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VC Doke
01-12-2008, 20:36
Hello,

Here's my interpretation of a unit of HE Swordmasters with ASF and Great Weapons charging my ghouls. The thing was that I used my bound spell on my corpse cart to give all undead units withing 6" ASF the turn before (the ability lasts a full game round).

The Always Strikes First rule states that when you have two units that ASF then you resolve the order of combat with initiative. Even though the HE Swordmasters charged, they can't get ASF twice! They just have the rule whether they charge or not.
So it is resolved in the order of my ghouls attacking first with I 3, and the Swordmasters going last because they have great weapons, not first because they charge.

Needless to say it was a big deal, my 5 wide ghouls got charged, went first and killed 6 Swordmasters, also 5 wide, before their champion got to strike. I handily won combat.

Thoughts on this matter?

chivalrous
01-12-2008, 20:49
Umm, I think you're thinking in too many circles here.

It isn't important who charges.

Both units have ASF.
Great weapon's 'Strikes Last' is overruled by ASF and completely ignored.
Swordmasters have Initiative 5.
Ghouls have Initiative 3.
Highest initiative goes first.
ergo Swordmasters go first.

Atrahasis
01-12-2008, 20:49
In combats with ASF vs ASF, everything except Initiative is ignored, so the Swordmasters would still go first, as they have higher I.

WusteGeist
02-12-2008, 01:46
Actually Atrahasis and chivalrous both have it WRONG. Look at the High elf errata before making such silly comments BOTH of you. The errata uses the example of a elf with great weapon vs some one else with a hand weapon, both have ASF, the elf strikes last the other person first for the reason of great weapon vs hand weapon. According to GW's errata the logic is thus.
Both have ASF
compare type of weapons, great weapon last hand weapon first
both same type of weapon compare INV value higher one goes first
IF all above is exactly the same then roll dice for who goes first.

This type of silly not thought out or even researched crap is why I hate posting here, but you two had to go and reply with out even being bothered to look at the errata. If you cant get it right don't even try you just make it worse.

VC Doke
02-12-2008, 02:08
Actually those two were right.

Here's the offical FAQ from the warhammer website:

This is a PDF:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1540038_WH_HighElves_Oct_2008.pdf

Nurgling Chieftain
02-12-2008, 02:30
If you cant get it right don't even try you just make it worse.Ah, the self-righteousness of the - shall we say, insufficiently correct - never ceases to amuse me. :cool:

BEEGfrog
02-12-2008, 02:38
Ah yes, the FAQ they changed and broke even worse...

Nicha11
02-12-2008, 03:16
Actually Atrahasis and chivalrous both have it WRONG. Look at the High elf errata before making such silly comments BOTH of you. The errata uses the example of a elf with great weapon vs some one else with a hand weapon, both have ASF, the elf strikes last the other person first for the reason of great weapon vs hand weapon. According to GW's errata the logic is thus.
Both have ASF
compare type of weapons, great weapon last hand weapon first
both same type of weapon compare INV value higher one goes first
IF all above is exactly the same then roll dice for who goes first.

This type of silly not thought out or even researched crap is why I hate posting here, but you two had to go and reply with out even being bothered to look at the errata. If you cant get it right don't even try you just make it worse.


Ummm... you're wrong,:cool: great weapons have no effect on I if both sides have ASF.

And dude lighten up:cool: insulting other people who are just trying to help won't make you any friends (maybe thats why you hate posting here)

PARTYCHICORITA
02-12-2008, 03:52
Actually Atrahasis and chivalrous both have it WRONG. Look at the High elf errata before making such silly comments BOTH of you. The errata uses the example of a elf with great weapon vs some one else with a hand weapon, both have ASF, the elf strikes last the other person first for the reason of great weapon vs hand weapon. According to GW's errata the logic is thus.
Both have ASF
compare type of weapons, great weapon last hand weapon first
both same type of weapon compare INV value higher one goes first
IF all above is exactly the same then roll dice for who goes first.

This type of silly not thought out or even researched crap is why I hate posting here, but you two had to go and reply with out even being bothered to look at the errata. If you cant get it right don't even try you just make it worse.

Isn't it ironic that after all that unnecesary bashing you were the wrong one? As it has been said the HE FAQ leaves it very clear; if both sides have ASF charging, GW, etc are ignore, combat goes on I order.

Condottiere
02-12-2008, 03:58
And remember when the latest revision was issued, after Dark Elves 7th. Assassins would be dead if ASF did not follow initiative order.

theunwantedbeing
02-12-2008, 04:07
Well not exactly, they'de be dead if GW had opted to choose ASF + charging to go before ASF + not charging.
As they would then never go before anything with ASF that charged them.

Thankfully this wasnt the case and rather than enforce a single step lower down the order than ASF towards who goes first, they kept in keeping with the original wording of the rule and just used initiutive as the deciding factor as to who goes first in ASF vs ASF situations.

It does of course greatly benefit anyone with ASF and a great weapon though.

Gork or Possibly Mork
02-12-2008, 04:49
This type of silly not thought out or even researched crap is why I hate posting here, but you two had to go and reply with out even being bothered to look at the errata.

LMAO! The Irony it's killing me with laughter. Lifes too short man so chill. Even if they were wrong ( which they weren't ) they were trying to help.

Lord Dan
02-12-2008, 05:03
Look at the High elf errata before making such silly comments BOTH of you.

I don't think I really need to contribute much here, as you've already provided both an ironic punch line and some sound advice.

Tizz
02-12-2008, 07:55
Whoa whoa whoa now, Swordmasters are Initiative 5, let's not get too excited about them! :p

Lordsaradain
02-12-2008, 08:20
Yeah, give your Cold One Knights ASF banner and you can charge Swordmasters without having to worry. (COK's are I6)

chivalrous
02-12-2008, 08:56
Whoa whoa whoa now, Swordmasters are Initiative 5, let's not get too excited about them! :p

oh bugger!
I knew I should have, y'know, done some of that research crap before I went ahead and posted, who knows what kind of dodgy misinformation I could be spreading :evilgrin:

Cheers for the correction Tizz, my original comment has been updated :D

Atrahasis
02-12-2008, 10:05
This type of silly not thought out or even researched crap is why I hate posting here,We hate you posting here too. Do everyone a favour :)

Grimzilla
02-12-2008, 11:14
Come on...he made a mistake. Dont be like that.

Atrahasis
02-12-2008, 11:19
Making a mistake is fine.

Making a mistake accompanied by a tirade of abuse against those he thought were wrong, not so forgivable.

VC Doke
02-12-2008, 11:41
WusteGeist was wrong, but maybe he was citing an older FAQ. Let's let bygones be bygones.

His attitude aside, his logic was like minded we my own. Either viewpoint on every issue in Warhammer has some logic behind it. What I should have done in the game, instead of insisting that I was correct, was to roll a d6 with my opponent. Without an FAQ present its hard to know who is 100% right. I think I'll be bringing my laptop more to battles.

Having read this, I feel that everyone learned a lesson here.

Gethostar
02-12-2008, 19:33
Very easy your Ghouls should striked last. The Sword Masters have GW but they still would strike first if they charged...

In my opinion the ASF is very clear, work it in Initiative order. And then the SM would be the unit that should striked first.

SuperBeast
03-12-2008, 01:25
I'm just sad that the design studio have started taking their own advice - rolling a D6 to see who is correct - to write official errata.

It's official, and as I play my games 'vanilla', that's how I'll have to play them.

Doesn't make it any less ludicrous, though. :(

Bac5665
03-12-2008, 02:12
There are two valid FAQ out there, one for the U.S. and one for U.K. They say different things.

Lord Dan
03-12-2008, 02:54
Having read this, I feel that everyone learned a lesson here.

Lessons learned? Nonsense! Let the beatings commence!!

Cronanius
03-12-2008, 15:21
*sigh* look what I started. Well, from now on, I'll just use this order:
1. ASF
2. Initiative
3. Dice roll <or, in games with my friends, attack at the same time, because we play too much 40K!>
Great Weapon and Charge characteristics are negated.

chivalrous
04-12-2008, 15:37
There are two valid FAQ out there, one for the U.S. and one for U.K. They say different things.

Looking at the U.S. site, the FAQ available there is the same one available on the U.K. site. I suppose that's one good thing you can say about the standardisation of the GW sites.
Looking at the hyperlinks, the URL's for all the FAQ's are exactly the same.

etancross
04-12-2008, 16:58
Actually Atrahasis and chivalrous both have it WRONG. Look at the High elf errata before making such silly comments BOTH of you. The errata uses the example of a elf with great weapon vs some one else with a hand weapon, both have ASF, the elf strikes last the other person first for the reason of great weapon vs hand weapon. According to GW's errata the logic is thus.
Both have ASF
compare type of weapons, great weapon last hand weapon first
both same type of weapon compare INV value higher one goes first
IF all above is exactly the same then roll dice for who goes first.

This type of silly not thought out or even researched crap is why I hate posting here, but you two had to go and reply with out even being bothered to look at the errata. If you cant get it right don't even try you just make it worse.


WOW! Congrats on not only being a jerk, but completly hosing yourself.... i hope you feel as bad as you made yourself look.

Its d!ck comments like thats that make people afraid to ask questions in the forums and this is not only a valid question, its something ive seen come up in games several times.

Caine Mangakahia
04-12-2008, 19:38
Look, this is just a case of shoddy GW errata strikes again.We had this issue in my club too.
Originally the errata stated that the Swordmasters would have to strike last in the case of GW & ASF vs other ASF. The UK site later changed the errata so that Initiative took precidence, but it took a little while for the other sites to change thus loads of confusion ensued.
All in all they should have left it as Swordmasters strike last (but I play undead so I may be biased).

Condottiere
04-12-2008, 19:50
I agree, the FAQ is screwed up. New versions should be clearly labeled like computer program updates. Firefox 3.0.1 is different from version 3.0.4.

DeathlessDraich
04-12-2008, 20:04
Hasn't the old FAQ been cancelled and is not available online? - An errata for the errata!

Condottiere
04-12-2008, 20:19
GW doesn't send out notices over the internet in the rare event that they have updates. I usually keep a set of armies I'm interested in for offline viewing.

Gazak Blacktoof
04-12-2008, 23:00
They could run an RSS feed off the FAQ page so that way people could keep upto date and they'd be able to add a section of text, perhaps 2 or 3 sentences, to the page on the feed detailing what's in the updated FAQ.


As an example

++++++++++++

High Elf FAQ 7.2

In this lastest update we've altered our response regarding the way "always strikes first" works.

Nuada
04-12-2008, 23:17
It's a pity it doesn't take Great Weapons into account though, my whole O&G would be so good when casting the Waaagh! v's SM, WLions, PGuard :) maybe that's why they have it that way. Fair enough