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Nuada
05-12-2008, 02:37
This is my first battle report, hopefully it's ok.
I finished this game tonight, so I thought i'd write it whilst it's still fresh in my head. It's probably one of the shortest battle reports :D

It's 2,500 points; Orcs v's High Elves

My Orc &Goblin horde;

Orc Great Shaman (lvl 4) - (Staff of Baduum, Horn of Urgok)
Black Orc Bigboss - (Effigy of Mork, enchanted shield, hvy armour, boar)
Night Goblin Shaman (lvl 2) - (dispel scroll, mushroom)
Night Goblin Shaman (lvl 2) - (pipes of doom, mushroom)

5 Wolf Riders (spears, lgt armour) x3 units
24 Savage Orcs (add. choppa, full cmd)
24 Savage Orcs (add. choppa, full cmd)
30 Orc Boyz (choppa, shield, full cmd)
30 Orc Boyz (add. choppa, full cmd)
20 Night Goblins (short bows, 3 fanatics)
4 Orc Boar Chariots
4 Snotling Pump Wagons

The elite High Elf patrol;

Prince riding a Star Dragon - (GW, Armour of Caledor).... 2+ armour save
Mage (lvl 2) riding in a Tiranoc Chariot - (Annulian Crystal)
Mage (lvl 2) - (Staff of Sorcery, Talisman of Protection) with swordmaster unit

10 Archers (longbows)
10 Archers (longbows)
2 Lion Chariots of Chrace
5 Dragon Princes (Banner of Ellyrion, full cmd)...move through terrain
19 Swordmasters (Banner of Sorcery, full cmd)...+D3 power dice
4 Bolt Throwers


The board was 6'x4'. There was two hills in his deployment zone and two buildings at diagonal opposites. One in my deployment zone on my left, the other just infront of his deployment zone


In the centre i deployed my two big Orc Boy units, flanked by savage orcs with a few chariots mixed in. Two wolf rider units were set on the extreme edges, the other central. Night goblins nearly opposite the dragon princes(opposite the right hill) The rest of the pump wagons and chariots all over


Both his archer units stood on a hill. Behind the hill on the right were his swordmasters and dragon princes. Behind the hill on the left were the 3 chariots. His dragon was poised behind the building. The bolt throwers were scattered around the centre

I finished deploying last (by a long way!!) but I won the first turn


TURN 1 O&G:
I move up all my units, no squabbles, no we'll show 'em. All three wolf rider units are in a position to charge bolt throwers or archers next turn. My two goblin shamans hide in a building and cast like crazy. In the magic phase he steals power dice etc... i kill a Lion Chariot with Foot of Gork. My orc shaman attempts to cast Waaagh with 4 dice, and miscasts (with a 9) he takes a wound. Horn of Urgok dispelled

TURN 1 HE:
The chariots, dragon princes and swordmasters move up. His magic phase does nothing, he miscasts with the chariot mage, the chariot and the mage both take a wound. The dragon lands the other side of a building, sets fire to some wolf riders and they flee (never to return). 2 bolt throwers have single shots at an orc chariot, and reduce him to one wound. A 2nd unit of wolf riders is destroyed by missile fire. A few orcs go down to arrows.


TURN 2 O&G:
I declare the Waaagh, but only the savage orc unit near the dragon, and my generals unit move extra. The wolf riders on the far right roll a 1, and take d6 wounds, this kills them (no more wolf riders). Everyone else moves up. In the magic phase one night goblin overdoses on a mushroom (rolls a 1), miscasts with same result as before (an 8) and takes a wound. The other n.goblin triess foot of gork, dispelled. The orc shaman 'Eadbutts the mage in the chariot (kills him), he gambles with 4d6, succeeds and casts the Waaagh! (everyone = +2d6 move, reroll hits, ASF, but obviously that had no effect v's HEs) Also, the Horn of Urgok kicks in, but i roll a 1 and take a wound (maybe my shaman has sensative ears?)
With this extra movement; the savage orcs charge the dragon.... after loosing one orc they inflict 9 wounds on the prince (9 out of 10, lucky or what) He then saves 7 with his magic armour, just surviving. The dragon is disappointing, only killing 3 orcs. They lose by 3, fail a break test, flee and are caught. The pump wagon, night goblins, and Boar chariot charge the Dragon Princes. Only one fanatic reaches the dragon princes and kills two, the chariot takes down the rest and they overrun into the archers and a bolt thrower. The generals Orc Boyz in the centre charge a bolt thrower, and overrun

TURN 2 HE:
Now he only has one mage in his swordmaster unit. Two bolt throwers with orcs right next to them. A unit of archers with orcs right near them. Lion chariot.

He faces 4 pump wagons, 4 orc chariots, 4 big orc units, 10 power dice (incl. pool)

He decides to concede :p

Malorian
05-12-2008, 04:44
Well... that was a fast game.

Do you always take so many chariots? Or did you know you'd be facing high elves?

That Waaagh! spell is an absolute game winner.

Nuada
05-12-2008, 09:10
Do you always take so many chariots? Or did you know you'd be facing high elves?.

I knew i was facing high elves (he knew he was fighting O&G as well)
It's the first time i've used snotling pump wagons, they were great :D So far with O&G that's 32W 1D 2L Go Orcs!!

Malorian
05-12-2008, 13:11
32W 1D 2L Go Orcs!!

OH YA!!! In your face Storak! ;)

That's a fantastic record :eek:

Please make sure you post your reports against deamons and/or vampire counts. A lot of people on here think that orcs suck and can't beat them, so a few tales of your victories wuold be just what they need to change their mind.

Brinnyunlimited
05-12-2008, 13:37
Congratulations on your victory but, holy crap! Has your opponent never played Warhammer before?

He sinks so many points into his Lord on Dragon and then allows them to get outmanouvered and charged by an INFANTRY unit!

He buys a unit of 20 ranked up Swordmasters? huh? I don't think I've ever seen units of Swordmasters bigger than 10 models, and for good reason!

4 Bolt Throwers and no eagles or cavalry? He has nothing to disrupt or march-block.

Urgh, it was painful to read that battle report!

Nuada
05-12-2008, 14:19
He sinks so many points into his Lord on Dragon and then allows them to get outmanouvered and charged by an INFANTRY unit!

He buys a unit of 20 ranked up Swordmasters? huh? I don't think I've ever seen units of Swordmasters bigger than 10 models, and for good reason!

Yeah, he's quite a good player, he expected me to take 4 rock lobbers and 2 doom divers. That's what i took last battle v's his HE's, so his idea was to go for speed and get to my war machines asap.

I was fairly lucky with my extra 2d6" movement though. The reason the dragon was outmaneuvered was because the savage orcs that charged him were about 18-20 inches away at the start of my turn. I waaaghed for 5", moved 8", then cast Waaagh (the spell) for 9". O&Gs are a fairly fast army, especially Orcs (as long as it's straight forward), on turn 2 my generals orc boyz infantry unit had moved 31" (only 3" off max)

His swordsmasters normally do much better, but he put a mage in them, so was more cautious than normal. The amount of damage they dish out plus full ranks is a killer v's orcs (or most people) I've never bothered working out if they are better in units of 10, not got high elves. You're probably correct, but it's his problem to solve :D

Storak
05-12-2008, 14:24
Congratulations on your victory but, holy crap! Has your opponent never played Warhammer before?

He sinks so many points into his Lord on Dragon and then allows them to get outmanouvered and charged by an INFANTRY unit!

He buys a unit of 20 ranked up Swordmasters? huh? I don't think I've ever seen units of Swordmasters bigger than 10 models, and for good reason!

4 Bolt Throwers and no eagles or cavalry? He has nothing to disrupt or march-block.

Urgh, it was painful to read that battle report!

truth.

orcs dominating the magic phase vs high elves... bizarre.

so the dragon hiding behind a building was the closest (visible) unit to the orcs during animosity AND waaagh spell?

i see some serious difference in skill level there.

Shimmergloom
05-12-2008, 14:36
small point. Your list was not 100% legal. Only one night goblin shaman can have a magic mushroom.

It says A shaman may have multiple mushrooms. Not multiple shamans may take a mushroom or multiple mushrooms.

Storak
05-12-2008, 14:47
Yeah, he's quite a good player, he expected me to take 4 rock lobbers and 2 doom divers. That's what i took last battle v's his HE's, so his idea was to go for speed and get to my war machines asap.

sorry, but what part of his army was the one with the speed?

he wasn t planning to go after those warmachines with the dragon?

Nuada
05-12-2008, 14:53
I dunno, i just play the game for fun. I'm not trying to disprove any theory about O&G. There's probably mistakes i made in the list, i've been playing 2 yrs. Alot of my friends are GW staff, we're not tournament or expert players. I get the impression i'm going to regret posting this game up. So to save any heated arguments lets just say he's the worst player ever, O&G's are terrible, and i'm lucky

Malorian
05-12-2008, 15:05
I get the impression i'm going to regret posting this game up. So to save any heated arguments lets just say he's the worst player ever, O&G's are terrible, and i'm lucky

Are you trying to make Morko Orko cry? :cries:

I see you're trying to avoid the debate, and I respect that, but all I ask is to please post more battle reports.

Nuada
05-12-2008, 15:16
I haven't played against new armies yet (DoC, vampires, DEs) The majority of my games have been against Tomb Kings and Dwarfs. So i don't know if that explains my win ratio? they're not new army books, not sure if people rate them or not

Yeah you're right i'm avoiding a debate because i'm out of my depth :D i will lose, i know my knowledge of this game is limited :)

I didn't know that about mushrooms, just reread it, you're right they do phrase it to suggest it's only one night goblin

Yeah the dragon was the closest unit Storak, i know it has to be the closest unit. He was unlucky, his dragon had 6 attacks needing 3s and 2s he only managed 3 casualties. His prince had 4 attacks, needing 3s and 2s and inflicted one. Yes you're right, he didn't have a very fast army, only 1 cav, and 3 chariots that can't march. I wouldn't have taken a dragon in that size army, but each to their own

Shimmergloom
05-12-2008, 15:32
Taking the dragon wasn't the problem, how he used the dragon was the problem.

The dragon could have wrecked havoc on your army, instead he let it land really close to the front of an infantry unit that could charge it, waaagh! to it, or spell Waagh! to it and then didn't challenge the savage boss, instead letting the full attack amount be directed at him.

I think that's why there's talk about the opponent. That's a new player mistake or the move of someone who's too overconfident in his dragon to take the time to move it onto the flanks and let it win the game for him.

Nuada
05-12-2008, 15:35
Yes, after he made all his attacks he did say... "nooooo i forgot to challenge your boss"

This is the smallest game we've had, we normally do anywhere from 3,500 to a big 7,000 at a weekend. So maybe that's why he had so many big expensive units. I can see what you mean though, he doesn't come across as clever player

Malorian
05-12-2008, 15:40
Indeed, what a fool for not expecting his dragon to be charged when the orc block was 18-20 inches away... :rolleyes:

Wouldn't have mattered if he made a challenge, you could just decline. Sure you big boss wouldn't have been able to attack, but against that much static combat res it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

Marwynn
05-12-2008, 16:00
I take it the Prince didn't get the Vambraces of Defense eh? Rerollable Armour Saves and 4+ Ward?

His dice failed him a bit, but that's ok. Funny to have a Star Dragon mostly caught unawares but hey good for the Greenskins!

For future reference what exactly was it that allowed you to move extra? Something for me to look out for (even though I don't field SD lists).

That said, his list could use some tweaking. At least you guys had some fun!

Shimmergloom
05-12-2008, 16:00
It was foolish. He knows that his opponent has the Waagh! spell so would know that his dragon was a prime target.

He had 2 lvl 2's and they weren't even scroll caddies. So he was outclassed in the magic phase, so should have been sweating bullets over the waaagh! spell and played his dragon accordingly.

Nuada
05-12-2008, 16:17
It was foolish. He knows that his opponent has the Waagh! spell so would know that his dragon was a prime target.

He had 2 lvl 2's and they weren't even scroll caddies. So he was outclassed in the magic phase, so should have been sweating bullets over the waaagh! spell and played his dragon accordingly.

Yes you're right, he should have.

The building that he deployed behind was about 10" from the edge of the table, and sat just infront of his deployment zone. I carefully positioned a chariot so he was able to charge the dragon wherever he landed if he went around the left side. (he couldn't charge me because he had no line of sight)

His options were, play it safe and fly around for a better position, or flame some wolf riders that were about to charge his bolt thrower. (he knew my wolves were out of the generals range, so i'd have to take a panic test at Ld6 with one wound)

In hindsight he should have gone for a better position, but it's easy to say that after you know the outcome. I'm guessing he was worrying about not getting the most out of a model that's about 550 ish points

Shimmergloom
05-12-2008, 16:55
yeah, I don't know why he'd risk his dragon to flame some wolfriders when a volley of shots from the machine would have likely resulted in the same result(if they were in charge range than that's short range for the volley), 6 shots hit on 3's, 4 hits, about 3 wounds with cancelled out armor.


In hindsight he should have gone for a better position, but it's easy to say that after you know the outcome. I'm guessing he was worrying about not getting the most out of a model that's about 550 ish points

While he may have been doing so, just taking out one savage unit with a flank charge nets him 330VPs and can hopefully spread some panic around to those other orc units.

It's also going to cause terror tests on LD8 max on those basic orc and goblin units, since all his has no ld9 character for the general.

It was a 6 turn game and he went for the knock out blow on turn 2.

Znail
05-12-2008, 18:48
Indeed, what a fool for not expecting his dragon to be charged when the orc block was 18-20 inches away... :rolleyes:

Wouldn't have mattered if he made a challenge, you could just decline. Sure you big boss wouldn't have been able to attack, but against that much static combat res it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

The dirt throwing does get a bit extreme here sometimes. Its amusing that the same people that claim that Orcs are so slow and Waagh doesnt help at all considers it a fatal mistake to be within 20" of an Orc infantry unit. Depending on the terrain so is it quite possible that the dragon would have to move back until its off the board if its to avoid such a possibilty at all costs.

Shimmergloom
05-12-2008, 19:10
The HE opponent could have nullified all that possibilty of getting the 20" charge off by just putting something else a little closer to the savage orcs so that they'd have to move toward them to begin with or just land out of LOS of the savages.

It's a rare thing to happen anyway and it's something that can be nullified with basic moving tactics.

It's in no way = to declare a waaagh! have to pass the animosity test without rolling a 1, then roll a 3+ to get the extra move, then he rolled a 5, then it just happened that the dragon was the closest thing the savages could see, then the savages, who aren't march blocked, or forced into charging something else due to frenzy, march, then he gets the waaagh! spell off and it's not dispelled, then he has to roll very high on 2D6 to get the charge, hope the elf lord will muff his ASF attacks, then hit and wound the elf and hope the dragon will muff his attacks, to just having basic rules like ASF or Hatred, or cause Fear/itp/unbreakable/5+ wards.

He needed to get perfect rolls and have an opponent that didn't think about doing simple things to ruin his perfect rolls. The HE player can sit back and need no rolls to get his ASF to work.

Storak
05-12-2008, 19:41
The dirt throwing does get a bit extreme here sometimes. Its amusing that the same people that claim that Orcs are so slow and Waagh doesnt help at all considers it a fatal mistake to be within 20" of an Orc infantry unit. Depending on the terrain so is it quite possible that the dragon would have to move back until its off the board if its to avoid such a possibilty at all costs.

well, Shimmergloom said it all.

in general, players who speak about O&G being a "fast" army don t fully understand the orcish movement rules and play against opponents who don t understand them either.

why weren t there any elves in that building? (horrible situation, obviously the closest target for several troops..)

Nuada
05-12-2008, 20:33
why weren t there any elves in that building? (horrible situation, obviously the closest target for several troops..)

He didn't have many foot troops. The only ones were archers on a hill behind, and SM's and archers at the other end. It wasn't lots of units that could see the dragon, there was one (the savage orc unit).

Just read Shimmerglooms post. Yes spot on, it is alot of coincidences and good rolling. What i did with the savage orc charge wasn't easy to pull off, and can be easily avoided.

Shimmergloom you know how you said only one night goblin can have magic mushrooms, i've put that question on another forum they all say lots of night goblin shamans can have them. Your quote from the O&G book was ... "A Shaman may carry any number of mushrooms" which does imply that's it's only one night goblin. I agree

However, here's a quote from the BRB concerning arcane items ... "Only a Wizard can carry an arcane item" So that means if you use your example armies may only ever have one arcane item. It also says ..."there's no limit to the number of scrolls a wizard can carry" so that means only one wizard can have multiple dispel scrolls, and you can't have two lvl 1 scroll caddies
What do you think?

Znail
05-12-2008, 20:41
Ofcourse it was somewhat lucky, but what I complained about was the mudslinging on the player for letting such a thing happen. Putting something else closer would mean that it would be even easier to get a charge in on that unit. It would also only have mattered for the first Waagh move and unless that unit was somehow in a totaly diffrent direction then the dragon (that would probboly mean that it would be right infront of the rest of the army, within charge range) so would it still have been possible to do the same thing as the slight deviation of the first move wouldnt make much diffrence.

I also have to wonder exactly what unit the HE should sacrifice to divert that Orc unit? I am quite happy to admit that it was a total missmatch of armies and the HE was fighting a uphill battle against an unexpected army list. I am sure that HE player will reconsider his list and field something else the next time as it was pretty much a lost cause from the start. He didnt have what it takes to deal with that many large infantry blocks and mass of chariots. Thus he prety much had to take some risks as playing it safe would probobly lose for sure.

Storak
05-12-2008, 20:54
Ofcourse it was somewhat lucky, but what I complained about was the mudslinging on the player for letting such a thing happen. Putting something else closer would mean that it would be even easier to get a charge in on that unit. It would also only have mattered for the first Waagh move and unless that unit was somehow in a totaly diffrent direction then the dragon (that would probboly mean that it would be right infront of the rest of the army, within charge range) so would it still have been possible to do the same thing as the slight deviation of the first move wouldnt make much diffrence.

it makes a world of a difference. moving DIRECTLY towards the closest visible target, typically means wheeling first. getting into 8 inch, would force frenzy troops to charge and would march block other units.

with the prospect of this happening (and even a single big orc unit on the flank exposing its flank to a charging dragon..), the orc player wouldn t call a waagh.

he wouldn t cast the waagh either, if it could force several chariots into terrain, or even only bump them against a building with some archers in it...

the last time i looked at the HE book, it included some eagles. some players consider fast cav to be a useful choice...

Fredmans
06-12-2008, 10:05
@OP: Do not feel bad for posting your report and congratulations on your win.

It is always strangely dissatisfying when someone concedes in turn 2. I know I would have called for a re-match immediately, but you were probably out of time (or high elf models for army modification?).

Battle reports like these go to show that whole battles can be won or lost due to an unlikely chain of events. No one can be expected to consider all such options beforehand, just because some players do.

I will remember this battle as the "The savage blitz on the napping elven prince behind the barn" :D

/Fredmans

cicero
06-12-2008, 20:05
As a high elf player i have to say well done.Nuada you are obviously a very good player i hope you keep posting your reports as it helps all the orc players who use this site and hopefully makes for better games for everyone.i personally wouldnt have chosen that army list but huh i ve picked some shocking lists in my time as i think we all have .your list backed up what mal said and it showed the versatility of orcs and gobbos.keep up the good work

Lijacote
09-12-2008, 16:32
How many pages of "no matter what, the HE player sucks that's why O&G won there is no other explanation" will we get?

Oh and yeah, I liked the report. Easy to read and entertaining.

EvC
09-12-2008, 17:10
It was an entertaining report, yes :)

I've faced similar High Elf opponents before- and let me tell you, when someone puts down a Star Dragon, minimum core and 4 RBT, they are expecting an easy ride. Typical High Elf arrogance, if you will :D It's not surprising that with a bit of handy luck the Orcs capitalised and murdered the Elves. Cool army list as well- it's rare to see an Orc army with zero warmachines, so this was an occasion where getting the Waaaagh! spell off was always going to be really handy. Love seeing such a great level of focus and gameplan :)

Embalmed
09-12-2008, 17:33
Congratz on the win Nuada.

I don't know why people are getting so upset at the HE player not getting everything right, I haven't played a single game where I didn't at some point think 'arghhh I shouldn't have moved that unit there', hindsight:20:20, foresight: practically blind ;), and it's not just me and that HE player, it's everyone to some extent.

I quite often get blindsided by Whaagh extra move too, both from the spell and from the Animostity, what can I say I'm human ;)

Nuada
09-12-2008, 22:46
It's not that they're getting upset by the HE player. It's because there was an ongoing thread about O&G's not being a competitive army. I didn't intend this post to become embroiled in it, but it did for a while. Nevermind though :)

Shimmergloom
09-12-2008, 22:58
Well some people think that you rolling a 3+ for your savages during the Waaagh!, then having an HE opponent who landed his Dragon in LOS of your troops and assuring that it was the closest thing that your troops could see, so that they would move toward that, where you wanted them to move, instead of moving where the HE player would want you to move, then rolling a 5 for your distance, then not being marched blocked or having a diverter that would force the savages to charge them instead, then being able to cast the Waaagh! spell and again have that dragon be the closest thing the savages could see, then rolling a 9 so that the savages could make the charge. Having a HE player who did not flee and also did not offer a challenge to face less attacks. And then flubbed their rolls so that you won easily and flubbed his flee roll so that you could catch and destroy him while fleeing, makes greenskins a competitive army that can compete with everyone and are every bit as equal in power as army wide ASF, Hatred, unbreakable fear causing troops, 25 power dice armies and any other game breaking rules they come up with before 8th edition.

So yeah, this was an agrument waiting to happen.

Nuada
09-12-2008, 23:55
stuff

I wasn't arguing that O&G's were good, i was just describing a battle i'd had that night. I agree the O&G book isn't as strong as other armies in the game. You have to live with it for a while.

I don't see why you're crying about the savage orcs reaching the dragon. On turn 2... i waaagh, then move, then cast waagh! so my max move is 26". The dragon was the closest unit only 18" away. The reason he's the closest unit is because he has archers near him, bolt throwers and a chariot with mage in it.

You've also put "rolling a 9 so that the savage orcs can make the charge" I assume you mean taking a terror test??? Savage orcs are frenzied, they are immune to psychology. Also, when you charge via the waaagh spell, or by a waaagh you avoid the need to take psychology tests.

You've stated that you think i'm lucky rolling a 3 or more on a 6-sided die.
Let me point out some bad luck i had; on the 1st turn in the magic phase i roll 4d6 and miscast, on the 2nd turn only 2 out of a possible 8 units waagh, attempting to waaagh my last wolf rider unit rolls a 1 i take d6 wounds i roll a 6 so that's all 5 dead, i use the horn of urgok and roll a 1 taking a str5 hit, one NG uses a mushroom rolls a 1 another miscast.


The point you keep repeating is he made a fatal error landing a dragon 18" away from an infantry unit, and in LOS. A few other posts on here have voiced their opinion that it would have caught them by surprise as well.


I have never once stated that O&G's are a great army, or in any way superior to the High Elf army.
This game uses dice, there is a random element within the game, unusual things can happen.

Djekar
10-12-2008, 07:37
I also routinely beat a HE player with my O&G, but on the whole he is not the greatest player (not that I am, but a difference in ability is a difference in ability, even if the better general still isn't "good"), and I have been a bit hesitant to put up the battle reports for this reason - I don't really wanna start the War of Doom!
All in all though, congrats on a win, and those were some darn lucky dice to get you killing that Star Dragon ... er... Lord guy. Kudos!

~Baroque

Nuada
10-12-2008, 09:04
I also routinely beat a HE player with my O&G, but on the whole he is not the greatest player .....I have been a bit hesitant to put up the battle reports for this reason

That's a similar situation with me, he's been playing WHFB for 2 years, i started in 1988. There's a difference of experience.
You shouldn't feel bullied not to put up battle reports, but i know how you feel

Harwammer
10-12-2008, 22:59
I bet that guy was thinking 'damn, I wish I had bought a scroll instead of that crappy dragon' :p

Congratulations on the win.

I do hate it when people take a 600vp model, get stung and then quit the game immediately.

If you can't handel losing such a valuable model don't play with it or you just look like it is your crutch.

That said, from the sounds of things, it was fairly lucky to get so much movement off! I suppose now we know a pro for the orcs; a threat range of 20 for infantry units :D

Nuada
10-12-2008, 23:04
I bet that guy was thinking 'damn, I wish I had bought a scroll instead of that crappy dragon' :p

That would be one hell of a scroll for 370 points!!! :D

Harwammer
10-12-2008, 23:13
That would be one hell of a scroll for 370 points!!! :D

or a scroll and a smaller dragon :D

Embalmed
11-12-2008, 11:42
/.../
So yeah, this was an argument waiting to happen.

Hmmm I still think it's unfair. Most good charges can be broken down like that and made to look soooo lucky, like 'Yeah you didn't get marchblocked there and then your opponent didn't redirect that previous charge very cleverly and there just happened to be no terrain and your opponent left his unit standing there in charge range etc etc'

So he got himself into a good position and used it, is that so unique? And maybe the dragon didn't want to flee on account of being too close to the table edge?

Grinloc
11-12-2008, 20:36
Hmmm I still think it's unfair. Most good charges can be broken down like that and made to look soooo lucky, like 'Yeah you didn't get marchblocked there and then your opponent didn't redirect that previous charge very cleverly and there just happened to be no terrain and your opponent left his unit standing there in charge range etc etc'

So he got himself into a good position and used it, is that so unique? And maybe the dragon didn't want to flee on account of being too close to the table edge?

It's not really the point of being unfair or not. Afterall it depends on someone's gaming experiences and more importantly on the behaviour of the opponent who is willing to exploit the intended advantages of animosity and/or the "waaagh" spell.

When it comes to my own experiences as an O&G's player my most frequent opponents (bunch of long time friends and WH players) insisted on exploiting it on every possible occasion. It's simply just tactics really, opponents' increasing their chances to win the battle and there is nothing "lame" or "poor sport" about it.

If i managed to pull something off like this against a highly mobile unit like a dragon then, yes, it would have been nothing but luck.
I never managed to pull off such a "dragon situation", simply because my opponents never made it possible by proper unit placement. It's not that i didn't try...
Those "unfair" people may have similar experiences, but at the end of the day it is the shoody design of the O&G's special rules which is the unfair part of it all and certainly not the players. What may seem to some as "downplaying the great accomplishments of an O&G's player" is in reality the lack of unit support/movement tactics of his opponent. If those special rules were properly thought through and implemented we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

Additionally...the star dragon may be big, tough and scary, but using it without proper HE unit support (especially against a higher skilled opponent) isn't a wise thing to do. Same goes for units like bloodthirsters, to a lesser extent of course.

belail146
01-01-2009, 15:54
y would he but so much pionts into a dragon which he could have just taken a sun dragon and dragon armor and the blade of sea gold which allows no armor saves, and 4 bolt throwers! you only need two, and never put a mage on a tirinoc chariot he'll get killed instantly!

cicero
02-01-2009, 16:59
everyone plays the game differently.If the HE player had won the dragon would have been a masterstroke.and for the record i prefer the sword of hoeth against orcs to the blade of sea gold.

Neckutter
03-01-2009, 06:37
i take a dragon with a prince and he does fine. he march blocks, the dragon breaths. he is huge points denial, and he hunts down enemy warmachines. orcs and their magic is just really powerful with the waagh spell and 'ed butt.

i know storak likes to downplay it alot, but O+Gs are competitive if you go magic-heavy.

oh, and by the way, orcs DONT get the ASF rule with the waagh spell. they strike first in the ensuing HtH phase, because they "charged". if your orc unit is already engaged then they do not get to strike first per a rulesboy.

Djekar
03-01-2009, 07:36
First ...

damn, I wish I had bought a scroll instead of that crappy dragon
I lol'd at this. I've had that thought before, and it seemed a bit out of place then too.

Second: Neck, did you just suggest heavy magic in an O&G army? Whatever would we do for LD then? I'm so scared to get out of my LD9 bubble! I needz it or I will explode. That happens to me sometimes... especially with magic heavy armies. Although this could all be reactionary from the times the Screaming Bell has run off my Shaman Lord on a Boar with a first turn Cav Panic ring...:chrome:

Alas, fair Shaman, I knew thee not at all. Sniff.

~Carrot

Nuada
03-01-2009, 11:36
oh, and by the way, orcs DONT get the ASF rule with the waagh spell. they strike first in the ensuing HtH phase, because they "charged". if your orc unit is already engaged then they do not get to strike first per a rulesboy.

Are you sure that's right?

The Waaagh! spell says "In addition, all friendly units strike first in the next phase of close combat and can re-roll any misses that phase"

That implies that even units already engaged in close combat can re-roll misses and have ASF

It doesn't mention, if they are already in combat they don't gain this benefit

Avian
03-01-2009, 11:51
They do get the Always Strike First rule that phase (always strike first once, heh!), regardless of whether they charge or not.

SevenSins
03-01-2009, 17:38
A nice rep and a swift combat, running 4 pump wagons is one of the reasons I may have to start O&G :)

(I didn't bother to read the 3 pages of whining though ;) does O&G winning always get these responses here?)

Nuada
03-01-2009, 18:27
Yeah i like pump wagons as well, i've got 6. I think they're a bargain for 40 points and a two for one choice :)