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Chicago Slim
07-12-2008, 00:55
So, I've been collecting orcs and goblins since 4th ed, when the gobbos came in the box (along with high elves, some of which I still have in service as well!) Always struggled to get much life out of them-- I just seldom seemed to get them to reliably do much.

Recently, I came upon a long-overdue revelation: I've always sort of neglected goblins (because of, you know, them sucking and everything) and relied on orc boyz to get it done-- especially those 'ard 'itting Big Uns and Black Orcs. So, I was blowing TONS of points trying to tool up orcs into solid fighters who could go toe-to-toe with other elite infantry, and was always disappointed in their performance.

So, lately I've started hordeing it up more, and I've been pretty happy with it. Today, I played 3000 points vs. Daemons. I brought 4 units of 20 night goblins each, with 1-2 fanatics per, plus small units of squig herd and savages, plus 2 huge blocks of 28 boyz each (these led by Black Orc commanders, with the Battleaxe of the Last Waaagh! and Mork's War Banner), and 3 units of arrer boyz, AND a bunch of artillery, AND 3 chariots, plus 2 pump wagons, 3 shamen, and a troll, just to round things out.


Despite losing my Black Orc Warboss (the general) and his big unit of Boyz to a terror test on turn 2 (rolled a 10, fled off the field), I ended up obliterating every last model my enemy brought.


So, I know it's kind of obvious, but I'm just delighted to have finally figured it out. "What do you bring as a greenskin army?"

"Everything. And lots of it."

w3rm
07-12-2008, 01:12
Yes, varied goblin and orc armies tend to win more than just orcs or just goblin armies!

knightime98
08-12-2008, 04:01
It is my opinion that the O&G can not take the charge.
Generally speaking - they do not have the armor nor the movement to get the charge.
Sure, they have the random Waagh thingy but you can also have animosity.
Orcs are definitely on my do not play list. I have 4 other armies to play with and have been doing so - and having much much fun in the process.

Seems to me that GW pulled their teeth out in 7th Edition... I'm waiting for the dentist to put them back in!

Chicago Slim
08-12-2008, 11:32
The bit that worked on Saturday, and allowed me to get charged and still win, was that I threw cheap, expendable units out in front, aligned such that the break-and-pursuit wasn't going to bring him into the fight he wanted next.

So, he's stuck with charging a 40-115 point unit, then being countercharged by a ranked up unit. Even when it was a ranked-up unit of night goblins (led by a guy with a half-decent Leadership), it worked. Actually, a single night goblin unit, making its fear test on turn 3, hit the flank of a unit of Daemonettes, who had already lost a lot of guys to fanatics and a previous fight, so there were only 5 Daemonettes left. I crushed them with static CR, and rolled onward, into the Masque, whom I challenged with a Great Shaman (with the Amulet of Protectyness, taking on Masque's 3+ ward!) The Amulet shut down Masque's firepower, and I crushed her with static CR, and rolled on in to the rear of the Bloodthirster (which was in the flank of my Orc Boyz, who were standing up to him fairly well-- having lost the previous round of combat, but held...) With the extra 5 points of static CR that the goblins brought to that fight, I crushed the Bloodthirster, too.

That's about 1000 points, earned by one unit of night goblins, with a shaman in it (but he could have as easily been a hero with the AoP, instead).

The trick was, having several units in the area, ready to do that same job, if the Night Goblins had failed to...

Sedge
08-12-2008, 12:42
I really have to say, for years I have been reading how rubbish O&G are, how they never 'do it' against the new powerfull armies and how they must have an update NOW. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!

O&G are an army that rewards clever plays, good army selection and good dice :)

The key to winning is the clever use of fanatics. I read and reread Avians tactica on the subject till it was imprinted on subconcience. There is nothing that Orcs cann't stand up to with a handy supporting unit of NGs 5-6" behind them.

Let me explain. If the NGs are in said position the Orcs are then charged. As soon as the charger is 2-3" from the front of the orcs and 8" from the NGs, the fanatics are released. Launch the 3 fanatics towards the center of the Orcs front rank, or wherever the charging unit will end up. You are ideally trying to have the fantics movement finish in the orc unit so that they are placed on other side, rolling too high will send you though the orcs into the target. This is bad as I will explain later. When you have these 3 fanatics at the front of your unit you then take the 3d6 hits. this is the risky bit 10.5 hits with 7 wounds, less if you have magic mushrooms. Not for a panic in a good sized orc unit. Then he completes his charge. He has no option but to place his charger ontop of your fanatics = 6d6 S5 armour piercing hits. approx 21 hits! This is why rolling too far is bad as it reduces the amounts of hits by d6. I have killed charging Bloodthirsters, chariots, khorne Cav, Swordmaster etc with this.

The look on your opponents face is just priceless.

This evens up almost any combat that Orcs have to fight, the hard bit is holding onto your fanatics till the right moment. A cany opponent will spot what your doing but most won't.

Does it work in the real world. Yes, I won the Pompey Pillage in 2008 with O&G. And yes I went up against a Tzeentch Deamon list and won.

Skyldig
08-12-2008, 13:40
A good read there Sedge and Chicago Slim, it's a relief to read some well thought out points once in a while.

Malorian
08-12-2008, 13:49
Horde is the way to go for sure.

I think too many people get caught up in black orcs, big uns, and boar boyz and ignore the 6 point orcs.

Sedge
08-12-2008, 13:53
Thanks. It really is amazing that I don't see this tactic used more often. People don't seem to have notice the change of wording to the fanatics in the new edition which says that the charger must complete his charge after the fanatics have moved forcing them to destroy themselves.

I bought the Orcs on a whim thinking that if I could play, and enjoy, them despite all the bad press then I could play with any army. I was surprised with how good they could be.

The army shifts into another gear with the edition of the BO Gen with Screaming sword on a Wyvern, brutal. This is helped, tacticaly, by the Waargh charge....

Place Gen behind cover (Hill, house, trees, etc) where he is close enough to charge but not in line of sight of the enemy :angel:. Opponent moves units save in the knowledge that General can't charge in next turn. You declaire Waargh at start of turn :cool:, General moves out of cover; charges are then declaired on newly revealed (and damn surprised :wtf:) enemy. This also works nicly with BO Hero on Charot or Boar. :D

Sedge
08-12-2008, 14:01
Horde is the way to go for sure.

I think too many people get caught up in black orcs, big uns, and boar boyz and ignore the 6 point orcs.


I agree, the core of O&G should be the core to your tactics (bad pun sorry). They are so cheap it would be rude not too.

kramplarv
08-12-2008, 15:51
when waagh is declared and the unit have no enemy in LoS, don't they just move straight ahead then? If that's the case I feel it might be hard to position a wyvern/chariot/whatever in that clever way :)

Braad
08-12-2008, 16:19
Best way to go is to mix 'm all up. Varied armies work best for me too. The more models, the better.

Orcs = good.

bravey
08-12-2008, 16:28
Finally, a thread were people are actually not moaning abuot "how succky teh orrcs r, ii mean lawl, thay cant d anything, nooberz."

neXus6
08-12-2008, 19:03
I'm another of the valiant defenders of the current army book, while there are areas that should be at least looked at by GW they are far from "the worst army in the game" as the loud shouty people would have you believe.

Though by no means as sure fire as the good old stick the fanatics into the back of your own unit tactic having the NGs to the side (in a situation where the enemy cannot just charge them instead) close enough to put the fanatics infront of the unit being charged and within a couple of inchs of the front of your unit.

The added bonus of this if it does all go a bit wrong or your unit doesn't break the battered enemy you can always pile the NGs into the enemy's flank...with nets naturally. :p

I'm a strong believer that there aren't many elite units in the game that can't be stopped by an orc a goblin and a net. :D
...though a bloody great ball and chain can't hurt either...well it can, but hopefully not you.
:)

Chicago Slim
08-12-2008, 20:41
Place Gen behind cover (Hill, house, trees, etc) where he is close enough to charge but not in line of sight of the enemy :angel:. Opponent moves units save in the knowledge that General can't charge in next turn. You declaire Waargh at start of turn :cool:, General moves out of cover; charges are then declaired on newly revealed (and damn surprised :wtf:) enemy. This also works nicly with BO Hero on Charot or Boar. :D

Yeah, last year at the Adepticon WHFB Champions tourney I brought 3 Black Orcs on chariots, and a Shaman Lord (general) on a Chariot... 4 chariots that Waagh!

I had mixed results, but that day was what really got me thinking about going more with a fusion of MSU / Horde. I know am building out a fourth and FIFTH unit of 10 arrer boyz each, and have now finished four units of NGs with bows, and am working on 3 with hand weapon and shield, as well a third unit of 30 Boyz.

And, to my great delight, I'm keeping up a Kult of Speed theme-- the arrer boyz all carry 40K weapons that have been converted to look like small crossbows, one unit of Boyz carry auto repair tools and hunks of sheet metal as choppas and shields. 4 chariots are conversions from 40K vehicles (including flames painted on the boars themselves!), the doom diver is riding a rocket launcher, and the wyvern, once I finish it, is going to be a twin-propeller dirigible using parts from the Ork ornithopters. Oh, and the Ironback Boar is, of course, a motorcycle, popping a wheelie.

Fun stuff!

Gralph!?!
08-12-2008, 21:55
i gdo admit that i love my orcses. they seem to have some of the dirtiest tricks in the game and all of which are used best when smacking your own troops in.

the fanatic one is a great one which i have used numerous times albeit a little bit differant. i used 5 wolf riders to charge, they lose combat and the unit persues. the enemy has to persue more than about 2" and they trigger the fanatics. my only concern about the tactic is i am paying 25pts for something that a single flyer can deal with.


another is my persoanl favourite to high elf dragon riders or other tough to kill gits (dwarf lords anyone?) a unit of wolf riders with a boss in the unit, the boss has the one hit wonda, collar of zorga and tricksey trinket. challenge that puncy high elf on a dragon and watch as the dragon doesn't do anything to you and then the high elf fails to kill you as on average rolls he should cause a single wound if he has vambraces of defence and all the usual stuff. while i would ignore his armour and ward save. cause a couple of wounds on him and thus i should win combat. nrequires a little bit of luck to do but is quite fun to use.

Gharof von Carstein
09-12-2008, 07:55
oke so a m8 of mine has been playing his orcs against me a lot. he hasnt touched his fanatics at all and is fielding a lot of chariots against me. what do you guys suggest is a good 1500 point list as all corners as can be?

this is just for him and me to see where your suggestions and his list differ.

Nuada
09-12-2008, 08:03
Horde is the way to go for sure.

I think too many people get caught up in black orcs, big uns, and boar boyz and ignore the 6 point orcs.

That's exactly my theory when i write my O&G list

knightime98
09-12-2008, 08:43
That's exactly my theory when i write my O&G list

That's all wonderful and stuff.. However, when you are playing a WAAC player or someone who has a severe Power army.. You get in trouble with the basic core guys. That's the problem with GW, they are getting away from Core basic guys. They have introduced so many elites, specials, characters, and cheese that they have over topped the pizza so to say. So, you can not even see the pepperoni nor taste it... So to say. If you played a core only army vs the same.. Chaos would win virtually all the time..

Gharof von Carstein
09-12-2008, 08:53
of course core only is a good way too lose. but to use your own pizza metaphor. a normal plain pizza doesnt rock your world. you need to add at least some topping ;)

Nuada
09-12-2008, 09:09
All core can work sometimes.
In one game i've had 5 units wolf riders, 3 units of sav orcs and 3 units of orc boyz (no spec, no rare) v's a dwarf gunline. It was a massacre victory for the Orcs

knightime98
09-12-2008, 11:32
Yeah, and this one time at band camp......

Sure every dog has his day...
and here is a real story of mine...
I had a bare naked unit of 20 night goblins (no cmd, nothing)
They were just a delivery system for fanatics..
They were charged by Bretonnian Knights with a Paladin included (Hero type)..
Paladin had a virtue that allows him to reroll misses.
The entire unit including the Paladin miss with everything..
The Paladin reroll gets 1 hit... Then fails to wound..
Horses did one wound... I fail to wound will all my stuff.
He had banner, one wound, one rank (Lance formation) - however it worked in 6th..
I had 3 ranks and outnumber... Uh Ohh...
Night Goblins WON by 1.. against bretonnian knights that charged???
Pandemonium ya all !!!
Sure enough he rolled like a 10 and blew his break test..
Bret player rolled flight distance... 8
My roll for pursuit 9...
Woo Hoo!! Celebration time come...

So, ya - You can have a moment!!!

Briohmar
09-12-2008, 12:27
My best time ever in a game was when I had a Goblin big boss with Wollopa's in a unit 0f 30 normal goblins with spears. Yes I know, the nay-sayers will tell me I did everything wrong, I didn't have 40 goblins, I took spears, etc etc. At any rate, my goblins flank charged a 9 strong Bretty lance complete with Paladin, the Goblin had Nibbla's and headbutted the paladin in magic phase, and then challenged him and crushed his head. the remaining goblins wounded another bretty, and ran them down. I lost the game, but the moral victory was what made it all worthwhile.

By the way the Goblins in question are the 4th edition stab you in the hand goblins, and I still use them. I also have 30 Battle masters goblins with light armor, shields and curvy swords that I still use as well.

lparigi34
09-12-2008, 12:29
Well, I'd jump in the wagon of "Orcs do Win"

IŽm pretty good with my Boyz, I run two units of Savage Boar Boyz, and plenty of plain Orcs and NGs.

What I usually do not take are Black Orcs, Bigguns, normal Boars, Trolls, Giants.

I also like fielding fulll gobbo armies, but as fun as they are, they are not so effective in competitive terms.

A good mix of plain orcs (cheap guys) and NGs always seemed to work the best.

Whaaagh!

GoGorilla
10-12-2008, 21:02
I'v just started playing warhammer fantasy after a four year pause and now I have some major army building problems. Can someone put up one of those kick ass 2250 p O&G army lists? Please :)

Malorian
10-12-2008, 21:23
2250? I guess I'd bump up my regular list to this:

Savage orc warboss w/ great axe, iron gnashas
Black orc bigboss BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor, boar
Goblin big boss w/ wolf, one hit wunda, light armor, shield
Night goblin shaman w/ staff of sneaky stealing

25 boyz w/ shield, banner
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
6 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician, banner
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 spider riders w/ musician
27 night goblins w/ 2 fanatics, nets, banner, musician
21 night golbin archers w/ 2 fanatics, musician
21 night golbin archers w/ 2 fanatics, musician

Orc chariot
Orc chariot
2 spear chukkas
2 spear chukkas

Doom diver
Troll

goodz
10-12-2008, 21:30
Orcs FTL lol

playing a 1600 or so point game dont really recall...

1 Fanatic blew up 5 of my knights bye bye 280 point

Doom diver killed 3 knights on first turn (knights had a 4+ ward against shooting) Unit was then charged by bore riders of some kind who killed 2 more knights leaving my sorcerer alone, The sorcerer lost combat and fled, ESCAPING! Anyway I have played all kinds of artilary lines never seen 10 knights die on the first turn in a game of that scale:P

Booo Orcs for killing 1/3rd of my army in like 10 minutes of game time

GoGorilla
10-12-2008, 22:03
Thanks mate!

lparigi34
12-12-2008, 17:59
I'v just started playing Warhammer fantasy after a four year pause and now I have some major army building problems. Can someone put up one of those kick ass 2250 p O&G army lists? Please :)

Hello GoGorilla... Very welcome to Warseer, I hope you stay for long time. I've around since the old Portent (old forum that became Warseer after shooting down its server).

Orcs is a great army, though in 7th a bit harder to play than before. Orcs suffer from excess of available units in every category, meaning basically that you can play anyway you want.

I have builds based in normal foot orcs, mounted ones with plenty wolves & spiders support, w/warmachines or none at all, with 2 giants or plenty of chariots...

The only thing I do not recommend are Orc elite armies.

a.- Black Orcs; usually you can assign its task to other units for the same price.

b.- Max on Biggun's; for the same reason as above.

c.- Unit champions on biggun's; you pay twice for the upgrade, so it becomes a stupid point sink.

The only Orcish quasi elite unit I do accept is Savage Boar Boyz, hard to manage but if wisely used they deliver plenty of pain and will tear apart enemy ranks. Quasi-Elite as something suffering from Frenzy is hardly 100% Elite.

Please, explain more about your playing style/preferences so we can provide more help for you. Orcs is a great & fun army w/ plenty of options. YouŽll never get bored of it.

drpieceofme
12-12-2008, 21:08
Hello GoGorilla... Very welcome to Warseer, I hope you stay for long time. I've around since the old Portent (old forum that became Warseer after shooting down its server).

Orcs is a great army, though in 7th a bit harder to play than before. Orcs suffer from excess of available units in every category, meaning basically that you can play anyway you want.

I have builds based in normal foot orcs, mounted ones with plenty wolves & spiders support, w/warmachines or none at all, with 2 giants or plenty of chariots...

The only thing I do not recommend are Orc elite armies.

a.- Black Orcs; usually you can assign its task to other units for the same price.

b.- Max on Biggun's; for the same reason as above.

c.- Unit champions on biggun's; you pay twice for the upgrade, so it becomes a stupid point sink.

The only Orcish quasi elite unit I do accept is Savage Boar Boyz, hard to manage but if wisely used they deliver plenty of pain and will tear apart enemy ranks. Quasi-Elite as something suffering from Frenzy is hardly 100% Elite.

Please, explain more about your playing style/preferences so we can provide more help for you. Orcs is a great & fun army w/ plenty of options. YouŽll never get bored of it.


Sounds like sound advice. Having said that. Can you give me a great build? I'm not picky about army selection, though I prefer no special characters. I just want to win with my Orcs. I have a lot of boyz and black orcs, but compared to my DE and VC's, Black Orcs just don't perform for their points, but people always tell me they are great. If there is a useful way to make them worth it, I am open to hearing it, because Black Orcs are the main reason I started playing warhammer.

lparigi34
12-12-2008, 23:54
Hi.

I am bit on the hurry, IŽve enjoyed a lot with this one... Give or take as as you wish, as I said before Orcs have far too many good choices.

As for the BOŽs, I love them too, but unfortunately I have not had any luck with them, but that maybe just me.

---------------------
2251 Pts - Orcs & Goblins Army

1 Savage Orc Warboss @ 218 Pts
General; Frenzy; Choppa; Light Armour; Warpaint
Porko's Pigstikka [40]
Ironback Boar [35]
Enchanted Shield [15]

1 Savage Orc Big Boss @ 120 Pts
Frenzy; Choppa; Light Armour; Warpaint; Shield
Ulag's Akk'rit Axe [25]
1 Boar @ [0] Pts

6 Savage Boar Big 'Uns @ 244 Pts
Frenzy; Choppa; Spear; Warpaint; Shield; Standard; Musician
Nogg's Banner of Butchery [25]

8 Savage Boar Boyz @ 263 Pts
Frenzy; Choppa; Spear; Warpaint; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Savage Orc Boar Boyz Boss @ [17] Pts

1 Orc Big Boss @ 120 Pts
Choppa; Battle Standard
Amulet of Protectyness [25]

23 Orc Boyz @ 174 Pts
Choppa; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Orc Boss @ [15] Pts

1 Night Goblin Shaman @ 100 Pts
Magic Level 1; Little Waagh
Dispel Scroll [25]
Dispel Scroll [25]

29 Night Goblins @ 225 Pts
Netters; Spear; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Night Goblin Boss @ [8] Pts
2 Fanatic @ [50] Pts

29 Night Goblins @ 225 Pts
Netters; Spear; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Night Goblin Boss @ [8] Pts
2 Fanatic @ [50] Pts

6 Goblin Wolf Riders @ 84 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician

6 Goblin Wolf Riders @ 84 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician

6 Goblin Spider Riders @ 84 Pts
Spear; Shield; Musician

1 Boar Chariot @ 80 Pts

2 Spear Chukka @ 70 Pts

1 Doom Diver @ 80 Pts

2 Pump Wagon @ 80 Pts

studderigdave
14-12-2008, 13:21
i have always been interested in the orcs, but over the years i have seen a multitude of players use them wrongly (in my eyes) and thus lose horribly. last night though we had a little 12 player tourney at my local LGS and the winner of the event (and the last fantasy tounrey a few months back) was an OnG player. its was so inspiring im looking at starting OnG now. his list smashed through demons, then double hydra dark elves then chaos on round 3. his list was something like this:

savage orc warboss with best basha, +1 T and -1 to hit him in CC
2 lvl 1 goblin shamans with a scroll each
1 goblin BSB with spider standard? (al gobbos in unit have poison)

3 x 30 night gobbos, full command, nets and 2 fanatics
20 blorcs with full command

4 spear chukkas with bullies

2 giants

it was an excellent display of a mosyl gobbo army just wrecking house. i didnt play in the event (i was the 13th guy and was asked to drop since i play every wekend and they had guys visiting from out of state and such) so i got to watch the first 2 games from table side.

now im gonna slwoly build a force, not exactly like the list above, but i learned alot. the OnG player didnt mind all my questions, he gladly gave me all the advice i was looking for.