PDA

View Full Version : What's the advantage of putting Necro on a corpse cart?



him_15
30-11-2008, 03:09
As title , Apart from the fact that "it looks cool!" ??

testosteronicon
30-11-2008, 04:10
The cart then counts as a mount and can hide inside a units together with the necromancer and get a "look-out-sir" roll against cannonballs.

The cart and its master will contribute +4 unit strength to the unit.

It will benefit from the Ghoulkin move, which is a must if you use ghouls since otherwise the cart will be to far away to give them the bound spell effect.

And use balefire with the Ghoulkin free move and enemy wizards may suffer -1 on casting rolls even on their first magic phase.


That's all I can come up with :)

Guy Fawkes
30-11-2008, 21:47
The cart then counts as a mount and can hide inside a units together with the necromancer and get a "look-out-sir" roll against cannonballs.

The cart and its master will contribute +4 unit strength to the unit.

It will benefit from the Ghoulkin move, which is a must if you use ghouls since otherwise the cart will be to far away to give them the bound spell effect.

And use balefire with the Ghoulkin free move and enemy wizards may suffer -1 on casting rolls even on their first magic phase.


That's all I can come up with :)

Have you read the book? None of these things are possible with the Corpse Cart. It "moves and fights as a monster" not a mount, certainly is not a Ghoul, and can't join units.

The Corpse Cart isn't really too useful as a Mount, to be totally honest. However it does lend a lot of convenience if you have certain army builds.

1.) If you are going to use a Corpse Cart and a Necromancer, mounting the Necromancer isn't a bad thing. The Corpse Cart isn't a large target, so you can hide the thing and it is almost as cheap as making a bunker unit of skeletons or zombies (80 points vs. the 100 points for a Corpse Cart w/an upgrade), plus is a lot smaller width-wise. If you are running several Necromancers, I am convinced this is the most effective way of keeping them safe. Instead of protecting them with unwieldy 10-man units, just creep behind the main lines in a compact Corpse Cart, which is small enough to viably protect from charges if you keep them close.

2.) Corpse Carts allow Necromancers a chance to be near Zombies without being independent. Since Zombies can't be joined by characters, having a Corpse Cart allows you to keep a Necromancer on raising duty, bring a Lodestone near the unit, keep a Balefire aggressively forward, and avoid having to take a Necro-bunker unit (or god-forbid, an independent Necromancer) near the Zombies. This is useful, because rarely do you want your main line where you want your tarpit Zombies.

3.) Corpse Carts lend Necromancers some bite in combat. Necromancers with close combat magic items, like The Hand of Dust, are protected with the mount-rider allocation rule against shooting, and Corpse Carts make great tandem charges with Zombies. Corpse Carts need only get the corner of their base touching a unit to unleash their 2d6 attacks. However, this is paltry compared to the main advantage of Corpse Carts: They can pursue the enemy! Zombies just inflict a bunch of S2 hits, but Corpse Carts can run down the enemy. This does expose your Necromancer, but since his likely bound item, the Corpse Cart's Miasma, The Unholy Lodestone, Balefire, and Necromancy spells all require proximity to the opponent, bundling all these things up in one compact model makes it a lot easier to make sure you are where you need to be.

That being said, Necromancer-mounting isn't really the safest option always. You trade a "Look out Sir!" roll for the chance of hitting the Corpse Cart, but the Corpse Cart can hide behind units very easily. It really is a toss-up, but I would consider the option in every list that includes both Necromancer and Corpse Cart, though I wouldn't consider spending 100 points to mount a 55 point model if I didn't have the Corpse Cart already. And I wouldn't need a Necromancer to make a Corpse Cart effective either.

Some food for thought.

testosteronicon
01-12-2008, 03:22
What I meant above is of course that you'll have to put the corpse cart in a ghoul unit to benefit from the free march.....

on page 43 it in the vc book: "the corpse cart is a strange creation, not truly a chariot or creature. In game terms, the corpse cart moves and fights as a monster".

=> But it isn't a monster. If taken as an upgrade for a necromancer it's a mount (with unit strength 4 together with the rider = just low enough for a lookout roll).

Guy Fawkes
01-12-2008, 08:38
What I meant above is of course that you'll have to put the corpse cart in a ghoul unit to benefit from the free march.....

on page 43 it in the vc book: "the corpse cart is a strange creation, not truly a chariot or creature. In game terms, the corpse cart moves and fights as a monster".

=> But it isn't a monster. If taken as an upgrade for a necromancer it's a mount (with unit strength 4 together with the rider = just low enough for a lookout roll).

A character on a dragon can't join a unit, so I'm not sure why it should be possible for a Necromancer on a Corpse Cart to join one. Also, a Necromancer on foot can join a Ghoul unit as well.

What I'm getting at is that monstrous mounts can't join units, so the Corpse Cart shouldn't be able to either, since it moves as a monster.

Maetco
01-12-2008, 09:17
"Characters mounted on flying creatures cannot join units" from pg 72 <- there's your reason why a character mounted on a dragon cannot join units.

Guy Fawkes
01-12-2008, 11:17
Maybe you are right, but I'm a bit unsure about everything now. Here are some relevant paragraphs:


Monsters always fight individually; they can never join other models to form a unit, except when they are ridden by a character.

Each monster is, in effect, a unit of one model...

Also, a mount with 2 or more wounds is a monstrous mount.

Now to me, this is deeply confusing. I have no trouble seeing why a Stegadon can't join a unit of Saurus, but if you mount a Skink Chief on the Stegadon, suddenly it can?

As anecdotal evidence, I have never seen a monstrous mount or creature (besides Slann) join a unit ever. However, you do point out that almost monstrous mounts are flyers also. I think I'd still have time convincing my gaming group to let me put a Corpse Cart in a unit of Ghouls, however.

But, if Corpse Carts can join units, all of the above options would be available to us. I offer an apology to testosteronicon for refuting his points then. I would in fact be overjoyed if this were a correct ruling.

Can anyone else shed some light on this?

DeathlessDraich
01-12-2008, 11:44
The Corpse Cart with a Necro *can* join a unit according to the VC FAQ.
There is also an FAQ on what happens if the Necromancer is slain.

Chris_Tzeentch
01-12-2008, 11:51
Can you add it to a unit of Grave Guard with the army standard in it with the Drakenhof banner to get the benefits of regeneration to the Corpse Cart and/or the Necromancer?

Lordsaradain
01-12-2008, 12:25
As anecdotal evidence, I have never seen a monstrous mount or creature (besides Slann) join a unit ever. However, you do point out that almost monstrous mounts are flyers also. I think I'd still have time convincing my gaming group to let me put a Corpse Cart in a unit of Ghouls, however.


What about an oldblood on carnosaur? Would't he be able to join a unit of cold ones?

EvC
01-12-2008, 12:26
You certainly can, although the Corpse Cart already has regeneration anyway, remember ;)

Given that the very quote you provided explicitly says you can do it, why do you doubt it Guy Fawkes? Have you never seen a picture of (6th edition) Archaon or another Chaos Lord or even Tyrion in a unit of Knights?

Chris_Tzeentch
01-12-2008, 13:04
I will put the corpse cart in my wight Death Star unit - dont you just love Vampire Count Point Denial Lists!!!!

Disciple of Caliban
01-12-2008, 14:10
What about an oldblood on carnosaur? Would't he be able to join a unit of cold ones?
He can indeed, in exactly the same way that Chaos lords on juggernaughts can join units of Chaos knights (or any other chaos unit)

Being on a monstrous mount doesnt stop you from joining a unit. You can attach your necro (or old blood) to pretty much any unit you like

W0lf
01-12-2008, 15:40
Yeah people just dont attachthe carno as theirs little point.

Large target so can be picked out, no look out sir and hes liable to panic cause from the unit now.

Guy Fawkes
01-12-2008, 17:07
Wow, I stand corrected. This is actually great news for me!

I'm sorry for the argument prior - it just seemed odd to me (I hadn't thought of Archaon or an Oldblood, to be honest, only evidence that supported my original thoughts - typical psychological error). However, I've never been happier to be wrong.

Thanks for helping out here, I was unaware they had even FAQ'ed VC yet. Thanks everyone.

Also, as a sidenote, EvC you're my hero.

VC Doke
01-12-2008, 20:41
Maybe you are right, but I'm a bit unsure about everything now. Here are some relevant paragraphs:



Also, a mount with 2 or more wounds is a monstrous mount.

Now to me, this is deeply confusing. I have no trouble seeing why a Stegadon can't join a unit of Saurus, but if you mount a Skink Chief on the Stegadon, suddenly it can?

As anecdotal evidence, I have never seen a monstrous mount or creature (besides Slann) join a unit ever. However, you do point out that almost monstrous mounts are flyers also. I think I'd still have time convincing my gaming group to let me put a Corpse Cart in a unit of Ghouls, however.

But, if Corpse Carts can join units, all of the above options would be available to us. I offer an apology to testosteronicon for refuting his points then. I would in fact be overjoyed if this were a correct ruling.

Can anyone else shed some light on this?

Stegadons can't join units, because they fight like chariots.

Lokust
02-12-2008, 13:57
How would this work for determining ranks? A corpse cart is pretty deep. In say, a unit of 12 skeletons, would the extra depth of the corse cart end up making your skeletons have more ranks than they otherwise would?

EvC
02-12-2008, 14:12
Stegadons can't join units, because they fight like chariots.

Don't make things up, please ;)

A Stegadon is ridden just like a monster, so if you have a Skink Chief on a Stegadon, it may join a unit. Quite bizarre, certainly.

loveless
02-12-2008, 14:46
How would this work for determining ranks? A corpse cart is pretty deep. In say, a unit of 12 skeletons, would the extra depth of the corse cart end up making your skeletons have more ranks than they otherwise would?

Oh, that's a bad topic :p

There are a plethora of ways to do it, all of which come with varying degrees of rule bending, RAW breaking, and RAI interpreting. Add that into the fact that a CC is on a Chariot base (right?) and you suddenly have a 50x100mm model in a 20mm unit. Now, that's fine for the first 5 ranks if you line them up side-by-side, but gets ugly after that.

Anyway...I started to type out some ASCII examples, but realized that it would make for an exceptionally long post and would really be better suited for the Rules forum. That and I'm sure you could find a thread on in the Rules forum if you dug around.

If I remember, the consensus is that there's no consensus.

Guy Fawkes
02-12-2008, 20:51
A Stegadon is ridden just like a monster, so if you have a Skink Chief on a Stegadon, it may join a unit. Quite bizarre, certainly.

This is what confused me initially. It didn't make sense that a character vs. a crew would change whether a giant dinosaur is suitable to join a unit.


The Corpse Cart with a Necro *can* join a unit according to the VC FAQ.
There is also an FAQ on what happens if the Necromancer is slain.

There's an FAQ on the VC already? I was unaware, unless this is the unofficial FAQ. I tried finding it, but the GW site in impossible to navigate now that they have made it organized for shopping instead of looking up information. Would you terribly mind posting a link if you have it?


How would this work for determining ranks? A corpse cart is pretty deep. In say, a unit of 12 skeletons, would the extra depth of the corse cart end up making your skeletons have more ranks than they otherwise would?

I would imagine this would work the same way that having a 25x50 model on a horse join a 20x20 model unit. I just try to make it look not terrible. I typically leave the 10mm on the back of the model blank or have it hang over the front of the movement tray, and just rank everything around it as best I can (the extra side 5mm fits on a modular tray alright). The Corpse Cart is a bit harder however.


I will put the corpse cart in my wight Death Star unit - dont you just love Vampire Count Point Denial Lists!!!!

While the Corpse Cart is certainly difficult to destroy inside any unit, I would avoid doing it. I stand by what I said before, the 6" radius on Unholy Lodestone and Miasma of Deathly Vigor is really very small. I can get several units in the ring of buffing if I pop out and stay between units, wheras inside a unit getting more than one or two units is hard (albeit, a Grave Guard unit with Great Weapons, a Vampire, and a BSB benefits far more from ASF than just about any other unit in the army list). Plus, I can still reasonably protect the Corpse Cart from combat and shooting.

Spirit
03-12-2008, 00:33
While the Corpse Cart is certainly difficult to destroy inside any unit, I would avoid doing it. I stand by what I said before, the 6" radius on Unholy Lodestone and Miasma of Deathly Vigor is really very small. I can get several units in the ring of buffing if I pop out and stay between units, wheras inside a unit getting more than one or two units is hard (albeit, a Grave Guard unit with Great Weapons, a Vampire, and a BSB benefits far more from ASF than just about any other unit in the army list). Plus, I can still reasonably protect the Corpse Cart from combat and shooting.

Put him on the side of a unit, nowhere does it say that it must be in the middle, this makes it just as effective. As well as a very good unit filler and necromancer protector (give the necromancer the item to allow the units near to attack PLUS the CC's spell makes them a pretty neat combo)

Or if you are worried about the necromancer, give him the gem of blood and dont roll a one!

Odlox
05-10-2009, 13:56
He can indeed, in exactly the same way that Chaos lords on juggernaughts can join units of Chaos knights (or any other chaos unit)

Just for clarification: Juggernaut, demonic mount and other god specific mounts for WoC characters are not monstrous mounts. They have 1 wound and count as cavalry when mounted. GW just decided that WoC should have big beautiful mounts and figured that 50mm bases was needed. A char on juggernut dont even get the free pivot, and have to wheel.

Radium
05-10-2009, 14:19
Yeah people just dont attachthe carno as theirs little point.

Large target so can be picked out, no look out sir and hes liable to panic cause from the unit now.

But it's not a large target, so that's no argument. You can hide him behind a screen of skinks. Just for fun.

theunwantedbeing
05-10-2009, 14:27
Just for clarification: Juggernaut, demonic mount and other god specific mounts for WoC characters are not monstrous mounts. They have 1 wound and count as cavalry when mounted. GW just decided that WoC should have big beautiful mounts and figured that 50mm bases was needed. A char on juggernut dont even get the free pivot, and have to wheel.

Single models never wheel, they pivot.
Page 72 (& page 59)
They only wheel when part of a unit.

The advantage for a necro-on corpse cart is he can join a unit and massively aid the rank bonus (taking up 10 models of space), plus he gets a look out, sir! roll as he's only us4.

Add to that the combat ability of cart is quite useful and it keeps the necromancer alive a lot longer. Plus wounds allocated to the necro from crumble are first allocated to the cart and only once the cart has got 3 allocated wounds does the necro get allocated any.

So there are a fair few advantages to putting him on one.

Kitskin
05-10-2009, 14:35
Yeah people just dont attachthe carno as theirs little point.

Large target so can be picked out, no look out sir and hes liable to panic cause from the unit now.

Actually, the carnosaur is no longer a large target so can't be picked out. I see no reason not to include him in a unit apart from that he can perform well enough without them and avoids their stupidity.

Keller
05-10-2009, 14:59
Actually, the carnosaur is no longer a large target so can't be picked out. I see no reason not to include him in a unit apart from that he can perform well enough without them and avoids their stupidity.

You're quoting a post that is over a year and a half old. Still, I guess it warrents pointing out that it has changed.

Witchblade
05-10-2009, 15:37
Actually, the carnosaur is no longer a large target so can't be picked out. I see no reason not to include him in a unit apart from that he can perform well enough without them and avoids their stupidity.
He's US 5+ so he can be picked out with shooting.

TheDean04
06-10-2009, 02:55
No!!!! Not the "can Necros on CC join units argument" again! THEY CAN. We all figured this out over a year ago, please please read the FAQ before you go puffing out your chest declaring your right and everyone else who is telling you otherwise (because they read the FAQ) is wrong! Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, its just that this was discussed in great length a long time ago and the horse has rotted and been picked clean.

Lijacote
06-10-2009, 15:14
The irony of this thread being threadomanced is palpable.


We all figured this out over a year ago

Indeed.

Midevil216
07-10-2009, 16:12
It looks cool!! Thats why. :)

EvC
07-10-2009, 16:33
But still this thread did remind me to ask about look out sir! with the Necromancer on Corpse Cart set-up so it's not all bad that it was bumped. Now I don't know whether to keep using it or not...