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RedStompa
02-12-2008, 22:13
or other fluff.

Mine's from Dark Apostle (mild spoilers)






"[CSM] terminator roared as he smashed his way towards the Magos plasma pierced the reinforced plating of his blessed terminator armor and bolt rounds tore through his chest plate, he unleashed the roaring fury of his heavy flamer and promethium engulfed the Magos, hiding him from view as the inferno dissipated, [CSM TERMINATOR] could see that the flames has washed harmlessly over a bubble of protective energy, leaving the cursed Mechanicus Priest unscathed. He stepped within the confines of the shield, and swung his chain fist in a murderous arc, intend on smashing the Magos apart with the force of the blow. The blow never landed as one of the servo arms hovering over the Magos halting it mid swing. The servo arm over his other shoulder grabbed his other arm, and he felt his blessed terminator armor crack beneath the immense pressure that the whining arms exerted . The arms pulled out to each side sharply and both of [CSM Terminator's] arms were ripped form his body,spraying blood out in both directions. He stared dumbly down at his armless torso and was cut in half by the Mago's swinging power halberd, the cogged blade hacking through his midsection . He fell to the metal lattice floor.

He failed his Coryphaus, failed his legion, and only damnation awaited him. "

Orkeosaurus
02-12-2008, 22:20
Oh man. That is bad.
He blocked a chainfist with his servo-harness? And tore off the arms of someone wearing terminator armor? What?

RedStompa
02-12-2008, 22:24
Oh man. That is bad.
He blocked a chainfist with his servo-harness? And tore off the arms of someone wearing terminator armor? What?



Well, it was a Magos.

I really don't know if it was a chain fist, a power fist, or a power claw, as the author uses them all interchangeably, and pretty liberally too. He had also gunned down 4 other chaos marines after they left something eith 4 of his built in guns.

djinn8
02-12-2008, 22:30
Two I can think of a few in Deamon World (spoilers follow) Highlight to read.


When the Dreadnought commander of the Violator Chapter is fighting the Khorn Deamon Prince, takes a beating and decides to overload his power cell to take the deamon with him - only for the deamon prince to pull his power cell out his body, give it a curiouse once over, then throw it over his shoulder.

Or when an Obliterator opens up on the rogue chaos champion with everything he has at point blank range and misses totally.

Perhaps the story about the slannesh cultist who throws himself manicly into combat with the promise of glorious sensation as he is ripped apart by bullets, only to realise that there's nothing glorious about it at all - in fact it's just damn painful and their's nothing to look faroward to once the pain ends.

EDIT: One more from Deamonworld (spoiler - highlight to read)

The barbarian king who has everything go wrong for him throughout the book, finally get his hands on the ultimate sword with which he can exact his revenge, only to realise he's been tricked and the sword was the key that was keeping the whole planet from blowing up... sucks to be him

Fail!

RedStompa
02-12-2008, 22:50
So the violators are chaos? or imperium?

Firaxin
02-12-2008, 22:51
There was a short story once about a daemon prince of tzeentch who controlled an entire world in the eye of terror. Skipping most of the plot, the world suddenly disintegrates and he finds himself to actually be a little ~10 year old boy, sobbing in the dirt in front of a chaos sorcerer who wanted him to know what his life would have been like if he had joined chaos.

Then the sorcerer kills him.

So the boy had basically lived several hundred successful years in but a moment, thinking it was truth, and died knowing it was all lies.

Gdolkin
02-12-2008, 23:02
There was a short story once about a daemon prince of tzeentch who controlled an entire world in the eye of terror. Skipping most of the plot, the world suddenly disintegrates and he finds himself to actually be a little ~10 year old boy, sobbing in the dirt in front of a chaos sorcerer who wanted him to know what his life would have been like if he had joined chaos.

Then the sorcerer kills him.

So the boy had basically lived several hundred successful years in but a moment, and died knowing it was all lies.
SPOILER!



That'll be "The Lives of Ferag Lion-Wolf" from Dark Imperium, IIRC. Great story, very RT-stylee. One thing though, he ain't a little boy, he's a wretch and a failure of a Tzeentch cultist who is punished before being spawned by a delusional vision of himself as a great and terrible Chaos Lord etc. and the sting is that he no longer knows which is real.

Firaxin
02-12-2008, 23:11
Eh. I haven't even looked at it in like 9 years. My mind associates wretchs and failures with little children for some reason.
:D

Gdolkin
02-12-2008, 23:29
you were right about sobbing in the dirt though :) it's the helplessness you've recalled, i guess.

PondaNagura
03-12-2008, 00:06
hmm, i was going to mention Kroeger's death from Storm of Iron
killed by his angry wife. no kid, but only a little...

djinn8
03-12-2008, 00:16
So the violators are chaos? or imperium?

They're Slannesh Marines. The books set in the Eye - every character in it's aligned to one chaos god or another.

RedStompa
03-12-2008, 00:29
OHHH, the chapter name makes so much more sense now....

DarkMatter2
03-12-2008, 00:30
There is a scene in Dark Apostle where one of the Imperial Characters kills a CSM, utters some badass one liner in true Imperial style that basically boils down to "The Emperor pwns your face", and then about 5 seconds later the CSM comes back to life and rips his head off.

The CSM get their fair share of badassery. The entire book Dark Apostle (which is to this day my favorite BL books) is a paen to just how badass they are.

People complain when a Chapter of Marines destroy a Craftworld (well, honestly people bitch whenever the Eldar lose period), but no one seems wierded out by the squad of Chaos Marines in that book who take down an Imperator Titan.

RedStompa
03-12-2008, 00:34
There is a scene in Dark Apostle where one of the Imperial Characters kills a CSM, utters some badass one liner in true Imperial style that basically boils down to "The Emperor pwns your face", and then about 5 seconds later the CSM comes back to life and rips his head off.

The CSM get their fair share of badassery. The entire book Dark Apostle (which is to this day my favorite BL books) is a paen to just how badass they are.

People complain when a Chapter of Marines destroy a Craftworld (well, honestly people bitch whenever the Eldar lose period), but no one seems wierded out by the squad of Chaos Marines in that book who take down an Imperator Titan.


Yeah I remember that too, and I was confused, its kinda ridiculous to think that a titan can get destroyed by a pretty simple tactic...


The IG general that shot the CSM in the head fair and square. The Stupid CSM had to be stupid and cheat with his (probably gay) slanesshi daemon and ripped his heart out.

Toramino
03-12-2008, 02:20
hmm, i was going to mention Kroeger's death from Storm of Iron
killed by his angry wife. no kid, but only a little...

lol I was going to post this, but to be fair she was posessed by a very powerfull khornate demon when she killed him.

Iracundus
03-12-2008, 03:14
People complain when a Chapter of Marines destroy a Craftworld (well, honestly people bitch whenever the Eldar lose period), but no one seems wierded out by the squad of Chaos Marines in that book who take down an Imperator Titan.

Speak for yourself. That was the scene I pointed out in the other thread on Dark Apostle that utterly broke suspension of disbelief. I could buy a CSM Terminator being killed by a Tech Priest's servo harness (those arms are supposedly powerfist equivalents in game terms after all), but a tiny group of CSM destroying an Emperor class Titan in time to save their comrades is ludicrous.

Now in the old Epic rules, a squad could board the bastion legs and theoretically destroy the Titan if unopposed for a long time. However the bastion garrisons are more than likely to swamp any single invader. It took a fair number of boarders to survive both the point defense systems' firing and then also have enough numbers to overpower the garrison and destroy the Titan. It also took a decent number of turns (1 turn to damage each leg section, then another turn to destroy it, with something like 2-3 leg sections in a horizontal line needing destruction before the Titan fell).

Taipan
03-12-2008, 09:12
Spoiler!

Er, in 'Dark Apostle' something like 10 CSM Terminators, the 'Anointed' I think they're called, assault the Titan. It's not regular CSM, they're Terminators. Thats why they got past the defensive guns and killed everything before they reached the top of the leg. Having set melta charges up one whole leg (they didn't actually blow it up), they then fought all the way back down (facing off against reinforcements), fell back and blew it up.

The Titan didn't die, it had one leg severed, and then it fell onto it's side, crushing one side of a crevass in the process.


As for the OP,

"[CSM] terminator roared as he smashed his way towards the Magos plasma pierced the reinforced plating of his blessed terminator armor and bolt rounds tore through his chest plate, he unleashed the roaring fury of his heavy flamer and promethium engulfed the Magos, hiding him from view as the inferno dissipated, [CSM TERMINATOR] could see that the flames has washed harmlessly over a bubble of protective energy, leaving the cursed Mechanicus Priest unscathed. He stepped within the confines of the shield, and swung his chain fist in a murderous arc, intend on smashing the Magos apart with the force of the blow. The blow never landed as one of the servo arms hovering over the Magos halting it mid swing. The servo arm over his other shoulder grabbed his other arm, and he felt his blessed terminator armor crack beneath the immense pressure that the whining arms exerted . The arms pulled out to each side sharply and both of [CSM Terminator's] arms were ripped form his body,spraying blood out in both directions. He stared dumbly down at his armless torso and was cut in half by the Mago's swinging power halberd, the cogged blade hacking through his midsection . He fell to the metal lattice floor.

He failed his Coryphaus, failed his legion, and only damnation awaited him. "

Wasn't just the Magos, he had about 4-5 servitors helping shoot that Terminator.

Also most of the Terminators got shot to hell when they tried to land via Thunderhawk onto the Ad Mech Ordinatus (or whatever it was the Magos was on). The chainfist dude (forget his name) is the only one to survive the crash, he then gets shot while charging the Magos. Servo-arms are basically as strong as powefists, I have no problem with a servo-arm halting a chainfist. Presumably the Magos grabbed his wrist and turned it away. A servo-arm, by the same token, can punch through Terminator armour no problems.

Honestly guys, as others have said, this is a lone moment of Imperial triumph (there are a few others), in an entire novel littered with 'Imperials suck, CSM win'. In the initial assault, the Word Bearers completely annhilate the PDF. When reinforcements show up, the CSM's hold off superior numbers of infantry and tanks for something close to a week. And it gets pretty 'down to the wire' towards the end, a few more hours of battle and the CSM could've been overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

Iracundus
03-12-2008, 10:57
Spoiler!
The Titan didn't die, it had one leg severed, and then it fell onto it's side, crushing one side of a crevass in the process.


Under all versions of Epic, severing a Titan's leg caused it to fall and was treated as a kill.

The problem is that a mere 10 Terminators or 2 old Epic squads of Terminators would have had difficulty in 1) surviving the storm of close range point defense fire from the Titan and the Titan garrison 2) overwhelming the garrison and then also sitting there unopposed in the bastions long enough to first damage then destroy enough sections to cause collapse. Actually trying to do such a feat in an Epic game required far more manpower to pull off.

The only Titans that were an exception to this were the Tyranid Bio-Titans, who could still move so long as 2 of their 4 legs were intact.

Feor
03-12-2008, 11:10
I'd put one of the most embarrassing CSM deaths as the World Eater in the Caiphas Cain novels who's out-dueled so badly by a Commisar (Cain) that he doesn't even notice the guy with the Meltagun sneak up behind him.

Koryphaus
03-12-2008, 11:11
Surely there were more than 10 of the Terminators? I don't have my copy with me, but there were. I mean, the Anointed numbered more than 200, surely the Coryphaus took more with him than 10.

Also remember - Terminator armour is specifically designed for close, confined spaces. The stairways of the Titan legs are the perfect environment for the armour to function to its maximum potential. I felt that that sequence was quite reasonable actually.

And to those comparing fluff to rules, come on. Really.

zeep
03-12-2008, 13:22
Mine has to be the biggest failure in all of 40k, that icon of perpetual mediocracy, Horus.

Campaigns for the emperor... fails. Kills his own troops pointlessly, shows the tactical skill of a first year cadet. Is deluded by the warp, fails in the assault on terra, and even at the last minute decides chaos was wrong. This twit cant see anything through. Every time GW does another I love you tribute to the heresy I have to roll my eyes. This guy doesn't even have the class to make it in a greek tragedy.

BrotherAtrox
03-12-2008, 14:13
Mine has to be the biggest failure in all of 40k, that icon of perpetual mediocracy, Horus.

Campaigns for the emperor... fails. Kills his own troops pointlessly, shows the tactical skill of a first year cadet. Is deluded by the warp, fails in the assault on terra, and even at the last minute decides chaos was wrong. This twit cant see anything through. Every time GW does another I love you tribute to the heresy I have to roll my eyes. This guy doesn't even have the class to make it in a greek tragedy.

What that guy said ^.

Chaos Marines have been nothing but one big failure. Heresy? Failure. THIRTEEN individual Black Crusades? Failures. They're confined to their little "Eye of Terror" up North and haven't done anything productive for ten millenia. Good job guys.

Iracundus
03-12-2008, 14:52
THIRTEEN individual Black Crusades? Failures. They're confined to their little "Eye of Terror" up North and haven't done anything productive for ten millenia. Good job guys.

WRONG. The Thirteenth Black Crusade was declared a Chaos victory by GW. No amount of Imperial player denial and misinformation for the 6 or so years since the Eye of Terror campaign is going to change the fact they LOST the campaign to Chaos. It may not have been a huge decisive victory but Chaos holds over half of Cadia and has a significant realspace foothold outside the Eye of Terror, with Typhus having his own newly formed daemon world. Saying Chaos lost the 13th Crusade is like saying the US lost World War II. It is the complete opposite of what the actual result was.

We seem to be going through this at the rate of at least 2 posts a month of this. Somehow people seem to have no problems getting their facts straight with the Ichar IV campaign or Medusa V campaign results yet when it comes to the Eye of Terror campaign people seem to develop sudden dyslexia and read "Chaos victory" as "Imperial victory" for some reason.

Crazy Tom
03-12-2008, 15:23
I think the thousands of CSMs that get toasted by a underground river of molten metal in Dead Sky, Black Sun would have to take the win here. I mean, they tunnel for days to breach the defences of the Chaos citadel they're assaulting... only to burst into some kind of trap prepared for them by Honsou. No shots fired, no enemy deaths - just thousands of CSMs dying like fish dropped into a barrel of boiling water.

Koryphaus
04-12-2008, 07:51
Mine has to be the biggest failure in all of 40k, that icon of perpetual mediocracy, Horus.

Campaigns for the emperor... fails. Kills his own troops pointlessly, shows the tactical skill of a first year cadet. Is deluded by the warp, fails in the assault on terra, and even at the last minute decides chaos was wrong. This twit cant see anything through. Every time GW does another I love you tribute to the heresy I have to roll my eyes. This guy doesn't even have the class to make it in a greek tragedy.

Huh? If Horus hadn't been so good he wouldn't have been the Warmaster. He wouldn't have been honoured by the Emperor.

Where are you getting this from?


What that guy said ^.

Chaos Marines have been nothing but one big failure. Heresy? Failure. THIRTEEN individual Black Crusades? Failures. They're confined to their little "Eye of Terror" up North and haven't done anything productive for ten millenia. Good job guys.

For starters, they weren't all failures. IIRC, the 5th Crusade gained Abaddon Drach'Nyen. The 12th Crusade was the Gothis War, and Abaddon gained 2 Blackstone Fortresses. The 13th was a Chaos victory as well.

Almost every single Crusade achieved its purpose, which is primarily to damage Imperial Morale, damage the defences of the Cadian Gate and weaken Imperial hold on the surrounding sectors, as well as reduce overall security as the Imperium rushes forces to the region.

The only one which could be seen as a failure IMO is the 1st, but even that resulted in the death of Rogal Dorn, and subsequently the massive logistical operation necessary to fortify the Cadian Gate, using resources which were undoubtedly required elsewhere.


Saying Chaos lost the 13th Crusade is like saying the Allies lost World War II.

Fixed that up for you ;)

Firaxin
04-12-2008, 15:42
Dorn's not dead, not yet. ;)

He just has a bionic hand.

olmsted
04-12-2008, 19:14
actually even though chaos won it was declared null and void due to the massive amount of cheating during the caimpaign from all the chaos players

Orkeosaurus
04-12-2008, 20:20
Well, a mechanicus magos and a retinue of servitors isn't that bad.
It's still kind of dodgy that he blocked a chainfist though, unless this guy's servo harness made him into some sort of penitent engine.

Chaos lost the 13th crusade. They won the campaign, but GW made them fail to do anything significant anyway. They don't even control all of Cadia yet, do they? Isn't it still an ongoing warzone or something?

dookie
04-12-2008, 20:35
Hehe, are we all forgetting how easy Gaunts Ghosts find it to take down CSM? Mkoll and the Chaos Dread is amazing, but to be honest, its the plants that do the work.

Also, i think its Mkoll again, where he is just simply distracting a chaos lord with idle conversation while a pack of 20 tube charges is ticking down to blow! BAM!

Crafty ghosts....

BrotherAtrox
04-12-2008, 20:47
I don't see how Chaos *won* the 13 Crusade. Can I see a citation of where GW declared it an ACTUAL victory? I was pretty sure it was a stalemate because the Imperial Navy absolutely demolished the Chaos fleets and thus, any gains they made planetside will be for nothing since they can't be resupplied.

RedStompa
04-12-2008, 20:57
And were subsequently bombarded into dust.

I didn't think that chaos controlled half the planet of Cadia, thought it was less. Also, How did chaos players cheat? Who/how did the Imperial player make such a huge blunder again?

max the dog
04-12-2008, 21:04
A Chaos Dreadnought killed by a lasgun and foliage in one of the Gaunts Ghosts books.

olmsted
04-12-2008, 21:23
And were subsequently bombarded into dust.

I didn't think that chaos controlled half the planet of Cadia, thought it was less. Also, How did chaos players cheat? Who/how did the Imperial player make such a huge blunder again?

they had almost just begun using the online system seen in medusa v. although it was easier to make multiply accounts and just spam wins for chaos

Koryphaus
04-12-2008, 21:46
I don't see how Chaos *won* the 13 Crusade. Can I see a citation of where GW declared it an ACTUAL victory? I was pretty sure it was a stalemate because the Imperial Navy absolutely demolished the Chaos fleets and thus, any gains they made planetside will be for nothing since they can't be resupplied.

Au WD 287. Page 92, under the heading: "And The Result Is..."


Victory for Chaos! Not a complete victory, the forces of Order have held the line in many places and Cadia itself still defies the Arch Warmaster Abaddon. But nonetheless over 8 weeks the forces of Disorder have consistently out-fought and out-maneuvered their opponents across the warzones of the Eye of Terror.

Taipan
04-12-2008, 22:26
Under all versions of Epic, severing a Titan's leg caused it to fall and was treated as a kill.

The problem is that a mere 10 Terminators or 2 old Epic squads of Terminators would have had difficulty in 1) surviving the storm of close range point defense fire from the Titan and the Titan garrison 2) overwhelming the garrison and then also sitting there unopposed in the bastions long enough to first damage then destroy enough sections to cause collapse. Actually trying to do such a feat in an Epic game required far more manpower to pull off.

The only Titans that were an exception to this were the Tyranid Bio-Titans, who could still move so long as 2 of their 4 legs were intact.

Dude, it's a Black Library novel. Rules = vague guidelines ;) . Anyway, it didn't fall flat on it's face (which would've killed it), it kinda slumped onto a small mountain and crushed it. However, when they practically destroy the planet later on, it probably fell into the lava flows.
Termies didn't kill it though, just disabled.


I'd put one of the most embarrassing CSM deaths as the World Eater in the Caiphas Cain novels who's out-dueled so badly by a Commisar (Cain) that he doesn't even notice the guy with the Meltagun sneak up behind him.

Again, this is not implausible. Cain is a skilled swordsman, who got lucky. The World Eater was so consumed by the fight with Cain, he ignored all other threats and just focused on smashing the Commisar. Cain simply had to fend him off until Jurgen got the meltagun lined up.


Surely there were more than 10 of the Terminators? I don't have my copy with me, but there were. I mean, the Anointed numbered more than 200, surely the Coryphaus took more with him than 10.

Also remember - Terminator armour is specifically designed for close, confined spaces. The stairways of the Titan legs are the perfect environment for the armour to function to its maximum potential. I felt that that sequence was quite reasonable actually.

And to those comparing fluff to rules, come on. Really.

Well yeah, as we know from later on when they assault the Necron tomb, there is a whole bunch of Anointed. However, when they assault the Emperor-class Titan, it's just Kor Badal and maybe 10 other guys. They have to hide out in specially-prepared collapsed tunnels, going into hibernation to avoid auspex scans of the rock by the Imperial scouts. One of them gets set on fire when his Terminator armour fails, so I think it's just the Korphaus and 9 Anointed that get onto the leg. They don't have the time or the space to send a larger attack force, so they can't use the regular Word Bearers, and 10 Anointed (plus their 2nd in command) is a pretty major commitment.


I think the thousands of CSMs that get toasted by a underground river of molten metal in Dead Sky, Black Sun would have to take the win here. I mean, they tunnel for days to breach the defences of the Chaos citadel they're assaulting... only to burst into some kind of trap prepared for them by Honsou. No shots fired, no enemy deaths - just thousands of CSMs dying like fish dropped into a barrel of boiling water.

It's not thousands of CSM, it's thousands of slaves plus a few Astartes guards. IIRC its in fact just one Iron Warrior who is overseeing the tunneling, plus 10,000 human slaves. They breach the prepared molten metal trap, and he's at the entrance when it gets breached. He runs but gets melta'd when it flows out. I think it destroys a fair bit of the camp but mostly slaves die, the bulk of the Iron Warriors in the attacking force are assaulted the main gates.


Well, a mechanicus magos and a retinue of servitors isn't that bad.
It's still kind of dodgy that he blocked a chainfist though, unless this guy's servo harness made him into some sort of penitent engine.

Servo-arms are repeatedly mentioned as granting great strength to their wielders across 40k canon. Like I said (I don't have the book in front of me, so this is from memory), the Thunderhawk carrying the Terminators get blown out of the sky, barely managing to crash onto the top deck (pilot lives just long enough). The lone chainfist dude is already pretty shaken up and lucky to live. He then gets shot by about 5-6 servitors with heavy bolters and plasma guns, while assaulting the Magos. Magos I think grabs his wrist when the Word Bearer tries to crush him with the chainfist, and then uses his other servo-arms to rip him apart.


Hehe, are we all forgetting how easy Gaunts Ghosts find it to take down CSM? Mkoll and the Chaos Dread is amazing, but to be honest, its the plants that do the work.

Also, i think its Mkoll again, where he is just simply distracting a chaos lord with idle conversation while a pack of 20 tube charges is ticking down to blow! BAM!

Crafty ghosts....

Sigh....I've heard about this kinda stuff happening in the GG series. Kinda saddening they turn Chaos into one-dimensional bad-guys with the intelligence of 2 year-olds. Oh, and make their 10,000 year-old assault walkers to be blinded by flashlights and tripping over weeds :rolleyes: . I've read his other work, but I haven't touched GG due to hearing this kinda stuff seep out onto the interweb.

At least Cain is modest about his victories, and the author nudges us in the direction of 'he got extremely lucky, plus he's smart under pressure'. Like with the World Eater: he didn't do much except hold the guy off (and was about to lose), before the CSM got melta'd by his aide.

RedStompa
04-12-2008, 22:42
Sigh....I've heard about this kinda stuff happening in the GG series. Kinda saddening they turn Chaos into one-dimensional bad-guys with the intelligence of 2 year-olds. Oh, and make their 10,000 year-old assault walkers to be blinded by flashlights and tripping over weeds :rolleyes: . I've read his other work, but I haven't touched GG due to hearing this kinda stuff seep out onto the interweb.

At least Cain is modest about his victories, and the author nudges us in the direction of 'he got extremely lucky, plus he's smart under pressure'. Like with the World Eater: he didn't do much except hold the guy off (and was about to lose), before the CSM got melta'd by his aide.

Well an important fact that was missing in that battle was that the dread was already blinded- it had been in a fight with SM's and its optics got blasted to hell. Not to mention that he was probably already raving insane, and using his muted senses to find out where mkoll was. All Mkoll really did was overload his lasgun, throw it at the dread, and let the cacti shoot at the hole it left in the dread's face. I would find that perfectly believeable. It's not like it was him vrs a fully active dread.

As for the 1000 chaos marines getting melted, I think this was the case, why would they only have one CSM standing in the tunnel when they were about to breach the defenses? there were thousands.

There would have been more then one CSM guarding that many slaves anyways, in Dark Apostle the slaves always seem to be seeing Word Bearers blundering around in the manner all chaos marines blunder around in a wasteland, not just one.

Toramino
04-12-2008, 23:26
its pretty unlikey that ''thousands'' of Iron Warriors got melted in the tunnels, considering that the Legion only had 12K marines before the heresy. Its much more plausable that the thousands of men mentioned are the same soldiers used by the IW as meatshields to soak up fire and clog defences in storm of iron

Lord Cook
04-12-2008, 23:37
A Chaos Dreadnought killed by a lasgun and foliage in one of the Gaunts Ghosts books.

A blinded, heavily damaged Chaos Dreadnought killed by incredibly venomous flying barbs you mean? I suppose you could argue that a Marine's immune system should be enough to shrug off most toxins, but even so...


I've read his other work, but I haven't touched GG due to hearing this kinda stuff seep out onto the interweb.

"That stuff" is mainly rubbish from people who can't be bothered to explain context. It's like saying "Eisenhorn defeated a daemonhost just by waving a stick at it! How crap is that!" without explaining that the stick is actually a hugely powerful psychic amplifier made with ancient chaos-infused materials, and after Eisenhorn had spent years furiously learning everything he could about the creatures from a Chaos follower of immense knowledge. Yes there are one or two scenes that need some suspension of disbelief. But seriously, it's like two individual scenes out of a series of about a dozen books.

Iracundus
04-12-2008, 23:59
actually even though chaos won it was declared null and void due to the massive amount of cheating during the caimpaign from all the chaos players

Also completely wrong. Stop spreading misinformation. That may be what hundreds or thousands of Imperial players in denial about losing would like to have happen but no campaign results have been officially voided. The Imperium LOST the campaign. It's been over 6 years and people are still showing poor sportsmanship because they can't accept the fact their side could actually lose.



I don't see how Chaos *won* the 13 Crusade. Can I see a citation of where GW declared it an ACTUAL victory? I was pretty sure it was a stalemate because the Imperial Navy absolutely demolished the Chaos fleets and thus, any gains they made planetside will be for nothing since they can't be resupplied.

Because GW actually said Chaos won? No amount of Imperial fanboy denial is going to change the official result.

I reposted verbatim the results of the 3 most significant sectors starting at http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151201&page=3 and continued on page 5. Chaos held over half of Cadia by the end. I also go in depth in that thread about the actual campaign mechanics and WHY the Imperium lost: disorganization and refusal to coordinate to a higher strategy. Having more reported wins was not the sole factor in that campaign. Where and when a win was reported was just as important, and the Forces of Disorder in that campaign managed to organize to maximize the effect of their fewer wins through placement. This organization was highlighted by Andy Chambers in WD as the major reason for Chaos's success.

The most relevant summary paragraph again verbatim from WD is:


And the result is...Victory for Chaos! Not a complete victory, the forces of Order have held the line in many places and Cadia itself still defies the Arch Warmaster Abaddon. But nonetheless over eight weeks the forces of Disorder have consistently out-fought and outmanoevred their opponents across the warzones of the Eye of Terror. - Death by a Thousand Cuts, WD, Andy Chambers

Nowhere does the word "stalemate" or "draw" appear. Those words have only ever been raised by Imperial apologists unable to admit they actually lost, trying to spin the results into something more palatable to them.

During game conventions immediately after the campaign Andy Chambers and GW developer staff mentioned Chaos has access to "alternative" means of supply such as warp portals and daemonic reinforcements (in direct response to Imperial fans trying to argue with them why the Imperium "really" won the campaign). Also, in 40K, unlike what some people might like to believe, space power is NOT supreme and the only determinant of who wins. Space blockades are not air tight and the Black Library 13th Black Crusade book admits this fact, and the fact that controlling deep space lanes is one thing, controlling the immediate orbital space above a planet is another.

This was even stated directly to Imperial players during the campaign itself when it seemed they were ignoring the planet warzones in favor of dumping wins at the sector/space level. One person kept the Eye of Terror weekly newsletters (though current site is down) and it is still cached at: http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:evdW_119ajYJ:redelf.h1.ru/w40k/eyeofterror/newsletter_5.html+%22red+elf%22+newsletter+eye+of+ terror&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=hk

The relevant section is again:
Ursarkar Creed has been hailed by many as the most able Imperial Guard commander since the legendary Lord Solar Macharius, yet many observers have noted that his sub-commanders have not proved themselves quite so capable. So sudden and mobile has the Despoiler's invasion proved that many commanders at a system and planetary level have simply been unable to coordinate their actions, and are reacting to the enemy's attacks rather than dictating their own terms of battle. Creed has issued stern orders to his subordinates- take the initiative at a planetary level, or fall. The choice is that simple.

That was in the GW directions to the players. Imperial players did not manage to turn the tide at the planetary warzones, while others ignored those directions to continue dumping wins in space. It doesn't get more straightforward than GW telling them they were going to lose if they continued on their then current course. They did, and they lost. No grounds for complaining when they had been warned of the consequences.



At the rate we're going, the fact Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign should probably be stickied. Once again it is extremely ironic how people have no problems getting their basic facts straight and accepting the results with Ichar IV, Armageddon 3, or Medusa V but the moment it comes to the one worldwide campaign where the Imperium lost, tons of people suddenly seem to spout off misinformation, conspiracy theories, if not outright denial and rejection of GW's official results.

Firaxin
05-12-2008, 00:21
but the moment it comes to the one worldwide campaign where the Imperium lost, tons of people suddenly seem to spout off misinformation, conspiracy theories, if not outright denial and rejection of GW's official results.
...That sounds exactly like what real Imperials would do. ;)

RedStompa
05-12-2008, 00:51
its pretty unlikey that ''thousands'' of Iron Warriors got melted in the tunnels, considering that the Legion only had 12K marines before the heresy. Its much more plausable that the thousands of men mentioned are the same soldiers used by the IW as meatshields to soak up fire and clog defences in storm of iron

The IW in dead sky black sun did make new warriors, you know by using kidnapped imperial children stuck into daemon wombs and given power armor, that was the whole reasoning for the mutant/beastie things that Ventris and his sgt friend, and the remnants of the other space marines encountered.

Probably a thousand IWs were melted.

Melted like the iron they were.

talos935
05-12-2008, 01:29
I'll agree the marines in Traitor General [Gaunt's Ghosts] get the rough end of the stick

and if the Black Crusade bitching keeps going I'll look for this in the wastes :)

Toramino
05-12-2008, 01:34
The IW in dead sky black sun did make new warriors, you know by using kidnapped imperial children stuck into daemon wombs and given power armor, that was the whole reasoning for the mutant/beastie things that Ventris and his sgt friend, and the remnants of the other space marines encountered.

Probably a thousand IWs were melted.

Melted like the iron they were.

only Honsou was creating new marines that way, the rest of the company commanders didnt have access to either the heart of blood or the demonculaba

RedStompa
05-12-2008, 01:38
only Honsou was creating new marines that way, the rest of the company commanders didnt have access to either the heart of blood or the demonculaba

Something I never got: were the daemon wombs one of a kind? I just thought that they were all using them (even though Ventris and the Sgt's mission was to kill HONSOU's daemon wombs.

I still contend that more then 1 IW got melted like the metal he was, unless you can give me the passage directly please.

BrotherAtrox
05-12-2008, 06:02
Also completely wrong. Stop spreading misinformation.
Spreading misinformation is what I do sir. If you tell a lie enough, people will believe it. I'm doing my part to make sure people think the Imperium won - regardless of what Andy Chambers might "say".


The Imperium LOST the campaign. It's been over 6 years and people are still showing poor sportsmanship because they can't accept the fact their side could actually lose.

Because we didn't lose. You barely made any gains, and all of those were on the ground and in very specific locations. Even then, with no support from off-planet - the scorched earth policy adopted by Imperial generals in the late campaign - and countless guerilla fighters that the Chaos numpties will be forced to deal with during their grueling occupation: I don't see how they can hope to hold their gains for any siginificant amount of time. Compounding the situation? Chaos leadership is a bunch of goofy ******. They've been at this for 10,000 years and they still suck hard.

We've got the weight of billions of planets producing billions of munitions with billions upon billions of people. Chaos simply can't handle the numbers. The idea that they even try makes me laugh.


During game conventions immediately after the campaign Andy Chambers and GW developer staff mentioned Chaos has access to "alternative" means of supply such as warp portals and daemonic reinforcements.

Ah, that old argument. "The warp did it." Don't you blokes ever get tired of that one? :D


Also, in 40K, unlike what some people might like to believe, space power is NOT supreme and the only determinant of who wins.

Not supreme power eh? Have you ever heard of Exterminatus?


One person kept the Eye of Terror weekly newsletters (though current site is down) and it is still cached at: http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:evdW_119ajYJ:redelf.h1.ru/w40k/eyeofterror/newsletter_5.html+%22red+elf%22+newsletter+eye+of+ terror&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=hk

Holy crap! Thank you! I've actually been looking for someone who archived those bits. There was a surprising amount of detail.

Koryphaus
05-12-2008, 06:34
Spreading misinformation is what I do sir. If you tell a lie enough, people will believe it. I'm doing my part to make sure people think the Imperium won - regardless of what Andy Chambers might "say".

Regardless of what Andy Chambers might say lol.. Regardless of what was printed in WD, on the various GW websites.. How about this one? Codex: Chaos Space Marines, page 46, last paragraph of Abaddon's fluff..
In Abaddon's latest attack, the fortress world of Cadia was overrun by Abaddon's Black Legion and their allies.

It cannot get any clearer than that. Abaddon did not smash through the Cadian Gate and strike at Terra, but Cadia is under Chaos control.


Because we didn't lose. You barely made any gains, and all of those were on the ground and in very specific locations.

Yes, they barely made any gains.. Of course. :rolleyes: Very specific locations. Such as Cadia? :eek:


Even then, with no support from off-planet - the scorched earth policy adopted by Imperial generals in the late campaign - and countless guerilla fighters that the Chaos numpties will be forced to deal with during their grueling occupation: I don't see how they can hope to hold their gains for any siginificant amount of time. Compounding the situation? Chaos leadership is a bunch of goofy ******. They've been at this for 10,000 years and they still suck hard.

They don't need to hold their gains. They hit hard and move on, which is what the Disorder players did in order to win the campaign. They arranged for a large number of battles to take place on certain worlds, then after a day or so, changed the planet. It says so, in the now much quote WD article "Death By A Thousand Cuts".

Secondly, not all the crusades were designed to break open the Cadian Gate. One was specifically to capture Drach'Nyen. Another was to capture the Blackstone Fortresses.


We've got the weight of billions of planets producing billions of munitions with billions upon billions of people. Chaos simply can't handle the numbers. The idea that they even try makes me laugh.


That statement just tells me you have no actual idea about the subject at hand.


Not supreme power eh? Have you ever heard of Exterminatus?

Very few Imperial warships have the required technology and weapons to enact exterminatus.

Orkeosaurus
05-12-2008, 06:34
Servo-arms are repeatedly mentioned as granting great strength to their wielders across 40k canon. Like I said (I don't have the book in front of me, so this is from memory), the Thunderhawk carrying the Terminators get blown out of the sky, barely managing to crash onto the top deck (pilot lives just long enough). The lone chainfist dude is already pretty shaken up and lucky to live. He then gets shot by about 5-6 servitors with heavy bolters and plasma guns, while assaulting the Magos. Magos I think grabs his wrist when the Word Bearer tries to crush him with the chainfist, and then uses his other servo-arms to rip him apart.It's not a matter of strength so much as it is a matter of resilience. Chainfists are the epitome of tearing through things; they go through Land Raiders like warm butter.
I don't see how a servo harness could stand up to that, unless the Chaos Marine was near dead and unable to really carry out the attack, or the chainfist was half slagged by the plasma (either of which is fully possible).

Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Marneus Calgar defeating several hundred Night Lords by rallying a planet's feudal population.

BrotherAtrox
05-12-2008, 06:44
Regardless of what Andy Chambers might say lol.. Regardless of what was printed in WD, on the various GW websites.. How about this one? Codex: Chaos Space Marines, page 46, last paragraph of Abaddon's fluff..

It cannot get any clearer than that. Abaddon did not smash through the Cadian Gate and strike at Terra, but Cadia is under Chaos control.

Cadia is not under Chaos control, it is occupied by Chaos. You don't control a planet that you barely have half of it, especially when it's Cadia. Every citizen on that planet will die fighting and take a few Chaos fiends with them. Within a few weeks relief armies will kick them off our territory, back into the Eye - because Chaos is incompetent and incapable of doing anything ultimately successful.


They don't need to hold their gains. They hit hard and move on, which is what the Disorder players did in order to win the campaign. They arranged for a large number of battles to take place on certain worlds, then after a day or so, changed the planet. It says so, in the now much quote WD article "Death By A Thousand Cuts".

That might be a great idea if it wasn't for the fact that you can't kill the Imperium with a Thousand Cuts. Or a Billion Cuts. The losses incurred around the Eye have been a drop in the bucket. Hit and run tactics aren't something a besieged enemy like the Chaos legions need to be using. They need to take and hold ground permanently if they ever want the ability to engage in warfare on the same scale that the Imperium is and they're not going to do that practicing disengagement strategy.


Secondly, not all the crusades were designed to break open the Cadian Gate. One was specifically to capture Drach'Nyen. Another was to capture the Blackstone Fortresses.

More useless toys for the traitors. They lack so much vision.


That statement just tells me you have no actual idea about the subject at hand.

That statement just tells me you probably didn't read my post carefully. :D


Very few Imperial warships have the required technology and weapons to enact exterminatus.

That's debatable, but really you only need one or two ships to take care of the problem around the Eye.

Iracundus
05-12-2008, 06:53
Spreading misinformation is what I do sir. If you tell a lie enough, people will believe it. I'm doing my part to make sure people think the Imperium won - regardless of what Andy Chambers might "say".


Clear admission then you're spreading garbage and misinformation. This forum is to discuss the background, not to spread lies and fan fiction and try to pass it off as background. Andy Chambers was the director and coordinator of the Eye of Terror campaign and one of the main GW developers at the time. What he said and more concretely what he published in WD is official GW background, and all the sources are clear: the Imperium lost. Trying to deny that is no different from someone trying to argue Horus won the Battle for Terra. It is wrong.



Because we didn't lose. You barely made any gains, and all of those were on the ground and in very specific locations.

Textbook case of sore loser. GW and WD and the results you dared people to cite have shown the Imperium LOST. The BL 13th Crusade campaign book admits to losing.

And who is this "you" that you are trying to refer to? I didn't play for Chaos in the campaign. I was Eldar and Tyranids. I have no personal investment in Chaos winning or losing either way. It is simple sportsmanship to acknowledge when one loses a game or contest and take the loss with good grace. Stomping one's feet, spreadiing misinformation claiming to win when one hasn't, and denying the results of a game/contest when it doesn't suit one's desires all reeks of being a spoiled sore loser.



We've got the weight of billions of planets producing billions of munitions with billions upon billions of people. Chaos simply can't handle the numbers. The idea that they even try makes me laugh.


That might be a great idea if it wasn't for the fact that you can't kill the Imperium with a Thousand Cuts. Or a Billion Cuts. The losses incurred around the Eye have been a drop in the bucket. Hit and run tactics aren't something a besieged enemy like the Chaos legions need to be using. They need to take and hold ground permanently if they ever want the ability to engage in warfare on the same scale that the Imperium is and they're not going to do that practicing disengagement strategy.

If you had bothered to do an iota of source checking, you should have read that the industrial heartland of the Cadian Gate, Agripinaa sector, is in ruins with the majority under Chaos control. Any Imperial war materials and reinforcements have to be brought in from further away. Nor is the formerly prosperous Scarus sector in any shape to give aid as the majority of the worlds there are Ork occupied from the results of the Eye of Terror campaign.

All you're doing is making yourself more of a fool for trying to make up numbers out of thin air. The Imperium clocks in at about a million inhabited planets. Even with some give and take, that is nowhere near the "billions" you're making up. Furthermore in the 4th ed. Space Marines Codex and in the 4th ed. Tau Empire Codex there are references to the Imperium having to strip garrisons along the Tau front due to commitments in the Cadian Gate. The fact the Imperium has to resort to robbing Paul to pay Peter shows the dire situation at the Gate and that despite its vastness, the Imperium's numbers are still insufficient to meet all commitments, necessitating prioritization. The Imperium's losses have NOT been a drop in the bucket if they are stripping garrisons and costing themselves territory at the hands of the Tau in order to reinforce the Gate.



Not supreme power eh? Have you ever heard of Exterminatus?

Exterminatus was enacted on St. Josamine's Hope and Malin's Reach during the campaign. Didn't change the result of the campaign. Abaddon then went on to destroy Macharia with the Planet Killer, which as detailed in official GW BFG background is feared precisely it does what the Imperium cannot do even with Exterminatus: destroy a planet, not merely render it lifeless.


I suggest you take off your Imperium fanboy blinkers before you go any further as it is obvious to anyone here that you have 1) not bothered to read the background 2) are making things up to cover your ignorance of the background 3) continue to show your ignorance by trying to deny and reject official background that you dared others to present and which they have done.



Darkness has fallen across a hundred worlds, and for the defenders of the Cadian Gate, the pure light of day now seems but a distant memory. Though the forces of the Despoiler have been denied the ultimate prize of the fall of Cadia, Abaddon’s hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and none can see them being repelled for many years to come. Abaddon and his council of three have outmanoeuvred and out fought the forces of the Imperium at almost every turn. Corpses litter the battlefields in their millions, yet millions more still stand beleaguered, against a foe that knows no mercy and whose only goal is the utter destruction of all who stand before them.

The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate- perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia.

At the close of the Thirteenth Black Crusade, Cadia still stands. But she stands alone, a failing beacon flickering against the encroaching night. Total war is come to Segmentum Obscurus, and all hopes of repelling the invaders are dashed. The Imperium must now consolidate its grip upon those worlds it still holds, and prepare to fight a war that will not end within the lifetime of any of its combatants. While Cadia still stands, humanity has reason to hope, but Abaddon the Despoiler has finally achieved what he has failed to do on twelve previous occasions, over ten thousand years- he has breached the Cadian Gate, and none can now hold back the inexorable tide of Chaos unleashed upon the Imperium of Man. - Eye of Terror final campaign newsletter, reprinted also on last page of Black Library 13th Black Crusade book

The struggle for the Gate will last years and is not a simple Imperial mopping up operation of a few weeks. The Imperial Navy maintains some ability to resupply but it isn't some deus ex machina that suddenly makes everything perfect overnight. The fact reinforcements are being drawn from the Tau front to fight in the Gate shows reinforcements aren't so easily available and don't just magically appear instantly.

Trying to claim the Imperium won against this avalanche of evidence otherwise is simple delusion and denial...and all just to avoid admitting one lost. I think that fits the definition of sore loser pretty well.

BrotherAtrox
05-12-2008, 07:03
Clear admission then...*insert Iracundus taking this thread way too seriously instead of enjoying the nature of 40K fluff*...you dared others to present and which they have done.

Well I was trying to have a bit of fun, but I guess I've come to the wrong place. This is a place for serious discussion of fake history and clearly far too esteemed for a bit of comical fanboy-ism. Cheers. :)

Rabid Bunny 666
05-12-2008, 07:03
because Chaos is incompetent and incapable of doing anything ultimately successful.

Apart from taking over half a planet in two months ;)



More useless toys for the traitors. They lack so much vision.


Yep, hell, they only managed to kill the oldest Farseer the Eldar had as well as turn enough Imperial and Eldar fleet into scrap.



... but really you only need one or two ships to take care of the problem around the Eye.

i really don't know what to say to this.

Koryphaus
05-12-2008, 08:01
That statement just tells me you probably didn't read my post carefully. :D

Whatever.


That's debatable, but really you only need one or two ships to take care of the problem around the Eye.

No, it isn't debateable. You need virus bombs (rarely used since the Horus Heresy) or Cyclonic Torpedoes, which are as common as hen's teeth.


Well I was trying to have a bit of fun, but I guess I've come to the wrong place. This is a place for serious discussion of fake history and clearly far too esteemed for a bit of comical fanboy-ism. Cheers. :)

Bye.

Nicha11
05-12-2008, 10:42
Don't you blokes ever get tired of that one? :D
.


Because we didn't lose.

Imperium= Lose! Its that simple guys quite your fluff bitching, at least on this subject. Results favour Chaos, GW says Chaos won and GW's word is law therefore Chaos Victory


That's debatable, but really you only need one or two ships to take care of the problem around the Eye.

I'm sorry I really am, I just don't understand your "point" is it a joke? If not i can clearly see why Chaos beat the Imperium.

BrotherAtrox
05-12-2008, 11:50
I'm sorry I really am, I just don't understand your "point" is it a joke? If not i can clearly see why Chaos beat the Imperium.

Yes, this was intended to be a joke in the form of blatantly lying about the truth (something the Imperium is famous for) in hopes that it would be taken lightly....clearly not. Oh well.

Radium
05-12-2008, 12:45
It's not a matter of strength so much as it is a matter of resilience. Chainfists are the epitome of tearing through things; they go through Land Raiders like warm butter.
I don't see how a servo harness could stand up to that, unless the Chaos Marine was near dead and unable to really carry out the attack, or the chainfist was half slagged by the plasma (either of which is fully possible).

The servo harness did not stop the blow, the servo ARM did it. You know, grabbing his wrist and all that.

I say the entirety of Black Sun, Dead Sky is CSM fail. Iron warriors failing horrible at siege warfare, and getting their behinds handed to them by two ultramarines. Oh, right, ultramarines are made of win, and can kick any number of traitor butt.

Anyhow, on the 13th black crusade thingy, the Eldar won! They got a craftworld back, their greatest seer is dead but still lives (as seen on any major battlefield with an Eldar presence these days) and I remember reading their raids during the EoT campaign were pretty successful overall.
Meh, chaos won, but GW seems to ignore the the EoT campaign nowadays, none of the results have made any difference or impact on the 40k universe.

x-esiv-4c
05-12-2008, 13:25
I love it when fanbois get smacked down. Then they always come back with:

"Ohh I was just joking, this is just how *insert object of fanboism here* would act!"

In a poor attempt to save face.

Burnthem
05-12-2008, 13:38
Sigh....I've heard about this kinda stuff happening in the GG series. Kinda saddening they turn Chaos into one-dimensional bad-guys with the intelligence of 2 year-olds. Oh, and make their 10,000 year-old assault walkers to be blinded by flashlights and tripping over weeds :rolleyes: . I've read his other work, but I haven't touched GG due to hearing this kinda stuff seep out onto the interweb.

So you're criticising a series of books you haven't even read? :wtf:

BrotherAtrox
05-12-2008, 13:39
I love it when fanbois get smacked down. Then they always come back with:

"Ohh I was just joking, this is just how *insert object of fanboism here* would act!"

In a poor attempt to save face.

Man if I was concerned with what people thought of me I wouldn't be on a forum that's centered around tiny plastic men, dice rolling, and space elves. :p

Crazy Tom
05-12-2008, 15:39
So you're criticising a series of books you haven't even read? :wtf:

Well spotted.

Complaining about things you haven't experienced is a big NO. If you haven't a read a book, all you can say is what you have heard other people say. You should read it before making judgements. You cannot make any complaints yourself until you have an experience to complain about. This is why I'm going to have to read Eragon, the Twilight novels and The God Delusion before I talk to anyone else about them. (Don't debate this here, that would derail the thread. These are just examples.)

Most of the CSMs fought in the Ghosts books are heavily outnumbered and take a decent toll before dying.

The main event that stands out is in Traitor General, when the CSMs didn't expect Gaunt to have a power sword, were dealing with explosives experts and also the partisans themselves - the death of the main one is the result not of the poison - although that slowed him down - but from the dozens of iron barbs impaling his head from the large number of partisans involved in the battle. It's not really 'fail', although they lose. Gaunt even notes the lethality of the situation and at the start of the battle, all the Ghosts run away from the CSMs.

Besides, the series as a whole has some excellent writing, likeable characters and one of the most convincing portrayals of the world in question. Head and shoulders above the rest of the Black Library stuff I've read, in terms of showing us an Imperium that might actually work.

The Ghosts series also has the accolade of being almost solely responsible for changing the IG from WW2 rejects into a competent military force. (Yeah, some WW2-style regiments still exist. Even in the books themselves. Thankfully, this is generally lampshaded as being a bad idea.)

As for the Iron Warriors... been a while since I read DSBS. And I'm at uni so I don't have it with me. Umm, I probably got it wrong, I'd guess maybe hundreds or dozens of CSMs. Anyone with the book can set us straight. It's towards the latter half of the novel.

Sheena Easton
05-12-2008, 15:51
They're Slannesh Marines. The books set in the Eye - every character in it's aligned to one chaos god or another.

Is it not set in the Malestrom thingy?

Toramino
05-12-2008, 19:58
As for the Iron Warriors... been a while since I read DSBS. And I'm at uni so I don't have it with me. Umm, I probably got it wrong, I'd guess maybe hundreds or dozens of CSMs. Anyone with the book can set us straight. It's towards the latter half of the novel.

I have the book and surprise I am correct.

page 313 DSBS :

''But word of these tales [ghost stories of Honsous fortress] had filtered back to the thousands of human soldiers who had spent the last few months billeted in garrison tunnels he [IW tunnel overseer] had constructed.
*snip a boring sentence or two*
Despite this, all the soldiers were armed and ready to begin the assault upon the opening of Khalan-Ghols belly, and Keagh was eager to get to grips with the foe.''

It also makes reference to the hundreds of slaves still toiling away in the tunnels on the same page.

Argument solved

Orkeosaurus
05-12-2008, 20:35
The servo harness did not stop the blow, the servo ARM did it. You know, grabbing his wrist and all that.Well then the Terminator must have been worse off than I thought. Letting someone grab your wrist with a mechanical arm, when your hand could easily tear through that arm, and you're a 10,000 war veteran, is quite a mistake.

That said, this guy sounded pretty much dead by the time he reached the Magos, so he does have something of an excuse.


Oh, right, Marneus Calgar are made of win, and can kick several hundred Night Lords of traitor butt. With a bunch of medieval peasants.Fixed it for you. ;)

RedStompa
05-12-2008, 20:48
Well then the Terminator must have been worse off than I thought. Letting someone grab your wrist with a mechanical arm, when your hand could easily tear through that arm, and you're a 10,000 war veteran, is quite a mistake.

That said, this guy sounded pretty much dead by the time he reached the Magos, so he does have something of an excuse.

Fixed it for you. ;)


OK thanks toramino,

As for this: The terminator didn't really seem like he was 'pretty much dead', and by the time he swung his fist for the Magos, he was already inside the bubble shield, although it seemed like a last ditch effort to smash the magos into parts, I doubt that the Magos's arms were slow by any means, and I don't think he simply clamped his wrist, as the writing would have you belive, but clamped and drilled into the armor itself (I imagine two pinchers like those plastic grabber claws, with a drill in the middle), like some of the other combat servitors had done.

Unlike them, however I don't think the arm could just simply be ripped from the Magos, since he was a Magos, and it would be pretty weak if they weren't 'built' stronger then their combat servitors.

Orkeosaurus
05-12-2008, 22:38
The servo arm doesn't need to be slow, it needs to be less than extremely fast to be unable to catch the wrist of a thousand year veteran with a hand that can rip through anything.

If the Terminator wasn't already severely hurt I wouldn't believe it.

holmcross
06-12-2008, 05:24
Everyone should keep in mind that when they're writing fluff and stories for a wargame in which players have individual factions, no victories will ever be "absolute." The whole goal of the fluff is to make you like your respective army more. Thats why every conflict can seem like a victory, depending on the side you favor.

Slaanesh destroys Khaine, but not completly: Khaine survives in the form of the avatars and protects the craftworlds.

Horus is destroyed, but turns the emperor into meat-pudding.

Eldrad dies, but takes out an entire corrupted blackstone fortress with him.

A primarch of the CSM dies, but only because he wanted to be killed.

... and so on.

Every peice of fiction will always end in gains and losses on both sides. Thats the only way you can make a universe of badasses (with the exception of one, small empire of certain fish-heads ;)) constantly fighting each other, with none of the badasses really losing face to each other.

Scyllian
06-12-2008, 05:40
i dont know about CSM death but the most embarassing death was in fulgrim.

i don't care, but im sorry NO ONE should be able to choke out an avatar. this is warhammer, not UFC

karamazov
06-12-2008, 05:57
I agree.
I also stopped reading much of Dan Abnett after reading “Brothers of the Snake”.
Take a look at Page 98 when 10 wounded Iron Snakes kill “- a thousand over and again of Dark Eldar”.
I read that, chuckled to myself, shook my head, and gave the book to my friend.

DarkMatter2
06-12-2008, 06:03
I love it when fanbois get smacked down. Then they always come back with:

"Ohh I was just joking, this is just how *insert object of fanboism here* would act!"

In a poor attempt to save face.

While generally this might be true, in this specific case I do think he was joking and also Iracundus DOES take the topic of the results of the Black Crusade beyond beyond too serious - to the point where words like "disturbing" "sad" or "obsession" might be used.

Toramino
06-12-2008, 06:13
You guys are taking the campaign results like they actualy matter, even if Chaos had scored a victory in the 80% range GW would never advance the fluff beyond ''ITS A HUGE STALEMATE'', they did the same thing with Armageddon.

Iracundus
06-12-2008, 07:33
There have been brief mentions of the background change as I already cited in the 4th ed. Space Marine Codex and Tau Empire Codex, where the Imperium withdraws units from the Tau frontier in order to reinforce the Gate.

People wouldn't stand for an opponent who was such a sore loser in tabletop games, so why should similar sore loser behavior for a larger contest be any different? The facts are also generally publically available so it is not like it should be an incredible task to find out the results of that particular campaign. It is a simple matter of background just like Horus losing the Battle of Terra, Ultramarines winning against Behemoth, etc... I and others shouldn't need to have to keep clarifying time and time again that Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign and the 13th Black Crusade wasn't turned back, yet every few months someone comes along rejecting the GW results and claiming the exact opposite.

Rabid Imperial fanboys are not a mythical phenomenon. There have been some as recently as a few months ago in the last major Eye of Terror thread:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151201&highlight=Cadia&page=2

Ekranoplan there is case in point, with his serious stance of 'The Imperium still won the Eye of Terror campaign even if GW says it lost'. Nor is he the only one as there have been others in the past. If a poster writes and posts like a fanboy, they shouldn't be surprised to be treated and smacked down like a fanboy.

That thread was long precisely because after the campaign, there was so much denial and spin by such Imperial players that years after the fact many new players have heard all sorts of distorted information via word of mouth regarding the results and events of the campaign. A good chunk of that thread was simply dispelling all the distorted word of mouth people had heard.

BrotherAtrox
06-12-2008, 07:57
I agree.
I also stopped reading much of Dan Abnett after reading “Brothers of the Snake”.
Take a look at Page 98 when 10 wounded Iron Snakes kill “- a thousand over and again of Dark Eldar”.
I read that, chuckled to myself, shook my head, and gave the book to my friend.

That is what always gets me about Abnett. He's a great writer and is usually really good about fitting in with the fluff....but 2,000 Dark Eldar? That's pretty hefty for 10 Space Marines. Now if they're all Grotesques...

Burnthem
06-12-2008, 15:06
Dan Abnett seems to write in two different styles, you have the 'mass-produced' style that fits with books like 'Brothers of the Snake' and a couple of the GG books, and you have the 'novel' style ala 'Eisenhorn' and 'Ravenor'.

Read Eisenhorn and tell me that Abnett isn't the best 40K writer ever. That book isn't just an excellent BL book, but a damn fine story in its own right. Just because he may write the odd mass-production-crowd-pleasing-paperback doesn't mean you should roundly criticise him as a poor author. Even Van Gogh did some crap paintings.

RedStompa
06-12-2008, 22:37
Anger and hate

ENOUGH ABOUT IT ALREADY!

The reason I asked was because I heard from a friend that there was ONE particular player/commander that screwed something up so badly that it effected the rest of the campaign. That's all I asked about; who was it, and what did they do?

If that is accurate, just give an answer, don't debate it. If it's inaccurate, just say its inaccurate and let it be the end of it.

Fire Harte
06-12-2008, 22:50
Although Dan Abnet's 'Brothers of The Snake' was his first marine novel.

So Horus Rising did not count? I R CONFUZZLED! It had marines in it.

But yes, 2,000 plus eldar... no way... not when they struggle later on with a few of them DEFENDING a place. Hehe...

Meh. :angel:

MrBigMr
06-12-2008, 23:16
Hmm... How about in Fire Warrior, where Kais drops in the middle of CSM and the Khorne one starts slashing with his weapons, killing everyone but Kais. Epic fail if I ever saw one.

Or Daemon World where good deal of Violators were just swept away by Khorne daemons without a fight.


hmm, i was going to mention Kroeger's death from Storm of Iron
killed by his angry wife. no kid, but only a little...
She wasn't his wife and he was but naked while she wore his armour and was fused with some daemon or something. And wasn't he asleep or something when she attacked?

RedStompa
06-12-2008, 23:45
Hmm... How about in Fire Warrior, where Kais drops in the middle of CSM and the Khorne one starts slashing with his weapons, killing everyone but Kais. Epic fail if I ever saw one.

Or Daemon World where good deal of Violators were just swept away by Khorne daemons without a fight.


She wasn't his wife and he was but naked while she wore his armour and was fused with some daemon or something. And wasn't he asleep or something when she attacked?

Whats this about some random woman putting on power armor and killing someone?

Toramino
06-12-2008, 23:58
Whats this about some random woman putting on power armor and killing someone?

In Storm of Iron one of the iron warriors takes a woman prisoner and makes her his slave, this includes cleaning his blood stained armor ect ect. anyway she gradualy becomes more and more angry and twisted by voices in her head which turn out to be the armor that she is cleaning, which is somehow possessed by a demon. The demon goads her into putting the armor on and she is possessed by it, she/it then slaughters the IW who had taken her slave who had just woken up from his sleep.

Fire Harte
07-12-2008, 00:05
Hmm... How about in Fire Warrior, where Kais drops in the middle of CSM and the Khorne one starts slashing with his weapons, killing everyone but Kais. Epic fail if I ever saw one.


:wtf: :eyebrows: There is a word for that, it is yet to be invented, but hatever it is, it is that. :D

Officially the worst way for a chaos marine to die in my opinion then.

MrBigMr
07-12-2008, 00:19
In Storm of Iron one of the iron warriors takes a woman prisoner and makes her his slave, this includes cleaning his blood stained armor ect ect. anyway she gradualy becomes more and more angry and twisted by voices in her head which turn out to be the armor that she is cleaning, which is somehow possessed by a demon. The demon goads her into putting the armor on and she is possessed by it, she/it then slaughters the IW who had taken her slave who had just woken up from his sleep.
You forgot the best bit, where she takes his place and leads Kroegers company into battle. And then her armour betrays her and she just disappears through some Warp portal never to be heard from again. Most anti-climatic thing in ages. She was the only reason I had any interest in the book. After that if was all down hill from there.

I feel like finding the author and giving him a good size 11˝ steel tipped boot on the nuts for that. I bet it was some GW fanboy editor that didn't like the idea of a female Space Marine and had her removed promptly. The bastards...


Officially the worst way for a chaos marine to die in my opinion then.
So I win the thread and a million internets?

I don't dislike Fire Warrior on the concept, it's just the action scenes and the fact that I might as well play the game. There are some interesting bits here and there.

Toramino
07-12-2008, 00:30
You forgot the best bit, where she takes his place and leads Kroegers company into battle. And then her armour betrays her and she just disappears through some Warp portal never to be heard from again. Most anti-climatic thing in ages. She was the only reason I had any interest in the book. After that if was all down hill from there.

I feel like finding the author and giving him a good size 11˝ steel tipped boot on the nuts for that. I bet it was some GW fanboy editor that didn't like the idea of a female Space Marine and had her removed promptly. The bastards...


Hmm well A) she isnt a space marine, shes a woman possessed by an Avatar of Khorne who happens to be residing in some armor, and B) It comes back in dead sky black sun, it turns out the demon armor actualy belonged to a very powerfull bloodthirster who the IW had captured and were using to power a fortress. When the armor leaves her and returns to the bloodthirster the woman left is just an insane shrivelled husk.

Fire Harte
07-12-2008, 00:33
Not saying that the book was crap in any way MrBigMr, just that the scene in question as fairly ridiculous. Besides, never read it. Perhaps my choice of smileys was wrong. I actually found a lot of amusement reading your post. No million internetz yet, n=but if no one tops it then have some kudos for bringing it to light.

C.S Goto wrote some rididculous crap though...

:angel:

MrBigMr
07-12-2008, 00:49
Hmm well A) she isnt a space marine, shes a woman possessed by an Avatar of Khorne who happens to be residing in some armor
Ah, but this brings us to the great big question: What is a space marine? I mean, is it the gene-seeds? As if I understand correctly, not all CSM always have them, getting their strenght from mutations, surgery and gene-therapy or, ready for this, daemonic pacts.

It reminds me of an old Donald Duck album, which was set in a sort of fantasy world. Scrooge was a king and refused to spread the wealth with his subjects. Donald could replace him, but he had to be a questing knight, like Scrooge had been, in order to qualify for the job. So he is given the chance, dubbed knight and sent of to do quests. After many failures he returns a beaten duck.

But it's not before the boys argue that 1) Donald was a knight and 2) he did quests, even if he wasn't successful. Ergo, he was a questing knights.


Urlana filled the slot of a Space Marine and even though no one knew her identity, she was one of the guys. She was, for the brief moment before getting teleported away, a Space Marine.


B) It comes back in dead sky black sun, it turns out the demon armor actualy belonged to a very powerfull bloodthirster who the IW had captured and were using to power a fortress. When the armor leaves her and returns to the bloodthirster the woman left is just an insane shrivelled husk.
You know this for a fact, as I've had contradicting statements about whether or not she is in it. Not that I'm really tempted to read it. I've never liked Space Marines and Space Marine novels even less.

TheMartyr451
07-12-2008, 00:59
Also completely wrong. Stop spreading misinformation. That may be what hundreds or thousands of Imperial players in denial about losing would like to have happen but no campaign results have been officially voided. The Imperium LOST the campaign. It's been over 6 years and people are still showing poor sportsmanship because they can't accept the fact their side could actually lose.

It's ok...let them spread their filthy Imperial propaganda. :p

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!

Iracundus
07-12-2008, 01:00
The reason I asked was because I heard from a friend that there was ONE particular player/commander that screwed something up so badly that it effected the rest of the campaign. That's all I asked about; who was it, and what did they do?

If that is accurate, just give an answer, don't debate it. If it's inaccurate, just say its inaccurate and let it be the end of it.


What you heard was complete rubbish and is just one more example of the ridiculous misinformation still passed on by word of mouth. No worldwide campaign's course has ever been affected by 1 player. It's yet again more Imperial scapegoating trying to pin blame for their loss on someone else. Go search the forums yourself if you want the reason why the Imperium lost. The answer to that same question was posted months ago and is still available. If you can't be bothered to search yourself, then obviously you don't care enough to know the answer.

Toramino
07-12-2008, 01:02
Ah, but this brings us to the great big question: What is a space marine? I mean, is it the gene-seeds? As if I understand correctly, not all CSM always have them, getting their strenght from mutations, surgery and gene-therapy or, ready for this, daemonic pacts.

It You know this for a fact, as I've had contradicting statements about whether or not she is in it. Not that I'm really tempted to read it. I've never liked Space Marines and Space Marine novels even less.


You're right that not all CSM get that way from gene seed, but I wouldnt regard them as Space Marines either, just grotesquely powerfull warp infused humans, and considering larana went from average guardsman to slaughtering an entire company, cleaving a space marine librarian in half and then tearing a hole in the fabric of reality i wouldnt say she was in control.

And yes i do know for fact she appears in DSBS, after the armor and demon leave her and return to the bloodthirster, captain leonid (who had somehow escaped captivity) recognised her uniform as his regiment of jouran dragoons and reads Laranas name out on her name tag. she is an insane husk and can only repeat ''theyre all dead'' over and over before they die.

Orkeosaurus
07-12-2008, 02:02
The Eye of Terror thing reminds me of that player who is in an objectives mission, ignores the objectives because they would rather try and kill as many enemies as they can, loses the game even though they have way more points left on the board, and then loudly claims that it's not fair they lost, and in real life they should have won because they could keep fighting, all as an excuse for not having kept the objectives in mind from the start.

(Also, i hurd u liek run-on sentences?)

zeep
07-12-2008, 02:28
There seems to have been a misunderstanding of one of my earlier posts. In point of fact, I do not mind the Chaos Space Marines. My point was involving Horus himself. I detest his fluff personally. I do not question the victories and defeats of the 13th black crusade... but that of a character that has failed in all ways possible, even with the literal forces of hell at his side.

MrBigMr
07-12-2008, 02:35
1) I think you mean Abaddon.
2) How can you say he had failed, when you don't even know what his objectives were. If you would really read into it, Abaddon had managed quite well. It's not about taking over the galaxy in one glorious swoop. It never was. Horus already pointed out that it's not that easy. He's just gnawing at the Imperium, causing tension and letting the giant clubber itself to death.

Besides, if you were to read things like Pawns of Chaos, you could see that Imperium is actually good for Chaos, because it brings the opposition (order) which makes the whole conflict possible. Without the Imperium, Chaos would burn itself out in no time at all. They need the order to survive. At least Tzeentch understands this.

Col. Tartleton
07-12-2008, 02:37
Maybe not a CSM, but heres an embarrasing Space Marine Death and probably the best piece from Dan "Danny Boy" Abnett ever: The Fall of Malvolian

I think I have to quote the entire section of the story to create the feeling I need here.


'Look! Look!' cried Femlyn.

There were dots in the sky, burning dots that fast resolved themselves into drop-pods flaring in atmospheric entry. A dozen, two dozen, three.
'Oh praise the Emperor!' Grauss breathed.
The first pods hit the ground, bouncing and and tearing through the cushion of foliage.
Grauss saw the men clamber out. Adeptus Astartes. Space Marines, the Lamenters. They had come, as promised, yellow armor gleaming in the dying light. They had come despite the odds.
The giant armored warriors, humanity's finest, deployed from their pods, blasting with bolters, flamers, and meltas. Termagaunts and hormaguants exploded beneath their withering fire power. Flamers burned the stinking plant growth away. Gargoyles were blown, ruptured out of the sky. Grauss saw a ravener convulse and die under a melta's kiss. He saw plasma fire destroy a mantis killer.
There, a marine with a power claw ripped a tyranid warrior in two, the corpse exploding with bile and psychic energy. Here, a marine with a rocket launcher sent up a jinking missile that blew a zoanthrope into flaring specks of matter.

Then some more nids (not even like an epic tide, like individual nids, a couple fexes, a few ravs, and a zoanth) come and own what must be several companies if there are 3 dozen or so drop pods and the IG officer Grauss shoots himself as to not be eaten alive by the monsters...

The best part is when the marines are running away and a zoanthrope is chasing them down lighting them on fire with its mind blasts like a magnifying glass to ants... which is ironic since its the bug.

Grauss pretty much s***s a brick after seeing the marines run away and I'll forever love Abnett for describing what should be movie marines as sucking as moderately as the table top ones. For this he is awesome, like the opposite of everyone else in BL. He makes space marines less tough then his guardmen (ignoring the aforementioned bros of the snake book, which i think must be an editing error, its probably 200 and again or god forbid, 20 and again... which would make sense)

zeep
08-12-2008, 20:47
1) I think you mean Abaddon.
2) How can you say he had failed, when you don't even know what his objectives were. If you would really read into it, Abaddon had managed quite well. It's not about taking over the galaxy in one glorious swoop. It never was. Horus already pointed out that it's not that easy. He's just gnawing at the Imperium, causing tension and letting the giant clubber itself to death.

Besides, if you were to read things like Pawns of Chaos, you could see that Imperium is actually good for Chaos, because it brings the opposition (order) which makes the whole conflict possible. Without the Imperium, Chaos would burn itself out in no time at all. They need the order to survive. At least Tzeentch understands this.

Nope, I most definitely meant Horus. Abbadon has character at the least.

The Guy
08-12-2008, 21:31
Nope, I most definitely meant Horus. Abbadon has character at the least.

Huh? Abaddon is the most embarassing living CSM :D

@ Col. Tartleton, that has to be one of my favourite stories ever, so awesome.

My vote goes to the SINDRI!!!! in DOW, he was a daemon prince for what...10 minutes? :p

Brother Siccarius
09-12-2008, 01:46
I'd put one of the most embarrassing CSM deaths as the World Eater in the Caiphas Cain novels who's out-dueled so badly by a Commisar (Cain) that he doesn't even notice the guy with the Meltagun sneak up behind him.

To be absolutely fair to the Kornate champion, he's a khorne Berserker in the middle of combat, he's actually beating Cain for a while there (and Cain mentions it), and Cain and Jurgen have perfected this maneuver a hundred and one times.


Hehe, are we all forgetting how easy Gaunts Ghosts find it to take down CSM? Mkoll and the Chaos Dread is amazing, but to be honest, its the plants that do the work.

Also, i think its Mkoll again, where he is just simply distracting a chaos lord with idle conversation while a pack of 20 tube charges is ticking down to blow! BAM!

Crafty ghosts....

It's not idle conversation, Mkoll's getting blasted at during this time by the Chaos Lord's bodyguards. There's nothing ticking, and no way that the Chaos Lord would know that there way a jury-rigged bomb set under his table. He would have died wether he knew Mkoll was there or not.



Sigh....I've heard about this kinda stuff happening in the GG series. Kinda saddening they turn Chaos into one-dimensional bad-guys with the intelligence of 2 year-olds. Oh, and make their 10,000 year-old assault walkers to be blinded by flashlights and tripping over weeds :rolleyes: . I've read his other work, but I haven't touched GG due to hearing this kinda stuff seep out onto the interweb.

They aren't. Gaunt's Ghosts actually goes the most in depth into non-astartes chaos of any other book I've read involving chaos, or even the Chaos codexies.

You hear a lot of gross exaggerations on things from the Gaunt's Ghosts series. Like a Guardsman tackling a space marine (never happened).

RedStompa
09-12-2008, 01:49
Right, Sindiri, I remember him :).

Don't forget the two others in DoW: DC, both them turned into blood letters, and they both got utterly annhiliated.

Oh, and ahain with Dark Crusade, the Chaos Librarian that got tricked by the eldar into serving as their pawn... IT CANNOT BE!!

Koryphaus
09-12-2008, 01:56
To be absolutely fair to the Kornate champion, he's a khorne Berserker in the middle of combat, he's actually beating Cain for a while there (and Cain mentions it), and Cain and Jurgen have perfected this maneuver a hundred and one times.

He must've been right into his fight with Cain.. Otherwise Jurgen's stench would've given the game away lol

RedStompa
09-12-2008, 02:05
Well not necessarily, in one of the HH books some poet almost made a poem based around how badly Astartes smelled after a fight, and I don't think Berserkers change out of their armor very often, and when they do it would probably be to pour more blood onto themselves...