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View Full Version : Could GW do any more to alienate veterans?



Marked_by_chaos
30-11-2008, 13:02
I usually am fairly acquiescent with GW's attitude but recently have become more than a bit miffed and am really thinking of pulling the plug.

I just have noticed a catalogue of unbelievable GW decisions

1) Turned away from playing a game with a mate in a pretty much empty GW store. Apparently people who aren't beginners can sometimes play after the other games on a saturday and not at all on a sunday. In one hour in store (on a sunday) no one else turned up with armies at all, but despite onlookers me and my mate couldn't play (althought the assistant let us set up for 10 minutes before telling us). When i first started i found the opportunity to watch veterans with painted large armies pretty inspiring. Apparently GW prefer 10 year olds with unpainted 750 point forces. n.b. I didn't know about their ridiculous policy before hand so wasn't just being belligerent.

2) Shunning of specialist games. Fair enough if you wan't to get rid but don't be disengenous GW just get rid and don't wheel out Jervis to pretend you give a ****.

3) Price rises based on "metal and oil prices" (or words to that effect). Don't suppose we will see the price of models lower now that they have halved or more (especially for blood knights and specialist miniatures - Leman Russ company in epic for £30. Whatever:mad:

4) Ending of bits - enough said

5) Inability to actually buy most of the miniatures in store. I wonder how much custom they have lost already.

6) Complete cluelessness as to what they are aiming at

Lord Damocles
30-11-2008, 13:27
1) Turned away from playing a game with a mate in a pretty much empty GW store. Apparently people who aren't beginners can sometimes play after the other games on a saturday and not at all on a sunday. In one hour in store (on a sunday) no one else turned up with armies at all, but despite onlookers me and my mate couldn't play (althought the assistant let us set up for 10 minutes before telling us). When i first started i found the opportunity to watch veterans with painted large armies pretty inspiring. Apparently GW prefer 10 year olds with unpainted 750 point forces. n.b. I didn't know about their ridiculous policy before hand so wasn't just being belligerent.
To be fair, I seem to remember that Saturady is 'Beginners Day' (or whatever they call it nowadays) - in the same way that Thursday is 'Veterans Day'.

The Sunday thing seems odd though. Depends on the size of the store, and what's planned for latter on in the day I guess:confused:



2) Shunning of specialist games. Fair enough if you wan't to get rid but don't be disengenous GW just get rid and don't wheel out Jervis to pretend you give a ****.
I'd rather they kept them but rendered Jervis down itno horse feed personally... Honestly, everything that man touches goes belly up.

The fact that nobody knows about the SG range anymore wouldn't bother me as much if it wasn't for the absurd price increases across the range.


3) Price rises based on "metal and oil prices" (or words to that effect). Don't suppose we will see the price of models lower now that they have halved or more (especially for blood knights and specialist miniatures - Leman Russ company in epic for £30. Whatever:mad:
Well this *is* GW. We should be glad we get 2% off from the VAT cut...:(


4) Ending of bits - enough said
I can see GW's point here actually. Keeping thousands of bits (I heard that sometimes whole models had to be cast just to get a sword part etc. which couldn't have been cheap either) must have beed *seriously* expensive. The reduced Bitz Range is a start (and is slowly expanding), but could do with some more work.


5) Inability to actually buy most of the miniatures in store. I wonder how much custom they have lost already.
This I agree with 100%.
Kill LOTR and get a better selection of 40K/Fantasy in store.

Ben
30-11-2008, 13:41
After the price rises I'm not sure any of the 20 odd players I know still buy any GW stuff direct from GW. Its best to buy from independant retailers for less who also actually have the stuff in stock.

GW have reduced the number of items they actually stock quite a bit. I play marines and there is stuff in the current codex I can't buy in stores anymore (Chaplain Cassius, Tigurius, Veteran sets, some of the Veteran sergeants, etc etc) that must be ordered direct only.

While the second wave releases for things like Orks are a great thing, and mean you can actually now get most of the ork range in plastic, and in general the latest generation of miniatures have been great, but given everyone is short of money at the moment, now is not the time for a price rise that for some models is 25-50%.

While GW have improved the flow of the game somewhat with 5th ed for 40k, and the slight improvement 7th ed warhammer was (basically nerfing magic a bit) the removal of specialist games and subsequent price rises on it (it is now significantly cheaper to buy epic tanks and titans from forgeworld) as well as shoddy FAQs and a bizarre attitude to pricing has pissed people off.

guillaume
30-11-2008, 13:54
Honestly, everything that man touches goes belly up.

Oh my...blood bowl, Jervis Jones baby is one of the better GW games and has as many players as any of the two big ones (fantasy/40K).

As for the store, I think store managers can just about decide life or death. So if he doesnt like the look of you, he can just make it hard on you, and you wont bother again.

Certainly here in the US where there are far fewer GW stores than in the UK, the hobby stores take over and are far more amicable to veterans. Quite often they have whole areas dedicated to playing open 6-7 days a week from midday to midnight often.

As for the bits, there as been a lot of discussion about it. I understand that it is a lot of bits to keep, and may not have financially viable. Although, there some bits are available on the warstore.com webstore, and a few store in the UK are doing the same. so there are options. There is only a selection of bits, but it is possible to get bits still.

Lord Malorne
30-11-2008, 14:06
After the price rises I'm not sure any of the 20 odd players I know still buy any GW stuff direct from GW. Its best to buy from independant retailers for less who also actually have the stuff in stock.


Actualy GW is now not letting indies stock quite a few items, barely any splash release stuff comes to them unless its a surplus and many army models are, and quote, 'only GW stores'.

That is another GW dumbass move.

I have been in an indie area for about 3 years now and the 'horror' stories of GW's being overrun by pocket money kids keeps growing, having visited my old GW stomping grounds a few times over the years it has become a pocket change kid business...sucks.

Oh and Jervis has done many good things...but now he is no longer doing good things.

Lord Damocles
30-11-2008, 14:14
Oh my...blood bowl, Jervis Jones baby is one of the better GW games and has as many players as any of the two big ones (fantasy/40K).
Touche :p

'Everything he touches - with the exception of Blood Bowl - goes belly up' then.

:)

starlight
30-11-2008, 14:24
Kill LOTR and get a better selection of 40K/Fantasy in store.

Except that it's an established fact that Lord of the Rings outsells Warhammer Fantasy...

Lord Malorne
30-11-2008, 14:29
Except that it's an established fact that Lord of the Rings outsells Warhammer Fantasy...

One day that will change, that day will be the day WD gets better!

Deus Mechanicus
30-11-2008, 18:18
Except that it's an established fact that Lord of the Rings outsells Warhammer Fantasy...

Sauce?....

theHandofGork
30-11-2008, 19:12
To the op's original points-

1) Don't play in GW stores, so I can't comment. However, I have shopped in a few, and the one that was closest to where I lived was particularly bad. There was the feeling that if you weren't buying anything you were wasting the store's time and should leave. Apparently there's a new manager who is much better at this store now, but I still hesitate to go back.
2) I agree that GW should just come out with it and say, "We don't care about the SG" instead of trailing us along with false hopes. I can understand why this isn't done, and why it's a bad business move, but it seems obvious SG's are on the back burner.
3) Prices are steep. Some of the plastic box sets make things a bit more manageable, but combine rising prices with rules that need more models and the removal of support for the the skirmish games- that ticks me off.
4) If the new bits system was in place when the old system was removed I would have been a happy camper. Instead we get space marine shoulder pads and.... more space marine shoulder pads. And that's about it. I understand the need for a new way of supplying bits, but this should have been worked out before cutting it off.
5) I shop at my independent FLGS. I have no comment on this.
6) GW may have a great business plan for the next five years. They may have an awesome release schedule with lots of cool things coming out. They may have a plan on how each system will develop in the coming years. I have no clue because no one discusses anything outside of the three month window. This is inane. What we have here, is a failure to communicate.

Some things you may have forgotten, or just don't care about-
WD, price increase and substance decrease.
New website which removed a lot of "hobby" articles and info.
Continued game imbalance- people argue this back and forth, but if a seriously large number of gamers think this is a problem, then there is a problem, at least in perception.
Communication between company and consumer- nearly nil.
And a general attitude of- "This is the only way to play the game" permeating the design philosophy.

Gwedd
30-11-2008, 20:39
To start with, I don't live anywhere near a GW store. The closest one is about 3.5 hours drive from me.

I purchase nearly ALL my GW products through ebay or the WarStore and have been pleased with everything so far. Buying through ebay has saved me literally hundreds of dollars, and if you know what you are doing and deal only with reputable sellers (check out their feedback ratings) you can score some excellent deals.

I have never understood GW, they are a corporation with a good rating, but their business practices seem like they're thought up by someone with ADD.

BUT, it's THEIR business. I only buy their products because I want to finish off the armies I am working on. I never buy their paints or hobby supplies, however. Just minis and books, etc.

Brinnyunlimited
01-12-2008, 02:48
Except that it's an established fact that Lord of the Rings outsells Warhammer Fantasy...

People keep repeating this like a mantra without showing any valid sources. Where are your recent sales figures? I'm fully aware that LOTR well outsold Fantasy around the time of the film triology, but I find it REALLY hard to believe that LOTR is STILL outselling Warhammer Fantasy today.

Ben
01-12-2008, 07:16
Given the lack of LOTR releases (1 per year compared to Fantasy) I think that may no longer be the case. While LOTR did bring a lot of money in when the trilogy was released, the support it receives now makes it hard for me to believe that is the case. If it were still a big seller, they'd be doing two big splash releases per year.

zedeyejoe
01-12-2008, 09:59
In 37 years of gaming I have played in a GW store 3 times. I reckon I can live without it.

Jedi152
01-12-2008, 10:11
Exactly.

TBH i see it much the same was as GW does. You're veterans, you should be able to look after yourself by now. You probably have several armies and a gaming group to play with, so why do you need GW?

I'm upset that specialist games have got the shove off, but that's because i still want stuff from the ranges. Once i have a few gangs/teams and plenty of regular opponents, i'm set.

Hrafn
01-12-2008, 10:26
Going by Horus84's post he is either new to the internet and/or a GW shill :rolleyes:

:eyebrows: Going by your post, you are either a troll or incapable of understanding that YOUR opinion is not a god-given eternal truth....

Horus has some good point and I agree for the main part. Though I disagree that the removal of the bitz service is a minor annoyance. I do realize that it was cost-intensive, but I believe that from a business POV it was one of GW's major strengths in comparison with competitors, so it may not have the best decision in the long run (and to be honost, as a hobbyist I miss it dearly :cries:)

As to prices...sigh....here we go again...

1. GW is a luxury item, not a neccesity. If its too expensive for you, don't buy it. You have no "right" to able to purchase a luxury hobby item. Go look up what other hobbies (cars, golf, fishing to mention some) cost, and you might realize that this one is not that expensive.
2. GW is NOT, and I repeat NOT, more expensive than direct competitors of equivilant quality and substance. Go take a look at their IMO closest competitor, Privateer Press. Go to their webside and please tell me what a full unit of Trollkin Kriel Warriors+attachments cost IRL money, and then come back and whine that GW's rank-and-file minis are expensive. You can, while you are there, look up Trollkin Long Riders and compare them to the much-maligned Blood Knights...
(Disclaimer: I am situated in Europe. There are be some differences in price according to geographical location. This comment is from an European POV)

As to the immature hatez towards Jervis and all his "failed games" which have gone "belly up" (you know, like Blood Bowl and Epic which are the two GW games most often cited as the best designed): :rolleyes:

Has GW done some mistakes in dealing with vets? Sure! I am not too happy either with their handling of us, but it would be nice if we could concentrate on those issues rather than the usual whinefests about imaginary slights like high prices, Jervis' character and the ultimate wickedness of LOTR.....

EDIT: Sorry for the weird placement of the post before Horus and Tyron's posts. Something went wrong when I replied...

Osbad
01-12-2008, 10:34
Lastly a note on this whole LOTR hate. It is just sad. The game is not going anywhere and if you play properly is very good and very tactical. Yes releaseshave been slowed down but that because they are obviously waiting for the Hobbit movies, which they have signed up for if rumour is true (though the movies themselves are running late as they where planned for 08/09 but then eveyone involved decided to sue each other so we are now getting them in 2010/11). They have got the massive expansion out next year, which they are already advertising in the WD (4 months early). What I find really ironic is that with the LOTR franchise the hobby would not be a big as it was now and 40k and fantasy gamer would not have all the great plastics kits that are coming out like baneblade, stompa's and stegadons! since LOTR paided for all the machines and tech involved in their creation.


QFT.

Anyone who is so woefully ignorant of the benefit that LotR brought to the table needs to get off their lazy, bigoted arses and do a little research. Hitting "LotR" into the Warseer search function would be a start. Then they should read the detailed discussions that have gone on here over the past 7 years.

Suck it up gentlemen, if LotR hadn't happened (and continued to provide somewhere between 10-28% of GW's turnover, figures acknowledged by Jervis and others at various seminars, and confirmed anecdotally by various GW area sales reps) GW as a company would have been bankrupt a couple of years back.

Suck it up people. LotR saved your favourite games and continues to be popular. The fact that you personally don't like it is of about as much importance as a piece of fluff on my cat's bum...

You of course, are entitled to your opinions, however uninformed and ignorant. Just as you are entitled to believe that the world is flat and the moon is made of green cheese.

Osbad
01-12-2008, 10:41
Because of the attention the game gets, it takes up 'WD space' and most people do not consider it one of the 'main' games, yet sadly GW insists it is, it is not a GW creation, it is a game with models based off another fantasy worlds...world.

Oh PERLEEES!

Fact1.

If LotR didn't exist WD would be 20 pages smaller. WD expanded to incorporate LotR. It took nothing off anybody. Go back and check WD page count from 2002 if you don't believe me.

And new games developers were recruited to develop the hobby - Mat Ward and Adam Troke. No developers were sacked or diverted to develop LoTR.

Instead, because of the cash LotR generated in its "Bubble" period in 2002 to 2004, GW were able to purchase and experiment with new plastics casting technology - which resulted in the ability to make much more extensive plastic kits, such as the Giant and the Baneblade, and the new Black Reach sprues. None of which technology benefited the LotR game directly, until they brought out the plastic Troll kit earlier this year.

Get your facts right before you perpetrate lies and misinformation.

Sure the internet is a free space in many ways, but my tolerance for ignorant and foolish viewpoints is limited.

wilycoyote
01-12-2008, 10:49
Hi,

I can see where the OP is coming from but am a little surprised that this came as a shock to him. I gave up playing at GW stores a few years ago. Fanboy teenagers with a blatant disregard for anything but winning, who literally cried if you beat them anyway. The people who pick up your models without permission and proceed to break a pice off or worse still "accidently" put it their box (naughty, broken fingers tend to follow). Above all the staffers.....I am no rules expert but some of these were hard pressed to know the basics and if you told them just got snotty.

Guess what I went back and nothing had changed Independent stores or clubs are a far better bet.

As for Jervis, I for one will stand up for him. He gave us some of the best systems in the GW catalogue - Adeptus Titanicus, Blood Bowl and Epic Armageddon. Proble is as the "old man" he is wheeled out to issue the latest excuse and get the flak. c'mon the real culprits are never seen - "come on down Alessio"

Ah enough, this is a game and is played not contested.

Wilyc

IJW
01-12-2008, 11:08
People keep repeating this like a mantra without showing any valid sources. Where are your recent sales figures? I'm fully aware that LOTR well outsold Fantasy around the time of the film triology, but I find it REALLY hard to believe that LOTR is STILL outselling Warhammer Fantasy today.
Depends. Gamers in mainland Europe have tended to go for high fantasy rather than generic fantasy for decades now, so I can easily see LotR still outselling WFB in countries like France and Germany.

A couple of other factors to bear in mind is that LotR players usually play outside GW stores due to all the irrational prejudice from other players, and the same goes for Warseer forums, so LotR activity you see in those places is not representative. Plus The Hobbit starts filming in not much over a year.

For reference, I've never played LotR, so I'm no fanbot - I just don't understand the irrational hatred a lot of Warseer members hold for the game.

Lord Malorne
01-12-2008, 11:29
For reference, I've never played LotR, so I'm no fanbot - I just don't understand the irrational hatred a lot of Warseer members hold for the game.

Because of the attention the game gets, it takes up 'WD space' and most people do not consider it one of the 'main' games, yet sadly GW insists it is, it is not a GW creation, it is a game with models based off another fantasy worlds...world.

IJW
01-12-2008, 11:48
it is a game with models based off another fantasy worlds...world.
Are you talking about LotR or Warhammer? :p

Lord Malorne
01-12-2008, 11:55
We are all aware of GW's lack of creation, yet 40k is a good setting, fantasy sucks a bit but thats GW's problem...LotR's is a leech.

Imus
01-12-2008, 12:10
as a previous member of staff, it is true that the weekends are aimed at getting beginners in and running events to show case products. Gaming nights, renamed from veterans nights are for older gamers (14 to 16 + depending on store). I did try catering for over 18's running a late night once a month, but through bad timing and lack of promotion by myself it never really took off. Its all down to the staff in regards to gaming at a store. But the stores are aimed at introducing people then using the GCN to then get them out of the stores playing other people, its where alot of the older gamers go.

Now xmas for gw is a busy time in the UK its pretty much decides if its gonna make or break them financially. So i suspect gaming wont be a priority for them.

Specialist games, lol. I think if you ask any GW manager or area manager the answer is pretty much, 'we dont care about it, the stuff is on the web free, we are not interested'.


I like Jervis. Despite possibly being the most boring man alive. He does give some gd advice and answers and then does some very bizzare things. At heat 2 when he did alittle presentation and Q and A session he was very helpful. But he really didnt give a decent reason to making everything universal. Also he did state that at one time that the company was driven by targets etc but know is not. I think that is rather ******** to be honest. Stores have kpi's and a variety of targets to make, i think they are very financially driven. But then that is their job as a company.

blongbling
01-12-2008, 12:10
Actualy GW is now not letting indies stock quite a few items, barely any splash release stuff comes to them unless its a surplus and many army models are, and quote, 'only GW stores'.

.

totally unture. GW allows all its indies to order the exact same range that is held in a GW store.

Gw also allows all stores to order limited/splash edition.

GW doesnt do any "gw store only" items, they do however do mail order only items.

If you want to quote GW's business practices i would suggest you get it right first

Lord Malorne
01-12-2008, 12:13
Wrong!

You cannot get certain items and some times they are either offered to indies and then taken away, for instance, the Baal predator was not available and now is at my Indie, another is the Konrad von Carstein, he is not availible to indies.

I was not quoting business practices FYI.

I am in the UK BTW so I do not know if you are or not?

Hrafn
01-12-2008, 12:41
QFT.

Anyone who is so woefully ignorant of the benefit that LotR brought to the table needs to get off their lazy, bigoted arses and do a little research. Hitting "LotR" into the Warseer search function would be a start. Then they should read the detailed discussions that have gone on here over the past 7 years.

:D

I forgot it, but I was about to add to my post that I wished Osbad would soon come around to reply to the LOTR hatez...Sometimes wishes do come true :angel:

Brinnyunlimited
01-12-2008, 12:45
As far as I'm aware, the trade list for indies is made up of the top x (x being a number I'm not quite sure of) sellers in the entire range - hence items disapearing and re-appearing at certain intervals.

For example, the Ironbreakers Command box set has recently dropped out of the top sellers, so is currently unavailable to indies. (How this matches up with the stock GW stores sells I can't tell you - I haven't been in a GW for quite some time.)

FraustyTheSnowman
01-12-2008, 12:48
As a fan of necromunda I think a lot of the dislike for lord of the rings is justified. We had a pretty cool game. Rules could have been a little better, but the storyline and themes were fun, entertaining, and interesting. But you didn't need to buy a hundred guys to play, so it gets dropped. Making money vs pleasing customers, I work in retail, I get it. Now, lotr comes out, and every snot nosed brat with his hand in moma's purse just loves the hot kewl nu thing...and a lot of die hard fantasy vets fall into the trap as well, so gw jumps on the bandwagon and shoves lotr, lord of the rings, Lord of the Rings, LORD OF THE BLOODY FRAGGING RING!!!! down our throats. So, no, I don't blame anyone for disliking it.

Personaly I really like the miniatures. Never been bothered to look at the rules to indepthly, as I don't particularly care for the books or the movies, so I feel no need to recreate scenes from them, but they have some sexy pewter. What my gripe is, I have a daemon prince I can't use in tournaments unless the organizer/judge wants to bend the rules, because it's a mordor troll with greenstuff. I have a ton of chaos mutant dudes who I can't use, because their orks with autoguns. I don't go to a lot of tournaments, and I refuse to play in gw stores, so this isn't a huge issue, but it has come up, and I was blown away. "Sorry man, can't use that guy that guy or that guy. Nice job on them by the way. If you want I've got a gw daemon prince you could buy and slap some citadel paint on him before your first game. Got some really good gw brushes to put the paint on with." yeah...like I said, I work in reatail, I get it. What he really ment to say was "I feel like being a jerk, you might have money, money that I want, so I'm going to slather you with my proposition, cuz when it comes right down to it I'm just a whore who stopped caring about gaming when I started working sallary, and you look like an easy mark."

gw signed something saying they wouldn't allow lotr minis in their tournaments and what not, this is the official answer when I asked about it. K...this is what I call bending over and taking it to make money. Their making a fair amount of cash with what they have, but they see this great opportunity to make MORE, so they jump on it. In order to get the money they have to sell out their product, and sell out their customers. My only question was how long it took them to decide...

taffeh
01-12-2008, 12:59
Or he could have some valid points, that you just don't/ won't accept :o

I agree with the guy from Notingham, the points are valid from a business PoV.

(The bitz releases have all been a bit 'meh' except for the Sonic Weapons for me and I find myself turning to Bitzbox or ebay constantly).

However as a customer - I still agree with the original poster's comments on some things.

I'm quite lucky that the main store that I play in, Swansea (and I live in Reading, 150 miles away!) has a cool selection of staff and vets that I can get a game in most times I head back - which is weekends. Unfortinatly I never get chances to go to the vet night there unless I book several days off work.

blongbling
01-12-2008, 13:01
Wrong!

You cannot get certain items and some times they are either offered to indies and then taken away, for instance, the Baal predator was not available and now is at my Indie, another is the Konrad von Carstein, he is not availible to indies.

I was not quoting business practices FYI.

I am in the UK BTW so I do not know if you are or not?

the range of products available to the indie market in the UK is the same as the produt range in the GW sotres. products do come and go, in exactly the same way as they do for GW retail stores as well but teh ranges are consistent between the stores and indies

blongbling
01-12-2008, 13:02
As far as I'm aware, the trade list for indies is made up of the top x (x being a number I'm not quite sure of) sellers in the entire range - hence items disapearing and re-appearing at certain intervals.

For example, the Ironbreakers Command box set has recently dropped out of the top sellers, so is currently unavailable to indies. (How this matches up with the stock GW stores sells I can't tell you - I haven't been in a GW for quite some time.)

The trade list is designed to show only the top selling lines that will generate the most profit for the indie stores. You can however order outside that range of products but it isnt recommended. the range of prouducts for indies matches that of GW retail stores

Horus84
01-12-2008, 13:08
Going by Horus84's post he is either new to the internet and/or a GW shill :rolleyes:


Or I could be someone has been one Warseer for a fair amount of time but does not post often unless he has something to say (or vent in this case). I genenerally use warseer because of the amount of pic got of upcomming releases and discuss rules problems and tactics - rather than wine and bemoan every little thing GW does.

Yep I played GW for a long time (13 odd years) and on the whole I have enjoyed and have been entertained by what they have released. However I did not like something then I would not buy or play it - I can think for myself and I am not a sheep. So please don't accuse me of being one, you don't know me.


(what the hell is up with this page. I posted this after the quote but it has placed it before?)

Sleazy
01-12-2008, 13:20
whilst I agree that GW needs a lot of improvement, it has always been this way in GWs local to me.

Sundays at GW Newcastle and Metrocentre were kidz klub only when I worked there 8 years ago and they are still that now (though Newcastle now have a bunker they may allow for use on a Sunday - I havent tried).

I dont see the problem, by the same token on "vets" night we didnt allow mewling 8 years olds with their emulsion dipped Marnius Calgar and asorted mismatchs (usually wrapped in kitchen roll and stuffed in a biscuit tin.

I'm a vet, I know what I'm doing so 9 times out of 10 I play at home. Now and again if I wanna play in store I go on the appropriate day. Personally I dont want a creche in store when I'm playing.

Sleazy
01-12-2008, 13:22
sorry, duplicate post

taffeh
01-12-2008, 13:31
Or he could have some valid points, that you just don't/ won't accept :o

I agree with the guy from Notingham, the points are valid from a business PoV.

(The bitz releases have all been a bit 'meh' except for the Sonic Weapons for me and I find myself turning to Bitzbox or ebay constantly).

However as a customer - I still agree with the original poster's comments on some things.

I'm quite lucky that the main store that I play in, Swansea (and I live in Reading, 150 miles away!) has a cool selection of staff and vets that I can get a game in most times I head back - which is weekends. Unfortinatly I never get chances to go to the vet night there unless I book several days off work.

Sidstyler
01-12-2008, 13:47
One of the best places to find people that have no spine and will moan about anything and everything, since they can hide behind the PC.


So please don't accuse me of being one, you don't know me.

Which I of course read as "You can't judge me but I'm going to judge you, whiner." :rolleyes:

Lord Malorne
01-12-2008, 14:30
Oh PERLEEES!

Fact1.

If LotR didn't exist WD would be 20 pages smaller. WD expanded to incorporate LotR. It took nothing off anybody. Go back and check WD page count from 2002 if you don't believe me.

And new games developers were recruited to develop the hobby - Mat Ward and Adam Troke. No developers were sacked or diverted to develop LoTR.

Instead, because of the cash LotR generated in its "Bubble" period in 2002 to 2004, GW were able to purchase and experiment with new plastics casting technology - which resulted in the ability to make much more extensive plastic kits, such as the Giant and the Baneblade, and the new Black Reach sprues. None of which technology benefited the LotR game directly, until they brought out the plastic Troll kit earlier this year.

I have and do not deny that LotR sold well, heck thats bloody obvious, I do not like the LotR hobby, I am biased in my opinion towards LotR because I do not like it, I have read the book and was one of the few people who did not like it, I saw the movies and was only interested in the battle scenes (which had there own problems) I am not pretending. I do not like LotR. That is a fact, what I have posted prior is my perceived reasons for disliking LotR.

As I have said I am biased, but even though I am biased I can see your side of the argument and agree with you, you seem to be unable to accept the bad things about LotR, I do not like it, but I have to admit that it did make money, but it has not always made money, I think one year (can't remember which) it had a cold year and lost money, but in general it has continuosly made money year in year out.

If it has not made money then it would go the route of the SG's, instead of getting new stuff and new expansions, which shows how sucessful it has been, BUT, I see it as a necessary evil of the Hobby, money aside, I don't see the point in this game being a GW game...MONEY ASIDE.


Get your facts right before you perpetrate lies and misinformation.

Sure the internet is a free space in many ways, but my tolerance for ignorant and foolish viewpoints is limited.


Whatever, you seem to be the one calling people ignorant which says more about you.

EmperorNorton
01-12-2008, 14:52
If it has not made money then it would go the route of the SG's, instead of getting new stuff and new expansions, which shows how sucessful it has been, BUT, I see it as a necessary evil of the Hobby, money aside, I don't see the point in this game being a GW game...MONEY ASIDE.

What is the point of GW's other games being GW games?
You know, money aside.

Brinnyunlimited
01-12-2008, 15:19
Going by Horus84's post he is either new to the internet and/or a GW shill :rolleyes:


I don't agree with ALL of Horus's points, but he's right on one thing. Warseer is full of people whining about next to nothing! The OP is complaining that Specialist Games aren't supported by GW! THE RULES ARE AVAILABLE FOR FREE ON THE INTERNET!!! Games like Blood Bowl don't need a constant stream of new releases and updates, you buy the boxed set and a couple of teams once and voila, You're set for life. What more do you need from Games Workshop? A blueshirt to suck you off while you play?

TheLionReturns
01-12-2008, 15:26
Could GW do any more to alienate veterans?

Well they could arrange for their staff to insult veterans on sight. Perhaps the most effective method would be to simply refuse to sell anything to anyone over a certain age. There is plenty of scope for GW to ramp up their anti-vet policy should they wish. ;)




1) Turned away from playing a game with a mate in a pretty much empty GW store. Apparently people who aren't beginners can sometimes play after the other games on a saturday and not at all on a sunday. In one hour in store (on a sunday) no one else turned up with armies at all, but despite onlookers me and my mate couldn't play (althought the assistant let us set up for 10 minutes before telling us). When i first started i found the opportunity to watch veterans with painted large armies pretty inspiring. Apparently GW prefer 10 year olds with unpainted 750 point forces. n.b. I didn't know about their ridiculous policy before hand so wasn't just being belligerent.

I agree that ideally if tables are unoccupied anyone should be able to play. I also agree that vets gaming can be inspirational, if hey have well painted and converted armies and play in the right spirit. However I do have some sympathy with GW staff on this one. They try to cater for vets with a specific vet night, and since the primary function of GW stores is to teach beginners and draw them into the hobby they really need to cater for this. Better to keep tables free for this than let some experienced players start playing and then kick them off later in order to perform their primary role.

Ideally there would be so much space and so many tables this would never be an issue. Alas this isn't the case and constraints mean that sometimes such annoying situations occur.

I do feel GW could make better use of vets in selling the hobby and inspiring new gamers, provided they are decent sports with painted armies. Most vets in my experience are happy to pass on their knowledge and enthusiasm, and this is a free resource for GW to tap.



2) Shunning of specialist games. Fair enough if you wan't to get rid but don't be disengenous GW just get rid and don't wheel out Jervis to pretend you give a ****.

The problem with specialist games is that they don't need as many models on the whole and aren't as profitable. I think with the growth in plastics and the variety in new plastic kits SG's on the same scale as core games are becomingly increasingly catered for model wise if indirectly, and that the situation is likely to improve. Epic and Warmaster remain a problem though. Still some new scults would be very nice and perhaps give SG's a shot in the arm in terms of popularity, as finding opponents is often the biggest problem.

It would be nice if they were promoted a bit more by GW, both through WD and by exhibition games in store. I think some of the loss of gamers could be reduced by offering them something new like the specialist games. Also some people are more attracted to the other games. Bloodbowl for example, dragged me back into the hobby after a long break, and is a very different type of game to anything else offered by GW.

I am of the belief that the current free living rulebook system is fine, so in terms of rule support I don't see a problem. As for expansions to the SG's I think this is something vets do best themselves. The Ash Wastes rules for Necromunda are pretty impressive and I have also been very impressed by the Recongregator Sourcebook recently produced for Inquisitor for example. Rather than feeling alienated I like the idea that GW has confidence in vets to adapt their games.



3) Price rises based on "metal and oil prices" (or words to that effect). Don't suppose we will see the price of models lower now that they have halved or more (especially for blood knights and specialist miniatures - Leman Russ company in epic for £30. Whatever:mad:

Most companies put off price rises as long as possible. As a result a lowering of commodity prices rarely sees an immediate drop in retail prices as the cost of absorbing these price rises has to be resolved. That said I am highly skeptical about the influence of metal prices on GW costs, I can't see how they can be a significant proportion of total costs. Oil prices in terms of distribution and energy costs seem more of a factor, but with them you are waiting on the utilities companies to lower prices which will also take time as they have also been delaying their own price rises.

I do not personally feel slighted by no immediate drop in prices. There are certain products that look incredibly over priced though and GW needs to address these IMO.



4) Ending of bits - enough said

I am still witholding judgement on this although it is quite annoying for those of us who like converting. The bits packs have been fairly good IMO and the fact is that as the range had grown something had to be done to address the costs incurred by supplying all of those individual bits. I will reserve any final judgement until the all intended bits packs are on offer.

I also think we should consider that the newer plastic kits have lots of options in that help with converting and allow the building of a sizeable bits collection over time. Whilst the loss of the bits service is a negative for converters, new plastic kits are a boon. Overall it is a pain but one I understand is necessary.



5) Inability to actually buy most of the miniatures in store. I wonder how much custom they have lost already.

They only have so much space, this is the price that you pay for having such a wide range of products. I don't really buy in store at all now, either buying direct from GW online or from independent online retailers instead. That said I no longer consider GW stores as shops but more as showrooms so maybe that helps lessen my annoyance.



6) Complete cluelessness as to what they are aiming at

I'm not sure quite what you mean here, but I do sense a bit of a lack of vision regarding development. The inconsistencies bought about by the new SM codex are one example of a trend of inconsistency that seems to show no long term joined up thinking. It would be nice to see the long term design plan for the games to be spelled out. The inconsistencies bought about by new products would be easier to accept if you knew it was part of a long term plan that would be stuck to. I know this long term commitment perhaps constrains games designers but a solid terms of reference is no bad thing in other creative walks of life.


I have come across here as being quite defensive about GW's treatment of vets. The points you make are concerns but I guess I can understand and accept why they happen. Despite this I do share the feeling of alienation. I am very much in the school of though that vets can look after themselves. However, I think it would be good for GW to recognise its vets a bit more. Perhaps by promoting some of the good fan made things like the BoLS campaign books in store or in WD. Perhaps showcasing some of the armies of vets apart from Golden Demon might also help. Simple acknowledgements like these would probably help quell a lot of dissent.

Not all vets are good rolemodels but some show how the hobby can be taken to new levels and enjoyed for many years. They are a good asset for the retention of new customers, yet I get the impression we are shunned rather than embraced.

Miggidy Mack
01-12-2008, 16:42
Or he could have some valid points, that you just don't/ won't accept :o

What? But clearly any opinion other than my own is wrong! If you disagree with me fine, that's your opinion... and it's wrong.

Bob5000
01-12-2008, 17:07
So , its all LOTR fault for ruining GW :rolleyes:.

I usually try to be polite on Forums , but I have seen this anti LOTR *line being spouted before on Warseer , and its complete garbage :mad:.

Max Jet
01-12-2008, 17:15
Going by Horus84's post he is either new to the internet and/or a GW shill
Or he could have some valid points, that you just don't/ won't accept

You mean like this one? XD


eh? You mean apart from contantly striving to produce the best quailty mini's in the market - which on the whole they do, with some exceptions and wanting to get more people involved with our great hobby - you know like a community thing -

I am quite interested what miniatures and model kits other than GW (and possibly airfix) this guy had in his hands.

TOPIC

I think for such things GW should have a mail adress where you could be able to send complaints about not being able to play in a store because "beginner go first".

Lord Malorne
01-12-2008, 17:43
So , its all LOTR fault for ruining GW :rolleyes:.

I usually try to be polite on Forums , but I have seen this anti LOTR *line being spouted before on Warseer , and its complete garbage :mad:.

No, its not.

If we think it is LotR fault then by reasoning it out, it is LotR fault...because we think it is. Though not solely, I have yet to meet anyone who blames LotR as the sole problem, but it is in the top five.

Hrafn
01-12-2008, 17:56
I am quite interested what miniatures and model kits other than GW (and possibly airfix) this guy had in his hands.".

And I would like to know what minis you have in your hands?

Before you resort further to strawmen, please read the quote from Horus and you might realize he said minis and not model kits.

You know, your opinion carries a bit more weight when backed up by substance instead of snarkiness....

I don't agree that GW produces the finest minis in the world, but their metals are still damn good, and IMO their plastic minis are second to none.


I I think for such things GW should have a mail adress where you could be able to send complaints about not being able to play in a store because "beginner go first".

:confused: Wouldn't it be better if GW adopted a more open mentality towards consumer interaction first - what good would an e-mail adress do if the organization is not prepared to act on it? Also, wouldn't it be better if you interacted directly with the store which caused frustration, rather than simple centralized e-mail adress?

Tyron
01-12-2008, 18:11
Incorrect Bjorn Hellhammer.

Horus84
01-12-2008, 18:19
I love the internet and forums. One of the best places to find people that have no spine and will moan about anything and everything, since they can hide behind the PC. I was under the impression that this site was supposed to be a place to celebrate the wargaming hobby in all its forms and guises. I find it quite hilarious the range of small pointless complaints and wining that goes on eps all the contast hate towards GW just because they are the biggest in the industry and how everything they do is a direct personal attack on any individual moaner in question (which is self centre and pathetic at best).

To the OP


1) Turned away from playing a game with a mate in a pretty much empty GW store. Apparently people who aren't beginners can sometimes play after the other games on a saturday and not at all on a sunday. In one hour in store (on a sunday) no one else turned up with armies at all, but despite onlookers me and my mate couldn't play (althought the assistant let us set up for 10 minutes before telling us). When i first started i found the opportunity to watch veterans with painted large armies pretty inspiring. Apparently GW prefer 10 year olds with unpainted 750 point forces. n.b. I didn't know about their ridiculous policy before hand so wasn't just being belligerent.

How a store is run is down to indivudal managers. At my store on Sunday any gamer can come down anytime and play a game. One table is dedicated to the beginners - NO ONE EVER COMPLAINS. Saturdays are similar though a table is always taken up by the "day event" for part of the day. We don't get late nights due to the store's shopping centre location so think yourself lucky that your store has a gaming night at all - GW has always provided this service because they want to NOT because they have to. They could just do normal retail trading hours and leave everyone to play at home or local clubs!



2) Shunning of specialist games. Fair enough if you wan't to get rid but don't be disengenous GW just get rid and don't wheel out Jervis to pretend you give a ****.

These games get plenty of love at my store - which is down to the excellent staff talking about them. At my store they are honest about it. The store does not have room to carry that much stock, which is unfortunate and due to the release schdual being so packe they personally don't have time to run campaings for them etc... but they are happy to see them played and pomote campaings if a regular runs them. I appreciate that they still sell the models at all. They easily could just drop them - many other compaines would with very old product - how many Super NES's do you see Nintendo making?


3) Price rises based on "metal and oil prices" (or words to that effect). Don't suppose we will see the price of models lower now that they have halved or more (especially for blood knights and specialist miniatures - Leman Russ company in epic for £30. Whatever

Wargaming is a luxuay hobby. By it's nature it is costly. It always has been. get over it. I remember when a pot of paint cost 75p but a I also remeber when a penny sweet cost a penny and when commputer games cost £10 not £50, like they are now. GW are a busness like any other and will always need to keep set profit margings like any other company. Christ it Supermarkets that wind me with the cost of food - that little thing I need to survive. How much profit did Tesco make last year? that right 2.55 BILLION are you telling me they could not 1/2 the price of food and still walk home will MILLIONS. That is scandelus


4) Ending of bits - enough said
You try maintaining, counting and looking after over 10,000 compoents. Yes it a little annoying but they are slowing re-introducing stuff - just in a better control manner. What other companies keeps such an extensive back cataolgue


5) Inability to actually buy most of the miniatures in store. I wonder how much custom they have lost already.

Ermm.. Could the finite space in store be a small issue with this. They carry the most important stuff on the whole and anything you do need can be order in to the store free postage - not many high street retailers will do that.



6) Complete cluelessness as to what they are aiming at

eh? You mean apart from contantly striving to produce the best quailty mini's in the market - which on the whole they do, with some exceptions and wanting to get more people involved with our great hobby - you know like a community thing -


Lastly a note on this whole LOTR hate. It is just sad. The game is not going anywhere and if you play properly is very good and very tactical. Yes releaseshave been slowed down but that because they are obviously waiting for the Hobbit movies, which they have signed up for if rumour is true (though the movies themselves are running late as they where planned for 08/09 but then eveyone involved decided to sue each other so we are now getting them in 2010/11). They have got the massive expansion out next year, which they are already advertising in the WD (4 months early). What I find really ironic is that with the LOTR franchise the hobby would not be a big as it was now and 40k and fantasy gamer would not have all the great plastics kits that are coming out like baneblade, stompa's and stegadons! since LOTR paided for all the machines and tech involved in their creation.

marv335
01-12-2008, 18:37
Simply put, If you need GW to hold your hand, you're not a veteran.

Madfool2
01-12-2008, 20:33
Going by Horus84's post he is either new to the internet and/or a GW shill :rolleyes:

Well...it's better than being a cynical fool :p

Seriously, the hate is depressing.

Tyron
01-12-2008, 21:29
Going by Horus84's post he is either new to the internet and/or a GW shill :rolleyes:

Bookwrak
01-12-2008, 21:52
No, its not.

If we think it is LotR fault then by reasoning it out, it is LotR fault...because we think it is. Though not solely, I have yet to meet anyone who blames LotR as the sole problem, but it is in the top five.

If you're going to claim something is a problem, you actually have to provide a reason for why it's so. It's a game that's making money and people are having fun playing, so the problem is...?

I guess I'll have to break it to you gently - just because it's an opinion doesn't mean it's wrong. I've run across a couple of people who vehemently hate Space Marines, and think the best thing that could ever happen is for GW to ditch them completly. Now, that's a nice little opinion they have there, but, it's wrong.

Also, what's up with the post order in this thread?

Tyron
01-12-2008, 22:24
Incorrect Bjorn Hellhammer.

Gwedd
01-12-2008, 23:13
I find it quite hilarious the range of small pointless complaints and wining that goes on eps all the contast hate towards GW just because they are the biggest in the industry and how everything they do is a direct personal attack on any individual moaner in question (which is self centre and pathetic at best).

Comrade,

If you actually believe that GW is the biggest in the industry, then you really need to get out more. GW has a very small percentage of the wargaming industry, and other companies like Foundry, Essex, Renegade, MiniFigs, etc, all have large portfolios and pretty good sales to boot.

Many of the Cons, like Historicon & Origins, dwarf any game day you might have attended. Heavens, the vendors and sales areas at Historicon are bigger than the gaming hall(s) at Games Day.

Plastic figure-wise, the new Perry plastics and the Warlord Games minis, plus Victrix plastic Napoleonics are as good as, or better than GW sculpts, and at comparable or less prices. You think GW is ever going to put 36-52 detailed multi-pose 28mm plastic minis in one package for 12-20 pounds?

GW is a part of the wargaming hobby. It has a nice niche, and a good line of minis and supporting items, but it is far from the largest in the industry by a long margin.

Respects,

Temprus
01-12-2008, 23:41
Could GW do any more to alienate veterans?
Don't challenge them, they might be up to it! :angel:

Bjorn Hellhammer
01-12-2008, 23:50
Going by Horus84's post he is either new to the internet and/or a GW shill :rolleyes:

Or he could have some valid points, that you just don't/ won't accept :o

spiderhaiku
02-12-2008, 01:58
If you actually believe that GW is the biggest in the industry, then you really need to get out more.

Many of the Cons, like Historicon & Origins, dwarf any game day you might have attended. Heavens, the vendors and sales areas at Historicon are bigger than the gaming hall(s) at Games Day.

I dont know where you get your information from, but i think this might be a case of americans thinking america = the world (ala world series etc.) again (which i never really have understood)

As far as I can find just serching quickly on the internet Hisoricon Lancaster PA in 2007 had 4000+ in attendance, im guessing thats over the four days the event ran? (source: http://www.boardgamers.org/seminars/historicon.pdf page 10.)

Where as the attendance for games day 2008 UK (which i did attend) was 9500+ for one day (source: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=10700001)

Perhaps you know of a Historicon/Origins event that is bigger, but I couldn't find any figures.

Lord Malorne
02-12-2008, 02:07
the range of products available to the indie market in the UK is the same as the produt range in the GW sotres. products do come and go, in exactly the same way as they do for GW retail stores as well but teh ranges are consistent between the stores and indies

So why was/is Konrad not availible aswell as several new releases?

I don't know why people are argueing, it is my local indie so I know what they do/don't have and can order/not order.

So yeah, I know what I am talking about.

Temprus
02-12-2008, 06:25
Origins has between 10k and 16k a year with GenCon about doubling that each year. Germany has some fairs/cons/shows that have even bigger attendence.

GW sold almost twice as much as WotC last year. If the rumors are true about Space Marines making up almost 50% of GW total sales, then SM alone almost outsold WotC. If that does not make GW the "industry leader", I would like to know who in the rpg/wargaming/collectible games related fields is? :angel: Anyone that says Hasbro or other such conglomerate, needs to be shot on sight. :rolleyes: :D

Hrafn
02-12-2008, 07:20
GW is a part of the wargaming hobby. It has a nice niche, and a good line of minis and supporting items, but it is far from the largest in the industry by a long margin. Respects,

I sense that there is a difference in how we perceive "largest". If we measure by attendence to American cons, you could be right. I wouldn't know. Judging from Danish historical cons, I most assuredly can tell you GW is far, far larger than any historical competitor. Sure, the independent cons are large here, but since they have GW games as their main attraction, it still goes to show what attendees want. Also, I need to point out that there is a major difference between cons with many companies present and the Games Days where GW is the ONLY company present. You can't just say that a single company which participates in a con with for instance 10.000 visitors is larger than one which hosts a an exclusive con with 5000 visitors.

Additionally, I really can't help disbelieving that companies such as Foundry sells anywhere near the volumes GW does. One simple observation: When I walk into a hobby retail store, it's GW which utterly dominates. Good shops have PP and Flames of War, but that's more or less it. I have physically visited most of the shops in this nation, and I have ONCE seen Foundry minis, and the shop dropped the line after some years because of lack of sales. On the Internet, the vast majority of shops I have visited clearly have GW as their main attraction.
Now, I know that personal experience is anecdotial at best, especially since there is such large geographical differences. However, my observations seem to be in trend with what I hear from most of Europe - not to mention the UK, where GW has an almost total stranglehold on the retail part of the business.

(ANTI HATE DISCLAIMER: I don't claim that the GW makes BETTER cons. I don't claim that GW is a great company which does nothing but pleases their customers. I don't claim that GW business model is perfect. I don't claim that it's good the GW dominates the market. In short: These are observations, not comments on the character of GW. ;)

Osbad
02-12-2008, 10:44
Perhaps you know of a Historicon/Origins event that is bigger, but I couldn't find any figures.

GenCon this year had 36,000 unique visitors over 4 days.

Spiel in Essen (Germany) is even bigger> The latest year I could find figures for was 2006, where there were 151,000 attendees over the 4 days!

Both are "conglomorate" conventions, not dedicated to a single company. GW attended neither as I understand it, although it used to attend Spiel until last year, and used to attend GenCon back when it was a more general gaming company and not completely focussed on Warhammer.

I am confident that GW is the largest individual tabletop hobby gaming company in the world. I am not confident that it is more than 50% of the market though. Sure its the market leader, but it is far from a monopoly looking at those figres.

Brother Loki
02-12-2008, 10:53
Spiel's attendance is a bit misleading though, since its both a player convention (like GenCon) and a trade show (like GAMA) rolled into one. Essentially that visitor base includes every toy and game sales rep and buyer for every manufacturer, distributor and large retailer in Europe (and many from further afield), as well as the normal attendees. Also, its much more focused on board games (which are much bigger in Europe than the UK and US).

Most of Gen-Con's visitors are there for CCGs or RPGs rather than miniatures. GW may not be the biggest 'games company' in the world, but they're by far the biggest 'tabletop gaming miniatures' company by a wide margin. There's no way Foundry, Privateer, Rackham or anyone else has a hundred million pound turnover.

EmperorNorton
02-12-2008, 10:55
Spiel in Essen (Germany) is even bigger> The latest year I could find figures for was 2006, where there were 151,000 attendees over the 4 days!

Both are "conglomorate" conventions, not dedicated to a single company. GW attended neither as I understand it, although it used to attend Spiel until last year, and used to attend GenCon back when it was a more general gaming company and not completely focussed on Warhammer.

Spiel had 148,000 attendees in 2007. My guess is that there were more this year, but so far the numbers haven't been published.
GW was present this year as well.
You have to consider, though, that the Spiel is huge. It stretches over eight halls, only one of which usually has exhibitors dealing in wargames and those seem to be overshadowed by those selling LARP gear in recent years.
GW traditionally has one of the largest booths in that hall, though, and I was surprised to see lots of people flocking to it although they don't even offer a discount.
The majority of visitors at the Spiel are there because of board games, though.

Hrafn
02-12-2008, 10:59
I am confident that GW is the largest individual tabletop hobby gaming company in the world. I am not confident that it is more than 50% of the market though. Sure its the market leader, but it is far from a monopoly looking at those figres.

Not that I disagree per se, but I do want to point out that it dependes on how broadly or narrowly you define "the market". If it's wargaming in general, you might very well be right. But if we define the market as Fantasy Wargaming or even by target group, I believe GW's market share will soar dramatically.

BTW, doesn't the cons you mention also include RPG's? I am asking this partly because our cons often does that as well, and if so, the number of attendees also include people interest in that, which adds multiple different markets yet again (though I admit that RPG and tabletops often share target groups).

But a monopoly? In mainland Europe and the US, No (and thank God for that ;). But I am curious as to the UK situation, as I understand that GW's dominance in the retail market here IS close to monopoly. Is the same true for cons?

Occulto
02-12-2008, 10:59
GW's created what might be called solo games. I reckon the vast majority of players using GW rules only use GW figures. I dare say there's a large proportion who only use GW paints too.

A lot of other gamers use "hybrid" systems - they'll use a ruleset by one company, then go to a handful of others for their figures. They'll even use the same army under a completely different ruleset. When they paint, they'll use different companies for undercoat, paints, washes and so on.Their spending gets spread over a whole range of smaller companies.

Even big companies like Tamiya might a lot of model kits, but they're a different business. They sell a range of different kits to a range of different people - most of them completely unsuitable for wargaming. This is either because they're too big a scale (any wargames use B-52 models with metre long wingspans?), or because their kits are too delicate to be manhandled across a gaming table.

A mate of mine is into the high end kits and they're pure display pieces. Not exactly the kind of thing you want perched precariously on a pile of rubble. :D

Most of their customers also buy kits for no reason other than to build a scale kit - like a lot of people, I built plenty of planes before I even heard of wargaming.

GW might not have the majority of gamers, but everything I've seen suggests it's still the biggest tabletop wargaming company out there.

Osbad
02-12-2008, 11:56
But I am curious as to the UK situation, as I understand that GW's dominance in the retail market here IS close to monopoly. Is the same true for cons?

GW is very, very dominant in terms of retail space. Pretty close to monopoly, but possibly less so than it was in the late '90's. There are independent retailers though. My nearest GW is in the Metro Centre a couple of miles off, then 10 miles away in the centre of Newcastle is the next, where there are 2 independent retailers, who sell Rackham, PP and others but no GW stuff. There is an indie GW retailer in North Shields 20 miles away and a retailer selling GW and FoW 25 miles away in Seaham. I suspect this sort of mix is pretty typical. The only places offering gaming space though are the GW stores and the shop in Seaham.

I suspect this is what contributes to GW's dominance - the fact that because retail space is generally so expensive in the UK, pretty much only GW can afford to use it to offer gaming space and indie retailers over here tend not to offer the facility (except maybe for card games in the case of the Travelling Man chain).

On the other hand, private, independent clubs that meet in church halls, scout huts, people's dining rooms and the like are fairly common. (There are 50 registered with GW's "Gaming Club Network" http://www.gamingclubnetwork.org/modules/clubs/, but there are many more who haven't bothered registering, such as my own).

Many of these have some form of retail connection - a member who perhaps co-ordinates trade discount with a supplier and puts in regular bulk orders for groups of members so they can all benefit, or who maybe co-ordinates a second hand stall at meetings. That sort of thing.

Many of these organise local "shows" (mini-conventions if you will) that offer retail stalls from various companies (many of whom, like for instance Hasslefree, have no other retail outlet than the web), participation games and demonstration games. Some of these are quite small (Shot and Shell in Jarrow - 4 stalls, 6 games, entrance fee 50p, literally dozens of attendees) to the massive (Salute in London - hundreds of stalls and games, thousands of attendees.) A good calendar of such events is at: http://www.newarkirregulars.org.uk/calender2008.html

Needless to say, GW games are usually present but their dominance varies depending on the tastes of the members. And at most decent shows you can usually find someone somewhere pretty much selling anything currently available, and much that is old and out of print (I was extatic to find an entire collection of mint condition ICE MERP supplements at Border Reiver this year). Some shows are pretty much historical focussed (such as Partizan), others Fantasy/Sci-fi (such as Hammerhead), but most are a fairly eclectic mix. Pretty much throughout the entire year there is a wargame show (or more than one) happening on the weekend. Even where I live in the ****-end of the country, there are at lest 5 pretty decent sized (take up a couple of basketball courts minimum) shows within an easy hour or two's drive - Border Reiver in Newcastle, Vapnartak in York, Warrior in Gateshead, Claymore in Edinburgh, Parade Ground in Stockton.

There's a great magazine - Wargames Illustrated available over the counter at most newsagents in the country which covers the UK show scene quite well. And of course there is always a forum somewhere on the internet to tell you what you need to know!

Given the prevalence of the internet and the regularity of shows I would say that GW in no way is a monopolist when it comes to sci-fi and fantasy wargaming retailing in the UK. I could have no problem having a fulfilling and complete wargaming experience never ever corssing the threshold of a GW for the rest of my life. On the other hand where it has a virtual monopoly is in prominent locations on the High Street. It is also therefore quite possible to spend your entire life ignorant of any other wargames than GW's.

Max Jet
02-12-2008, 12:23
Something is wrong with the posts as even newer ones get hidden into the middle of the thread. Strange....


And I would like to know what minis you have in your hands?

Before you resort further to strawmen, please read the quote from Horus and you might realize he said minis and not model kits.

You know, your opinion carries a bit more weight when backed up by substance instead of snarkiness....

I don't agree that GW produces the finest minis in the world, but their metals are still damn good, and IMO their plastic minis are second to none.


Before I answer to that question I'd like to know where you put the border between model kit and miniature. In my understanding everything from GW is a model kit except blisters and they only make about 20% of your army.
So you want me to name companies with better blisters or metal minis? Because if you point out... say... a plastic Crisis suit or even better a plastic space marine commander and I come up with the 1:35 Soviet Infantry of dragon and you say "No that is not a mini but a model kit" then we do not need to discuss the matter further. So I got that right we are not talking about the quality of GW products but only of their blisters?
If you include tactical squads in a box or the carnifex etc.. .then I can tell you right away what makes these kits so poor comparing to all of the other manufacturers.

I do not know what snarking means but I think this is not an insult or is it?


Wouldn't it be better if GW adopted a more open mentality towards consumer interaction first - what good would an e-mail adress do if the organization is not prepared to act on it? Also, wouldn't it be better if you interacted directly with the store which caused frustration, rather than simple centralized e-mail adress?

I can see your point, however I seriously doubt, that someone would post such matters on a forum, BEFORE discussing these things with the local manager. The fact that he came here to discuss these things makes me believe, that he told his concerns to the staff and they simply did not listen and this is the point where the mother company has to come into play, after all you are not only paying for the model kit when buying a GW box, but also for the rules and for the shop where you SHOULD be allowed to meet, paint and play.

Hrafn
02-12-2008, 12:52
Before I answer to that question I'd like to know where you put the border between model kit and miniature. In my understanding everything from GW is a model kit except blisters and they only make about 20% of your army.
So you want me to name companies with better blisters or metal minis? Because if you point out... say... a plastic Crisis suit or even better a plastic space marine commander and I come up with the 1:35 Soviet Infantry of dragon and you say "No that is not a mini but a model kit" then we do not need to discuss the matter further. So I got that right we are not talking about the quality of GW products but only of their blisters?
If you include tactical squads in a box or the carnifex etc.. .then I can tell you right away what makes these kits so poor comparing to all of the other manufacturers.

Allright, I see your point. I perceive(d) model kit as refering to vehicle kits, since that is what these discussions normally touch upon. I will readily agree that some producers of plastic vehicle kits as superior insofar as quality of cast and detailling. My main gripes are that such kits are either quite expensive (where I live at least) or quite fragile as mentioned by Osbad. EDIT: and IJW - which BTW have a handy definition of the subject IMO.

I will maintain that I have not experienced any plastic minis to the same approximate scale which can compete with the latest GW offerings, ie. Dark Elves or Vampire Counts.

So I'll take you up on your offer and ask you to explain to me what make the Carnifex so bad.. ;)


I do not know what snarking means but I think this is not an insult or is it?.

From dictionary.com:
snark⋅y   /ˈsnɑrki/ [snahr-kee]
–adjective, snark⋅i⋅er, snark⋅i⋅est. Chiefly British Slang. testy or irritable; short.
Origin: 1910–15; dial. snark to nag, find fault with (appar. identical with snark, snork to snort, snore, prob. < D, LG snorken to snore)

Since I have only used on the web, you made me look it up and now I realize that I have been using ancient English slang...:cool:

So no, it's not really an insult but definitely from the rougher part of the rhetoric toolbox - which was used because I was a little annoyed at your post. Which I now see was a part misunderstanding - oh the joys of the Intraweb...


I can see your point, however I seriously doubt, that someone would post such matters on a forum, BEFORE discussing these things with the local manager. The fact that he came here to discuss these things makes me believe, that he told his concerns to the staff and they simply did not listen and this is the point where the mother company has to come into play, .

Well, we don't really know what the OP did, so IMHO this discussion is a bit of dead end. What I tried to convey was the message that such a service would not work if the administraive and HR structure of GW is not capable of handling them.


after all you are not only paying for the model kit when buying a GW box, but also for the rules and for the shop where you SHOULD be allowed to meet, paint and play.

No, you are not. Sorry. You are paying for the box and the contents, not anything else. The rules are a seperate item, and playing in a shop is part service, part marketing device provided by GW. I would sincerely object if playing in a shop was explicitly part buying anything from GW, since I would never play in GW store unless paid to do so (and even then perhaps not). Off course you pay implicitly to GW each time you purchase something given that they have to generate the neccesary overhead somewhere, but there is a world of difference between these two scenarios...

IJW
02-12-2008, 13:07
Something is wrong with the posts as even newer ones get hidden into the middle of the thread. Strange....
The server was on the wrong time for a day or so, so the thread order got messed up when the clock was put right.


Before I answer to that question I'd like to know where you put the border between model kit and miniature. In my understanding everything from GW is a model kit except blisters and they only make about 20% of your army.
My definition (and I assume it's a fairly standard one) would be:

Sold primarily for gaming use = mini
Sold purely for display use = model kit

That makes pretty well everything that GW produces a 'mini'. There's no argument that there are model kits out there that make GW minis (and even Forgeworld minis) look like a joke in terms of detail, but they aren't designed for or suitable for gaming.


I can see your point, however I seriously doubt, that someone would post such matters on a forum, BEFORE discussing these things with the local manager.
It wouldn't be the first time that such things have happened on Warseer. ;)

P.S. GW contact details are on http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/customerservice/contactUs.jsp and now include phone, mail and email.

Ben
02-12-2008, 23:27
I admit I have voluntarily purchased LotR minis, and the other people looked at me as if I announced I wanted to start a family by kidnapping a member of the opposite sex and keeping them in my basement.

There are a lot of good things about LOTR, notably the bubble that let GW purchase their new plastics technology, but I think part of the reason for the dislike is the swarms of kids it brought into the store and the space they took up. A lot of older vets used to go to GW to escape screaming kids while at the same time playing with toy soldiers.

For those wondering about the UK, the independant sector here was gutted in the 90s by the aggressive expansion of GW at the expense of indy retailers who previously stocked their product. This has allowed GW to market their game in a more child friendly environment while preventing possibly contamination with non-GW products (PP, confrontation, historicals etc).

I do play GW games, and plan on forcing some poor bastards to play LOTR when War of the Ring comes out (particularly if it gives more of a tactical experience than current LOTR), but I know GW has some deep seated problems, and the business model focussing on kids who will get the new thing for a while then quit and probably ebay it is one. Also having their own stores be the most expensive place to buy models, and fairly limited in terms of range, is another.

However I'm sure GW will survive an economic downturn that has broken most High St banks, MFI and Woolworths in the first few months through the cunning Kids! plan.

Volt
03-12-2008, 03:56
You try maintaining, counting and looking after over 10,000 compoents. Yes it a little annoying but they are slowing re-introducing stuff - just in a better control manner. What other companies keeps such an extensive back cataolgue

Whilst that is a good point, I find it hard to believe that that is the reason GW took when it came to shutting down the old bits system. If that was the case, why did the old bits system last so long? I can think of one thing though that probably helped GW make the decision: elminate bits, save money.

As for another example, don't most car companies have large catalogues of parts so if you need to order that one specific part you can? If not, sorry for using that example, but I seem to have heard instances of that in the car industry.

plantagenet
03-12-2008, 12:29
To be honest the car analogy is the best one you could have used.

In the past car companies used to maintain huge amounts of parts however the Japanese car manufacteurs showed the just in time deéivery system meant that costs could be saved by not havign huge stock piles of parts sitting around. This is similar to what I think you are seeing at GW rather than having huge amounts of money tied up in stock on the basis that someone may want it is better to only maintain those goods that will sell. Of course the ideal would be a machine that can produce all the bits they need from a catalogue whenever they need it but I think we are a long way of having a tecnology like that.

yoshimo
03-12-2008, 13:15
Re: Could GW do any more to alienate veterans?
Ban players who are over the age of 14 or don't have an inexhaustable supply of their parent's money?

Von Bakk
03-12-2008, 13:26
RE: The thread title, I am slowly coming back to the world of GW after a years of fluctuating back and too. Im a veteran of the rogue trader days (although I didnt play it much, spent more time collecting minis and painting - 2nd edition was where I really started to play) and to be quite honest I find the attitude of GW and its (mostly) moronic employees dispicable. The whole attitude and ethos seems to have changed, just read an old citadel journal to get an idea, christ there used to be a letters page in there where people criticised GW in their own publications! Can you imagine this now! You try and criticise GW within one of their stores and the gestapo appear from nowhere.

Example: I was in a store in the north east of england the other day where I spent a while having a good chat with the chap running the store and also 70 pounds on various tzeentch daemons and the warhammer armies book, said chap then tries to flog me what was basically nothing more than a bag for the grand total of 35 pounds, when Id finished laughing he tried to justify this by claiming its an expensive hobby and PS3's cost over 300 pounds(???) - I pointed out it was made in china (the bag) and probably cost somewhere in the region of a handfull of rice to manufacture. He preceded to cut me off and wandered over to some unsuspecting mother and child to push his wares. Now im not bothered what crap GW want to sell but it feels like a completly different world to the one I entered back in 1990(ish). And not in a good way. It now feels like walking into the carphone warehouse and having to dodge flash asian delboy characters (in a geeky GW way of course) desperate to flog you ANYTHING rather than the atmospheric treasure trove of goodies I was accustomed to back in the halcyion days, sigh...........

Suffice to say it was a bit of a shock to me as Ive not been into a store in many a year!

x-esiv-4c
03-12-2008, 15:52
Excellent post Von Bakk.

I would like to add to it.
I too have been with 40k since the RT days. Back when a certain amount of imagination was required to make the most out of the gaming experience ( grav-tank made from a deoderant bottle and zoid bits...). This is when the "vets" got into the game and over the years we have seen it evolve into something that we may not really like. This is the nature of business however, GW is a business and making money is their game. The issue comes about as how they make their money, at times the thin veil hiding the act of pushing wares becomes totally transparent when a GW staff members tells a kids mom that "Warhammer is like Yug-hi-yo in space" (not sure how to spell it).

Vets might not like that. Hell, anyone who enjoys this hobby won't.

Vets often feel alienated when the people working at the local GW has only been in the hobby for a year and isn't familiar with the setting and with an influx of kids getting into the hobby, GWs have to caiter to them.

Jedi152
03-12-2008, 16:16
The only time i ever feel alienated is when staff members try to tell me what boxed sets i could get if i'm looking for a specific model or tell me where stuff is in a store.

And even then i'm not that upset. How is the staffer supposed to know i've been in the hobby since he was at school?

But i can't stand people who can't do their job. Yu-gi-oh in space? If i was there i'd have been tempted to interject. At least try to sell the hobby to them.

It's like students at my work (university). They are chosen and paid to show prospective students around. It's their job to sell the university and keep plenty of new students (and so the university's income) coming in - and then they show kids and parents around our labs with "this is a lab ... err ... i don't know what happens in here".

Von Bakk
04-12-2008, 12:55
[QUOTE=Jedi152;3114541]The only time i ever feel alienated is when staff members try to tell me what boxed sets i could get if i'm looking for a specific model or tell me where stuff is in a store.

And even then i'm not that upset. How is the staffer supposed to know i've been in the hobby since he was at school?
QUOTE]

The most annoying part of entering a GW store!

Seriously though I wouldnt say it was a feeling of being alienated that bothered me, more the slightly sinister 'thought police' type of vibe I was getting, like a "how dare you question the mighty GW" attitude.

Another example Ive got happened in the same store. As previously stated im slowly coming back to the hobby and have been digging out all my old stuff from my mums attic, I stumbled upon the 2nd edition rulebook, had a flick through and thought "why not?". Me and a couple of mates had a go and found it to be (obviously in our humble opinions) a far more enjoyable alternative to a combat patrol mission. When relaying this to the GW chap instore he became instantly defensive, there were a few young kids knocking about and when they overheard what I was saying became really interested. When I told these wee fellas they could probably pick a copy of the rules up on ebay reasonably cheap, Mr GW starts shouting me down talking about how flawed the system was and how the new rules are much better and these kids shouldnt waste there time endulging in such activities. I thought I was going to get banned from entering the premises for attempting to brainwash the kids, THIS is what I find so distressing about the modern day GW, the overly aggresive attitude to anything non-GW/old GW and the feeling that all employees of the company have to adopt this attitude, for christ sake we are talking about a game and a hobby not stalinist russia! Ive also found out they have closed their forums, no doubt people like me were guility of discussing other game systems or some equally henious crime!

Apologies for the excessively long, rambling post and any grammatical errors but this old codger (29!) feels a responsibility to do anything he can to try and ween GW back to what it used to be - Incredible fun!!:D:D:D

IJW
04-12-2008, 13:21
When I told these wee fellas they could probably pick a copy of the rules up on ebay reasonably cheap, Mr GW starts shouting me down talking about how flawed the system was and how the new rules are much better and these kids shouldnt waste there time endulging in such activities.
Now look at this from the point of view of the staff - you went into their store, and started telling their customers how they could go somewhere else and buy something different/cheaper. How would you react?


THIS is what I find so distressing about the modern day GW, the overly aggresive attitude to anything non-GW/old GW
What's 'modern day' about this? It's an attitude that came in in the early Nineties when GW got told 'expand or die' by the accountants.


we are talking about a game and a hobby not stalinist russia! Ive also found out they have closed their forums, no doubt people like me were guility of discussing other game systems or some equally henious crime!
The situation you described had nothing to do with hobbies or games - it was to do with going into a retail shop and telling their customers to buy elsewhere. And the forums weren't full of people discussing other games systems, they were full of insults and flaming.


Apologies for the excessively long, rambling post and any grammatical errors but this old codger (29!) feels a responsibility to do anything he can to try and ween GW back to what it used to be - Incredible fun!!:D:D:D
When exactly was this? The early days of 2nd ed. 40k and 4th ed. Warhammer, when gamers in GW stores weren't allowed to field OOP models, weren't allowed to refer to Warhammer as Warhammer Fantasy Battle or infer that there had been previous editions, all models had to be painted before they could be used at all - even base edges had to be in the regulation Goblin Green.

There have been some better periods since then, but the good old days were not as rosy as people make out. :(

Von Bakk
04-12-2008, 18:03
Now look at this from the point of view of the staff - you went into their store, and started telling their customers how they could go somewhere else and buy something different/cheaper. How would you react?

Thats not really what I was doing though is it, I was discussing 40k and suggested a fun alternative to a combat patrol game or a 40k/40mins scenario is to play with the second edition rules. I wasnt advocating binning 5th edition and never purchasing another minature and as the kids I was talking to already had the 5th edition rulebook (or at least one of them must have) I fail to see what kind of negative impact this would have on GW's business strategy. The fact I even have to defend myself for mentioning a previous oop edition of their own gaming system within the confines of a store pretty much proves my point (at least to me anyway). I must point out I was clutching two baneblades I just spent £120 on at the time of the discussion so it seems I suffered no negative effects (from GW's perspective) from playing an out of date game:p


What's 'modern day' about this? It's an attitude that came in in the early Nineties when GW got told 'expand or die' by the accountants.

Fair enough, I havent been in a store in years (I relied exclusively on mail order for the last few years of my previous GW stint) I just remember hanging round my local store having long discussions about star wars roleplaying and ad&d with the staff and not feeling like I was breaking some unwritten rule. This was around 1995/6 just after Id left school.......:cries:



The situation you described had nothing to do with hobbies or games - it was to do with going into a retail shop and telling their customers to buy elsewhere. And the forums weren't full of people discussing other games systems, they were full of insults and flaming.

Wow it appears talking about 40k has nothing to do with hobbies or games - best remember that. Also the highlighted section appears to be a very selective way of reading my original post - you dont happen to work for GW do you?

I must concede to your point on the forums, I never frequented them or any others (im new here) and that blase comment was based on hearsay so apologies to anyone offended by it.




When exactly was this? The early days of 2nd ed. 40k and 4th ed. Warhammer, when gamers in GW stores weren't allowed to field OOP models, weren't allowed to refer to Warhammer as Warhammer Fantasy Battle or infer that there had been previous editions, all models had to be painted before they could be used at all - even base edges had to be in the regulation Goblin Green.

Again I must concede, I didnt really play games in store - just hung out and talked gaming. And purchased massive amounts of minatures.


Just to clear things up though, im not anti GW or anything, I own every game theve produced since 2nd edition 40k, 15000 points of chaos, 5000pts of orks, quite alot of tau and MANY MANY more. The vast majority of which is unpainted :D I just thought this was an ideal thread to talk about some of my observations which may possibly have been made with the old rose tinted specs!

ChaosShuriken
04-12-2008, 18:06
GW need to bring back Necromunda. Gamers of all ages loved it from old veterans to kids who could only afford a small gang. It was awesome.

x-esiv-4c
04-12-2008, 18:13
ChaosS, that was the beauty of Necromunda though. All you needed was a gang of 7-8 minis and you were all set. The games weren't too long and the range of rules really added to the game (remember sponge moss?).

Dammit, now I have to break out my old Necromunda gang again....

Von Bakk
04-12-2008, 18:16
GW need to bring back Necromunda. Gamers of all ages loved it from old veterans to kids who could only afford a small gang. It was awesome.

I believe you can still get it, even better its all the original rulebooks and outlanders complied into one volume (dont quote me on this though!) :D Make your own buildings though :(

Von Bakk
04-12-2008, 18:18
ChaosS, that was the beauty of Necromunda though. All you needed was a gang of 7-8 minis and you were all set. The games weren't too long and the range of rules really added to the game (remember sponge moss?).

Dammit, now I have to break out my old Necromunda gang again....

I did recently although all my terrain seems to have vanished so we went old school and used books and blankets! Great fun was had by all.

ThousandPlateaus
04-12-2008, 18:18
The games weren't too long and the range of rules really added to the game (remember sponge moss?).


Hah! Not strictly true - in my last campaign, we played one game that managed to last around 9 hours... it was pretty intense.

And the excellent sponge moss - watch out for the bouncing ogryn!

Shadowphrakt
04-12-2008, 20:38
2) Shunning of specialist games. Fair enough if you wan't to get rid but don't be disengenous GW just get rid and don't wheel out Jervis to pretend you give a ****.

Wow, we have loads of Specialist Games players around - especially Blood bowl - but more and more Mordheim and Necromunda players a appearing too/ My LGS still stocks some stuff - the rule books and the like - and asks people if they want anything ordered - because of the free store delivery. So to me it seems as if they do. And we are allowwed to play it on club nights aswell. Not just veterans - kids too.


3) Price rises based on "metal and oil prices" (or words to that effect). Don't suppose we will see the price of models lower now that they have halved or more (especially for blood knights and specialist miniatures - Leman Russ company in epic for £30. Whatever:mad:
Wow, becasue alot of businesses have been raising there prices becasue of this, they really have. Plus you also have the fact os the current financial crisis. This has really affected businesses - we've had to change our suppliers many times because of them going bust. I thinnk we've pulled 1 dish from our menu.


4) Ending of bits - enough said

Hmm, yes, bits back would be nice, but you have to remember that it was costing GW far too much to run, and this has been discussed on many, many other threads, so lets jsut drop this point of arguement becasue GW did what was best, in the long and short term.


5) Inability to actually buy most of the miniatures in store. I wonder how much custom they have lost already.

While I agree with this for part - my LGS still has about every model from every race in 40K + fantasy - LoTR tend to sell out fast. Except the really obtuse ones - special characters and the like - they tend not to stock some of them.


6) Complete cluelessness as to what they are aiming at

They're a business. Their aim is profit maximisation. And possibly provision of a service. The provision of a friendly atmosphere and a great game :)



This I agree with 100%.
Kill LOTR and get a better selection of 40K/Fantasy in store.

Hmmm...yes, that'd be effective - kill off a range that makes more profit than fantasy. Though I agree with your point about the bitz service - you're right. As is discussed in other threads.

IJW
04-12-2008, 20:41
Thats not really what I was doing though is it
Sounds like I was reading too much into "When I told these wee fellas they could probably pick a copy of the rules up on ebay reasonably cheap". Apologies if I took that the wrong way, but it can be hard to get enough context from a forum post. My experience is that shop staff (any shop, not just GW) react badly when you suggest alternative places to buy products in their niche, especially if it's likely to be cheaper. EDIT - that it was an old GW edition was irrelevant - it's still coming out of the same money those people would have for buying gaming stuff in the GW store, to the shop staff.

To overstate it, it's rather like going into M&S and saying to customers "You know, you could pick up a second-hand sweater at the charity shop.". As far as GW stores are concerned, eBay is a direct competitor for their sales, and mentioning it when there are other customers around doesn't go down well. :(


Wow it appears talking about 40k has nothing to do with hobbies or games - best remember that.
Again, I was picking up (too much) on the eBay thing. Sorry.


Also the highlighted section appears to be a very selective way of reading my original post - you dont happen to work for GW do you?
Not for seventeen years, no. ;)

theHandofGork
04-12-2008, 22:19
Sounds like I was reading too much into "When I told these wee fellas they could probably pick a copy of the rules up on ebay reasonably cheap". Apologies if I took that the wrong way, but it can be hard to get enough context from a forum post. My experience is that shop staff (any shop, not just GW) react badly when you suggest alternative places to buy products in their niche, especially if it's likely to be cheaper.

I once saw a GW staffer tell a newer player how almost all ebay sales were recasts, with very poor quality and full of dangerous lead.

I don't mind GW staff trying to cut talk about a competitor, but I don't like lying.

During a conversation about my painting with a staffer (which was going pleasantly) when I mentioned, very briefly, my use of other brands of paint- the conversation turned into a diatribe about how other brands were inferior to GW. If I'm discussing a "hobby" I expect to be able to be honest, rather than having to avoid seemingly innocuous questions like, "Hey what color did you use on that mini?"

Ben
04-12-2008, 22:58
They could start beheading veterans and post the video of it on the internet?

Not that I expect that to happen, but some blue shirts get a little full on.

IJW
05-12-2008, 10:16
I once saw a GW staffer tell a newer player how almost all ebay sales were recasts, with very poor quality and full of dangerous lead.
Well, when you get into the older models (pre-1995?) then, oddly enough, the lead alloy that the models were cast from does contain lots of dangerous lead*...

The recasts thing is just blatant exaggeration, though.

*The GW factory staff had to have regular blood tests because they were working with lead.

Sleazy
05-12-2008, 12:31
Von Bakk, which NE Enlgans store was it? I can quite imagine certain individuals reacting like that ( one in particular who believes everything GW tell him and "lives" his job a little too enthusiastically).

Other than that though the local GWs tend to have a good bunch and the 4 managers I know of in the area (Newcastle, Metro, Sunderland, Darlington) are decent guys.

Helveticus
05-12-2008, 13:37
Exactly.

TBH i see it much the same was as GW does. You're veterans, you should be able to look after yourself by now. You probably have several armies and a gaming group to play with, so why do you need GW?

I'm upset that specialist games have got the shove off, but that's because i still want stuff from the ranges. Once i have a few gangs/teams and plenty of regular opponents, i'm set.

Well I don't have any problem getting a game in a GW store- as long as someone shows up to play. Opponents have been slim in there lately 40K wise.

I can look after myself in the store. I have several armies in each 40K, and Fantasy, as well as a couple teams. Outside of that, my gaming group is small, and only meets on tuesdays. I like to play more often than once a week, so off to the GW I go. Not everyone who goes to a FLGS, even a GW one, is a newb. Not every Vet has the space, the time, or the network to completely avoid game shops for opponents.

neXus6
05-12-2008, 13:52
What I nice thread, always good for a chuckle.

I agree with quite a lot of the points people have made, it's a shame there really are next to no non-GW wargames clubs in my area and setting one up isn't really an option for me at the moment. Over the last few years I've only played a handful of games because I very rarely feel it is worth putting up with the environment in a GW store.

Also I love it when people bring up Privateer Press as an excuse for "GW prices are acceptable just look at the competition"...Privateer Press have enacted a VERY GW like aproach to how they sell things in my opinion, I am not much of a PP fan it is true.

When you compare GW and PP to other manufacturers of 28mm games, particularly the producers of historical figures you can quite obviously see that those 2 companies are the exeptions when it comes to rather high prices. :rolleyes:

:p

Brother Loki
05-12-2008, 15:01
As well as GW and PP, I think you need to include Rackham and Corvus Belli and pretty much every other minis company that tries to produce a professional looking high quality product. I don't really think you can compare them to people like Peter Pig whose idea of presentation is a plastic bag with a photocopied label. GW and the other big firms simply produce higher quality - You simply cannot compare a GW or PP book to a Wargames Research Group one. About the only historicals company that comes close is Battlefront (Flames of War) who have also adopted a business model very similar to Privateer and GW (obviously without GW's chain of stores). These firms make products which can be marketed and merchandised beyond the hardcore wargaming market - they compete with computer and console games on a pretty even playing field.

Verm1s
05-12-2008, 15:41
Anyone who is so woefully ignorant of the benefit that LotR brought to the table needs to get off their lazy, bigoted arses

Someone once called me a bigot because I told them I didn't like anime. I think this is about the same level of autistic overreaction.

About indies - to quote an indy owner I know: GW wants him to buy stuff from them, but they don't want anyone to buy from him...

theHandofGork
05-12-2008, 16:49
Well, when you get into the older models (pre-1995?) then, oddly enough, the lead alloy that the models were cast from does contain lots of dangerous lead*...

The recasts thing is just blatant exaggeration, though.

*The GW factory staff had to have regular blood tests because they were working with lead.

Oh no argument on that, just that the recasts were dangerous and prolific.

Osbad
05-12-2008, 17:28
Someone once called me a bigot because I told them I didn't like anime. I think this is about the same level of autistic overreaction.


No, it is not. I never mentioned people's prefence for game aesthetics and mechanics. Each to their own.

I referred to the impact of LotR as a product line on GW as a business and the lack of fact-checking by posters prior to their posting in reference to this.

If the cap fits though...

Finnigan2004
06-12-2008, 15:26
I have to say that it might be time for some of the North American stores to relegate Lord of the Rings to specialist game status. I say this, even though I loved the Lord of the Rings movies, love the game books (I have most of them), and love the models (again have many of them). I say it because I play warhammer fantasy in many locales in British Columbia (I've probably been to half of the retailers listed in White Dwarf in the last two years), and I have not seen anyone playing LOTR or found another person with models who would like to play.

That said, I wish there were people to play against, and I hope that if there is a new Hobbit movie that it will lead to people picking up the system and playing. Unfortunately, I just don't hold out much hope that this will be the case.

yabbadabba
06-12-2008, 19:54
1) Turned away from playing a game with a mate in a pretty much empty GW store. Apparently people who aren't beginners can sometimes play after the other games on a saturday and not at all on a sunday. In one hour in store (on a sunday) no one else turned up with armies at all, but despite onlookers me and my mate couldn't play (althought the assistant let us set up for 10 minutes before telling us). When i first started i found the opportunity to watch veterans with painted large armies pretty inspiring. Apparently GW prefer 10 year olds with unpainted 750 point forces. n.b. I didn't know about their ridiculous policy before hand so wasn't just being belligerent.

All I can gather from this is that you have turned up uannounced at a business premises expecting it to allow you to do what you want to do. I have been going to GW stores since the 80's and it has been a long time since they didn't have structured gaming times. The shop is a business premiss and needs to focus on those activities which increase revenue and profit. Also, being in a store with a large number of sweaty older gamers on the number one shopping day just isn't pleasant or cash inducing.
Also I have to say that your attitude can be equated to buying a gun for hunting, and then complaining that you can't hunt in the shop. GW stores are not a baby sitting service or a clubhouse - it's a shop and needs to operate as such.


2) Shunning of specialist games. Fair enough if you wan't to get rid but don't be disengenous GW just get rid and don't wheel out Jervis to pretend you give a ****.

Can't see your problem here either. There are plenty of SG players here who are happy with any kind of promotion of SG's just to keep them in the public eye in the hope of them getting a reprieve, despite Specialist games being not that profitable or sustainable for GW. We all want SG's back and in full swing. In the current global financial climate, Hell will become a ski resort first.


3) Price rises based on "metal and oil prices" (or words to that effect). Don't suppose we will see the price of models lower now that they have halved or more (especially for blood knights and specialist miniatures - Leman Russ company in epic for £30. Whatever:mad:

All companies put their prices up. GW are far more honest about it than many. At leats they tell you when the prices are going up and on what products.


4) Ending of bits - enough said

You know, I do seriously mourn the loss of the bitz service. BUT I am also impressed with the amount of stuff you now get on the plastic spures. The fact that you can now build viable armies just from plastic is also a major step forward for me. Everyone from GW I have spoken to have said exactly the same thing - the service was not cost effect any more for GW.


5) Inability to actually buy most of the miniatures in store. I wonder how much custom they have lost already.

Do you have the vaguest idea of the investment in capital maintaining GW's product range in stores is? Or how much potential capital is tied up in slow or non-moving blisters in Indie stores, preventing them from re-ordering from GW? Good project management means that I can get the same product from GW when I need it. They might lose a little bit of money on impromptu buys but no where near as much cash as is needed to actually create that stock holding in the first place. What GW are doing is good range management, an essential for any modern retailer.


6) Complete cluelessness as to what they are aiming at

Same can be applied to you my friend. What you are really saying is "GW is not appealing to me as much as it used to." You are blaming them for your own lack of creativity/resourcefulness/places to play. GW the hobby and GW the business are entirely separate and equating the two is nonsense. As a business GW have to do what it needs to do to survive and grow. As a hobby, you need to evaluate what you need to get the best out of it. If that means going somewhere else because the GW creche has closed down, then so be it.

GW have always had the same attitude towards Vets - they can look after themselves. They have switched their marketing focus (something many here have fallen for) from doing what they want to do as hobbyists (which appeals to Vets more), to doing what they need to do to grow as a business (appealing to newbies more). So it appears that GW don't want Vets. Even in the old WD's the "advanced" articles were often written in a "why don't you go and do your own" way rather than a "do this" way. A lot of "Vets" on this site have double standards, shouting that they can buy/do something cheaper/better than GW, and yet demanding that GW still waits on them hand and foot!

I have three things which absolutely define why GW cannot rely on Vets as a primary marketing focus. SG's, Journal, Fanatic.

lanrak
06-12-2008, 21:18
Hi all.
I never expect GW to pander to the whims of everyone.
But as GW depend on word of mouth to grow thier buisness,totaly ignoring the more experianced gamers seems a bit self defeating.
Most older gamers jipped by GW over so many issues,just turn away from GW .
And point new gamers toward companies that actualy care about the game play.
(The GW dev teams may care about the game play , but they do not call the shots anymore.)

TTFN
Lanrak.

yabbadabba
06-12-2008, 22:14
Hi all.
But as GW depend on word of mouth to grow thier buisness,totaly ignoring the more experianced gamers seems a bit self defeating.
Most older gamers jipped by GW over so many issues,just turn away from GW .
And point new gamers toward companies that actualy care about the game play.

In part you are right, GW do rely on word of mouth. But not of Vets anymore for precisely the action (not reason) you have quoted. Vets, as a rule, have fingers in a few pies, are uncontrollable and will do their own thing.

GW relies on the word of mouth of 12-16 year olds and their parents to grow the business. To an extent these are more controllable than Vets, do not know the whole panoply of wargames and can't be bothered to shop around (generalisations). And never underestimate the spending power of a whingeing kid.

Goose
07-12-2008, 00:01
To some of those points. Don't play at GWs if possible.

Am I the only one that hates going into a GW store? I get treated like an idiot and you always get harassed by the workers to buy something.

The truth is, nothing an employee says will ever get me to buy anything more then what I was set out to buy or am thinking of doing it. I don't give a damn what they think of anything, whether it be cool or effective. GW stores show the true nature of our world. We live in a world where everyone is just out to madly make as much money as possible.

It all seems so fake, like the fun just exists to get me to buy things. That is the reality with so many products, but it shows through in GW so much.

SamVimes
07-12-2008, 04:45
It all seems so fake, like the fun just exists to get me to buy things. That is the reality with so many products, but it shows through in GW so much.

You'd probably feel different after spending 8 hours alone with no customers and only be at $149 for the week.

Hrafn
07-12-2008, 13:36
As well as GW and PP, I think you need to include Rackham and Corvus Belli and pretty much every other minis company that tries to produce a professional looking high quality product. I don't really think you can compare them to people like Peter Pig whose idea of presentation is a plastic bag with a photocopied label. GW and the other big firms simply produce higher quality - You simply cannot compare a GW or PP book to a Wargames Research Group one. About the only historicals company that comes close is Battlefront (Flames of War) who have also adopted a business model very similar to Privateer and GW (obviously without GW's chain of stores). These firms make products which can be marketed and merchandised beyond the hardcore wargaming market - they compete with computer and console games on a pretty even playing field.

Thank you :) My thoughts exactly.

I only want to add that the prices of the companies you mention are not lower than GW - for PP and Flames of War, it's the exact opposite.

I am not a fan of PP per se, but I play their games and enjoy their many cool minis thoroughly. Despite the insane price tag! I am not emotionally attached to my minis, and if I can't spare the money, I will just spare them. My world won't come crashing down and I will spend hours each day ranting and whining on how I am entitled to a luxury hobby and how the suppliers of it are teh evul for ruining my life....:rolleyes:

BUT I get severely annoyed when people bring up the subject of price and then proceeds down either the GW sux (that would be Warseer) or the PP FTW (The PP boards) route without any hint of objective thought.

@Osbad - thanks for the info :) I don't really have a any input apart from what has already been said, but thanks anyway.

Back on topic:
In the end, GW could do a lot to facilitate Vets, but unfortunatly, the way GW is structured these days, it would be suicide for business. The combination of retail chain and PLC make it nigh impossible, since these constraints run counter-productive to the structure needed to support an innovative games design studio. The prime product of these two types of business are simply too different. The problem for Vets IMHO is that we don't need shops nor the service provided by them, which yet again make it unprofitable to fit the retail part of GW to suit vets. Which of course start a never-endind spiral where the retail nature of the GW structure influences on the R&D, marketing and management, which yet again influences the retail link and so on and on....

Not that I agree with that strategyfrom a business POV, as it is rather short-sighted. GW's product is loosing appeal in their favoured target group, and that is going to be much more problematic in the long run than realized now. But that is the joy of being a PLC - who needs to think about long term problems when shareholders profit in the short term :rolleyes:

Hellebore
07-12-2008, 13:42
Hmm, alienating veterans more?

Maybe if they made their armies 3x the size out of safe-tee foam with a sign saying "for ages 3+"?

Although playing with a foam bolter in the bath can be fun no matter your age...:angel:

Hellebore

ehlijen
08-12-2008, 09:16
The perfect way to alienate customers? Miniatures that decay into dust after 3 months of use :p (though mind you, their superglue does fall into that category...)

Occulto
08-12-2008, 23:26
Am I the only one that hates going into a GW store? I get treated like an idiot and you always get harassed by the workers to buy something.

I walked into GW on Saturday to be greeted by name, asked what I was after (undercoat), got what I wanted and walked out in less than a couple of minutes.

I prefer going to GW over just about any other store for that reason. Going shopping for clothing on the other hand? Now that's grounds for harrassment. :p

studderigdave
09-12-2008, 00:41
i just avoid GW stores. thankfully the closest one to me is in philly i think, more then an hour away. our LGS is awesome. last time i went to an actual GW was in vorhees NJ to pick up the harry the hammer model. i wasnt looking to buying ANYTHING except for that model, at the time i was building my epic guard army, and my bloodbowl orc team. so i walked in and was instanylu hounded by 2 employees. the one quickly left me alone, the other was a lil more persistenat.

GW: so, what do you play?
ME: um, game systems, 40k, fantasy and alot of specialist games.
GW: what armies for 40k do you play?
ME: Orks, Deathguard and Tyranids
GW: well did you see they just released..........oh did you see we have a sale on.......your ork.chaos/nid army isnt complete without ..............
ME: yeah im pretty solid on models, i just came for the harry the hammer
GW: what are you working on right now?
ME: Epic Imerpial Guard, have any warlord titans?
GW: no, we dont support specialist games in the store
ME: wow, that makes sense (sarcasm)

then he wanders off to bother my friends who run him through the same discussion.

i know what to expect when i go toa GW, i havent played a game in an actual GW in years. i played in the bunker in phily years ago, i got harassed becuase none of my ork vehicles were actual GW models.

GW cane stay away, far away. indy retailers are just better in my experience.

darkace77450
09-12-2008, 01:23
i know what to expect when i go toa GW, i havent played a game in an actual GW in years. i played in the bunker in phily years ago, i got harassed becuase none of my ork vehicles were actual GW models.


I side with GW on this issue. GW provides a place for veterans to play. This is as much a marketing ploy as it is a reward to loyal customers. They provide you a place to play because your fully painted ork army looks cool to people who have never seen the hobby before. You having fun in a game of 40k means they can tell that new customer they would have just as much fun. It is a way for GW to advertise the hobby in its fullest aspect to new/potential customers. That is why they don't want another company's figures on their tables.

Crazy Harborc
09-12-2008, 01:48
I was/I am always careful to only use GW minies at official GW events and when gaming in a GW company store.

That said.......I do not care who uses what outside of GW's company owned stores. All that matters is that an opponent's army has identifiable minies used in place of GW's versions.

ehlijen
09-12-2008, 02:41
On the gaming stores: Once you've been to any gaming events they happen to run and resist their sales pitches a couple of times, you will be out of the 'potential money giver'-zone and into the 'this guy obviously likes GW, let's leave him alone and he'll buy stuff automatically'-zone.

It's a store, they are meant to sell stuff. But once you get to know the people who work there and they get to know you and your collection as you use it, they will back off realising that you buy the GW stuff you want even if they don't pitch it. And then the games nights are just fun*.

*always depending on opponents, but that's the case no matter where you play.

studderigdave
09-12-2008, 07:09
I side with GW on this issue. GW provides a place for veterans to play. This is as much a marketing ploy as it is a reward to loyal customers. They provide you a place to play because your fully painted ork army looks cool to people who have never seen the hobby before. You having fun in a game of 40k means they can tell that new customer they would have just as much fun. It is a way for GW to advertise the hobby in its fullest aspect to new/potential customers. That is why they don't want another company's figures on their tables.

the thing was, my vehicles weren't from ANY other game company, they were pure styrene, rods and cardboard. i was quite young at the time, but i did have a few GW bitz on them, but they were 99 percent just stuff you find around the house, you know straws for guns, toilet paper deathrollas.

SamVimes
09-12-2008, 07:24
Still, you were using their gaming space that they have to pay rent for, and that takes up some valuable floor space. You can't get too mad at them when they want to promote their product in their stores.

reds8n
09-12-2008, 08:39
GW: well did you see they just released..........oh did you see we have a sale on.......


.... err.. what ? :eek:

x-esiv-4c
09-12-2008, 13:16
Red, didn't you know about the GW sales? All you have to do is ask a GW employee.
last one was buy 1 get 1 full price.

Jedi152
09-12-2008, 13:35
No Games Workshop employee has been able to say that for a good 10 years.

reds8n
09-12-2008, 14:04
Except the Black Library ones eh ? ;) :p

In defense of GW :

My local store is pretty cool with regards to veterans. It is a small space so table usage is always a bit of problem, but they're very helpful with regards to bitz from the store bitz boxes, a cup of tchar if you so fancy or even just shooting the breeze with regards to current/forthcoming releases.

Sure, there's the odd person they've turned down or prevented from playing system "X", but 99% of the time as said person has been or is a ^&*( to them, other customers or just in general. Frankly considering the abuse they have to put up with from customers moaning at them over the loss of bitz/prices/broken lists/this months gripe, none of which is anything to do with them at all, I'm considering putting them forth for canonisation.

I don't know any other store or chain where it is seemingly acceptable for people to go in there, hang about and moan about how crappy release X is, lament the passing of old or obsolete systems, not spend any money and then act surprised when these busy people aren't entirely polite to them all the time. Try going into HMV or similar and drone on at one of the assistants about how much better video tapes were or how Oasis now suck compared to back in 1999 and see how long it is until security have you removed.

RobC
09-12-2008, 15:03
Try going into HMV or similar and drone on at one of the assistants about how much better video tapes were or how Oasis now suck compared to back in 1999 and see how long it is until security have you removed.We used to have a bloke who came into our (big, corporate, monolithic) book shop back in the day, who without fail collared one of the staff and told us how the shop was wonderful, but that we were far too overpriced. He then proceeded to tell us about a shop called Goodies/Goody's, that apparently did the same thing, many years before. It went under.

Point is, he kept coming back, and buying things, and his patter rarely changed. Not that I'm comparing him to the people you get in your typical GW store - aside from his repetitiveness he was polite, sincere and didn't have hygiene problems. And he didn't just hang around in the store, unlike a certain bunch of teens who basically used the place as a home from home, judging from the way they dumped our stock on the floor after flicking through it. There are some days I'm glad I'm no longer in retail ;)

ThousandPlateaus
09-12-2008, 17:49
We used to have a bloke who came into our (big, corporate, monolithic) book shop back in the day, who without fail collared one of the staff and told us how the shop was wonderful, but that we were far too overpriced. He then proceeded to tell us about a shop called Goodies/Goody's, that apparently did the same thing, many years before. It went under.

There are some days I'm glad I'm no longer in retail ;)

I pray to the God-Emperor that I never have to work in retail again...
Weirdly, I think I've met that guy, though, RobC - that's if the store was in central London - if so, he's still about.

Billpete002
09-12-2008, 19:17
I always get hassled by the red shirts to buy something else - I'll say nah I'll wait for the new book - then they interject with the scripted line of "well you can always buy another army in the mean time!"

I really hate that - and it happens every time I go. I like the guys there and I like the red shirts (as people), but seriously if I've been to the store a bunch of times and you know me, and I've given the same answer every time since I've been there you'd think they would catch the hint of "oh hey maybe this guy really is waiting for the next codex to buy an army"... I suppose I'm too nice a guy to get upset publicly at em' also it would make me seem like a two year old (despite playing with small toy figures...) :D

SamVimes
09-12-2008, 22:11
I always get hassled by the red shirts to buy something else - I'll say nah I'll wait for the new book - then they interject with the scripted line of "well you can always buy another army in the mean time!"

I really hate that - and it happens every time I go. I like the guys there and I like the red shirts (as people), but seriously if I've been to the store a bunch of times and you know me, and I've given the same answer every time since I've been there you'd think they would catch the hint of "oh hey maybe this guy really is waiting for the next codex to buy an army"... I suppose I'm too nice a guy to get upset publicly at em' also it would make me seem like a two year old (despite playing with small toy figures...) :D

Erm, because they kinda have to? They do have a job to do, and that job is to get gw product out the door. And sometimes near the end of the month things can start to get desperate.

Commisarlestat
09-12-2008, 22:32
Im with Sam on this one. I have just got a part time job at GW. One which I was offered because I was a vet (well there was interviews etc but finding out about the job). Basically it's retail. They want people in the hobby and they want people to have fun but at times such as christmas sales must be made.

The typical convo scripted above is a good example of what you are supposed to do and TBH I'm fine with that ask what they collect what they are there for if they need help and suggest new things that they perhaps havnt heard of (this last one is important especially as so many vets dont get WD anymore).

Yes sometimes it is to get more money but in a roundabout way. For example someone picks up a squad box of cadians then goes ahh I need heavy weapons and grabs box, obviously expanding their army. Now why is it bad to suggest they go for the battleforce? in the long run they save TBH as long as it isn't rammed down my throat I'm fine. If they get to much I say no nothing today actually and put it back.

Essentially if they are badgering you make it clear you are looking for X or if they are suggesting things that cost a bit and you dont want to spend that much the phrase I dont have much money at the moment is fine to use. Or a polite no thankyou not today.

Staff are encouraged to interact and find out about people even when it is clear they dont want to buy dont be offended if you walk into a SHOP and a member of staff encourages you to BUY something. God forbid that an employee would be trying to sell a product.

This is turning into a rant and long post so will cut myself off here!

A

Thud
10-12-2008, 00:09
I've only been in an actual GW store once and that was a pleasurable experience. One of the employees came up to me and asked me if I was wondering what the stuff they were selling was, and when I told him I'd played 40k for a few years we had a short conversation about it in general and he then asked me if there was anything in specific I was looking for, I said I was only browsing, so he left me alone.

Imus
10-12-2008, 00:25
GW is there to sell stuff, they are a plc which is dedicated to one thing = £

Occulto
10-12-2008, 00:42
Sure, there's the odd person they've turned down or prevented from playing system "X", but 99% of the time as said person has been or is a ^&*( to them, other customers or just in general. Frankly considering the abuse they have to put up with from customers moaning at them over the loss of bitz/prices/broken lists/this months gripe, none of which is anything to do with them at all, I'm considering putting them forth for canonisation.

Ah yes, the injustice of being kicked out of a store after baiting the staff by demanding the right to play Rogue Trader with Zoats and Fimir. Seen that mentioned before. :rolleyes:


I don't know any other store or chain where it is seemingly acceptable for people to go in there, hang about and moan about how crappy release X is, lament the passing of old or obsolete systems, not spend any money and then act surprised when these busy people aren't entirely polite to them all the time. Try going into HMV or similar and drone on at one of the assistants about how much better video tapes were or how Oasis now suck compared to back in 1999 and see how long it is until security have you removed.

Don't you know? It doesn't matter if the last figure you bought was twenty years ago. Simply possessing GW stuff gives you the right to treat the store like it's your own loungeroom.

That kid who just dumped enough cash to make the store's weekly sales target? He's got no right to be there. :p

zedeyejoe
10-12-2008, 06:08
I am reminded of the recent collapse of Woolworths in the UK. A lot of comments were "Well I have not been in for a long time, I don't think that they have anything I want". Same with GW for me.

If the shops were successful, then perhaps staff would be busy making sales (standing behind the till and taking money) than trying to persuade people to buy stuff. I appreciate that they have to make best use of the footfall but that's really making the best of a bad situation.

SamVimes
10-12-2008, 06:13
I am reminded of the recent collapse of Woolworths in the UK. A lot of comments were "Well I have not been in for a long time, I don't think that they have anything I want". Same with GW for me.

If the shops were successful, then perhaps staff would be busy making sales (standing behind the till and taking money) than trying to persuade people to buy stuff. I appreciate that they have to make best use of the footfall but that's really making the best of a bad situation.

Because the number of people who play or want to play warhammer is near the number who need a sweater for the winter :rolleyes:

Sleazy
10-12-2008, 08:50
I too thought about GW when Woolies went under.

They tend to sit on the same high streets (round here anyway), GW wasnt in a great position before the economic downturn, I really do worry for them. I know I have had to cut back on my hobby spends recently.

Jedi152
10-12-2008, 08:56
I wonder how they have been affected by the credit crunch. I too haven't bought anything for ages, but then i only really spend £15-£20 a time anyway.

They were pushing Christmas stuff last time i went in, i wonder what it will take for them to break their own code and start having special offers, especially now that 20-25% off days are becoming more and more popular in high street shops.

Much as we slag them off, i doubt anyone wants to see them go under.

Bloodknight
10-12-2008, 09:49
Depends on if the continental Europeans who have not been hit very hard by the credit crunch save them by ordering in England. ;) We basically get GW stuff at slightly above half price there now (and if more people used that method of obtaining stuff, I suppose that our stores would just die in exchange...there's just no reason to buy at home currently. Not at 45% difference. Example: Baneblade: 95€ here, 55 if we pay in Pounds. Forgeworld dreadnoughts are cheaper than the plastic model if you bought the plastic guy here). As you can imagine, spending has gone up a lot with all people I play with...
Cost of living has also slightly decreased, fuel prices are at a level from 2 years ago. (diesel used to be over 1.50 Euro per litre, now it's hovering around 1.07 to 1.10).

EmperorNorton
10-12-2008, 09:54
Depends on if the continental Europeans who have not been hit very hard by the credit crunch save them by ordering in England. ;)

I certainly did my part.
Worked out as saving 40% for me, and 60% of our normal price happens to be a price I'm extremely comfortable paying.
As a result there are huge piles of GW products lying around my home.

And with the pound getting cheaper and cheaper I'm already thinking about another big order. Maybe after the holidays.

I'm feeling sorry for my local indy store, though, but considering the alternative I just cannot justify paying (close to) full price.

theenigma
10-12-2008, 11:18
Must admit I was thinking of a few times I was “targeted” by the red / blueshirts. In the past it has only happened once or twice and then once they got to “know” me they just left me to my own devices!

I remember when there used to be “sales” by GW (bought a whole SW army once for about £50 including 3 boxes each of the old metal Bloodclaws, Grey Hunters and Longfangs with a blister or two thrown in for good measure).
I used to like the sales, it wasn’t like they happened every weekend but they were there at peak times (especially when they sold off the old lead models… still have the posters that mail order sent out) and on more than one occasion emptied my bank balance (about £150 when I was 13!)

I think they should at least offer some sort of discount or incentive, I passed my local GW the other day and popped in for a chat.
It seems if you spend £200 or more at the moment you get a free cardboard box to put the lot in! Admittedly it is made up to look like a plasma ammo box but still, a free cardboard box when you spend £250???

Personally I think they need to do a few things to get more customers / transactions:

·Seriously look at an incentive program / discounts / sales – It is critical to get return customers in any business, if you just focus on selling “starter” sets and don’t cater for the returning / regular customer it will not work. There is no assurance that the new customers will return, whereas there is an almost guaranteed income to be had from older players who are more likely to spend either regularly or put a lot more down when a new army gets released / updated. On top of that if you give them a 10% off card or some kind of "points-for-purchases" card it's possible they would want to work towards building up points to exchange for vouchers or models (a bit like the old Skullz promotion but with more "levels" to work towards).

·Look again at how to cater for the “vet” players – how about having events where vets bring down their armies to show to new players, perhaps even play a few games with them so they are encouraged to interact with the veterans of tomorrow!

·Look at how the staff can perhaps have more control over their stores – e.g. doing up flyers of local games / tournys, regular competitions for all ages, encouraging the "regulars" to share their knowledge with new players.

There was a redshirt who once taped the soundtrack to Die Hard Trilogy off his PS1 and played that for the day instore! What do we have now? some generic tape that gets sent out to all stores so they sound exactly the same (could probably sync them all up around the country!). Whilst I'm not saying they should put the LoTR soundtrack on repeat whilst they are open I do think they should have more inspirational tunes. When I was last there they were playing some crappy pop songs!

I remember the first few times I went into a GW and they were probably the best times I have ever had in a GW store. First time I went there a great redshirt taught me how to highlight / shade my models, second time I played a game against a vet with the help of the redshirts there and third they had a sale on!
It seems that staff are rapidly being converted into "salesmen" instead of being the "hobbyists" I remember (they used to pass on their enthusiasm for the game, that was enough to get me to buy, although I must admit to being a "Painter" more than a "Gamer" so the artwork and Fluff also worked to fire the imagination)

Something needs to happen to change how things are, at the moment vet players feel somewhat alienated and new players aren't encouraged to return. There doesn't seem to be that many "middle ground" players anymore.

Nowadays I would be the first to admit that I buy my stuff online, the last time I bought something in my local GW was AoBR and even then that was because I had vouchers that were running out. I visit my GW more for the social side of the hobby, it seems now more than ever that customer service / satisfaction is critical in getting returning trade.

Well my fingers are protesting now they are partly embedded in my keyboard so I better cut my rant off.

Cheers,

Harv

Hestan-San
10-12-2008, 11:52
I worked for an indipendent retailer selling GW stuff for a long time. Above anything else the thing that generated better sales was our discount poilicy. 10% off if you spent £50, 15% off over £100. Not the biggest discounts out there, but something that would consistently get customers spending more... and more to the point, spend it at our store, rather than at the GW 5 miles up the road!

BajsArne
10-12-2008, 11:55
Regarding music, I feel sorry for the redshirts. Those few records they were allowed to play drove me crazy and I was only there once or twice a week. I will always associate "Motorcycle emptiness" with GW Nottingham.

parus_ater
10-12-2008, 12:01
On the music front, I remember a fair few years ago, Game on Princes St in Edinburgh got busted for the staff playing their own Cd's, the fine was a fair whack if I remember. You've got to have a licence for playing music in public and pay rights to the publisher. That's why starbucks started doing cd's.

parus_ater
10-12-2008, 12:07
the range of products available to the indie market in the UK is the same as the produt range in the GW sotres. products do come and go, in exactly the same way as they do for GW retail stores as well but teh ranges are consistent between the stores and indies

Well that's nonsense. I've seen what my indy can and can't get, infact I've even done his ordering. He can order the odd "weirder" blister but can't get a stock of certain releases. A few months down the line from some "exclusive" he might get a few overstocks hardsold from the rep when he deems to lower himself to speek to his clients. Thing's like boxed special like that 3 pack of eldar walkers or limited ed blisters can be got but every thing on the list? Nope.

Brother Loki
10-12-2008, 12:32
You may well find that GW stores can't get a lot of those things either - many things are now going to mail order only - quite a few of the Apocalypse deals for example, and many of the less popular blisters which used to just tie up stock in stores.

parus_ater
10-12-2008, 12:41
Thinfg is, GW's are like any other shop. If a manager finds that it took him over a year to sell a batch of one item, would he bother buying in more? Nope!

Hestan-San
10-12-2008, 14:04
Well that's nonsense. I've seen what my indy can and can't get, infact I've even done his ordering. He can order the odd "weirder" blister but can't get a stock of certain releases. A few months down the line from some "exclusive" he might get a few overstocks hardsold from the rep when he deems to lower himself to speek to his clients. Thing's like boxed special like that 3 pack of eldar walkers or limited ed blisters can be got but every thing on the list? Nope.

We were able to order everything that was on the list. The only time we coudn't get items was when they had sold out (limited edition stuff mostly). We had a great relationship with our rep, in fact, he was dead keen to help us out in whatever way he could. Whenever special items were getting low we'd be informed and could get our hands on them, the apocalypse boxes were a great example of this, we managed to buy up a fair few, hold onto them and sell them on ebay at pretty much rrp a few months after they dissapeared from retailers shelves.

GW did however start shafting indie retailers this year, they stopped supplying gaming materials. So 5th ed 40k was not promoted in our store the way we had in the past. No intro games, no painting clinics. For the sake of writing off a black reach set and a rule book they have probably cost themselves dozens of sales in our store alone. Rather foolish!

blongbling
10-12-2008, 16:48
is that the same shafting that gave indies more discounts and started treating them all fairly rather "nice customers" getting benefits that others didnt......?

zedeyejoe
10-12-2008, 22:41
Are all customers equal? I think not. On discounts I allow customers to choose for themselves. There is a scale of discount based on size of order and payment method (I like cash with order). So not everyone gets the same discount but all are free to choose from the same list, the rate that they are going to get.

General Squeek Squeek
10-12-2008, 22:53
1) Can't say that experience is common. In the four games workshops in my area none of them have ever done anything of the sort that happened to you. For them beginner nights simply means that vets will not have priority if the store is full (which makes sense), but if its empty we can go ahead and play. Still I guess some places are very strict, but alas most of those places will lose appeal. Hopefully the managers get replaced to correct that kind of problem before the store completely tanks due to gamer disinterested.

If I were you I'd write to the Company about your bad experience. Chances are nothing will change, but if enough people do they'll probably at least contact that store and tell them to lighten up.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
10-12-2008, 23:11
is that the same shafting that gave indies more discounts and started treating them all fairly rather "nice customers" getting benefits that others didnt......?


GW nice to independents, lol, the only discounts the indies get are the new 2.5% reduction in VAT, half a dozen items down by 50p (box sets) and this


Volume discounts are dependant upon the value of products purchased from Games
Workshop over the preceding 12 month period. For the purposes of assessing the value
of discount qualified for, the invoiced value of products purchased over the previous 12 months should be used.

Discount Percentage
0 € 49,999 € 0.00%
50,000 € 99,999 € 0.50%
100,000 € 149,999 € 1.00%
150,000 € 199,999 € 1.50%
200,000 € 249,999 € 2.00%
250,000 € 299,999 € 2.50%
300,000 € 349,999 € 3.00%
350,000 € 399,999 € 3.50%
400,000 € 449,999 € 4.00%
450,000 € 499,999 € 4.50%
500,000 € + 5.00%

you have to buy a lot of items even to qualify for even the most basic discount

logan054
10-12-2008, 23:21
Seriously though I wouldnt say it was a feeling of being alienated that bothered me, more the slightly sinister 'thought police' type of vibe I was getting, like a "how dare you question the mighty GW" attitude.

reminds me of when i dare question the WD list, i seem to remember the store manager telling me how great it was that a mundane shield costs more than enchanted shield and how balanced it was.

I have since given up talking to the guy about the hobby, i really hate yes men, thankfully the younger staff arnt silly (aside the WS5 HE spearmen i saw in a intro game....).

I'll be honest here, i actually dont think im going to continue spending money on GW anymore, i think i need a grand total or 3/4 models for my DE army (which i will buy at some stage) and thats its. I really dislike the direction the hobby has taken, i personally started in 2nd ed 40k (i must have just missed rouge trader even if i have the book) and i think until recently i was spending about £100 a month on various bits and bobs.

So sure GW could do more to alienate customers such as myself, not a whole lot more, really the only attraction GW has is its models, the rules are shoddy at best and to be honest i actually think i have written better things half mashed out of my face.

Im just glad warhammer isnt my only hobby, just means i have more cash to spend on my model railway (which gives just as much pleasure :) )

Hestan-San
11-12-2008, 01:02
GW nice to independents, lol, the only discounts the indies get are the new 2.5% reduction in VAT, half a dozen items down by 50p (box sets) and this


Volume discounts are dependant upon the value of products purchased from Games
Workshop over the preceding 12 month period. For the purposes of assessing the value
of discount qualified for, the invoiced value of products purchased over the previous 12 months should be used.

Discount Percentage
0 € 49,999 € 0.00%
50,000 € 99,999 € 0.50%
100,000 € 149,999 € 1.00%
150,000 € 199,999 € 1.50%
200,000 € 249,999 € 2.00%
250,000 € 299,999 € 2.50%
300,000 € 349,999 € 3.00%
350,000 € 399,999 € 3.50%
400,000 € 449,999 € 4.00%
450,000 € 499,999 € 4.50%
500,000 € + 5.00%

you have to buy a lot of items even to qualify for even the most basic discount

That's quite correct. For the purpose of clarity GW offer an unmodified purchase price (after VAT is taken into account) of 35% below RRP to all of their indie stockists. The discounts mentioned above are on top of that. 35% is not a big markup, although it is inline with a lot of other hobby suppliers (Hornby Railways, Scalextric, Plastic Kit Manufacturers, some RC distributers). My point is really that GW donesn't treat indies any differently to the way any other hobby suppplier does.

Battlefront Miniatures (Flames of War) for the record are far better.... offering much better margins, better support and better terms. Also, amusingly enough, most of their UK division seem to be ex GW HQ employees :D

parus_ater
11-12-2008, 10:54
They are a lot cheaper indeed but they look like they've been sculpted out of used chewing gum! lol

Lars Porsenna
11-12-2008, 13:47
A lot of Battlefront's vehicles are OK (I decided to use their PZIIIMs over Skytrex/Old Glory's), but I agree the figures look like hypercephalous gnomes...

Damon.

Hestan-San
11-12-2008, 21:55
A lot of Battlefront's vehicles are OK (I decided to use their PZIIIMs over Skytrex/Old Glory's), but I agree the figures look like hypercephalous gnomes...

Damon.

aye, I never said they were any good :p

Brother Loki
12-12-2008, 14:34
The 35% margin for trade is entirely comparable to that offered by all the other distributors in the UK for gaming products (RPGs, CCGs, Board games etc) such as Hobbygames, Esdevium and so on. Most of them have a scale of additional discounts based on order quantities as well, just like the table above. GW's normal trade price is typical of the industry, and unless anything's massivbely changed since late 2005 when I was running an indie store, you could order the same as the GW stores could, with the exception that on specialist games you couldn't order anything but the main boxed sets (I'm not sure of GW stores could either, actually).

They never officially used to provide free demo materials to stores or anything (in contrast some companies do and some don't, and Privateer sell demo kits and prize support to shops), although I seem to recall one of our reps offering to write of a BfM set as damaged or something similar so we could crack it open for demos. I don't know what they do now.

Leith
17-12-2008, 22:29
1) Turned away from playing a game with a mate in a pretty much empty GW store. Apparently people who aren't beginners can sometimes play after the other games on a saturday and not at all on a sunday. In one hour in store (on a sunday) no one else turned up with armies at all, but despite onlookers me and my mate couldn't play (althought the assistant let us set up for 10 minutes before telling us). When i first started i found the opportunity to watch veterans with painted large armies pretty inspiring. Apparently GW prefer 10 year olds with unpainted 750 point forces. n.b. I didn't know about their ridiculous policy before hand so wasn't just being belligerent.

2) Shunning of specialist games. Fair enough if you wan't to get rid but don't be disengenous GW just get rid and don't wheel out Jervis to pretend you give a ****.

Try coming down to my local store! 2 empty tables most of the time (well, one at the moment, space is being taken up by a WIP) for people to have a game on, which is encouraged. Sunday may be the only problem as it is the Beginners day, so if you don't want to be swamped with kids, avoid it. Saturday is generally big game day to which all are invited. All that is asked is politness. Ask before setting up, bear in mind the time (a 3000 point game at 5pm is not a good idea). As for specialist games, bring them on! Bloodbowl tables available, as well as source books for Necromunda, Epic, Warmaster, Inquisitor, even old school Space Hulk. Not technically SG, but its pretty cool :D



5) Inability to actually buy most of the miniatures in store. I wonder how much custom they have lost already.

To be fair, the models gone are blisters. The ones you need very few of, generally. Most metal squads/regiments are now boxed in usable quantities. I can wait a few days for a specialist model. Whats the rush?

Admittadly, the guys in the store could have let you play, and it seems they were a bit of an ass about things, but doesn't mean you should tar every GW aspect with the same bitter brush.

neXus6
17-12-2008, 22:42
The price thing does swing about a bit depending on who you compare to who, but one I like is that a Perry Miniatures metal Ashigaru Arquebusier costs LESS than a plastic Empire Handgunner...not only is the metal model more detailed and better in pretty much every way it is basicly exactly the same size too.
In this time of "oh we need to put metal models up in price because of world prices" pull the other one GW. ;)

If I had anywhere else to play other than a GW shop I would have stopped using GW models years ago. :p

Ben
17-12-2008, 23:04
Add me again for inability to buy GW product in a GW store. Apparently the Snarsnik and Gobbla released with the 7th ed OnG army book is not only £18 now, but only available from mail order.

I'll buy one from an Indie after Christmas.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
18-12-2008, 01:49
Add me again for inability to buy GW product in a GW store. Apparently the Snarsnik and Gobbla released with the 7th ed OnG army book is not only £18 now, but only available from mail order.

I'll buy one from an Indie after Christmas.


Unless the indie already has one in stock, you have to get it from GW as its not on the trade list of what indies can get

This is all the indies can get for Orcs and Gobbos

ORC & GOBLIN BATTALION
FOREST GOBLIN SPIDER RIDERS
NIGHT GOBLIN REGIMENT
NIGHT GOBLIN FANATICS
ORC WARBOSS (FOOT & MOUNTED)
ORC WARRIORS REGIMENT
ORC BOAR CHARIOT
GOBLIN WOLF RIDERS
GOBLIN REGIMENT
ORCS MINI-SET
ORC AND GOBLIN ARMY
BLACK ORC REGIMENT


GOBLIN ROCK LOBBER
ORC WARBOSS ON WYVERN
GOBLIN WOLF CHARIOT
GOBLIN DOOM DIVER
ORC SHAMAN (FOOT & MOUNTED)
ORC BOARBOYZ
GORBAD IRONCLAW


GOBLIN SPEAR CHUCKA
BLACK ORC WARBOSS
GOBLIN HEROES
NIGHT GOBLIN HEROES
GOBLIN SHAMANS
NIGHT GOBLIN SHAMANS
GOBLIN WARBOSS ON WOLF
SNOTLINGS
NIGHT GOBLINS SQUIG HOPPERS
NIGHT GOBLINS SQUIG HERDERS
BLACK ORC BIG BOSS
NIGHT GOBLIN BOSS ON GIANT SQUIG
TROLL

Brother Loki
18-12-2008, 12:18
Wasn't that a limited edition model anyway? Was it ever available to indies and GW stores. I thought it was direct only.

DartzIRL
18-12-2008, 12:40
Exchange rate at 92p to the Euro, and I'm being charged €95 for a 60 pound Baneblade. That's my big gripe. I remember when, back when we had the Punt, which was at a similar exchange rate, they used to just give the Sterling prices in Punt.

That's all I really want to say.

Compared to normal Irish retail staff who treat it like it's a priveledge they even let you into the store, GW's are better. Better a bit overeager than completely apathetic...

yabbadabba
18-12-2008, 19:41
Wasn't that a limited edition model anyway? Was it ever available to indies and GW stores. I thought it was direct only.

It was what they call a splash release across both UK Retail and UK trade - not sure about other countries. This meant that there were a limited amount but an account could order as many as they wanted.

Cheeko
18-12-2008, 21:03
I usually am fairly acquiescent with GW's attitude but recently have become more than a bit miffed and am really thinking of pulling the plug.

I just have noticed a catalogue of unbelievable GW decisions

yeah i couldnt agree more theres also i few things thats startin to really wind me up about GW is

1) there ability to forget a few races in 40k (DARK ELDAR+NECRONS) but the marines get all the attention (i know they have to think about popularity but this is taking the ****!)

2) when i first started the hobby (10years ago) there was a feelin of real passion to the hobby but now like most companys its just money money money!!!!

im not goin to quit the hobby over those annoyances but it does make me think is it worth it anymore.

VerifiablySane
18-12-2008, 21:07
It was what they call a splash release across both UK Retail and UK trade - not sure about other countries. This meant that there were a limited amount but an account could order as many as they wanted.

Skarsnik and Gobbla are still available online.

yabbadabba
18-12-2008, 21:13
Skarsnik and Gobbla are still available online.

Maybe you misunderstood me. GW Stores and Indies in the UK might not be able to order them anymore because they were a splash release. Of course it wasn't limited so is available from GW's website.

Strix
18-12-2008, 22:06
Can anyone else confirm if this is the case in other workshop stores or just my local one.

Basically, the manager seems to be doing his level best to run vets night into the ground. To play a game on a thursday, as well as the relevant codex, army book and rulebook, I also need to bring:

My own dice (I dont know why)
Templates (again, i dont know)
Tape measures (but only GW branded ones)

As well as this, Veterans games are only allowed after 2pm, they have to be booked in and we're only allowed to use the two tables at the back instead of the intro tables as well. When theres 20+ regulars in there, getting a game is getting really difficult. Forge world stuff (the building and painting of) is also banned for some reason.

This approach of limiting games under the pretence of needing to keep the intro tables open is building resentment and I can't help feeling that forcing vets to buy dice and tape measures not only seems like a cheap marketing ploy to squeeze a few extra quid out of people, but frankly is a bit insulting as well.

so is this my manager just following orders or is this just the case in my local? and insight would be greatly appreciated

Wook
18-12-2008, 22:40
I feel that games workshop does not do enough to alienate veterans, each time I go to my local store I am so traumatised by the smell and the sort of weirdoes you only normally find on buses that after feeding my habit, I am forced to seek solace in the pub. I games Workshop staff could please, just be blunt and offensive to the "veterans" then the shops would smell better, and I would stop wasting my money on models that I will never paint (or possibly get out the box) and on crap beer. Sadly the relationship between myself and games workshop, (and for all other veterans) the same as the relationship between a crack whore and her pimp. The whore is safely addicted and so needs no attention, whist the last thing the pimp/dealer wants prospective addicts to know is what the addiction will turn you into. So for the health of my bank balance, and for your own long term success PLEASE GAMES WORKSHOP WILL YOU JUST SHOOT VETRANS ON SIGHT, for I think if you don't I will drown myself in models.

EmperorNorton
18-12-2008, 22:46
I feal that games workshop does not do enough to alienate veterans, each time I go to my local store I am so tramatised by the smell and the sort of weirdos you only normaly find on buses that after feeding my habit, I am forced to seek solece in the pub. I games Workshop staff could please, just be blunt and offencive to the "vetrans" then the shops would smell better, and I would stop waisting my money on models that i will never paint (or posibly get out the box) and on crap beer. Sadly the relationship between myself and games workshop, (and for all other vetrans) the the same as the relationship between a crack whore and her pimp. The whore is safely addicted and so needs no attention, whist the last thing the pimp/dealer wants prospective adicts to know is what the adiction will turn you into. So for the helth of my bank ballence, and for your own long term sucsess PLEASE GAMES WORKSHOP WILL YOU JUST SHOOT VETRANS ON SIGHT, for i think if you don't i will drow myself in models.

I think this post "tramatised" my "fealings"...
(And no, I don't spent times in GW stores.)

Verm1s
19-12-2008, 01:01
Exchange rate at 92p to the Euro, and I'm being charged €95 for a 60 pound Baneblade. That's my big gripe. I remember when, back when we had the Punt, which was at a similar exchange rate, they used to just give the Sterling prices in Punt.

You should follow the example of other shoppers and make a trip up here. :p Mind you, don't be surprised if the staff try to convince you to drive up from Dublin for each of their ork campaign saturdays.

("I'd have to drive 50 miles," I said. "I don't think I could make them." [Or bother my ****, I thought] "You could try," I was told...)

Sidstyler
19-12-2008, 05:12
This approach of limiting games under the pretence of needing to keep the intro tables open is building resentment and I can't help feeling that forcing vets to buy dice and tape measures not only seems like a cheap marketing ploy to squeeze a few extra quid out of people, but frankly is a bit insulting as well.

so is this my manager just following orders or is this just the case in my local? and insight would be greatly appreciated

That sounds kinda harsh. Banning FW products makes no sense, they're GW models and with the release of Apocalypse they're really kind of encouraging their use. Having only two tables to play on kinda sucks, too, not being able to play with my models discourages me from wanting to buy more after all. ;)

As for bringing your own dice, templates, and tape measure...well, I thought everyone had to do that anyway, I never go to a game without them (and my gigantic bag full of 120+ dice). Being forced to use ONLY GW-branded tapes and dice is kinda stupid, though.

Orkeosaurus
19-12-2008, 05:33
I feal that games workshop does not do enough to alienate veterans, each time I go to my local store I am so tramatised by the smell and the sort of weirdos you only normaly find on buses that after feeding my habit, I am forced to seek solece in the pub. I games Workshop staff could please, just be blunt and offencive to the "vetrans" then the shops would smell better, and I would stop waisting my money on models that i will never paint (or posibly get out the box) and on crap beer. Sadly the relationship between myself and games workshop, (and for all other vetrans) the the same as the relationship between a crack whore and her pimp. The whore is safely addicted and so needs no attention, whist the last thing the pimp/dealer wants prospective adicts to know is what the adiction will turn you into. So for the helth of my bank ballence, and for your own long term sucsess PLEASE GAMES WORKSHOP WILL YOU JUST SHOOT VETRANS ON SIGHT, for i think if you don't i will drow myself in models.:evilgrin:

Wintertooth
19-12-2008, 08:46
When theres 20+ regulars in there, getting a game is getting really difficult.

As I understand it, the GW stores are supposed to be focussed on getting new people into the hobby, which would explain him keeping the intro tables open. If some kid comes into the store looking to get into 40k, they're not going to say "sorry, today is veterans only. come back some other time" and send a sale back out the door.

Have you thought about starting a club? If there are 20+ veterans looking for a game week in, week out it shouldn't be hard to get off the ground, and it would be a far better environment for gaming in.

VerifiablySane
19-12-2008, 09:01
This approach of limiting games under the pretence of needing to keep the intro tables open is building resentment and I can't help feeling that forcing vets to buy dice and tape measures not only seems like a cheap marketing ploy to squeeze a few extra quid out of people, but frankly is a bit insulting as well.

With 20+ gamers, is there no way someone could organise a club, eliminating your need to rely solely upon GW?
I don't understand why keeping the intro tables free to introduce new people to your hobby is simply a pretence - is there other info you could give us to explain that?
As for the dice and tape measures - I know in the two stores local to me, the staff have commented on how many tape measures they throw away every year because they get misused and therefore broken. The fact is that people are a hell of a lot more careful with how they handle their own tape measures, and if they're not then it's there own problem not GW's. The same applies to the dice. I saw one former manager pick up 76 dice from under the shelves and around the tables after one games night (we were counting as he went along) - if a gamer drops dice that belongs to him, he's 100% likely to bother picking it up again.

Edit: whoops, covered already.

blongbling
19-12-2008, 09:34
Can anyone else confirm if this is the case in other workshop stores or just my local one.

Basically, the manager seems to be doing his level best to run vets night into the ground. To play a game on a thursday, as well as the relevant codex, army book and rulebook, I also need to bring:

My own dice (I dont know why)
Templates (again, i dont know)
Tape measures (but only GW branded ones)

As well as this, Veterans games are only allowed after 2pm, they have to be booked in and we're only allowed to use the two tables at the back instead of the intro tables as well. When theres 20+ regulars in there, getting a game is getting really difficult. Forge world stuff (the building and painting of) is also banned for some reason.

This approach of limiting games under the pretence of needing to keep the intro tables open is building resentment and I can't help feeling that forcing vets to buy dice and tape measures not only seems like a cheap marketing ploy to squeeze a few extra quid out of people, but frankly is a bit insulting as well.

so is this my manager just following orders or is this just the case in my local? and insight would be greatly appreciated

i dont see anything wrong here, bringing your own stuff isnt unreasonable at all........making sure the tables are booked isnt an issue, it makes sure that there is space.

You also need to understand that he has to keep tables free for intro games as that is part of his job. he is measured on teh amount of intro games he does so by not having a table free to do it he is effectively firing himself.

The alternatives are many and varied, the first i would suggest is to set up your own club if you are really unhappy that you cant get a game in the store....alternatively book the tables earlier

yabbadabba
19-12-2008, 10:08
To be honest mate this sounds like the guy is doing his job. To me it sounds like there was a little "Vets Republic" going on and the manager is trying to restore some normality.


To play a game on a thursday, as well as the relevant codex, army book and rulebook, I also need to bring:
My own dice (I dont know why)
Templates (again, i dont know)
Tape measures (but only GW branded ones)

You need all the above to play the game. A GW store is a shop first and an opportunist hobby area second. It's not a library or a hire shop. If you don't have the above, how do you play out of the store? As for using GW branded ones, of course it is a sales and advertising ploy. Makes sense. Plus with the tape measures there is bound to be some sort of H+S crap to go with it. There normally is :rolleyes:


As well as this, Veterans games are only allowed after 2pm, they have to be booked in and we're only allowed to use the two tables at the back instead of the intro tables as well. When theres 20+ regulars in there, getting a game is getting really difficult.

Sounds reasonable and like a lot of stores I have visited over the years. You again have to remember it's a business first, not a club or your front room.


Forge world stuff (the building and painting of) is also banned for some reason.

Used to be if the manager couldn't sell it, he shouldn't have it in the store. There is some laxity in the rules, but as far as I know forgeworld things are not "official" (:rolleyes:) and therefore not a part of the core game. As for building, the resin in the models is known to contain toxic elements. Hence the recommendation to prepare the model in a well ventolated area or preferably outside.


This approach of limiting games under the pretence of needing to keep the intro tables open is building resentment and I can't help feeling that forcing vets to buy dice and tape measures not only seems like a cheap marketing ploy to squeeze a few extra quid out of people, but frankly is a bit insulting as well.


It isn't a pretence. They have to have Intro tables free as it is there prime vehicle for recruitment. And as for the dice and tape measure, how can you be insulted in being asked to provide for yourself something you need anyway?

If you are feeling resentful then you need to re-evaluate why you are involved with this thing. I couldn't wait to fly the coop all those years ago. A store can be a great place to meet people and catch up but to be honest a club or a room in your house will always be superior.

swordwind
19-12-2008, 10:49
I suppose GW could always organise death squads...

daemonkin
19-12-2008, 11:03
I suppose GW could always organise death squads...

Q. F. T.

D.

zedeyejoe
19-12-2008, 11:14
Just a quick aside with my own experience. I was playing at a tournament at Nottingham and had forgotten to bring my dice/templates with me. However the GW shop was happy to loan these items to me (all I had to provide was a returnable deposit). So good one GW.

daemonkin
19-12-2008, 12:14
There is nothing wrong with being required to bring your own dice/templates/measure tape but to draw the line at Only GW dice/templates/tape is a bit draconian. I mean you can use a B&Q tape measure if you want.

I know it's a shop first and I have worked in GW so I know that but at the same time I also think the new style tape measure to be horrible and love my old lovely black one.

It's a tad unreasonable. What next, only models bought in a particular GW can be played with in that store? Proof of purchase required upon commencement of play? Sampling models to obtain proof that it is a GW-used material? Checking that the glue used is only GW-sold glue?

D.

x-esiv-4c
19-12-2008, 12:32
GW tape only? Now that does seem a little silly.

Jedi152
19-12-2008, 12:48
If they ever tried a GW tape and glue/paint only, i'd laugh them out of the store.

Commisarlestat
22-12-2008, 17:14
Have people thought about how much it costs to have a gaming area? They could be using that space for retail! As for the required list for games, apart from being GW only tapemeasures Im with the guy who told you this.

As has been said if you dont have those things you cant play? occaisioanlly they woudl lend the odd tpaemaesure or box of dice to responsible vets int he event of forgotten equipment (have borrowed the occaisional flame template myself). Also if there are loads of people milling surely one of them has that stuff?

To go back to my original point Im sure managers woudl love to have a gaming room in store but that is capital and also a member of staff has to spend half their time check in on it. Contrary to popular belief GW do want vets playing at the back as it encourages others, it would defeat the object if they were allowed to use non GW stuff for everything borrow GW stuff to play and interpret the rules as they liked?

It's liek walking into TGI's with your macdonalds sitting down and asking for some cutlery to eat your meal oh and a plate oh and that table there with your display on is the one I want. Sounds ridiculous, well that is exactly soem people here are saying.

A

Thud
22-12-2008, 18:25
It's liek walking into TGI's with your macdonalds sitting down and asking for some cutlery to eat your meal oh and a plate oh and that table there with your display on is the one I want.

No, it's not. It's more like bringing your own cutlery to TGI's and using that instead of theirs and then be thrown out because they don't allow anyone else's cutlery to be used in their restaurants.


Besides, table-top games are very different from most other things you buy in shops. Ie, you need a large gaming table to use your models. Now, if I didn't have a gaming table at home and the local shop wouldn't let me game there, I'd simply stop buying models, wouldn't I? There wouldn't have been any point in buying models I can't use.

parus_ater
22-12-2008, 20:07
No, it's not. It's more like bringing your own cutlery to TGI's and using that instead of theirs and then be thrown out because they don't allow anyone else's cutlery to be used in their restaurants.




No, the cutlery thing's just the templates, he's talking about figs and the like. :p

Thud
22-12-2008, 20:34
No, the cutlery thing's just the templates, he's talking about figs and the like. :p

Commisarlestat said "non GW stuff for everything" and as the latest posts had been discussing non-GW dice/templates/measure tapes, it would be natural to assume this is what Commisarlestat is referring to as well, non?

yabbadabba
22-12-2008, 20:46
Now, if I didn't have a gaming table at home and the local shop wouldn't let me game there, I'd simply stop buying models, wouldn't I? There wouldn't have been any point in buying models I can't use.

And? Maybe if you didnt have the resources, you shouldn't have started. Besides there are many other aspects of the hobby which don't require a big table to play on. You didn't get into this hobby by looking as a GW store and thinking "Wow - I could spend every evening and Saturday here!" did you? Also when you started, did your first product that you bought come with a voucher or promise for a lifetimes free or paid usage of the store's facilities? No.

Your statement at it's worse reflects the lazy and instant gratification driven society we live in. At it's best, it shows you have completely misunderstood the whole point of getting into wargames. If your hobby depends on your local store making all the effort, why are you doing it?

Why buy a computer game if you can only ever play it at the store you bought it from? And no, GW isn't different from other stores, they have just learnt to market their product instore as effectively as places like Tescos.

A few years ago, a GW manager friend of mine said that somebody had come up with the idea that by keeping customers in the store, they would spend more money. When asked how they would deal with needing to move on the older customers to their homes or local clubs, the answer was "why do you want to do that?" - demonstrating that this person had no idea of how a GW store should fit into it's local community. Sounds like you're in the same place.

Here is a warning - if you think that playing with toy soldiers just involves bowling up at your local store when you need your fix, you might as well go and do something else, cos otherwise you are wasting your money.

Thud
22-12-2008, 21:30
Your statement at it's worse reflects the lazy and instant gratification driven society we live in. At it's best, it shows you have completely misunderstood the whole point of getting into wargames. If your hobby depends on your local store making all the effort, why are you doing it?

Do you know how to read? One would think so, with that you seem to be writing somewhat coherently. Yet, you don't seem to comprehend the words you quoted. You see, reading is more than pronouncing each word in your head, you also have to understand what these words mean.

Now, let's take a look at my statement (which you quoted) once more:


Now, if I didn't have a gaming table at home and the local shop wouldn't let me game there, I'd simply stop buying models, wouldn't I? There wouldn't have been any point in buying models I can't use.

Clause by clause (I'm ignoring the initial adverbial):

"If I didn't have a gaming table at home and the local shop wouldn't let me game there" (Actually, this is more than one clause, as I'm sure you all spotted instantly, but I think it would be easier for our purposes to treat it as one, don't you?)

Or, in other words; "I have a gaming table at home. But if I did not have a gaming table at home, and the local shop did not have such facilities..."

And yet you spend your entire post whining about how I'm a lazy slouch for not having a gaming table at home and instead spend my weekends pestering the atmosphere at the local GW. (For the record; there are no GW shops where I live and the only local indie has no gaming tables.)

"I'd simply stop buying models, wouldn't I?"

This would then be the conclusion of the previous clause. Ie, IF (you might want to look that word up in a comprehensive dictionary (most dictionaries assume people know what it means)) there had been no gaming facilities at my home, nor at the local shop; I would have no place to game. And with no place to game, buying miniatures suddenly becomes less tempting. Thus, it would have little to no purpose for me to spend a hundred pounds monthly on miniatures I could not use.

The last clause, I will leave out as it is basically just a rephrasing of the one we've just gone through.


Now then, I hear you ask, what does this all mean? Well, you see, GW understand that not everyone can have a gaming table at home, or at least; they wish to expand their customer base beyond that which has the ability to acquire a gaming table for themselves. It is therefore that they have gaming tables in their shops so people can still spend hundreds of pounds yearly without the possibility of a gaming table at home.

As I am, yabbadabba, I am sure you too are rich enough to live in a place where you can devote the space required to a gaming table (or what functions as one), but unfortunately this is not the case for everyone. But nevertheless, these people could still contribute financially to GW, but without a gaming table at the local shop, chances are they won't, will they?


The clever readers out there will surely see the similarity between the conclusion of the paragraph preceding this one and my statement quoted by yabbadabba, and to you I say kudos! To the rest of you, I recommend reading up on rhetoric, and in particular; rhetorical questions. I hear this book (http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Rhetoric-Modern-Student-Corbett/dp/0195115422/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229981345&sr=8-1) is quite good.

blongbling
23-12-2008, 09:17
I dont think we need to discuss the nuances of the english language, especially with someone who cannot spell refrigerator correctly :)

gaming tables at home, surely if you cant have a full size one you do what everyone does, use the floor or the dining room tabel with a piece of wood on it?

yabbadabba
23-12-2008, 09:55
I dont think we need to discuss the nuances of the english language, especially with someone who cannot spell refrigerator correctly :)

I am obviously far too stupid to understand last Thud's post.


gaming tables at home, surely if you cant have a full size one you do what everyone does, use the floor or the dining room tabel with a piece of wood on it?

Exactly. I value my local store as a place to buy the occasional toy, catch up on what's going on and to expand my circle of gaming buddies. However a store has so many restrictions on it, I can't understand see this overwhelming desire or passion for the right to gaming in a store as a mainstay of my hobby. I have always known that the best way to enjoy this hobby is in an environment of relaxation. To that end I have played on the floor, with tablecloths, books as hills, mushrooms on cards as forests - anything I could get my hands on.

As I said, maybe I'm too stupid.

Thud
23-12-2008, 18:57
I dont think we need to discuss the nuances of the english language, especially with someone who cannot spell refrigerator correctly :)

I know full well how 'refrigerator' is spelled. I also know how 'don't' is spelled. The erroneous spelling of refrigerator is a part of the very old in-joke in my location. For the record, I am not actually inside a refrigerator right now, you know...


I am obviously far too stupid to understand last Thud's post.

[snip]

As I said, maybe I'm too stupid.

Oh, for heaven's sake, don't take the role of the poor victim of a vicious flaming troll. You were the one who completely strawman'ed me and basically said I represented what's wrong with society today.

Again; GW offers gaming tables means a) gamers are happy because they have a place to play, and b) GW is happy because it generates continued interest and by extension sells more stuff.

I don't know if you've said it personally, but people who tend to agree with you on these issues usually say something along the lines of "when you're a veteran you shouldn't need GW to hold your hand." Well, yeah, that's in itself true, but we can also turn it on its head and say that "it shouldn't be the consumers' responsibility to maintain an interest in a product so to spend money on it." So, it is therefore I contend that GW's apparent attitude on these issues is not only counter-productive, but also doubly annoying. They have created a situation that is pissing off customers and thus losing revenue on the loss of said customers. Ie, it seems that they are more interested in alienating veterans than actually making money.

PANZERBUNNY
24-12-2008, 23:20
I'd rather they kept them but rendered Jervis down itno horse feed personally... Honestly, everything that man touches goes belly up.




Are you out of your mind?

He's been apart of some of the best games GW has to offer. SADLY they choose not to keep them inprint in favour of crap mechanics like 40k/fantasy.

Cant blame them. People seem to thrive off of crap. ie. Britney spears spice girls.
What I'm saying is 40k/fantasy are the pop mainstream tripe of the GW catalogue.


And about people showing up being denied to play...should never happen. EVER! Thats half retarded pig ass business is what that is.

Epic and Blood bowl being two of the best games they've ever made.

Maleficum
25-12-2008, 00:12
'Everything he touches - with the exception of Blood Bowl - goes belly up' then.

Well, to be fair Blood Bowl was brilliant, but a crappy game... until this "Tom"-dude got to write the rules. Now Jervis says how he wants things, but there's a guy that actually know simple arithmetics - not to mention possesses a simple understanding of statistics/chance - and also knows something about gamers' psychology.



On the price of little plastic men. Since I've got a kid and bought him toys the excellent multi-part plastic sets of GW seems cheap. A 14"x14" (-ish) plastic board with design at least 25 years old costs about half that of a box of marines. Talk about profit! The dude/company even got his own country (http://www.lego.com/eng/legoland/default.asp)!!! :P



I for one try not to buy in GW stores, as I too think/feel they're alienating their older customers. My local GWs staff is brilliant, though, but I still feel like they are underpaid kindergarten-employees. (Absolutely nothing wrong with kindergarten, but I don't think the kids are supposed to be dumped in one so that mom/dad can go shopping*... My store still wants the kids to paint their miniatures, though... and the staff are very good in delivering the "whole hobby".


* This is probarly not right for 90%+ of the kids there, but it's just how I've come to think of it.


On Specialist Games:

A friend of mine who is heavily dedicated to Blood Bowl said that GW supports the game better now. (I've just gotten my interest in 40k back... aren't in the loop yet)

PANZERBUNNY
25-12-2008, 00:54
With the release of the blood bowl game for consoles/PC GW should have seriously plotted out another release of the game with the updated rules and models etc.

People think that the game will take away from the physical game, but its the other way around I think.

Commisarlestat
27-12-2008, 22:26
@ thud I meant everything, the analogy is as follows:

Table to eat at: self explanatory table to game on,
Cutlery: dice, tape measure etc.
condiments: glue to fix that broken model a little bit of paint for touch up
Food: the actual models themselves.

So over all yes you can go in with a fully painted GW army and occaisionally ask for the tools needed, for example this is like asking a waiter to replace a 'dirty' knife. He will do it once or twice, but every time you go in asking to go through their cutlery and take your pic?

Food fairly explanatory I dont think anyone is stupid enough to not actually realise how rude that woudl be.
Table, fair enough they supply those, for their food or miniatures, if the place is full then those who are having an after dinner drink after paying may be asked to move to the bar to make room for new diners, analogy gamers who have bought their armies paid for and enjoyed them and dont really need the table desperately are moved to the side for those who will be spending money and have need of the table to rest their plates on. Please also note that this is more pub like in the sense that on certain nights/days this rule will be in force and others not so much. All of which is clearly stated.

Now this extended analogy has a point.

What I am saying is if GW is to survive it needs new hobbyists, it needs the income from those newer players to survive. In the long term if there werent any new players then 6 months down the line they would have next to no sales!

Where we are it is pretty relaxed the regulars old and young tend to mix ok, those who dont want to be in a GW are going to a gaming club somewhere and those who do except that limited space is a factor not only that but there are going to be less experienced players there. Many GW's woudl love to have a room set aside for a gaming club but as a business it makes little money and costs an awful lot meaning to get the money they woudl have to put up prices?

Simple really you get what you pay for, I was asked today by a customer 'why dont you have sales?' this was an hour after a prize draw with a decent prize, one which will be repeated. I then pointed out that yes some fiures can be expensive look at the bulk deals, they may not have sale stamped all over them but next time tot up the savings in black reach or the battalion boxes. Or event he online bulk deals, or all of those models easily created from the extensive bits collection you acrue after a while.

This is a whole hobby with many aspects, to get the full moneys worth you have to use all aspects, that includes painting converting modelling playing with young/old experienced/inexperienced players reading the literature etc etc. buying an army for display may seem expensive but that is like buying a PS3 for one game and playing it once or leaving it on to look good. It doesnt use the product to full capacity.

I'm rambling now. The main point is if you are old enough to be considered a veteran and mature you are old enough to join a club (clubs which are actively encouraged and helped by GW) so stop whining and do soemthing for yourself.

A

simonr1978
27-12-2008, 23:57
I was asked today by a customer 'why dont you have sales?' this was an hour after a prize draw with a decent prize, one which will be repeated. I then pointed out that yes some fiures can be expensive look at the bulk deals, they may not have sale stamped all over them but next time tot up the savings in black reach or the battalion boxes. Or event he online bulk deals, or all of those models easily created from the extensive bits collection you acrue after a while.

I can sort of follow a lot of your analogy but this just doesn't make sense. A prize draw whether it will be repeated once a year or once an hour is not a "sale", bundled products and bulk deals are not "sales" either, many retailers offer one or the other and sales too. I'm not saying GW is necessarily wrong to not offer sales (Due to demand, business model, niche market, etc), but you cannot reasonably compare what they do offer to the kind of sales that many other retailers do offer.

To follow through your restaraunt analogy, refering to models you could create from bits is like pointing out what a customer could have made from their leftovers (There's bread, your wife didn't eat all her shepherd's pie, you had the cheese board after, look that's basically a Cheeseburger tommorrow, what are you complaining about? :D)

W0lf
28-12-2008, 00:21
More and more GW are alientating the veterans in my area.

The funny thing is that we all buy from the store as we play games there, if we moved to a gaming club i doubt id ever pay full price to our local when i can get it online and save 20-30% (then theres ebay).

So is this really a briliant idea?

Crazy Harborc
28-12-2008, 01:11
GW does have limited space problems. So do many of the indie stores I have been to in various cities/towns/etc. Customers who are into wargaming will often want more than just a place to buy......IT is kinda a reason they go into brick and mortar instead of buiying on-line.;)

Stores without tables, stores without longer hours (noon to 9pm at least 5 days out of seven.) Telling customers....no gaming here allowed, those tables are for everybody else....no vet gamers.....newbies only, newbies with painted armies only....etc, etc, etc....... THOSE kinds of happenings will NOT help business grow or bring in newbies who want to give it a try.

Commisarlestat
07-01-2009, 16:08
@ simon, im lactose intolerant so it'd be verging on poisonus! but I do get it. I think we are on the same side with that analogy, if you want that food for later when the restaurant is open take it with you!

@ harborc, The only problem with longer hours is the cost of employment. If players are going to want it open longer simply to play the sales for those hours wont be that great and not worth the money. After cashing up etc the staf wont be home till 11ish after a 9pm close. not really condusive to employment really.

@ the general public etc
Vet gamers tend to have a night and beginners another, during the week days it is generally a free for all but as most go to school work this isn't a great problem.

We have just started enforcing a table booking system to help aleiviate the problems of having to deal with milling newbies. Its hard enough trying to meet your targets and not frighten off potential new customers without the pied piper trail going on.

There is a limited space so it has to be managed simply ask a staff member when you can play, I garuntee if they are actually doing their job they will be able to tell you when you can play and if you cant make it probably about a local club to go to.

GW is a shop not a venue people need to realise this

A

BajsArne
07-01-2009, 16:44
I really think this could be helped if GW made a complete shift in policy in shop location. Instead of having small shops at the most expensive locations possible they should have bigger shops in cheaper locations. The ones that are interested will find them, I don't think there are that many people just passing by and actually start the hobby. A lot more of people coming in just to laugh at the nerds too.

Note that I think this would be a good idea for GW, but I'm not mad at them for not providing me with space. Clubs do that much better anyway.

Ben
07-01-2009, 17:06
I think the expensive locations is a footfall and prestige thing. People have a reason to go to malls or shopping centres, people have far less of a reason to go to down market but cheap dirt malls where GW is between a dollar store and a bail bondsman.

The only problem is that the stores are small and have lots of sociopathic tweenagers in. I propose bigger stores and beanbag rounds.

Sleazy
07-01-2009, 17:12
sorry commissarlestat but we are contantly told GW high prices are to help sustain the huge overhead that running dedicated "hobby centres" inccur, therefore we are indirectly paying for the service.

Rioghan Murchadha
07-01-2009, 17:16
In response to the original question, yes, yes they could do more to alienate veterans. Having employees throat punch any veteran coming through the door would be a start.

Ben
07-01-2009, 17:22
I used to work retail, and I had to do that to customers.

yabbadabba
07-01-2009, 17:40
sorry commissarlestat but we are contantly told GW high prices are to help sustain the huge overhead that running dedicated "hobby centres" inccur, therefore we are indirectly paying for the service.

What has that got to do with anything? You pay money to any organisation and you have no direct say over where that money goes. Doesn't entitle you to anything other than courtesy and the product/service you have bought.

heretics bane
07-01-2009, 18:24
I think the expensive locations is a footfall and prestige thing. People have a reason to go to malls or shopping centres, people have far less of a reason to go to down market but cheap dirt malls where GW is between a dollar store and a bail bondsman.

The only problem is that the stores are small and have lots of sociopathic tweenagers in. I propose bigger stores and beanbag rounds.

Too true! GW belfast is a stone throw away from the red light district:wtf: family friendly porno shops and god knows whta else

Ben
07-01-2009, 19:28
Vets see that as one stop shopping. Kids might find that a little too educational.

Solasun
07-01-2009, 20:18
Too true! GW belfast is a stone throw away from the red light district:wtf: family friendly porno shops and god knows whta else

Sounds like the perfect place for a "Vet's Night."

Cervantes3773
07-01-2009, 20:40
When I was buying my first digital camera, I found a great deal online for the perfect camera. I wanted it that day, so I called and asked if I could pick it up in the store for that price. The CSR told me that the deal was only available online. I asked why, he said: "You pay a premium for the privilege of coming in the store".

I hung up and got another store to match the price.

Point is, you can rationalize it any way you want, but I don't have to spend my money in your store so don't take my business for granted. And taking business for granted is a bad habit, especially in this economy.

Also, funny story: The manager at my local GW (West Oaks) is a bit of a DB (understatement). Last time I was in, I bought a bottle of super glue. When he rung me up, he says, in a bit of a goofy voice, "Eight bucks for a bottle of glue, that's expensive!"

I said "Is it? Should I not buy it?"

He said "Huh? I was being sarcastic, you don't have to buy it if you don't want to."

Of course, what should I expect from a store manager who keeps his corsairs in a plastic bag and wonders why no one wants bent and broken models with flash, mold lines, and too much glue?
/end rant.

Crazy Harborc
08-01-2009, 00:28
Been reading WD for well over 12 years. Been reading here and on other sites about wargaming and about WHFB/40K. It is no secret that GW has built up it's fans (in the USA for certain) with words about come on in, buy your minies, we will help you get started. Learn to paint at the GW store. We have tables, you can game in/at the GW store.

Now.......based on this thread (and other threads), GW should not be expected to provide a gaming location???:confused: Part of the reasons for GW charging higher prices has always been stores with gaming tables, the GW websites.

Um.....join the GW hobby, buy our minies.....BUT go somewhere else to do your gaming???:rolleyes::rolleyes: After all GW is a business.

Zephro
08-01-2009, 00:52
Also it looses them a chunk of the young adult crowd I reckon. As they're no longer young enough to use the shops. But most 18-25 year olds I've known haven't had the room even to play on floors. Shared flats or just pokey bed sits and the like. Then lack of cars....

Most people I played with at school just gave up at University as GW became too expensive and they didn't have anywhere to play.

I got back in recently with historical because it's cheap enough and I'm finally old enough to rent a big enough flat.

So yeah maybe they should focus on actually keeping long term customers rather than going hard at new players.

Velsharoon
08-01-2009, 04:39
hehe i remember when I was younger me and my dad dandering into GW belfast then heading to modellors nook, took a wee dander to see what else was around and saw a second hand book shop

it wasnt your normal second hand bookshop...I didnt know were to look :(

blongbling
08-01-2009, 08:26
I really think this could be helped if GW made a complete shift in policy in shop location. Instead of having small shops at the most expensive locations possible they should have bigger shops in cheaper locations. The ones that are interested will find them, I don't think there are that many people just passing by and actually start the hobby. A lot more of people coming in just to laugh at the nerds too.

Note that I think this would be a good idea for GW, but I'm not mad at them for not providing me with space. Clubs do that much better anyway.

last time i checked GW has next to no expensive location stores but are actually in cheap off the high street locations. Your likes of PLaza and Bluewater are very few and far between in GW land.

blongbling
08-01-2009, 08:28
Also it looses them a chunk of the young adult crowd I reckon. As they're no longer young enough to use the shops. But most 18-25 year olds I've known haven't had the room even to play on floors. Shared flats or just pokey bed sits and the like. Then lack of cars....

Most people I played with at school just gave up at University as GW became too expensive and they didn't have anywhere to play.

I got back in recently with historical because it's cheap enough and I'm finally old enough to rent a big enough flat.

So yeah maybe they should focus on actually keeping long term customers rather than going hard at new players.

i find that to be a pretty poor excuse tbh, why couldnt he get his uni to sort out a club...more like he couldnt be arsed to play anymore

Sleazy
08-01-2009, 08:57
What has that got to do with anything? You pay money to any organisation and you have no direct say over where that money goes. Doesn't entitle you to anything other than courtesy and the product/service you have bought.

No I dont get to tell them what to do with their money. Its well known though that GW stores are a cash sink. Whenever theres an arguement about GW pricing the fact that they provide these stores for us is brought into the debate.

GW high prices partly subsidise the unique business model they have chosen. As a former staffer myself we are constantly told that stores are "hobby centres", thats GWs wording not mine.

For the record I rarely game in a GW store but when I do I have been treated very well and not "alienated" at all. I have nothing but praise for the staff at GW Newcastle, its a much harder job than people give it credit for.

Zephro
08-01-2009, 10:29
i find that to be a pretty poor excuse tbh, why couldnt he get his uni to sort out a club...more like he couldnt be arsed to play anymore


It was an observation of pretty much everyone I knew at high schools experience with the hobby.

Also do you know the amount of hassle involved in setting up union societies. You need to get a petition with the signatures and student numbers of a decent amount of folk before you can set one up here.

Coupled with prices that are hard to afford at Uni.
Coupled with pokey student accommodation so playing at home isn't practical and even storing an army is a pain.

The only GW game I kept going throughout university was Blood Bowl as it was the only practical one tbh.

Crazy Harborc
10-01-2009, 18:43
Well, for the next 17 days there will still be a "hobby center" in my area (the St.Louis area has a population of over 4 million). After that it will be"get out, buy from our site, from mailorder.....from your "local indie stores". Let's see now ....Before GW opened an official store here there were 14 indie stores carrying GW's goodies.....as of now, there are 4 stores listed in the latest WD.....opps make that 3 (after the 26th).

Yeah I know GW has a world wide plan. GW, USA has a plan. IMHO, the plan isit is time to close all the "old GW stores" and open new one elsewhere. Milk the local market, build that market of newbie players (and the parents wallets). Then move on again.....kinda like Sherman's march isn't it?;)

Sidstyler
10-01-2009, 22:54
Isn't that a bitch? They come in, set up shop, drive all the indies out of business, and then later on when there's no one left they leave and you've got nowhere left to play/shop.

baphomael
10-01-2009, 23:45
i find that to be a pretty poor excuse tbh, why couldnt he get his uni to sort out a club...more like he couldnt be arsed to play anymore

To be fair, as a student I can understand. Even with a wargaming society at uni, with all that goes on with student life I dont get nearly as many games in as I'd like.

W0lf
11-01-2009, 01:00
my local GW store just got the vets a seperate painting table from the younger gamers and cleared out space so the regulars could leave their cases in store.

Alienating us? Not much

heretics bane
11-01-2009, 12:21
hehe i remember when I was younger me and my dad dandering into GW belfast then heading to modellors nook, took a wee dander to see what else was around and saw a second hand book shop

it wasnt your normal second hand bookshop...I didnt know were to look :(

The modellors nook is a great place to get bits that GW dont sell such as small chains etc. i was told to go round there by one of the Staffers.

Did you dander into one of the porn shops? A GW shouldnt be that close to the red light district at all if its kids based.

Velsharoon
11-01-2009, 13:14
yeh it was just porn mags and stuff as well as normal books, was odd. This was ten years ago so god knows what the situation is these days, aint had a reason to go out the back of castle court since then really.

Thing is were else would you have a gw?

heretics bane
11-01-2009, 13:36
High street or at the front of Castle court because barely anyone other than people who want porn or going to their cars go past GW.

Anywhere other than there.The old Staffers pointed this out to me.

Orwin
14-01-2009, 20:13
Well, i would like to throw my cents:

Despite understanding what is being said, i never experienced anything GW related since there are no GW stores here in Brazil, there's a prediction for one in the next years. Right now they have a retailer which retains exclusivity rights on being the "representant". Still, i heard that GW's old markets are saturated and that they are moving to developing countries, mostly. Indeed, i believe they are leaving, in some way or another, some of their old markets and will estabilish where fresh money is avaliable.

But despite they killing some of the indies and leaving few to work with when they are gone, indies will always rebuild and thrive again until they decide, after 8 or 10 years, to come back.

Life is cyclical.

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
14-01-2009, 20:30
whilst I agree that GW needs a lot of improvement, it has always been this way in GWs local to me.

Sundays at GW Newcastle and Metrocentre were kidz klub only when I worked there 8 years ago and they are still that now (though Newcastle now have a bunker they may allow for use on a Sunday - I havent tried).

I dont see the problem, by the same token on "vets" night we didnt allow mewling 8 years olds with their emulsion dipped Marnius Calgar and asorted mismatchs (usually wrapped in kitchen roll and stuffed in a biscuit tin.

I'm a vet, I know what I'm doing so 9 times out of 10 I play at home. Now and again if I wanna play in store I go on the appropriate day. Personally I dont want a creche in store when I'm playing.

I used to go to the Newcastle one as well (finances & work keep me from going there to play now). I remember the old Thursday vet days before it became Tuesdays. I wouldn't go on Saturday & Sundays unless I need to. I need to look for a local game club.

Dexter099
15-01-2009, 04:20
My local Games Workshop store is very friendly to the vets and we have a ton of them coming in here. Not to mention two of the redshirts left to go start their own indie down the street 5-10 blocks away, and our GW is actually kinda supporting them and hoping they'll survive.

No alienation. I think it really depends ont he peopel working there.

Because we have Tom Harland. :)

VerifiablySane
15-01-2009, 21:16
My local Games Workshop store is very friendly to the vets and we have a ton of them coming in here. Not to mention two of the redshirts left to go start their own indie down the street 5-10 blocks away, and our GW is actually kinda supporting them and hoping they'll survive.


Similar to my local GW. Which GW you go to Dexter?

Fritzofgalatia
19-01-2009, 18:10
As a former employee (4 or so years back) I can tell you that Veterans can be a pain in the ass. Now I'm not saying this goes for all GW stores, but the stores where I worked did not force veterans out or deny them table space for no good reason. If you came on fantasy night and wanted to play 40k and the tables were full, then yes a fantasy player had dibs. That didn't mean you had to stop playing a game if you had already started, and definitely didn't mean you weren't allowed to play at all even if all the tables were empty. I personally know all and have worked with all the managers of the stores around me (Arundel Mills, Glen Burnie Bunker, and Annapolis, all of which are in Maryland, USA). They have the same philosophy now as they did when I worked with them. Anyways, I digress.

You have to remember, GW is a business. Red shirts are there to build the hobby and sell product. Now veterans can be a help and a hindrance to those goals. If you get in the way of those goals, then yes the red shirt will, and frankly should, treat you as unwelcome. The good veteran is someone who gives painting tips, is patient with new players, is willing to play games with newer players, and is happy to chat up any aspect of the hobby. This kind of veteran is especially helpful at cracking the parent problem as they can come from an unbiased prospective. Parents are often worried that the red shirt is simply trying to take their money and a good veteran can show how rewarding the hobby can be. These kinds of veterans are absolutely wonderful to keep around and I always did everything I could to make them happy. Where do you think the rumors for this very site sometimes come from? That's a red shirt or manager keeping their veterans happy. This trend is very much alive and well at the GW stores around me.

Then you have the bad veterans. These are the guys that sit around feeling entitled to table space even when they bring 40k on a LOTR night. They openly and often trash other GW games (LOTR being the most common), trash the company, and trash models (almost always the new ones). They play only to win and revel in absolutely slaughtering other players, especially newbies. Their army is made to win, with no attention paid to character or paint job. They also interrupt other people's games to trash someone's choice of unit or style of play or to argue some inane rule that doesn't make a bit of difference to what is actually happening on the table. Note that how much you spend is not a factor in how good a veteran you are. Some of the worst veterans are those that drop tons of cash. They feel that because they buy so much they are entitled to do whatever they want.

Obviously we veterans do not all fall into a perfect good or bad category. We have both good and bad habits. I for one tell people that I don't like 40k. Nor am I discrediting the horror stories others have related here and placing the blame squarely on veterans. There are good and bad GW employees just as there are good and bad veterans. However, ask yourself how you behave in a GW store. Are you willing to play games with a newer player and have the patience to genuinely help them learn more about the game? Do you argue rules in games that you have no part in (I know i do)? Do you complain about the company right in front of a parent? Now I'm not saying you have to be constantly peddling GW product, but at least try not to make the red shirt's life harder. You may be pleasantly surprised at how they start to treat you.

Crazy Harborc
20-01-2009, 02:08
My negative experiences at indie's and or our soon to close ST. Louis Mills store as far as 40K players were the trashing other people's whatevers and etc. as described by Fritzofgalatia (I GOT it right!!:)).

By the by I do not recall that type of behaviour from interloping WHFB players, just 40Kers......They were NOT children, but in their early 20s.

Gloom
20-01-2009, 04:06
last time i checked GW has next to no expensive location stores but are actually in cheap off the high street locations. Your likes of PLaza and Bluewater are very few and far between in GW land.

Here in Canada GW has had mostly expensive locations in malls. Only recently didnt they leave the Eaton Center (a large mall in down town toronto) store for a differnt location. The two closest locations to me are the Scarbough Town Center location and the Oshawa center location, both are in malls and much to small for the number of people they get, or atleast they did when I frequented the stores. I'm talking 20, often large and smelly, people in a room big enough for 10 of that size, one of the reasons I dont go to gaming nights anymore.

I'm pretty sure the Vaughmills store is in a mall too, and before it closed due to water damage outweighing the value of keeping it open the Fairveiw store was in a mall.

I do all of my gaming at a gaming club now, most of us dont really care what GW does and usually end up using alot of house rules simply because it fits our style better (Str 4 defensive weapons my ass).

Edit: If I was trying to alienate vet players and also improve the hobby I would:

1. Institute a system where by a person starting an army must register it and sign paper work.
2. Create an attractive all female army that arn't mammals and dont have breasts.
3. Put an army rule in the codex called "THEIR NOT ********** MAMMALS!!!!!1" that states anyone who models breasts onto the models forfeits their right to not have their models broken as doing so violates the contract you signed.
4. Proceed to break peoples models while laughing insanely!!!
5. Dispatch the GW police to WotC 4e design office and erase the person who designed dragonborn, and 4e for that matter.
6. ???
7. Profit!

No really, I would do that if I was GW.

darker4308
20-01-2009, 04:49
I live in Buffalo, NY we don't have a GW store anymore (big city too). Just independent retailers some of which hold game nights Jesters Cap and Hobbytown are my big two. People here who don't use ebay generally state that they purchase specifically to "support the store". I've also watched several independent (and in some cases not so smart) retailers go under in my hometown on trying to support this product. Fact is, GW charges a lot because they can. They have a monopoly on the concept. I mean you hear of people doing warmachine every so often, and also maybe what ... honestly what other minature wargames are played between two strangers.

Name one ? Come on .... I would love play some new games.

The real problem is that GW knows there is a certain type of person that plays mini war games. That person is their person and no matter how much they jack prices. It's sad, but they have complete market staturation. Could they make more by being more accomidating to the loyalists? Sure, but why? where else are we going to go ? The big profits are in the recently hooked, not the old farts who just want to slowly expand.

Maskedman5oh4
20-01-2009, 06:00
Every race could be re-sculpted to be Yu-Gi-Oh themed.

On a serious note:



The real problem is that GW knows there is a certain type of person that plays mini war games. That person is their person and no matter how much they jack prices.

Marketing.


Could they make more by being more accomidating to the loyalists? Sure, but why? where else are we going to go ? The big profits are in the recently hooked, not the old farts who just want to slowly expand

GW makes more selling to newcomers than to long time veterans; A myth largely perpetuated on Warseer.

Achieving profit potential for each customer requires companies to focus on three areas.

1- acquiring new customers
2- enhancing profitability of existing customer
3- extending the duration of customer relationship

If 65% of new entrants into the hobby pickup Space Marines, a conservative estimate, it is in the interest of GW to maintain that line impeccably - it is a 'star' product, with dominant market share and a good potential for growth.

GW then turns to updating their 'cash cow' line - products with a dominant share but low growth prospects - i.e. established popular armies that are not space marines- Guard, Eldar, Tyranids, Orks, Empire, Lizardmen, Vampire Counts.

Then there are the 'dogs' - products with a subordinate market share and low growth prospects - Dark Eldar, Squats, Zombie Pirates, .

This also directly translates into supported gaming systems-

maintain 40k then Fantasy

update Necromunda, Epic, Bloodbowl, BfG

dump Man O'War, Heroquest, Talisman etc.

Not that I personally do not like all that stuff, but it is rather easy to explain GWs decision making processes.

darker4308
20-01-2009, 17:31
On the actionable side of things i think vets in our hobby need to respond to GW firewalling by making a decision to leave bad stores and move to either indee stores or gaming clubs. Sorta like a graduation from GW basic training. I mean a lot of people don't know this, but we are a large portion of the hobby and it is our armies that inspire a lot of the younger guys to keep going....i mean seriously who else might bring a titan.

It's not like we're going to quit, but we can vote with our dollars for stores that accept us. In that, we should take action, organize game night at a local town meeting hall, if the local GW stores is run by dicks show the newbies where to get cut price mini's or sell them your old stuff, put up a flier and collect email addresses from local 40k'ers and start a league. If your pissed do something. I make an attempt to support my local stores as a "thank you for letting me play", but you can be damn sure i'll never order anything from GW mail order or buy anything other than torney tickets in a store. I can't stress enough keeping things local --- it's good for the economy.

Reinholt
21-01-2009, 01:06
To be fair, I think this is a two part question:

1 - Should GW (the meta company) deal differently with customers than they do?

and

2 - Should your local GW (the individual store) deal differently with customers than they do?

I will say right now that I have seen wild swings in the quality of most stores; some GW stores are so unpleasant as to make leaping into a swimming pool filled with rabid weasels a better proposition than playing there, while others are among the best places to actually play games.

Orkeosaurus
21-01-2009, 02:24
3. Put an army rule in the codex called "THEIR NOT ********** MAMMALS!!!!!1" that states anyone who models breasts onto the models forfeits their right to not have their models broken as doing so violates the contract you signed.

5. Dispatch the GW police to WotC 4e design office and erase the person who designed dragonborn
On behalf of Science, I salute you.

Occulto
21-01-2009, 02:54
You have to remember, GW is a business. Red shirts are there to build the hobby and sell product. Now veterans can be a help and a hindrance to those goals. If you get in the way of those goals, then yes the red shirt will, and frankly should, treat you as unwelcome. The good veteran is someone who gives painting tips, is patient with new players, is willing to play games with newer players, and is happy to chat up any aspect of the hobby. This kind of veteran is especially helpful at cracking the parent problem as they can come from an unbiased prospective. Parents are often worried that the red shirt is simply trying to take their money and a good veteran can show how rewarding the hobby can be. These kinds of veterans are absolutely wonderful to keep around and I always did everything I could to make them happy. Where do you think the rumors for this very site sometimes come from? That's a red shirt or manager keeping their veterans happy. This trend is very much alive and well at the GW stores around me.

Then you have the bad veterans. These are the guys that sit around feeling entitled to table space even when they bring 40k on a LOTR night. They openly and often trash other GW games (LOTR being the most common), trash the company, and trash models (almost always the new ones). They play only to win and revel in absolutely slaughtering other players, especially newbies. Their army is made to win, with no attention paid to character or paint job. They also interrupt other people's games to trash someone's choice of unit or style of play or to argue some inane rule that doesn't make a bit of difference to what is actually happening on the table. Note that how much you spend is not a factor in how good a veteran you are. Some of the worst veterans are those that drop tons of cash. They feel that because they buy so much they are entitled to do whatever they want.

Obviously we veterans do not all fall into a perfect good or bad category. We have both good and bad habits. I for one tell people that I don't like 40k. Nor am I discrediting the horror stories others have related here and placing the blame squarely on veterans. There are good and bad GW employees just as there are good and bad veterans. However, ask yourself how you behave in a GW store. Are you willing to play games with a newer player and have the patience to genuinely help them learn more about the game? Do you argue rules in games that you have no part in (I know i do)? Do you complain about the company right in front of a parent? Now I'm not saying you have to be constantly peddling GW product, but at least try not to make the red shirt's life harder. You may be pleasantly surprised at how they start to treat you.

Well said.

Maine
23-01-2009, 20:23
3) Price rises based on "metal and oil prices" (or words to that effect). Don't suppose we will see the price of models lower now that they have halved or more (especially for blood knights and specialist miniatures - Leman Russ company in epic for £30. Whatever:mad:

Prices went down, but now the pound is a lot weaker - 30% weaker than it was 6 months ago - so it costs them more to buy imported materials.

On the flip side, that means I can buy Forgeworld variant Leman Russes for about the same price as a regular Leman Russ, excluding shipping (which isnt too much more than local sales tax is for me anyways here in Los Angeles, and if I and my club order enough, shipping is free).

Hrafn
23-01-2009, 21:20
As a former employee (4 or so years back) I can tell you that Veterans can be a pain in the ass. Now I'm not saying this goes for all GW stores, but the stores where I worked did not force veterans out or deny them table space for no good reason. If you came on fantasy night and wanted to play 40k and the tables were full, then yes a fantasy player had dibs. That didn't mean you had to stop playing a game if you had already started, and definitely didn't mean you weren't allowed to play at all even if all the tables were empty. I personally know all and have worked with all the managers of the stores around me (Arundel Mills, Glen Burnie Bunker, and Annapolis, all of which are in Maryland, USA). They have the same philosophy now as they did when I worked with them. Anyways, I digress.

You have to remember, GW is a business. Red shirts are there to build the hobby and sell product. Now veterans can be a help and a hindrance to those goals. If you get in the way of those goals, then yes the red shirt will, and frankly should, treat you as unwelcome. The good veteran is someone who gives painting tips, is patient with new players, is willing to play games with newer players, and is happy to chat up any aspect of the hobby. This kind of veteran is especially helpful at cracking the parent problem as they can come from an unbiased prospective. Parents are often worried that the red shirt is simply trying to take their money and a good veteran can show how rewarding the hobby can be. These kinds of veterans are absolutely wonderful to keep around and I always did everything I could to make them happy. Where do you think the rumors for this very site sometimes come from? That's a red shirt or manager keeping their veterans happy. This trend is very much alive and well at the GW stores around me.

Then you have the bad veterans. These are the guys that sit around feeling entitled to table space even when they bring 40k on a LOTR night. They openly and often trash other GW games (LOTR being the most common), trash the company, and trash models (almost always the new ones). They play only to win and revel in absolutely slaughtering other players, especially newbies. Their army is made to win, with no attention paid to character or paint job. They also interrupt other people's games to trash someone's choice of unit or style of play or to argue some inane rule that doesn't make a bit of difference to what is actually happening on the table. Note that how much you spend is not a factor in how good a veteran you are. Some of the worst veterans are those that drop tons of cash. They feel that because they buy so much they are entitled to do whatever they want.

Obviously we veterans do not all fall into a perfect good or bad category. We have both good and bad habits. I for one tell people that I don't like 40k. Nor am I discrediting the horror stories others have related here and placing the blame squarely on veterans. There are good and bad GW employees just as there are good and bad veterans. However, ask yourself how you behave in a GW store. Are you willing to play games with a newer player and have the patience to genuinely help them learn more about the game? Do you argue rules in games that you have no part in (I know i do)? Do you complain about the company right in front of a parent? Now I'm not saying you have to be constantly peddling GW product, but at least try not to make the red shirt's life harder. You may be pleasantly surprised at how they start to treat you.

Kudos to you, sir. An exceptionally balanced and well thought out post :)

Warboss Antoni
23-01-2009, 21:27
No point in ranting about prices.
GW will charge what the customer will be willing to pay.
Now, you may say, "Lucrative! $90 for 5 metal knights?". But Warseer/serious hobbyists/ smart people are the minority. Now start going to a GW. Look at how many people they hook into buying stuff like that, with explanations on the price being, "High Quality! High Production Costs!".
But it's all bull.
Plastic runs in almost total profit once you buy back the $1,000,000 production/mold costs ( in a buisness the scale of GW, thats not that bad... ).
Metal is pretty cheap, but you have to replace molds more often.
So, it doesn't cost much to produce models ( unless you get a plastic model flop, but I'd assume thats really rare. )
Printing is negilable. Barely bumps up the cost.
GW pushes the prices to the limit. They always will, too. They're a *********** corporation. You're trying to beg a corporation to lower prices for some needy hobbyists? They'll spit in your face and raise em a bit more.
There is no point in ranting about GW prices.
It doesn't work.
It is a rip, but you ain't gonna change that. Lots of things are rips these days. Just turns out GW is one of the worse ones today, especially because theyre taking advantage of a hobby market where people are used to lower prices, more garage style companies, not a corporation.
Now, the reason people still play is because it is worth it somewhat, in the long run. With discounts, etc., being cheap. Unless you have the money to spend.
Where else are you going to find a wargame, where you can walk in and play? I know hobby shops might have open gaming nights for other games, but those are few and far bewteen, and pretty small too. With GW, you can walk into a major hobby store or GW, and find a game. You don't have to risk it with a little group of friends, if you guys don't want to throw cash away on a game only you will play, and might not even like.
Theres a big social aspect to GW.
But that doesn't change it's a physical rip off. You can't change prices, rules, model design, anything. GW is a corporation. They're not listening to you. Theyre listening to shareholders. We just have to live with it.

Crazy Harborc
24-01-2009, 01:38
There is a fair sized wargaming community in this area. They have a club. Very few of them (really likely NONE) play as much as two games of any GW rules systems in a year. It's the same in many companies

Before GW wargamers had been playing wargames for at least 125 years as a hobby. The hobby of wargaming is not dependent on GW. Games Workshop is dependent on it's customers. If (not likely IMHO) GW crashes and burns, the hobby of wargaming will survive.

That said......most of the people on this forum are here because it's known as a GW friendly forum. Again, most of the members learned what they know about wargaming from GW's various rules and from other young gamers. The people here and the (according to GW) 750,000 regular customers/GW's players are a small part of the total that are wargamers world wide.

According to various articles about hobbies in trade magazines there are at least 3 million wargamers (the ones who play with toy soldiers ;))

The problems GW has now are caused in all likelihood by a drop in the number of newbies who have relatives who can afford the latest prices GW is charging.

Warboss Antoni
24-01-2009, 05:11
Exactly. GW will keep raising the prices and one day theyre just gonna flop.
I think if any gaming company made a store like GW has, with better prices etc., that will be the end of GW.

Reinholt
24-01-2009, 17:38
Exactly. GW will keep raising the prices and one day theyre just gonna flop.
I think if any gaming company made a store like GW has, with better prices etc., that will be the end of GW.

I disagree completely; if any company did that, they'd have similar prices to GW.

People talk about things like material costs and mold costs, but fail to account for the massive amount of fixed costs, rents, expenses, labor, and what not that goes into running a retail chain.

GW is essentially a hybrid production company / retail chain.

You could be a retail chain that does not produce your own products, and sell the products of other people for less money, but your profit margin is thin and the retail space is overpopulated.

You could be a production company with no retail arm, and have lower prices but also dramatically lower market penetration and gaming base as a result (this sounds like the profile of a lot of the independent companies trying to compete with GW, doesn't it?).

But if you want to have both the production side and the retail base to popularize your product, you have to accept that the retail side will produce significant costs, which means one of two things:

1 - Run at the price of producer-only models, and take a loss every quarter until you go out of business.

2 - Have higher prices.

This is a very basic business model decision. Could GW improve their cost structure and lower prices? Easily. Could they streamline production and tighten up some of their methods and lower prices? Easily.

Would this allow them to approach the prices that could be offered by a strongly managed production-only no retail firm? No.

So there is a limit to what they can do; they should do it, and I do think their prices are too high currently and also structured poorly (they need to find a way to lower the barriers to entry). However, arguing their prices are too high because they consciously are trying to gouge customers (no business has succeeded by attempting to rape and pillage ruthlessly, because competition will always destroy companies that customers hate) or solely because of production costs ignores a huge part of the picture.

Tyron
24-01-2009, 17:54
"However, arguing their prices are too high because they consciously are trying to gouge customers (no business has succeeded by attempting to rape and pillage ruthlessly, because competition will always destroy companies that customers hate)"

Problem here though is GW have no other major competition to compete with.

Reinholt
24-01-2009, 18:06
Ah, but if the business were so fantastically profitable, don't you think people would pile in to steal their market share? Aren't there companies trying to do this anyways? Haven't people repeatedly pointed out GW does compete with all kinds of other entertainment, like PC / Console games, RPGs, and board games?

I mean, look at their financial results for the past 5 years! They could have been a hell of a lot better. If they really had pricing power, no competition, and could gouge customers who would still come back, their numbers would look much better.

Warboss Antoni
24-01-2009, 19:21
The store do cost money, but they only serve as a way to sell more models. If GW was losing anything with a store, they'd close it. It costs money, but makes much, much more.
GW has the stores because they have the money to do it. They have no competition so they can do whatever they want price wise. Nobody is going to (insert wargame maker's store ) because they have lower prices/better game, etc. GW introduce a humungous amount of people to the wargaming hobby, and they get their money first because they are the only hobby company owned store. The stores are their to promote and sell, not really "serve the hobbyist", although they do, but it's not the main reason.
And my statement about another company making a store wasn't really serious. I doubt any other company could make the huge amount of money to open a chain, and then upkeep it.

Lewis
24-01-2009, 19:33
I've been thinking about this question and the answer is yes they could. They could stop giving away all the rules for the veteran orientated Specialist Games for free for starters. I advise alientated veterans to go and print out all the free stuff aimed at you on the GW website and put it in a big pile, and then go and print out all the free stuff aimed at twelve year olds and see which is bigger and whether you still feel like you're taking a ramming.

Reinholt
25-01-2009, 04:00
The store do cost money, but they only serve as a way to sell more models. If GW was losing anything with a store, they'd close it. It costs money, but makes much, much more.

I'm sorry, but the highlighted statement is the key here; they are closing stores. GW is paring back their retail operations because they aren't terribly profitable in many of the locations they were placed in, especially in the US and continental Europe.

If you look at their financial statements and check the ROI for the company, it's not abnormally high (certainly nothing compared to the last few years of Google, say), so the claim that they are making "much, much more" is just false. They make a profit, but hardly a huge one.

Let me put it this way - I don't own any of their stock, and I certainly have enough capital in my portfolio to buy some if I wanted it, so whatever they are selling, I'm not buying as an investor.


GW has the stores because they have the money to do it. They have no competition so they can do whatever they want price wise. Nobody is going to (insert wargame maker's store ) because they have lower prices/better game, etc. GW introduce a humungous amount of people to the wargaming hobby, and they get their money first because they are the only hobby company owned store.

Also false.

Basic economics demonstrates that even monopolies cannot charge "whatever they want". If not, why isn't GW charging 500 dollars or pounds for every model? Even if zero other companies made board games or miniatures, they would still be competing against every other form of entertainment out there; GW likes to deny it themselves, but it is true that virtually all forms of entertainment compete against all other forms (I am sure there are people who have had to decide between an army / expanding an army vs. an XBox, for instance, and have picked the XBox... that is competition for GW, like it or not).

With that said, there are companies like Rackham and Privateer Press that take the form of smaller web-based non-retail competitors who, while having some market share, don't really dominate the market in the way GW does because they aren't spending on a retail operation.

So, in short, I'm sorry if you feel like GW is screwing you or is overpriced; if you do, just stop buying their stuff and go do something else. The reality is they aren't at all abnormal for a business, and they certainly aren't gouging huge profits out of their customers (or, if they are, why have they lost so much money lately?). Could the business be run better? Yes. But does that mean they are abusing customers or behaving in an unfair fashion? No.

Nobody at GW makes huge money (even their CEO's have not been highly paid by executive standards). The one thing that rings false for me with all these claims of excessive pricing is that GW should be making a hell of a lot more money than they are if that's true...

I'll stop arguing the point here, but the bottom line for the company is this:

- Their production could be more efficient
- Their corporate level jobs and structure either needs to be shrunk or needs to produce more bang for the buck
- Their retail operation has high fixed costs, but produces a marketing value such that they do, in fact, run stores at a loss because they believe it leads to things like online sales and greater long-term profits
- Their total return on equity and return on invested capital are not insanely high by market standards

Fin.