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Gen.Ruckus
05-12-2008, 06:14
I was wondering if anyone used or uses one now for a mount for the lord? Its a pretty good monster, but for 200 points is it efective? I never used one, and was thinking about taking one for my army, is there any bret players using a hippogryph?

Lord Dan
05-12-2008, 06:29
I don't use one, primarily because it costs almost as much as a fully loaded unit of KoTR. If I were to use it:

Bret Lord
Grail vow, grail shield (to give both him and the hippogryph a 4+ ward)

Then take your normal goodies on top of that. I would keep him in a unit of KoTR, and simply use his ground movement to move around with them. You can always charge out of the unit if you become too tempted.

Helveticus
05-12-2008, 08:08
The Grail Shield doesn't give the mount a 4+ ward.

You can't join someone on a flying mount to anything, ground troops or otherwise.

Lord Dan
05-12-2008, 08:39
The Grail Shield doesn't give the mount a 4+ ward.

You can't join someone on a flying mount to anything, ground troops or otherwise.

Grail shield:
Bearer's ward save gained from the blessing of the lady is increased to a 4+.

Cross referencing the rules for the blessing of the lady found on page 45, you'll note that the blessing affects the mount of any affected model. So, yes, it would. :)

I'm also fairly certain the BRB only specifies that models on flying mounts may not join flying units, however I've never actually done this in game.

Helveticus
05-12-2008, 08:43
Models on flying mounts may not ever join any unit period. Its one of the first things I thought of too. I don't have my BRB with me tonight, but its in there, and somewhat tricky to find.

BEARER'S ward save to 4+. The Hypo is not the bearer, thus he only gets the Blessing, not the Grail Shield Blessing.

cleansingfury
05-12-2008, 16:02
Models on flying mounts may not ever join any unit period. Its one of the first things I thought of too. I don't have my BRB with me tonight, but its in there, and somewhat tricky to find.

BEARER'S ward save to 4+. The Hypo is not the bearer, thus he only gets the Blessing, not the Grail Shield Blessing.

I have my books with me at the moment so will clarify.

The wording of the shield says: Bearer's ward save from blessing of the lady is now 4+ instead of the normal ward save.

Then the blessign states that it also affects the mount of any affected model. Then in () it says hypos and pegs etc gain blessing while rider is affected.

The BGB says a character cannot join a unit of... flyers, even if the character can fly they cannot join them. So hypo in unit of kotn giving the hypo and character a 4+ ward save works.

Hurray for nothing better to do at school...

As for the original question, I will be once I up my army over the 2k point mark in a few months...

Malorian
05-12-2008, 16:06
There's no reason to join him to a unit (and I'm still farily sure he can't) because he's a large target and can be targetted by enemy magic and shooting anyway.

All you could be doing is giving the cannon ball more to kill on the bounce.

kramplarv
05-12-2008, 17:30
And monsters may not join units... :)

Gen.Ruckus
05-12-2008, 17:38
Yeah, the hippo is a monster, and I haven't used one yet, I haven't used pegasus knights either, but that's for another thread, I just wanted to see if it would be a good addition to my army, we play 2250 or more in the shop where I play, so the points wouldn't be a problem, so I was thinking of arming him with the grail shield, sword of the lady and tress of isoulde and have him hunt the enemies general, is that a good combo?

Malorian
05-12-2008, 17:43
He's not worth it. Look at the points you spend on him and compare to how many regular knights you could get for him.

The grail shield will also bring up an arguement and in the end it still won't stop your hippogryph from being shot down.

If you take a lord, take him on a horse. If you even take a lord I like the silver lance/virtue of the ideal combo. It give 5 autohitting str 6 attacks, and even after the charge (since you keep using magical lances after the charge) you still autohit.

Sifal
05-12-2008, 17:45
Flying stuff can never ever join units at all for any reason. character mounted mosters such as carnosaur may join units becasue they are not flying. unmounted monsters cannot join units.... for instance a stegadon cannot join a unit..... a stegadon with a skink character in the howdah can. flying mounsters or mounts CANNOT join units.

I think the reason a hippogryoh is not a wise choice is because you take you generals leadership away from the center of the army, they're not as good as dragons and a bretonnian lord isn't hard enough to take on ranked units by himself. peg knights are there to do the flying, bretonnians need the lord leadership for as many units as possible. However, in 3000pt games a hippogryph can be an excellent addition.

kramplarv
05-12-2008, 17:49
Stegadons may not join units either. Mosnters may not join units. Regardless of their rider they are still a monster.

And also the rules says that characters riding flying creatures may not join units.

And 200pts for M20 Terror, rank breaker etc are a very cheap and good buy. It's all about your style of play. Hippo+pegasus paladin will probably kill off any unit they encounter. Most of times.

Sifal
05-12-2008, 18:05
stegadons the monster cannot join units. stegadons with a skink character is listed as a mount and not a monster and may join units. it's the same for corpse carts, daemonic mounts etc... they can be in a unit so as long as they are mounted by a character, if the character riding said daemonic mount or corpse cart dies then the monstrous mount immediately leaves the unit.

Lord Dan
05-12-2008, 18:15
The grail shield will also bring up an arguement and in the end it still won't stop your hippogryph from being shot down.

I'm certainly not arguing the hippogryph's worth, however I'm failing to see an argument with regard to the hippogryph not recieving the 4+ ward (assuming that is what you meant by this post).

Malorian
05-12-2008, 18:28
Some will argue that although the hippogryph gets the blessing since it is ridden by a model that has the blessing (no one will argue that), that only the rider's blessing is modified by the shield since it effects only the bearer.

Lord Dan
05-12-2008, 18:44
Some will argue that although the hippogryph gets the blessing since it is ridden by a model that has the blessing (no one will argue that), that only the rider's blessing is modified by the shield since it effects only the bearer.

I see your point, but I still see no issue. The grail shield quite specifically affects the bearer's blessing of the lady save. It doesn't say: "In addition to his blessing of the lady save, the bearer has a 4+ ward save". As the rules for the blessing of the lady on pg 45 state that the mount recieves the blessing of its rider (in this case, a 4+), I would hope there isn't as much room for argument as you're implying.

I don't know why I'm arguing this point so much, though. It's not like I even use the stupid bird. :p

PARTYCHICORITA
05-12-2008, 19:10
Page 72 of the rule book, last paragraph: Characters on flying mounts can't join units.

As for the Grail shield it was cover a long time ago by the bret FAQ (Second page, First question): The mount gets the blessing, not the character's blessing so it's just 6+/5+ even if the rider has the Grail shield.

Lord Dan
05-12-2008, 19:55
Page 72 of the rule book, last paragraph: Characters on flying mounts can't join units.

As for the Grail shield it was cover a long time ago by the bret FAQ (Second page, First question): The mount gets the blessing, not the character's blessing so it's just 6+/5+ even if the rider has the Grail shield.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure about the ruling on flying mounts joining units, and the FAQ was helpful.

Gen.Ruckus
05-12-2008, 20:55
Well then the grail shield is less helpful, its time to pick another piece of magic armor, I'm thinking gilded cuirass for the lords regen or armour of midsummer sun which gives both the lord and mount a -1 modifier to hit from missle weapons and combat, which I think midsummer sun has a better ability

Malorian
05-12-2008, 20:59
I wouldn't bother with armor at all. Just heavy armor and shield for a 4+ plus you blessing.

If you are going to bother to have this guy you might as well make him useful.

Hell you could give him a 3+ rerollable save if you wantd to, but really if any shooting comes his way it's the hippogryph that is going to bite it first and then that lord is left on foot.

So make him offensive as possible so you can smash him into units and get some of those points back.

Either that or keep him simple with just the basic lance and shield to keep him cheap, thus reducing how much damage you need to cause to make him worth it.

kramplarv
05-12-2008, 21:19
stegadons the monster cannot join units. stegadons with a skink character is listed as a mount and not a monster and may join units. it's the same for corpse carts, daemonic mounts etc... they can be in a unit so as long as they are mounted by a character, if the character riding said daemonic mount or corpse cart dies then the monstrous mount immediately leaves the unit.

nope. A guy mounted on a chariot is still riding a chariot. A guy riding on a monster is still riding on a monster. Or else I will claim that my chariot does not suffer from S7 autokill until the character are dead...

In the case of corpse cart they are not monsters. they just move as monsters.
In the case of demonic mounts, they are classed as cavalry.

Sifal
05-12-2008, 22:59
nope. A guy mounted on a chariot is still riding a chariot. A guy riding on a monster is still riding on a monster. Or else I will claim that my chariot does not suffer from S7 autokill until the character are dead...

In the case of corpse cart they are not monsters. they just move as monsters.
In the case of demonic mounts, they are classed as cavalry.

You are more than welcome to look up about monsters as mounts if you wish in the rulebook and subsequent FAQ. a corpse cart moves as monster which means it can't join units. It definately can if there is a necromancer on it. check the VC FAQ. A stegadon can also join unit if mounted by a character like a carnosaur can. the whole issue falls into a grey area between a monster and mount classification but was cleared up in official faq. if a non fying monster can be taken as a mount it can join units.
on your chariot analogy, it states that a S7 hit will destroy it specifically. seeing as it is not a monster the rules for being mounted on a monster do not apply to it.

Kahadras
05-12-2008, 23:45
Back when I used to play Bretonnians I prefered using a Paladin on a Pegasus. Keep him fairly cheap by giving him the Enchanted Shield, heavy armour and a lance. That gives him a 3+ armour save and allows him to hit hard on the charge. Then just use him to march block or hunt down enemy warmachines/missile units. He's cheap and should cause a lot of agro.

Kahadras

happy_doctor
06-12-2008, 00:34
Although I'm not a Bretonnian player, if I were to use the hippogryph, i'd take the following into consideration:

-The monster will most likely die before the battle is over. Given the amount of missile fire Monstrous mounts attract, there's a good chance the Lord riding it will bite the dust as well. I'd give him the virtue of the Ideal, thus preventing him from being the general and saving you the extra +100 VP's he'd give away.

-You'll need to give him a specific task and arm him accordingly. I wouldn't use him as a simple warmachine hunter, there's pegasus knights and yeomen for that. With the D3 Wound sword (vs To5+), he might be able to go toe-to-toe with big monsters. Malorian's suggestion is a good one as well. Ever thought of giving him the firewyrm lance (one-use only breath weapon).

-In order for a monstrous mount to be successful, you'll need to base a portion of our army and strategy on him. He's an excellent rank breaker, can tackle enemy knights (which can trouble your heavy cavalry) and all he needs is a little static CR support to win the fight.

-Tress of Isoulde can help against rubber-lance syndrome (lack of static CR means that if he doesn't cause casualties, he'll be legging it).

-He's US5, thus can crossfire units that opt to flee from your lances.

Just some thoughts

teos40k
06-12-2008, 00:42
In the bretonnian faq, it states that the items bonuses do not confer to the mount. The mount does get the regular 5+ ward save, but the grail shield's bonus only helps the rider, not the mount.

teos40k
06-12-2008, 00:46
the hippogryph is pretty useful to serve as rank negator and it can spook armies with leadership problems. However, if you compare it with the star dragon, its a joke when it comes to the cost/effectiveness.

Gen.Ruckus
06-12-2008, 06:02
I see you're points, and I will just try to use him in a game, I have 3 games coming up in a few days, and I know my opponents armies, chaos, empire and high elves, the high elf player is bringing a dragon for sure, at 2500 points and the other two games are at 2250, so I will try the hippo lord and see how that goes, I will also use a pegasus pally to help out

teos40k
06-12-2008, 11:24
give your pega pallie virtue of heroism and direct all your attacks against the dragon.

kramplarv
06-12-2008, 16:47
You are more than welcome to look up about monsters as mounts if you wish in the rulebook and subsequent FAQ. a corpse cart moves as monster which means it can't join units. It definately can if there is a necromancer on it. check the VC FAQ.

yeah, I might be stupid. But as i read in BRB it says the monstrous mount follows the "movement" as monsters. But it does not say that a mounted whatever suddenly ceases to be a monster.

And looking at monster rules they say that monsters are forbidden to join units.
Point me to the rules saying that mounted monsters are not monsters but merely mounts. A monster who is ridden are still a monster, since there a definitaion between ridden and unridden monster in rules. A monster who happens to be a cahracter are still a monster. There are no single rule that permits carnosaurs/stegadons etc to join units. They are monsters. Until a rule says they are not.



The corpse cart can join units since it is not a monster. It is even specified as a "not a creature or chariot" and it moves and fights as a monster. But it is NOT a monster. That's why it can join units when it is a mount.

Gen.Ruckus
06-12-2008, 18:01
I really don't care about joining my hippo to another unit, most of the time he's going to be flying around killing things in combat, so a unit isn't necessary, I would rather have him fly around and causing terror and flank or rear charging folks

Sifal
06-12-2008, 18:04
yeah, I might be stupid. But as i read in BRB it says the monstrous mount follows the "movement" as monsters. But it does not say that a mounted whatever suddenly ceases to be a monster.

And looking at monster rules they say that monsters are forbidden to join units.
Point me to the rules saying that mounted monsters are not monsters but merely mounts. A monster who is ridden are still a monster, since there a definitaion between ridden and unridden monster in rules. A monster who happens to be a cahracter are still a monster. There are no single rule that permits carnosaurs/stegadons etc to join units. They are monsters. Until a rule says they are not.



The corpse cart can join units since it is not a monster. It is even specified as a "not a creature or chariot" and it moves and fights as a monster. But it is NOT a monster. That's why it can join units when it is a mount.

I'm not near a rulebook at the moment but if i remember correctly the following things are true:

a creature with two wounds or more is a monster

monsters cannot join units

mounts can join units

there are both monsters and mounts that are creatures with 2 or more wounds. if said 2+ wounds creature is unridden by a character it is classified as a monster and can't join units. if it is ridden by a character it is classified as a mount and can join units. such examples would be tyrions horse and the enchantress' unicorn. These are both monsters by classification but mounts in practice and can join units. a carnosaur is no different from either of these these things just more wounds.


you are correct in stating that the moster section of the rulebook does say explicitly that monsters can't join units. the ruebook contradicts itself however i think in the characters section saying that mounted characters can join units, so long as the mount can't fly.

as i remember an faq cleared it up saying mounted doesn't just mean a horse.

I'm feeling a bit shaky now that i think about stegadons though becasue they are in the army list as a unit entry and a mount option for a skink character rather than a monster that is only a mount option. i'm pretty sure they can still join units when mounted by a character however.

kramplarv
06-12-2008, 18:24
Well, there is a section in the character part of the rules saying that characters mounted on monsters follow monster movement rules. I looked in the Rule book errata and it does not mention that monsters that are mounted may follow normal mounted rules.

Looking up the Corpsecart is says specifically that is not a monster. It just moves as one. Therefore the corpse cart has no rule to prohibit it from joining units.

And how i ever look there are no rule where it is stated that mounted monsters are not monsters anymore. but indeed as written before, there are a clear definitions of ridden and unridden monster. So there are as far as I can tell no rule to back up the claim that a mounted monster will not follow normal monster rules.

A carnosaur has more than a single wound, then he is a monster. He may be mounted. Then he is a ridden monster. But he is also a mount. But, he still follow the monster rules since he is still a monster. The "mount" does not negate the "monster" rule.

So he can't join a unit. Nor can stegadons, Or Valtens horse... Or that ninjahorse of the high elves. Unless they have some special rule?

So anyway, until someone can point me to an rule or a passage in the BRB/Errata saying that mounted monsters are not monsters anymore, I will ever allow anyone having their Stegadon/carnosaur in a unit.

kramplarv
06-12-2008, 18:27
I really don't care about joining my hippo to another unit, most of the time he's going to be flying around killing things in combat, so a unit isn't necessary, I would rather have him fly around and causing terror and flank or rear charging folks

which is the Best idea since he would not be protected in a unit either :p US5+ may be targeted for shooting even if they are within a unit. :)

200pts for terror and M20 are very cheap. DO IT!

Sifal
06-12-2008, 18:35
which is the Best idea since he would not be protected in a unit either :p US5+ may be targeted for shooting even if they are within a unit. :)

200pts for terror and M20 are very cheap. DO IT!

Well a hippogrypph can never join a unit anyway cos its flying.

so Kramplarv, would you not let an oppenent put tyrion in a unit of cavalry? or the enchantress in a unit of grail knights?

how many wounds does a wood elf stag have?

Gen.Ruckus
06-12-2008, 18:52
The enchantress can be in a unit, she can buy grail knights as a bodyguard, and the stag has 3 wounds, I wouldn't care for joining units like I said before, getting flank and rear charges are more important

kramplarv
06-12-2008, 19:34
Sifal:

Nope. I would not. And I would not allow for exampe HoC dudes on deamonic steed to join units. No problem anymore since they now are cavlary :p But back then.

Gen.Ruckus
06-12-2008, 21:22
Well, I didn't want this to be a thread on argueing a rule, and the rule doesn't interest me regardless, I'm not planning on joining a unit, I want him to fly off and be badass, terror, fear and smashing into rank and file units with my lord will break most units on the charge, and that's what I'm looking for, I didn't want a flying hippogryph lord joining a unit of knights, I do have other models doing that already, I just wanted help with the efectivness of a hippo lord

kramplarv
06-12-2008, 22:05
Yeah, and the first..7 posts helped you with that. So the topic is now already answered...

Gen.Ruckus
07-12-2008, 01:57
Someones an *******, dont take it out on me because you don't know the rules, read the book and get things right, because you said you wouldn't let someone put an enchantress in a unit of knights, she has a mount that has 3 wounds, AND can buy a unit of grail knights to ride with her

Lord Dan
07-12-2008, 02:44
Someones an *******

Yes, someone is.

Sifal
07-12-2008, 02:58
Gen.Ruckus, apologies for the post becoming a rules debate but thank you for pointing out that the enchantress is riding a monster and can have a unit of bodyguard.

kramplarv, I hope the rule is clear for you now. if not lets just leave this thread alone and start a new thread about it in the rules section if you want to discuss it more. in the mean time you really have to let tyrion, elf lord on stag etc join units if you play against them. there was a thread about a week ago i think in the genreal fantasy discussion bit about necros on corpse carts where the whole issue was discussed if you want to look that up.

kramplarv
07-12-2008, 22:12
I couldn't care less about having wrong if someone took the time to show me that I'm wrong. But the lack of "evidence" in me having wrong are disturbing. Not yet has anyone posted a link to an actual rule that says I'm wrong, then I will change opinioen,. But the more I read the more I am convinced that Steggies,carnosaurs etc are big nono in units. Same with old daemonic mounts, stags, and such.

And the enchantress was an pure example... Exchange enchantress with mounted stegadons.

And you sir Ruckus are most rude. Asking for advice on using hippogryphs, people answered your topic with solid advice. And then the topic changed subject since it was answered. It is very a very nasty thing to do then to call other persons a-holes when discussing, especially since your OP was answered.

Gen.Ruckus
08-12-2008, 15:17
People answered my post with good advice, but that didn't change the fact you are an *******, probably an un-enjoyable person to play against, and most likely the guy at your shop people tell not to play, which I would understand.

kramplarv
08-12-2008, 15:38
That could be the truth if I would hav ebeen someone else... but the truth is, I am the guy with most sportsmanship prizes awarded in my region. And I do not believe that I'm an *******. I just want someone to show that I'm wrong. Prove that I am wrong, and I can change my mind.

And in my shop, I am the most recommended veteran for new guys to talk with since I am a very nice person. But it is not very nice of you good Sir to call me an ******* because I answered your topic, and when it was answered by many, we went on with a very friendly rules debate. I agree that the debate should be in rules part of the forum, but I still think you have a very rude manner calling me an *******.

Sifal
08-12-2008, 15:53
thread started in the rules section now discussing monstrous mounts in units.

kramplarv
08-12-2008, 16:14
yes, I answered that as well :)

Gen.Ruckus
08-12-2008, 16:56
Yeah, I'm sure you are the sportsman of the year

kramplarv
08-12-2008, 17:08
You are aware that there is an distinction between discussing rules and being an enjoyable player?

Would you allow anyone you played against to break rules during the game? now I had wrong in this particular case..but in general. And is it bad sports to not allow to break rules during play?

Malorian
08-12-2008, 18:46
I would suggest that the OP closes this thread himself before the mods do it for him...

Lord Dan
08-12-2008, 18:54
I would suggest that the OP closes this thread himself before the mods do it for him...

QFT. Seriously, name calling?

teos40k
09-12-2008, 04:45
******* is a common perk amongst us human beings... heh

Psiryu
09-12-2008, 23:15
I couldn't care less about having wrong if someone took the time to show me that I'm wrong. But the lack of "evidence" in me having wrong are disturbing. Not yet has anyone posted a link to an actual rule that says I'm wrong, then I will change opinioen,. But the more I read the more I am convinced that Steggies,carnosaurs etc are big nono in units. Same with old daemonic mounts, stags, and such.

And the enchantress was an pure example... Exchange enchantress with mounted stegadons.

And you sir Ruckus are most rude. Asking for advice on using hippogryphs, people answered your topic with solid advice. And then the topic changed subject since it was answered. It is very a very nasty thing to do then to call other persons a-holes when discussing, especially since your OP was answered.

Try this; page 58 "Monsters always fight individually; they can never join other models to form a unit, except when the are ridden by a character"

Further proof; chaos characters on daemonic mounts, as seen through Archaon, are able to join units. Daemonic mounts in this rule set arenít really monsters (one wound, not being able to be targeted ect) however in the old rules they definitely where and they still could join units.

Also the Slann is apparently a monster and it can join units, though this could be argued as the Slann is a character first, before being a monster.

Gen.Ruckus
10-12-2008, 17:15
Well after a few games with the hippo lord, he is pretty beastly, but when he gets into combat, the mount gets swung on,is there any other better ways to protect the mount other than the midsummer sun armor, -1 to hit modifier helps, but I see that's the only protection the hippogryph gets

Neknoh
10-12-2008, 17:59
Nopes, no other options than to kill everything in base to base I'm afraid.

However, for doing just that, might I suggest something allong the lines of

Bretonnian Lord
- Hippogryph, Virtue of Knightly Temper, The Silver Lance of the Blessed, Cuirass of Fortune, Gauntlet of the Duel, Shield

Forgive me if I misread the virtue points, I do not fully understand the wording of the rule, and this is the first time I am putting together a bretonnian character. Should this work, this fellow will be throwing out 4 strength 6 hits on his charge, rerolling all 1's to wound, meaning he will most likely rack up another 4 strength 6 hits for around 6-8 wounds from his side... and that is not counting the hippo.

In future rounds, he's still striking at the enemy with a strength of 4, although, there shouldn't really be any "further rounds" against as good as every infantry unit out there should you get to their flank.

Malorian
10-12-2008, 18:15
Virtues count to your point limit so that combo isn't possible. (Otherwise everyone would be taking it.)

Neknoh
10-12-2008, 18:30
ach, was afraid of that, then the virtue is to be dropped, however, I still believe the item combo in itself can well prove useful against rank and file

Gen.Ruckus
10-12-2008, 22:33
The only other way I can think of protecting him is to have pegasus knights follow him sort of like a bodyguard, and a lore of life damsel on a horse, hoping to roll a 3 and get the gift of life spell follow them around and that might work, although that's a lot of variables with the damsel