found would be extremely difficult to implement in practice with such homogeneous units) make the Without Number broods way too good in Kill Point missions. In Kill Points, the provision I made to give the Tyranid player a chance is that they don't have to recycle if the Tyranid player doesn't want them to be recycled.


Perils of the warp.

4+ invulnerable save againts perils of the warp attack, which MUST BE REROLLED IF SUCCESSFUL!!!
If this 4++ re-rollable is implemented, it becomes a challenge as to whether or not to even bother with the first PotW save. PotW re-rolls successes, and with this proposed rule, it re-rolls fails. In effect, you're just rolling a D6, ignoring it either way, and trying for another save.

I may just take this out and say "Tyranids never take Perils of the Warp", as it bypasses the unfluffy scenario of two Tyranid armies both fielding Shadow in the Warp upgrades against one another.

Warp Field

5+ save... do not overdo it. Tyranids are not deamons[/QUOTE]
It's to make the lack of general Tyranid toughness and armor saves better. A 4++ save (which is the same as cover, really) is an excuse to lower Zoanthropes' armor saves.


Catalyst

Only few people take this power nowadays and only few people take flesh hooks. Your goal should have been to make this option more attractive. Currently the distinguish use of these two things helps the Tyranid army in being a variable and felxible. There is simply no use in buying a power, that replaces a biomorph. Keep the rule of Catalyst right now, it really is o.k. and about the flesh hooks... well the point costs... later.
I was thinking about this. I'm not all that much of a fan of keeping it the way it is, due to wanting to cut down on needing Psychic Tests and the fact that casualties can be pulled from outside 2"-from-friendlies range, making it largely pointless if Gaunt unit sizes go up the way I intend for them to. Plus, Flesh Hooks instead of "always attack anyway" is a boost to Hormagaunts with Initiative upgrades.


Psychich scream

Nice change of "To the Leadership value" instead of "All leadership tests" But -2 is too much, it would be to powerfull because it is a cumulative effect. You should also add the wording, that this power is cumulative.
It's not cumulative.


Psychic Scream: All enemy units with a model within 18” of one or more of your units with this power suffer a -2 to their Leadership value.

It's an If-Then conditional power. If an enemy unit has an enemy model within 18", it suffers -2. If not, it doesn't suffer at all. Hence why I made it a -2, as you can no longer string five Psychic Screams together into an overlapping -5LD a capella number (scary thought... Tyranid a capella...), but that it might actually cause a worthwhile effect. I was playing around with making it a pinning attack, something like the Dark Eldar Terrorfex with a psychic test, but I wanted to cut down on psychic tests except for the hard-to-do stuff, while Psychic Scream is more like an aura.


Shadow in the warp

No, no! The current rule is o.k. or you could have changed it a little bit, but remember, the Tyranids are no deamons! There is "no peril of the warp" attack. The power is simply annihilated and there are no perils of the warp effect (even not for the Tyranids). Change it into "reroll any succesfull test and annhilite any perils of the warp attack for you and the oponent" or something...
The current Shadow in the Warp rules are terrible. Nobody takes the power if they can help it (hence why just about every time the power can be purchased, it's free), and the Perils of the Warp being a terrible adjustment for everyone that isn't Eldar means that ignoring Perils is actually a good thing for opponents who throw out lots and lots of Psychic Powers, like Tzeentch sorcerers and Princes.

Plus, not all "Perils of the Warp" are necessarily daemonic. Many psykers go insane when they gaze upon the Hive Mind with their finite, emotionally-clouded minds. The point of my Shadow in the Warp power is that the Hive Mind itself lashes out at the psykers, or it simply drills a monotonous, screaming chorus of despair into their brains. As it stands, the Hive Mind as a psychic entity is actually quite docile. I wanted to make it nastier.


[color=purple]Weapons

Lash whip

Cumulative!

Actually not. (Like Psychic Scream, I tried to phrase it in a conditional way.) Lash Whips are never cumulative. If two Lash Whips are used by the same Tyranid, it counts as having 2 weapons. In essence, "Two Lash Whips" are basically super-Scything-Talons.


Rending Claws

With or without Bio Plasma?
Without, of course. Bio Plasma is not a close combat attack. It's a shooting attack delivered in Close Combat. Think retro Striking Scorpions. Really retro.


Scything Talons

There is a tactial reason a Tyranid player has to decide between a bonesword or a second pair of scything talons. By your wording everyone would choose the boneswoord, nevertheless getting the additional two attacks.
Or, take the two Talons, maybe Acid Maw, and then the Tyrant in question is a re-rolling monster with 4 attacks that re-roll to both hit and wound. Two talons isn't the more scrappy solution, but it's definitely a more secure system with having (without charging) 4 re-roll to hit attacks, rather than 5 that don't re-roll to hit. I do expect the Bonesword + Lashwhip + Scytals combo to be a popular one on close combat Tyrants, but I also expect there to be multiple "good" combat Tyrant bioweapon builds. And the costs are there. 20 pts for Lash effects, Flesh Hooks, and up to a fifth attack. I think that's a steep enough price tag to encourage something like Crushing Claws or two pairs of Scything Talons instead.


Armour Piercing

Please get rid of the rule, that monstrous creatures get an additional armour piercing value. That would encourage the Tyranid player in fielding even more units equiped for range combat. As it stands now, Monstrous creatures with close combat attacks are neglected in favour of creatures with ranged fire power. You should not throw this decision out of balance by helping out those ranged fire power creatures even more. Furthermore the large blast Strenght 8 Barbed Strangler should not have an armour piercing value of 4 nore should the Venom cannon have an armour piercing value of 3 and a strenght of 10.
The idea behind this was to make the Venom Cannon a more appealing gun for Monstrous Creatures, but without making it totally broken in the hands of Support Warriors, who can spam it out in absurd quantities. A Venom Cannon on a Tyrant or a Carnifex can thus serve as a powerful anti-MEQ gun, as well as an anti-tank gun, but it won't be so good on Warriors. Besides, with cover in such abundance, most Marines will be cut down to mere 4+ cover saves. Unless you're a Plague Marine, it shouldn't be that scary to get shot by a Tyrant's Venom Cannon, though it should make you want to hunker down.

As for the Barbed Strangler, I may ramp the AP back down to 6 base, making it AP5 on a monster. But Barbed Stranglers are 30 pts on Carnifexes and 25 on Tyrants for a reason.


Biomorphs

Bio Plasma

One Important Character of the Tyranid army is to dish out a lot of hits and shots, but with low quality. Giving them unecessary armour piercing values of 4 for a lot of things would not help them at all against those all present MEQ armies, but still make them more expensive and giving them an advantage, particulary against Rldar and Tau and Stormtrooper heavy Guard or the carapace equipped guard.
Eldar... Tau... Guard... Tyranids were going to win close combat fights against those races anyway. I just didn't see why a Bio-Plasma should always allow armor saves. Be glad, it could be worse. The original version was AP1!

And incidentally, high-volume low-quality shooting is not a Tyranid way of hunting. That's an Ork way of making noise. And a Guardsman's way of panicking. But filling the air with bullets is not something a silent and calculated hunter species would try. The main point of this redux is for Tyranid players to be able to use tactics distinct to themselves and their own army's unique fluff, rather than piggybacking on Ork tactics with varying levels of comparative efficiency.


Scythe Tail

Potentially 6 attacks extra? That is a little bit much, also a D6 is more randoum than a D3, so keep it D3. It's o.k. that way, just imagine your carnifex with additionally 6 Attacks with strenght 5 that count as power weapon attacks. That is really extreme.
Yes it is a bit extreme. However it's not cheap, and I think it does a great job of making Combat Carnifexes just as viable as their present-day shooty cousins. Don't get me wrong, Carnifexes should be the shooty backbone of a Tyranid army (considering how crappy everyone else is at it), but a competent melee build should be available for those willing to splurge in that direction.


Toxic Miasma

Why is the Miasma so random? (D6?)
Because a flat 6" would make it too powerful / overpriced. I was thinking of making it apply like Lash Whips, such that it only works if the creature is actually attacked by the enemy model, but I wanted the Toxic Miasmas on Zoanthropes to do something when the Zoanthropes aren't actually fighting.

Units

Hyve Tyrant

OUCH!
Now you see.. The Tyrant is an effective, resistant and even possibly fast unit, with your options bred for almost all possible roles in an army, capable of mowing down infantery, taking out weaker characters alone or facing tanks easily.
But 65 points? You get an uber killing machine for 65 points? Sure you have to buy lots of stuff extra, but don't you think, that it might be too easy to construct the perfect hunter and all that for a basic 65 points? 75 points would be more like it. I realised the Toughness five, but I am also looking at the potential and the strenght of 6 (which is a lot, it can be upgraded to 7 and then tweaked with the weapon biomorphs enabling him to dish out high quality fire power on a solid platform for very low costs!)[/QUOTE]
75 pts for a T5 monster that doesn't even screw up the Force Orgs would've made Malanthropes and Broodlords the default options for many players. This is because I want players to be using multiple Tyrants and taking an approach of apathy to their use. It's totally anti-Tyranid (from what I consider a "Tyranid" mindset) to care too much about the death of a particular leader because he's so expensive. So long as it wasn't the last Synpase Creature, I don't see why a Tyranid player should fret about keeping their Tyrants safe, and so I fully expect people to be using bare bones Tyrants in liberal offensive maneuvers on a regular basis. This is contrary to the current "apathetic" use of Tyrants where the Tyrant gets thrown into any fight because it never dies unless it hits a massive 300+pt brick wall, like Abaddon or the Nightbringer. Instead, my system encourages a bit of reality. Yes, the Tyrant is cheap. Yes, you can upgrade it to be nasty. But no, it's not the best way to use them. Instead, why not just take two okay ones?

One of my favorite builds with the Redux is Wings, TLed Stranglewebs, Crushing Claws, Flesh Hooks, and Psychic Scream. Get right in their face, pin them down so they won't flee, and subsequently rip them to shreds.


Then there are the wings. You see... these are so good on the Tyrant, even for 35 points, that you have to make them either more expensive (at least 40 - 45 points) or make them "one per army".
Venom cannon on a Tyrant? With 3 S8 attacks even possibly S9? 35 points rather than 30.
This is the reason why I didn't make Flyrants into 0-1 choices. When Tyranid players cautiously pander about when moving their sole Flyrant, as if it's a precious Lord choice that your army will be demoralized to see die, you get into some clearly non-Tyranid tactics and thought processes, such as Tyrants running scared from Terminators or Bloodthirsters. Instead, the Tyranid way is all about apathy. Don't fret over the potential death of one Winged Tyrant. Instead, take two small, crappy ones and if one dies, meh, there's still one more and the Rippers will eat the second one anyway. Though as a consequence, it's far easier to drop a Flyrant now as they can't be 2+ saved or be T6 when winged, which should alleviate the fears of post-redux Nidzilla.

Also a bit of a guilty confession from a sore Chaos Marine player, but I think that Chaos armies are the only ones who should have access to T6 Monstrous Jump Infantry. It makes Nurgle Princes, Bloodthirsters, and similar big nasties seem more uber by comparison. Right now, the Daemon Prince is embarrassingly fragile compared to the Tyrant. And while Princes are supposed to be really rare manifestations of the perfection of Chaos blessings, using two cheap Princes as a tag-team is something I feel is far more suited for Tyranids, whose "leaders" are just as expendable as the very ammo they shoot.


Twin linked devourer (if you follow my advice of allowing two twin linked weaponry) ... that would mean then 12 S6, reroll wounds and hits for +45 points? That is simply to inexpensive! 20 points per set at least!
Hence why I'm not allowing Tyrants to double up to be TLed weapon batteries.


Two lash whips? Does anyone want that? But nethertheless o.k. from my side.
Unless you consider the points cost restrictive, it's a great way to get the benefits of both the 5th attack and the re-rolls to hit. In fact, with that in mind, the twin Lash Whips are disgusting.


Acid Maw.. acid attacks on a S6 Creature? (Rerolling failed 4+ wounds on almost all the things out there... at least 15 points... I mean... wounding greater deamons on 4+..... jesus!)
You're also wounding Fire Warriors and Guardsmen on a 4+. A re-rollable 4+, but that's only 75% of the time, compared to what used to be something like 83.33% against anything T4 or lower, which was most of what Tyrants wound up fighting.

To be truly honest, Acid Maw was designed for the Purestrain Genestealers, not the Tyrant. If I made Acid Maw to wound on 2+, Purestrain Genestelaers with that morph would have to be stupidly expensive.


symbiotic rippers... saving wounds on a Tyrant (even if it is just the no retraet thing)? At least 2 points a piece please!

Not when Tyrants generally save so easily. (BTW, Symbiote Rippers do not ignore the first failed No Retreat save, if that's what you were thinking. They just make it so that, if a Tyrant loses combat by 5 and has 3 Symbiote Rippers, the Tyrant only has to take 2 saves. Should I clarify that?) As a side note, I might want to change Wings to disallow Symbiote Rippers because the image of Rippers riding a Hive Tyrant like Dr. Strangelove rides a nuclear warhead is not the image I'm trying to go for.


Tyrant Guard

I think that 45 points for a unit with T5 and mere 2 wounds, without the customizability of a Tyrant is too expensive. 40 points sound more like it, that would make the unit fieldable. Otherwise I like that unit a lot, I would field them quite happily as an Elite Unit! (daydreaming)
Hold on a second? MONSTROUS CREATURE?
That does not... sound... right... somehow...Y
No, you're not too exhausted, nor was I insane when I wrote it. Yes, Tyrant Guard are full-blown Monstrous Creatures in the redux. However, it's not all good. First of all, you quickly noticed the T5 that made them virtually unplayable were it not for their newfound stature. I saw being MCs in their own right was more than enough of an incentive to raise their cost up from 35, what I originally priced them at when they just had Rending Claws. Considering what Rending was like when the Codex was written, being Monstrous is just about right for a T5 Tyrant Guard of the points cost in the Codex.

This also simplifies the issue of Tyrant Guard being able to claim cover saves for being obscured, but Hive Tyrants don't. Instead of taking Monstrous Creature away from the Tyrant, a moronic and complicated idea if I ever heard one, I went the other way and made Guard monstrous. Now they're more vicious than ever, but they have a harder time claiming cover saves due to now requiring 50% of their unit to be physically obscured with True LoS. Thus, Tyrant Guard aren't just expensive ablative wounds. They're offensive upgrades as well as defensive, as per the more vicious, predatory feel I wanted the Tyranids to have.

ReveredChaplainDrake
30-11-2008, 00:35
Well, reasons behind having the Hive Tyrant staying out of close combat varies and are valid reasons I am sure. It has to do more with play style, a players knowledge of the effects of close combat (and rules) and also a well learned player will almost never commit to do certain things that will put him at a severe disadvantage and losing an expensive and valuable unit in his army. (emphasis mine)

I will NEVER assault my Hive Tyrant if:

1. I KNOW I cannot kill all the models in the unit, in 1 assault phase
2. Powerfist type weapons (not so hidden now, but you get the idea)
3. Know you might lose combat (and take a gazillion saves)
It cannot be stressed enough that this is the mindset I'm trying to get rid of amongst Tyranid players. Tyranids shouldn't be playing it safe and investing effort into using a Tyrant such as to preserve it. After all, from the mightiest Hierophant to the lowliest Gaunt, they're all Ripper food in the end. They're supposed to pour forward without notion of personal conservation (until and unless they lose Synapse). The codex should thus support an army that doesn't care about casualties and measures wins and losses by other measures than kill counts. That's the one thing Tyranids bring to the game that no other army does.


You are right, Tyranids should not be in the business of out-shooting "shooty armies" but what is is a shooty army in 40k? ALL armies can/are be shooty in 40k. Tyranids have to ability to shoot, but just not quality shooting. Tyranids should be able to dish out quantity shooting, just not high AP, precision shooting.
I define "Shooty" armies as the kind of armies that actually use shooting as their primary method of damage. If "shooty" meant simply that the army's ranged weapons are powerful, then why are Chaos Marines considered "fighty" and Guard are considered "shooty" when Chaos Marines have some of the game's best pure assaulters and IG Lasguns are the laughing stock of the game's standard-issue weapons?

The way I look at how Tyranid shooting would work is that it supports the herding mentality of the Tyranids, sort of like the principle behind cattle prods, as opposed to thinking of them as mere assault rifles. The weapons should be blatantly short-ranged, but if the enemy finds themselves in range, they'll get messed up. The "modern" Termegaunt Fleshborer is a perfect example of this. Will you ever get into range to shoot with it? Probably not. But it will hurt if your opponent is foolish enough to stray into your range, even for MEQs.

The problem with this is that Devourers (most often of the Twin-Linked variety) give the firer the ability to backpedal away as they fire steadily, all-but-ensuring that the firer will never have to fight in H2H and will be able to basically run from everything. This is a trick used by shooty armies to maximize the amount of turns that they may use to shoot. When using this on a Tyranid, you would think that this would lead to the Hive Tyrant's wasted potential. But instead, shooting and backpedaling is widely considered the optimal way to use a Hive Tyrant. Which is a pity, considering that Tyrants are some of the most powerful assault units in the game.


As for units having the option to take twin-linked weapons, we can simplify it even further.

Units can only take twin-linked weapons if it is stated in their wargear biomorph options. If there is no twin-linked weapons in their biomorph option. You cannot take any. Simple full-stop.

Taking two twin-linked biomorphs means, you unit has 2 twin-linked weapons. Doesn't mean it is quad-linked (this is for those exceptionally dense people)
This seems to me like it just helps units that can actually take Twin-Linked ranged weapons (Carnifexes) while hurting units that can't (Warriors). Not like Warriors needed nerfing or Carnifexes needed boosting. What I want from making Tyranid shooting less effective is, for want of a better analogy, to get Carnifexes to act like Carnifexes and not Crisis Suits.


I noticed that you gave Devourers AP6 (which is a nice touch) and maxed strength out at St 6 (which is a good thing also) but I disagree on this. For balance issues, I rather they stay AP -. Giving Devourers AP 6 and Max Strength 6 (but only be able to take 1 TL-version) is a step forward and backward at the same time.
Did you factor in that Carnifexes with TLed Devourers treat them as AP5? Plus, AP- has crippling connotations at anti-tank that it didn't have before.


Which the majority of the army is already doing. AP5 - 6 or dash. Low BS. Scatter (with low BS means they really scatter!).

Why not just make the Devourer more expensive? That is the reason why Tyranid players seldom take any weapon twin-linked.

Currently:

Twin-linked Barbed Strangler? (30 - 40 points?!?!)
Twin-linked Venom Cannon (70 - 80 points?!?!)

My suggestion is to simply make Devourers more expensive. At the moment, they are 24 points (for a TL version). Bump it up to 35 points (which will mean it will be 70 points to have a pair of TL ones).

You can't compare Twin-Linked Devourers and Twin-Linked Stranglers or Twin-Linked Venom Cannons when it comes to equipping Monstrous Creatures. Monstrous Creatures can fire two weapons, meaning that two Twin-Linked ranged weapons are going to be necessarily better than one Twin-Linked ranged weapon. Which is why TLed Dev Carnifexes currently rule the roost, but hardly anyone will Twin-Link a Barbed Strangler.


The best way (IMHO) to nerf shooting for Tyranids (in this case, the biggest culprit seem to be the Hive Tyrant) is to make its base BS 2. With Enhanced Senses (BS 3) it means you need 4s to hit (reroll yay) and 3s to wound (reroll that too) and you can see (do try it out yourself) that the number of hits it can dish out, drops quite drastically with just one change to the stat-line.
While this does work to a certain extent, dropping the Hive Tyrant's BS will only make the TLed Devourer build more popular. Consider what a lower BS does to other weapons compared to the TLed Devs. Why get a Venom Cannon and a BS upgrade, when 2x TLed Devourers are cheaper? It heavily nerfs all other ranged weapons on the Tyrant (particularly the blast weapons), when the only build that was really all that unfair was the quad-Devourer Tyrant, which was affected the least.


Note that the shooting quality for Tyranids is seldom better than AP5 (bar the Venom Cannon and Biovore Spores... which isn't really shooting O_o). Devourers are AP - and strength 6 max .... which, when equipped on a Carnifex can take out lightly armored tanks or their weapons systems regularly. But you still need to roll 5s and 6s to glance or penetrate (AV 10 - 12). Ditto for Hive Tyrants.

But you still need to assault the tank to kill it (to be sure).

I believe in subtle and simple changes... not drastic ones that the development team in GW occasionally do. Do really consider this. Lower the BS for the main culprits (Tyrant down to 2, Carnifex is already at 2), bump the price for Twin-Linked biomorphs (at least 35% - 40% point increase) but everything else stays the same. These changes actually effect the rest of the army (especially composition) on the long run.
The problem is not as clear cut as "Twin Linked = Broken / everything else = Fair". If Twin-Linked were broken enough to merit a specific nerf, why have I yet to see anyone but me even model a Desperado Tyrant (2x TLed Deathspitters & BS4), who should by all means be one of the most fearsome 5th edition Tyrant builds of all? The problem lies in the fact that there is no incentive for a Tyrant to get into a fight. The way I figured it, take away the dual-TLed weapons and make the Tyrant dirt-cheap, and players will feel a bit more carefree with using them for gutsy assaults that will probably kill said Tyrant in the long run.


A Broodlord is supposed to be a higher version of the Genestealer. It shouldn't lose its ability to fleet. The only reason why he can't fleet... is because he is too fat.
I think game balance has a lot to do with why Broodlords can't fleet as well. As the rules were written in 4th edition, if Broodlords could Fleet, they would make a 1st turn assault in pretty much every game, and as you could roll entire armies up with just a Broodlord back in 4th, this made giving the Broodlord Fleet to be an extremely bad and game-breaking idea.


I don't like the Armor save 4+ for the Purestrain either. Cover saves being the super cool feature in 5th edition (doubt it might be around in 6th) it drives the cost of this supposedly elite troop steeply upwords (and genestealers are already very expensive for what they do)

At the moment, they are 16 points base. For 16 points elsewhere, you can have 1 Space Marine, who can shoot (AP4, BS4) have an armor save 3+ able to rapid fire or shoot pretty far. The Genestealer is actually sacrificing the ability to shoot and that armor save (5+) for superior weapon-skill (6) and speed (fleet, initiative 6) and more attacks (2 base).

Three for Three. Fair enough.

If there is any need to modify Genestealers for that pointage you are suggesting, I'd say give them power weapons (like how they were in 2nd edition) and no rending.

Rending actually gives them a chance to take out vehicles (which is rather odd). Take that away and give them power weapons, that will enable them to be real troop killers.

My suggestion, 20 points per 'Stealer. Retain their current Genestealer stat-line (means AS 5+). Give them power weapons. No Rending. Retain biomorph selection (you can opt out Power Weapon attacks for Rending Claws) bump Feeder Tendrils to 3 points. They should fleet also.

But that is the Purestain Genestealers. I would leave the current Genestealer type in there, for variety and as an extra option for players, who want cheaper troops.

As for the Brood Lord, he really needs fleet. So for that, bump him up to 100 points base. And without the option of taking Extended Carapace, he is somewhat balanced.
Genestealers are already some of the most powerful Tyranid units in the codex, and are even some of the most powerful and most feared units in the entire game. As such, for what they do, they're incredibly powerful and probably the most-likely-underpriced unit in the codex, after the Dakkatyrant. In the scope of other armies, Genestealers do not need to get any better. In fact, the way I wrote the new Genestealers, they got slightly worse. While Scuttling "Stalking Genestealers" are an important part of the feel of a swarm of hunter-monsters as they attempt to surround their prey from all sides, I take an approach to nerfing them by making them Fast Attack choices, meaning that you can't have an army of just them and nobody else (unless you field a Broodlord, at which point your ability to take large monsters is punished), you're capped at a maximum of 3 units, and most importantly they cannot capture objectives.


If the normal Genestealer can't scuttle, I would think that the whole Tyranid army will suffer. My suggestions:

1. Only Genestealer broods that cost under 20 points per model can take the scuttle ability (this includes the cost of scuttle)

2. All Genestealers have scuttle ability for free if there is one Broodlord in play. (Encourages themed army). That means if the Broodlord dies, no more scuttle.

3. Only Purestrains can Scuttle. Normal ones just run around and get shot.

If Genestealers cannot take scuttle, I would think that players would rather just spam hormagaunts (and your version is 12 points each for a maxed out hormagaunt). Losing that ability alone will not justify the cost I would pay for Genestealers, given that hormagaunts and genestealers are very similar (in role and ability).
1) That's just a strange restriction. So, they can only Scuttle if they don't take any other upgrades except Scuttling?
2) You might want to rethink the Korsharo-Khan-inspired #2 of your Scuttling Stealers stipulation, on account of how little sense it makes in practice. Having the Scout rules isn't like being Stubborn or Fearless, where the rule actually has a persisting effect on the unit. Due to the nature of Scuttling, it only works once and then it's like an idle ability that does nothing after it's done. Losing Scuttling during a game cannot be done, and if it can, its effects are virtually non-existent. And then there are the discrepancies of what happens to units in Reserves who lose Scuttling before their deployment. Scuttling units have to declare to Outflank, the most conventional use for Scuttling, and must do so during deployment. After that what would happen if they suddenly lose Scuttling? Would they still Outflank because that's the deployment option they selected? Would they have to change their declaration to simply appearing out of 'normal' Reserves, or would they wind up stuck in an off-table limbo and count as being killed?
3) That's just about exactly what I did. Stalker Genestealers are basically Purestrains with compulsory Scuttling and take up Fast Attack FOC slots, unless you take a Broodlord.

Hormagaunts are hardly a replacement for Troop Genestealers. Hormagaunts have a capped maximum WS4, while Genestealers are WS5 for normal Troop variants. Troop Genestealers are T4, while Hormagaunt are T3. Troop Genestealers re-roll to hit with their attacks. (2x Rending Claws base, see my rules for "Twin-Linked" close combat Bioweapons) Genestealers are Rending. And most obviously, Genestealers do not require synaptic control and are just plain Ld10 scoring units.


Army balancing shouldn't be done because the rulebook made certain features better. What made Barbed Strangler really good is its range. 36"!! The closest similarities to the Barbed Strangler is the Vindicator (24") and the Whirlwind's (no need LOS, 48" ((I think))). In your version, you severely nerfed the Elite Carnifex (BS 1 ((see reduce BS in the Hive Tyrant section above))), Strength 7, Wound 3, 4+ Armor Save, Ld 5(?) AND take away the Barbed Strangler option?

With all the adjustment done to the stat-line already, you don't need to go OTT to "kill" the Line-Breaker Carnifex. LoL

I think your adjusted stat-line is great! But allow the poor Boomfex to have his Barbed Strangler. xD
Oh I far from killed the Line Breaker. You missed the part where he's 60 pts, Fearless, WS4 base, Str7 base, a potential I4, and can Fleet. He's just a crappy shooter. (Except with those TLed Stranglewebs!)

The Boomfex is still a legal Carnifex build. (And with an AP4 Strangler and AP3 Venom Cannon, the Gunfex got better than ever! Just in my redux, the CC fex, the Biovores, and the Zoanthropes are all actually worthy competition for the Heavy slot, unlike now.) He just has to be taken as a Heavy Support choice because he carries what any other race would constitute a Heavy Weapon. I don't care how bad the Ballistic Skill sucks, six pie plates every round with that kind of range is just perverse.


I'll sit on the fence with regards to the Biovore... I don't like the current version at all and your version, although better, doesn't deviate much from the role of Carnifexes in the army (long range effective gun platform).
You forgot that Biovores are considerably cheaper and shootier, though not as tough. Plus, Broodlord lists can have nine of them. Just imagine... nine chameleonic Biovores...


I think Tyrant Guards shouldn't be TMCs. It actually grants them too many bonuses for just 45 points. Instead, the whole Tyrant Guard Retinue rules should be re-written so that it is clearer.

Something like this:

The Hive Tyrant, if accompanied with Tyrant Guards, can never be chosen as a target for shooting. Instead, target priority is transferred to the Tyrant Guard instead.

As long as the Hive Tyrant is accompanied by its Tyrant Guard retinue, ignore all Line of Sight rules for the Hive Tyrant.
Ignore all Line of Sight rules for the Hive Tyrant? So, I don't have to see it to shoot it, so long as I'm in range? Sweet! Seriously, since the wording of what you're trying to say is so difficult to actually write out in a way that it can be coherenty read by everyone, I've decided that it's much better to just make the Guards into monsters. Considering that before they were just very expensive ablative wounds, with this kind of build they can actually cause serious damage in a fight, even if they can get shredded by basic infantry firepower.


As for Carnifexes having Ld 5... it drives Tyranid players to never assault their Carnifexes into enemy troops even more! (especially so if they are out of Synapse range). My recommendation is to leave it at 10.
:eyebrows: They're still Fearless, so they'll never fall back. They just take No Retreat wounds.

Sunshine
30-11-2008, 01:07
They're still Fearless, so they'll never fall back. They just take No Retreat wounds.

Although that does make them very easy to kill by mindwar, as in Insta-easy.

perhaps up to 7 or 8?

CthulhuDalek
04-12-2008, 04:13
It'd be cool if gaunts were...

6 points base. ws.3 bs.3 s.4 t.3 w.1 i.4 a.1. ld.5. Sv. 6+
special rules: beasts, without number.

The entire unit may select one of the following upgrades for free: scouts, furious charge, counterattack.
-Fleshborers, or devourers +2 points.
-Scything talons +1 points.
-Spinefists-- free.

fleshborer-rng.12,+1 Str. ap:5 assault 1. living ammo.
devourer--rng. 18,-1 Str. ap.5 x2. living ammo.
spinefists-rng. 12 str.as creature, ap.5 assault x. Twinlinked.

Living ammo

That'd make gaunts the mainstay of any tyranid army, IMO. This puts them as the prime close range horde army. Limey orks...

EDIT: I was thinking for mycetic spores something like...
-A unit taking mycetic spores may not use scout, furious charge or counterattack.
pts. 65 ws.3 bs.0 s.3 t.6 w.3 i.1 a.2 ld.10 sv.4+

A brood may take one mycetic spore per 1-10 gaunts. Deploy one pod via deepstrike, then deploy the other two anywhere within 6 inches(like a teleport homer) the gaunt brood is then deployed so that the gaunts are no further than 2 inches from an individual pod or another gaunt.

special rules: Toxic miasma, Toxic cloud: Basic a kustom force field for any unit within 6 inches of the main pod or 2 inches of the others. Any LOS drawn through it on the turn they opens also confers a cover save beyond.

Mycetic spores may also carry--3 warriors, 1 carnifex, 1 hive tyrant, 3 tyrant guard, 10 genestealers.

If taken as a Fast Attack choice they "spawn" Spore mines maybe...

Firaxin
04-12-2008, 06:10
:eek::eek::eek:

Okay, I'm slack-jawed and drooling, giddy and high all at once after reading that. I think there are some really stupendous ideas in there.

A few things:
I noticed that the fast attack, deep striking spore mines are missing. I know they're not taken currently because they give away free KP and really are suicide squads (unlike those IG). But one of the tyranid race's most iconic images is the endless spores that rain down for days at the beginning of a tyranid assault. If you gave those fast attack spores Without Number, and allowed them to deep strike when they came back on the board (and insured they don't count as KP) then I think it would be a pretty good choice that ought to be in there somewhere.

Er... I'm rather disheartened by the widespread stat decreases you've made.

Carnifex: Ld5, I can understand a gaunt going to ground with the sudden absense of synapse, but I feel like a massive carnifex is going to respond to its animal instincts and CHARGE rather than cower away from the las-shots pinging off it's hide.
Raverners: Ld5 (I mean c'mon, they're supposed to operate away from the synapse creatures. Now they can't, cause they go to ground >50% of the time...)
Gargoyles: Ld5 (Again, they operate way out in front of the synapse creatures. Unless a winged tyrant/warriors makes these guys troops, they should stay Ld10, imho) and BS2 (they only get 1x 12" shot each...). Also I'm not sure where the recent trend of people wanting these guys to be able to take scything talons has come from.
Rippers: ...I totally understand the Sv-- and I'll even buy the WS2, but I think they deserve a bit more of a price drop in that case.
Gaunts: BS2--Why? Gaunts have never been as inaccurate as an ork in the fluff. It was the shooty TMCs you needed to nerf, not these guys. Also Ld2 is waaay too much, especially if they can't even shoot now. Ld5 was fine.
Lictors: You decreased their WS and S by 1 each... when these guys are already underpowered! I don't understand.
Broodlord, Tyrant, etc... you get the point.

I think purestrain genestealers should be 18pts.

I'd prefer a 2/6+ warpfield to the current one. Tyranids don't have impenetrable armor, they shrug off wounds by being a) having lotsa wounds b) being tough and/or c) regeneration (feel no pain).

Warpblast... the zoanthrope was already a pretty shoddy tank hunter, now you're adding gets hot? How would that work with a psychic power anyways, doesn't it permanently destroy the weapon? And why do 6" cause the blast to go from AP2 -> AP5?

Zoanthropes were fine as they were, they just needed better BS and a little more resilience (T5 perhaps). But nerf + points hike = not cool.

In several places I think your biomorph/weapon costs are inflated way beyond what they ought to be.
Take the warrior for example. It's way underused right now because it's too expensive, especially considering how fragile it is. You've given it a 4+ save, which is a great start, but all the biomorphs have leapt in price, making it just as overcosted as before.

Was there a reason Heavy Support warriors have wings, btw?

...And now I sleep, there's too many things for my brain to hold onto at this hour.

CthulhuDalek
04-12-2008, 07:20
:eek::eek::eek:

Okay, I'm slack-jawed and drooling, giddy and high all at once after reading that. I think there are some really stupendous ideas in there.

A few things:
I noticed that the fast attack, deep striking spore mines are missing. I know they're not taken currently because they give away free KP and really are suicide squads (unlike those IG). But one of the tyranid race's most iconic images is the endless spores that rain down for days at the beginning of a tyranid assault. If you gave those fast attack spores Without Number, and allowed them to deep strike when they came back on the board (and insured they don't count as KP) then I think it would be a pretty good choice that ought to be in there somewhere.

Er... I'm rather disheartened by the widespread stat decreases you've made.

Carnifex: Ld5, I can understand a gaunt going to ground with the sudden absense of synapse, but I feel like a massive carnifex is going to respond to its animal instincts and CHARGE rather than cower away from the las-shots pinging off it's hide.
Raverners: Ld5 (I mean c'mon, they're supposed to operate away from the synapse creatures. Now they can't, cause they go to ground >50% of the time...)
Gargoyles: Ld5 (Again, they operate way out in front of the synapse creatures. Unless a winged tyrant/warriors makes these guys troops, they should stay Ld10, imho) and BS2 (they only get 1x 12" shot each...). Also I'm not sure where the recent trend of people wanting these guys to be able to take scything talons has come from.
Rippers: ...I totally understand the Sv-- and I'll even buy the WS2, but I think they deserve a bit more of a price drop in that case.
Gaunts: BS2--Why? Gaunts have never been as inaccurate as an ork in the fluff. It was the shooty TMCs you needed to nerf, not these guys. Also Ld2 is waaay too much, especially if they can't even shoot now. Ld5 was fine.
Lictors: You decreased their WS and S by 1 each... when these guys are already underpowered! I don't understand.
Broodlord, Tyrant, etc... you get the point.

I think purestrain genestealers should be 18pts.

I'd prefer a 2/6+ warpfield to the current one. Tyranids don't have impenetrable armor, they shrug off wounds by being a) having lotsa wounds b) being tough and/or c) regeneration (feel no pain).

Warpblast... the zoanthrope was already a pretty shoddy tank hunter, now you're adding gets hot? How would that work with a psychic power anyways, doesn't it permanently destroy the weapon? And why do 6" cause the blast to go from AP2 -> AP5?

Zoanthropes were fine as they were, they just needed better BS and a little more resilience (T5 perhaps). But nerf + points hike = not cool.

In several places I think your biomorph/weapon costs are inflated way beyond what they ought to be.
Take the warrior for example. It's way underused right now because it's too expensive, especially considering how fragile it is. You've given it a 4+ save, which is a great start, but all the biomorphs have leapt in price, making it just as overcosted as before.

Was there a reason Heavy Support warriors have wings, btw?

...And now I sleep, there's too many things for my brain to hold onto at this hour.


I think that all of the 2 wound nid models should be upped to T5. Guard, Tyrant and fexes toughness 6.

Tyrant Guard should be allowed to guard any monstrous creature like in the older dex. Tyrant should simply "allow" Tyrant Guard, they don't count as an HQ choice either. Think command squads. Guard should count as Monstrous Creatures.

Synapse should either--give fearless and feel no pain or fearless and Preferred Enemy(to represent the hive mind's ability to instruct the lesser warrior-beasts in how to fight each opponent.) Either it should make them UBER resilient or UBER killy. I'll go for the latter, because FNP on 30 hormagaunts is nasty...

Also, feeder tendrils could be basically the same as synapse, minus the range and fearless? Should be a lot cheaper.

I like your ideas about spore mines... But it would seem like this could replace the biovore entry. Biovores should be better + more than one brood--maybe increase brood sizes as well? 1-5 per brood?

ReveredChaplainDrake
04-12-2008, 21:07
I noticed that the fast attack, deep striking spore mines are missing. I know they're not taken currently because they give away free KP and really are suicide squads (unlike those IG). But one of the tyranid race's most iconic images is the endless spores that rain down for days at the beginning of a tyranid assault. If you gave those fast attack spores Without Number, and allowed them to deep strike when they came back on the board (and insured they don't count as KP) then I think it would be a pretty good choice that ought to be in there somewhere.

If you noticed, by counting Spore Mines as "tokens" and not "units", they no longer confer Kill Points. (Technically, as Spore Mines aren't called "units" now they shouldn't be conferring Kill Points anyway.) The idea behind Spore Mines raining down was tied into Biovores losing 0-1 in a Broodlord list, when you're raining down 9 Spore Mines every turn. With Large Blast templates on all spores except Acid Spores, that's really powerful as is. Throw in an option to drop spores as their own unit and no one will use Biovores or Spore Cysts at all.


Er... I'm rather disheartened by the widespread stat decreases you've made.

Carnifex: Ld5, I can understand a gaunt going to ground with the sudden absense of synapse, but I feel like a massive carnifex is going to respond to its animal instincts and CHARGE rather than cower away from the las-shots pinging off it's hide.
Fearless. Haven't quite figured out a way around getting virtually instagibbed by Mind War, but this keeps them from flipping out outside of Synapse, unless they're in a fight. Thus, I nerf the "shooty" Carnifexes who just use two Tyrants and nothing else, while drilling in that, yes, Synapse actually is important.

I'm thinking about ramping up the Leaderships from their current 2/5/10 to 4/7/10, to give Carnifexes some independency without Synapse. (Come to think of it, I want to make Pinning a little less important. Maybe just remove the Pinning mechanic from all Tyranids? Why would expendable little critters just duck out of the way if they don't care for self-preservation?)


Raverners: Ld5 (I mean c'mon, they're supposed to operate away from the synapse creatures. Now they can't, cause they go to ground >50% of the time...)
Outside of Synapse, yes. Again, this has to do with Synapse being important. If Synapse is as ubiquitous as it should be, then it's moot.


Gargoyles: Ld5 (Again, they operate way out in front of the synapse creatures. Unless a winged tyrant/warriors makes these guys troops, they should stay Ld10, imho) and BS2 (they only get 1x 12" shot each...). Also I'm not sure where the recent trend of people wanting these guys to be able to take scything talons has come from.
Gargoyles used to be able to take Scything Talons in their 3rd ed Codex, assuming you mutated a species of them to have that upgrade.

I just don't see how having Wings and Bio-Plasma suddenly makes a Gaunt Ld10. I suppose they might deserve a higher bracket of Leadership, moving up to the Ld7 (especially as Broodlords aren't Synapse), but also remember that I took the 0-1 limit off Flyrants. Even Gargoyles should be pretty easy to keep in Synaptic control.


Rippers: ...I totally understand the Sv-- and I'll even buy the WS2, but I think they deserve a bit more of a price drop in that case.
Did you account that every single base has a Symbiote Ripper? That's right. Every. Single. Base. Makes a good tarpit without being too stupidly and unreasonably tough. (Eternal Nurgling bases? :wtf:) I think their cost is actually fair for the Malanthrope list when they can take objectives, but I fully expect them to not be touched in a "traditional" swarm list.

They can also be used to cushion a Flying Circus, since a 12-pt flying Ripper is still a Troop choice.


Gaunts: BS2--Why? Gaunts have never been as inaccurate as an ork in the fluff. It was the shooty TMCs you needed to nerf, not these guys. Also Ld2 is waaay too much, especially if they can't even shoot now. Ld5 was fine.
How little Synapse do you use? Two Tyrants and some Zoanthropes are not supposed to be enough to make a horde implacable. (Personally, I don't go to the board with less than 2 Tyrants, 2 Zoanthropes and 6 Warriors.) I think the BS was a fair drop, considering how painful Gaunts can be when they all have free Without Number. And again, a Ld drop in a largely fearless army will most often be redundant.

Lictors: You decreased their WS and S by 1 each... when these guys are already underpowered! I don't understand.
Broodlord, Tyrant, etc... you get the point.
Lictors are Leaping and 60 pts, with Feeder Tendrils that extend 6". They also don't take up Force Org slots, so as not to hamper their use when compared to Warriors, but the 0-3 limit remains. Marines probably won't care, unless the Lictors are used in conjunction with other nasties to spread the Feeder Tendrils around, but GEQ shooty armies will find Lictors to be especially problematic when they can threaten any unit within 12" of area terrain. (Not like these armies would notice a difference between WS5 and WS6 anyway...)


I think purestrain genestealers should be 18pts.
Being a non-scoring unit like they are, I'm inclined to agree with you there.


I'd prefer a 2/6+ warpfield to the current one. Tyranids don't have impenetrable armor, they shrug off wounds by being a) having lotsa wounds b) being tough and/or c) regeneration (feel no pain).
If you haven't noticed, a 2+ save (the current Warp Field) is pretty impenetrable as it is. Which is why so many players hate Nidzilla these days. I wanted to give a Warp Field creature a fair shot at surviving everything, not a virtually sure-fire shot at surviving some things, while crumpling like a wet paper towel to others.


Warpblast... the zoanthrope was already a pretty shoddy tank hunter, now you're adding gets hot? How would that work with a psychic power anyways, doesn't it permanently destroy the weapon? And why do 6" cause the blast to go from AP2 -> AP5?

Zoanthropes were fine as they were, they just needed better BS and a little more resilience (T5 perhaps). But nerf + points hike = not cool.
Gets Hot replaces "can't be shot by a BS4 creature", and no, Gets Hot does not destroy the weapon. It causes a saveable wound on a roll of a 1 to hit. And maybe it's just my play area, but Zoanthropes seem to be the bee's knees, in many cases able to swipe one of the coveted Heavy Support slots away from those blasted Carnifexes. Struck me as being a little too good. And Zoanthropes aren't that much costlier. After the trade-off of having a better IV save in exchange for weaker armor, the current WB+SC Zoanthrope costs exactly as much as my proposed model. Only my proposed model has a much better survivability to AP2 in the open and Power Weapons, but is hurt comparatively more by dakka and AP3.


In several places I think your biomorph/weapon costs are inflated way beyond what they ought to be.
Take the warrior for example. It's way underused right now because it's too expensive, especially considering how fragile it is. You've given it a 4+ save, which is a great start, but all the biomorphs have leapt in price, making it just as overcosted as before.
I'm going to take this into much deeper consideration, as I'm truly aiming for Warriors to be good units. (Particularly in a Malanthrope list, where they're all Troops!)

I think most of the Biomorphs are pretty fair, except Extended Carapace, and that's only because getting a 3+ save on these guys is just uber. (I meant to add in Bonded Exoskeleton on Heavy Warriors as well. I just changed that and made the Elite's BE the same cost as Carapace at 5 pts.) Toxin Sacs might be a bit much, but right now they seem such obvious choices. The Bio-Weapons, I'll admit, I largely winged those. Let's take an in-depth look:

-Scything Talons (2 pts)
I always thought Scything Talons were a bit expensive for what they did. Just one attack extra, with Rending at best.
-Rending Claws (5 pts)
Comparatively, the current Codex cost is a bit much, but I think this is much better.
-Two Lash Whips (5 pts)
Special effects and extra attacks should compensate for being the same cost as a quite-popular Rending Claws, though they should cost enough to make simple Scything Talons a consideration.
-Twin-Linked Spinefists (4 pts)
Again costing just enough to make Scything Talons look good, because they're in essence Scything Talons + laspistols.
-Twin-Linked Fleshborers (6 pts)
Do you think anybody would actually use a Twin-Linked Fleshborer, given the options?
-Devourer (6 pts)
I see Devourers getting all the love over Fleshborers.
-Deathspitter (10 pts)
I think here is where the line crosses on being too expensive, especially as IMHO, blast weapons are largely overrated if you have BS: crap like Warriors do. Maybe just 8 pts.
-Strangleweb (8 pts)
Another really pricey option, but Stranglewebs are basically Pinning Flamers, and are habitually more valuable than you'd think. (Maybe it just seems that way because Tyranids aren't exactly known for taking Transports.) I might take them down to 4 pts, because they're only Str3 if the Warrior has non-upgraded strength. Not so high that they make other combat weapons more appealing, but not so low that they make other guns look stupid.
-Crushing Claws (6 pts)
A one-only combat weapon on Elite Warriors, is the chance for two extra attacks more than Scything Talons worth more points than Rending Claws? Against enemy hordes, that's mostly the idea. I wanted (1) to spread Crushing Claws around to other Tyranids and (2) to give Combat Warriors more complex options than 2xScytals or Scytal+RC.
-Spike Rifle (10 pts)
Again a bit much, for a basically half-ranged Sniper Rifle on a BS: crap Warrior, but Sniper Rifles are quite good nowadays with Rending.
-Venom Cannon (15 pts)
Lower than the Barbed Strangler because the Barbed Strangler is largely the better gun.
-Barbed Strangler (20 pts)
Quite much, but it only dissuades using Warriors as pie servers. Unless they're Heavies, of course, when the sheer quantity of pie makes them quite ridiculous.


Was there a reason Heavy Support warriors have wings, btw?
Er... typo? :angel: Seriously though, I did want the option to be present, resulting in Flying Warriors with 4+ saves and uber firepower, but only because you have to be really freaking uber to be in contention for the same Heavy Support slots as Carnifexes and Zoanthropes.

Firaxin
05-12-2008, 02:04
If you noticed, by counting Spore Mines as "tokens" and not "units", they no longer confer Kill Points.
Yeah I noticed, I was just saying in general, because there are alot of 'nid reduxes out there, including my own, and I was saying that for the benefit of anyone else listening in.


The idea behind Spore Mines raining down was tied into Biovores losing 0-1 in a Broodlord list, when you're raining down 9 Spore Mines every turn. With Large Blast templates on all spores except Acid Spores, that's really powerful as is. Throw in an option to drop spores as their own unit and no one will use Biovores or Spore Cysts at all.
I never really liked biovores anyways. ;) I suppose you have a point about the nine biovores being overpowered, but would people really max out on them like that and ignore the other heavy options?


Fearless. Haven't quite figured out a way around getting virtually instagibbed by Mind War, but this keeps them from flipping out outside of Synapse, unless they're in a fight. Thus, I nerf the "shooty" Carnifexes who just use two Tyrants and nothing else, while drilling in that, yes, Synapse actually is important.
Oh. I forgot the fearlessness for some reason. It was pretty late. :angel:


I'm thinking about ramping up the Leaderships from their current 2/5/10 to 4/7/10, to give Carnifexes some independency without Synapse. (Come to think of it, I want to make Pinning a little less important. Maybe just remove the Pinning mechanic from all Tyranids? Why would expendable little critters just duck out of the way if they don't care for self-preservation?)
Are you talking about when their in synapse range or out of synapse range? I can picture the Hive Mind forcing a swarm of gaunts to lie on their bellies in a cornfield in order to surprise the approaching IG patrol. Once they're out of synapse, they resort to their own animal instincts--survival. For the little ones, this typically means 'hide,' whereas something bigger like a carnie would fight back.


Outside of Synapse, yes. Again, this has to do with Synapse being important. If Synapse is as ubiquitous as it should be, then it's moot.
But by the fluff the death of a single hive tyrant could throw off an entire brood extending for miles in every direction (assuming it was the only tyrant). On the table, it's the range of a rifle. That doesn't make any sense either. It's similar to lictors--how can they do their job if they have to stay that close to a synapse creature?


Gargoyles used to be able to take Scything Talons in their 3rd ed Codex, assuming you mutated a species of them to have that upgrade.
Right, I have that codex too, silly me. I just don't remember anything like this occuring in the fluff, and I worry they'd be too similar to leaping hormagaunts.


I just don't see how having Wings and Bio-Plasma suddenly makes a Gaunt Ld10.
It has nothing to do with the change in gear. It's their role: they're the vanguard. They hit the defenders with thousands of bodies just to see where their weak points are while the main horde is days of travel away. How could they do that if they have to remain with 24" of a synapse creature?


Did you account that every single base has a Symbiote Ripper? That's right. Every. Single. Base. Makes a good tarpit without being too stupidly and unreasonably tough. (Eternal Nurgling bases? :wtf:) I think their cost is actually fair for the Malanthrope list when they can take objectives, but I fully expect them to not be touched in a "traditional" swarm list.
Symbiote Rippers subtract 1 from the number of wounds caused by No Retreat, and are cumulative, right? That's reasonable then, I guess.


How little Synapse do you use? Two Tyrants and some Zoanthropes are not supposed to be enough to make a horde implacable.
I'd hardly call Ld5 implacable. My complaint is about realism. Predatory animals acting on base instinct are not that stupid.


Lictors are Leaping and 60 pts, with Feeder Tendrils that extend 6". They also don't take up Force Org slots, so as not to hamper their use when compared to Warriors, but the 0-3 limit remains. Marines probably won't care, unless the Lictors are used in conjunction with other nasties to spread the Feeder Tendrils around, but GEQ shooty armies will find Lictors to be especially problematic when they can threaten any unit within 12" of area terrain. (Not like these armies would notice a difference between WS5 and WS6 anyway...)
Well against marines, the difference is between a 4 and a 5+ to hit the lictor. You don't honestly think a lictor is as easy for a marine to hit as another marine is?


If you haven't noticed, a 2+ save (the current Warp Field) is pretty impenetrable as it is. Which is why so many players hate Nidzilla these days. I wanted to give a Warp Field creature a fair shot at surviving everything, not a virtually sure-fire shot at surviving some things, while crumpling like a wet paper towel to others.
...Warp Field raises the save from 3+ to 2+ on 1 out 8 monstrous creatures in a 'nidzilla list: the flyrant. The walking tyrant takes carapace because it's cheaper, and the carnifexes don't even have access to Warp Field. So I'm going to have to disagree with you, I don't think it's why players hate Nidzilla at all.


Gets Hot replaces "can't be shot by a BS4 creature"
Your explanation is invalid because your zoanthropes are BS3, and can't upgrade beyond that. ...I'm forgetting tyrants aren't I? This power isn't that overpowered on just two models in the whole army when you compare it to railguns on battlesuits or demolisher cannons on demolishers, both of which are deadlier/longer ranged and can be taken more frequently. Just make warp blast cost more on the tyrant (especially because if tyrants are taking no shooty weapons, I'm envisioning warp blast as a shoe-in power since it lets it shoot and have CC weapons).


And maybe it's just my play area, but Zoanthropes seem to be the bee's knees, in many cases able to swipe one of the coveted Heavy Support slots away from those blasted Carnifexes. Struck me as being a little too good. And Zoanthropes aren't that much costlier. After the trade-off of having a better IV save in exchange for weaker armor, the current WB+SC Zoanthrope costs exactly as much as my proposed model. Only my proposed model has a much better survivability to AP2 in the open and Power Weapons, but is hurt comparatively more by dakka and AP3.
Maybe it's just the army you play then, but around here, AP2 is not that rare. Personally I think zoanthropes shouldn't have anything even approaching a 50% chance of deflecting a lascannon or plasma wound. Besides, 4+ cover saves are pretty common now, so you're basically lowering the save in exchange for nothing except increased survivability against close combat specialists. And since when were zoanthropes that good in CC?


I think most of the Biomorphs are pretty fair, except Extended Carapace, and that's only because getting a 3+ save on these guys is just uber.
Well, a 3+ save makes these guys 21pt marines without a ranged weapon. Then pay the minimum 4pts for 2x scything talons and you've got a 25pt marine that traded a bolter, a bolt pistol, frag, and krak grenades for +2 attacks in close combat. :(
Sure the 3+ is scary when you pile on things like +T etc, but those cost points too!


-Rending Claws (5 pts)
Comparatively, the current Codex cost is a bit much, but I think this is much better. Personally I think they were overcosted even when rending worked the old way. -1 for new rending, -1 for being overcosted, = 4pts in my book.


-Two Lash Whips (5 pts)
Special effects and extra attacks should compensate for being the same cost as a quite-popular Rending Claws, though they should cost enough to make simple Scything Talons a consideration.
Still don't think 2x lash whips combined with anything should give an extra attack. Think about it, the whip is busy pinning the enemy's arm to his chest or whatever. If it was actually attacking, it wouldn't be subtracting an attack.


-Twin-Linked Fleshborers (6 pts)
Do you think anybody would actually use a Twin-Linked Fleshborer, given the options?
Well according to your rules they're scything talons + boltpistols, right?
........How much would you pay to give a WS4 space marine scout a chainsword and a boltpistol?


-Strangleweb (8 pts)
Another really pricey option, but Stranglewebs are basically Pinning Flamers, and are habitually more valuable than you'd think.
Perhaps you should educate me then, because I feel like if something is within flamer range, I'll be assaulting it that turn anyway.


I might take them down to 4 pts, because they're only Str3 if the Warrior has non-upgraded strength.
Which brings up another thing I forgot to mention--why not simplify the balancing process immensly by giving two weapon prices like the codex works currently?


but Sniper Rifles are quite good nowadays with Rending.
...Rending is not that good.

ReveredChaplainDrake
05-12-2008, 07:57
I never really liked biovores anyways. ;) I suppose you have a point about the nine biovores being overpowered, but would people really max out on them like that and ignore the other heavy options?
Simply because Biovores look like they can be incapacitated by being kicked in the "spore sack" does tend to hurt their popularity amongst serious Tyranid players, especially when Carnifexes don't look as wacky.

Who can say what will wind up powerful and weak when real tourney gamers get their hands on a list? Who knew that spamming 8 Monstrous Creatures loaded to the teeth with firepower would make such a threatening and nigh-unbeatable list? (Not unbeatable though. Certain Daemon builds, Starpower Orks, and Abaddon all smear Nidzilla.) If you go look on some of the Tyranid designer's notes, a lot of designers admit to Nidzilla being one of the 'weakest' builds in the codex. At least we know better. ;)


Are you talking about when their in synapse range or out of synapse range? I can picture the Hive Mind forcing a swarm of gaunts to lie on their bellies in a cornfield in order to surprise the approaching IG patrol. Once they're out of synapse, they resort to their own animal instincts--survival. For the little ones, this typically means 'hide,' whereas something bigger like a carnie would fight back.
I decided against that rule and just amended the list to use 4/7/10 Leadership brackets anyway. But the point was I don't see how Tyranids in Synapse Range can get pinned when they "understand" how pitiful they are in the Hive Mind's grand scheme. For Synapse Creatures, this would always be the case. It was so much easier when "Fearless" = "no pinning".


But by the fluff the death of a single hive tyrant could throw off an entire brood extending for miles in every direction (assuming it was the only tyrant). On the table, it's the range of a rifle. That doesn't make any sense either. It's similar to lictors--how can they do their job if they have to stay that close to a synapse creature?
The Malanthrope and its 24" Synaptic range might seem a little more appropriate for what you're referencing. Of course, by the time Malanthropes come out, the very ground ought to be pulsing with synaptic energies.

Fluff-wise, breaking synapse on a planet-wide scale is quite difficult. Think back to Battle for Macragge, using the Hive Node terrain pieces, and then take it up a few notches. I've always envisioned some giant, massive synaptic hub right off the field behind the Tyranid player's board edge, such that there is always Synapse on a planetary scale at least. When the last synapse creature dies, the gribbles then run off towards this off-board synapse hub, which effectively takes them out of the fight. It's this massive hub that the Tyranids ultimately wind up protecting by throwing themselves forward, while determined attackers can simply cut through the horde and, assuming they win, they spend the turns after the game pressing forward to crush the giant synapse hub that the fleeing Gaunts all fled for.


It has nothing to do with the change in gear. It's their role: they're the vanguard. They hit the defenders with thousands of bodies just to see where their weak points are while the main horde is days of travel away. How could they do that if they have to remain with 24" of a synapse creature?
It's a bit fluff ambiguous what comes first in "Wave 1": Genestealers, Broodlords, Lictors, Spores, or Gargoyles. The way I've thought of it was Lictors to taste stuff, and they call in the Broodlords via pheremones, because Synapse isn't even in the question yet. The Broodlords then seed the Cultists, then Genestealers. Then once you have a synaptic backbone of Broodlords, Spores fire down to support the Genestealers (usually being deployed from either Biovores or Dactyls, the latter being so long-ranged that they're practically your "spore clusters") and then Gargoyles come riding in on the Harridans, once Synapse has been somewhat established. (When the Synapse doesn't fully form, you get worlds that it appears the Tyranids leave alone, such as Necron Tomb Worlds.) The Gargoyles make up the last part of the "vanguard" before you hit your full-blown invasion force. In that role, they are the immediate vanguard for the main force, but they're more like cleanup for whatever Genestealers and Lictors miss.


Symbiote Rippers subtract 1 from the number of wounds caused by No Retreat, and are cumulative, right? That's reasonable then, I guess.
Yes. It is cumulative. I wanted a clever, sensible way around No Retreat other than just ignoring it, to give opponents some idea as to why their usual tactics don't work.


I'd hardly call Ld5 implacable. My complaint is about realism. Predatory animals acting on base instinct are not that stupid.
Not necessarily "stupid". Just "stupider". Predictable biological instincts are no match for military tactics, particularly with your well-educated elite units. Besides, Leadership isn't just a measure of smart vs stupid. Just look at Rubric Marines. Ld10, but dimmer than a half-watt light bulb. I think of Tyranids like the opposite of Rubric Marines in that aspect: smart, cunning, and sloppy. As it stands, Carnifexes seem to have more martial discipline and tactical skill than a Space Marine Sergeant, and that's an image I wanted to eliminate. Unless of course, the Carnifex was under synaptic control. Having an omniscient Hive Mind dragging you around can make you seem a lot more coordinated when you're not much more than a big angry alien rhinoceros.


Well against marines, the difference is between a 4 and a 5+ to hit the lictor. You don't honestly think a lictor is as easy for a marine to hit as another marine is?
Marines hit Lictors on 4+ either way, and Lictors still hit the Marines on a 3+ with re-rolls for Preferred Enemy. You're thinking WS9, which only Daemons and Eldar can reach. Heck, Guardsmen hit WS6 Lictors on a 4+. Weapon Skill is largely a rubbish system in 40k because we don't have enough sides on our dice to accurately weigh the odds.


...Warp Field raises the save from 3+ to 2+ on 1 out 8 monstrous creatures in a 'nidzilla list: the flyrant. The walking tyrant takes carapace because it's cheaper, and the carnifexes don't even have access to Warp Field. So I'm going to have to disagree with you, I don't think it's why players hate Nidzilla at all.
Changing Warp Field is just one way I go about achieving this grand plan of nerfing Nidzilla. The other is by making Line Breaker Carnifexes 3 wounds, T5, and have a 4+ save. I imagine that everybody and their dog will upgrade all three of these stats, but the question is whether it's worth it for the points.


Your explanation is invalid because your zoanthropes are BS3, and can't upgrade beyond that. ...I'm forgetting tyrants aren't I? This power isn't that overpowered on just two models in the whole army when you compare it to railguns on battlesuits or demolisher cannons on demolishers, both of which are deadlier/longer ranged and can be taken more frequently. Just make warp blast cost more on the tyrant (especially because if tyrants are taking no shooty weapons, I'm envisioning warp blast as a shoe-in power since it lets it shoot and have CC weapons).
You're discounting (1) Malanthropes are BS4, (2) Malanthrope armies potentially give you 11 Warp Blasts a turn when they take the 0-1 away from Zoanthropes, and (3) Tyranids are not Tau. (And as a Tau player, trust me, for what the Tau pay for a Railgun, Tyranids are cheap!) However, I might go ahead and make Warp Blast cheaper for the Zoanthrope.


Maybe it's just the army you play then, but around here, AP2 is not that rare. Personally I think zoanthropes shouldn't have anything even approaching a 50% chance of deflecting a lascannon or plasma wound. Besides, 4+ cover saves are pretty common now, so you're basically lowering the save in exchange for nothing except increased survivability against close combat specialists. And since when were zoanthropes that good in CC?
I don't know about being good in Close Combat, but with how Toxic Miasma works, them and a Lictor make quite the potent force multiplier for any Gaunt unit. As for the 4+ IV save, I know 4+ cover is there. Zoanthropes are just one of the unfortunate casualties of the changes I made to Warp Field. Tyrants are the obvious recipients, but only because I pulled half their teeth out already by making them so fragile.


Well, a 3+ save makes these guys 21pt marines without a ranged weapon. Then pay the minimum 4pts for 2x scything talons and you've got a 25pt marine that traded a bolter, a bolt pistol, frag, and krak grenades for +2 attacks in close combat. :(
Technically it's not +2 attacks, just +1 with re-rolls to hit. And to be fair, that Marine also giving up Combat Tactics (which more importantly represent the ability to trade Combat Tactics in for something even nicer) and And They Shall Know No Fear, both are priceless abilities. A fairer conversion would use the Chaos Space Marines, who generally work better independently.

But even then, is an average Chaos Marine Ld10, Fearless, Eternal with 2 wounds, and have 3 attacks without the charge, all of which re-roll to hit during every round of CC? I'd call that a pretty sweet build for my points.

I'm looking it over and it seems that, apparently yes, the bigger the build, the more questionable its cost. A combat Warrior with all the useful toys (WS, Str, I, Sv, Scytals, Rending Claws, Leaping, Flesh Hooks) is currently about 45 pts. The same build in the redux is 43 for a 4+ save Warrior, upgradeable to 48 pts for a 3+ save Warrior, and in either case the redux Warrior has Fleet, while the former simply has a 12" charge. That's a huge difference when your charge range is that long and your armor is that good. But is it worth nearly 50 pts? Questionable to doubtful.

I was considering WS5 I5 base (same cost), WS6 and I6 with upgrade to drill in that they're supposed to be really good fighters, and making the Weapon Skill Initiative upgrade less compulsory and actually worth that cost. The jump from WS4->5 and I4-> 5 shouldn't be too expensive, and the Warrior chassis is pretty pricey.


Sure the 3+ is scary when you pile on things like +T etc, but those cost points too!
Exactly. I'm not making this redux to give anyone a free ride. However, given how effective Nidzilla has proven despite the odds against it, hand this redux to a tournament player and you'll get a shockingly-effective build out of it in just seconds by just stacking the Warriors with everything. Even though these builds are expensive, all those points combined can make something truly nasty. Look at how current Nidzilla players play Pimp My Tyranid Monstrous Creature. They load a Tyrant or Carnifex with every morph possible. And against all logic, it works. Not saying it should, but the option for fielding Mega-Warriors is perfectly legitimate, if not a tad wasteful.


Personally I think they were overcosted even when rending worked the old way. -1 for new rending, -1 for being overcosted, = 4pts in my book.
I'll consider it. I never found them overcosted, especially with the old Rending. Heck, back in 3rd ed, when we had the best of both worlds (super-rending and Leaping = Beast) those were some of the most vicious creatures you could ever imagine.


Still don't think 2x lash whips combined with anything should give an extra attack. Think about it, the whip is busy pinning the enemy's arm to his chest or whatever. If it was actually attacking, it wouldn't be subtracting an attack.
Makes more sense on a Tyrant or a Line Breaker, I guess. Maybe I'll just tone that down to one Lash Whip.

EDIT: Wait, never mind. I goofed my own rules there. 2 Lash Whips don't give extra attacks, but they simply make the current attacks Twin-Linked. It isn't too hard to imagine how a muscular whip can restrain an enemy's movement while the Hive Tyrant gives it a royal pounding that will just about never miss.


Well according to your rules they're scything talons + boltpistols, right?
........How much would you pay to give a WS4 space marine scout a chainsword and a boltpistol?
I'm starting to think I made a critical typo and forgot to give Warriors 2 wounds or something. What's with all the Marine comparisons?

Besides, Fleshborers aren't pistols. Spinefists are. But Fleshborers re-roll to wound.


Perhaps you should educate me then, because I feel like if something is within flamer range, I'll be assaulting it that turn anyway.
Orks.

There's also the added bonus of pinning. If you do any casualties, you can potentially freeze the unit in place so that they can't fall back, even if they wanted to. (I believe units that Go to Ground never fall back...)


Which brings up another thing I forgot to mention--why not simplify the balancing process immensly by giving two weapon prices like the codex works currently?
Thought it was too weird, to be honest. For example, if I were to do that, I would then have to consider how much a weapon costs if Toxin Sacs and Enhanced Senses are taken (a Barbed Strangler gets significantly nastier on BS4 than on BS3, especially when you field an entire unit full of them), or what effect either set of Adrenal Glands or Toxin Sacs has on Close Combat Weapons (like Rending Claws, where Toxin Sacs can drastically open new windows of results of Rending against vehicles)... it's just one giant balance headache.