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Toonces
08-12-2008, 20:33
Hi all,

Did a search on the forums but couldn't find an answer to this one. If it's been answered, shoot me a link and chide me for my lack of mad searching skills.

The movement of a wheel, according to page 12 of the BRB, is the amount of distance moved by the outside model - and I and everyone I've played against has always read this as the outside model in the front rank.

So... does anybody know how you measure the movement of a single file unit? Back in the day (yes, I'm old), there were special movement rules for snaking movement, but I can't seem to find any mention of such in the book and, just from reading, the answer seems to be it's free for a single file unit to wheel (which to me, feel dreadfully wrong and one of the rules-as-written absurdities) but you could also read 'outside model' to mean the guy at the back of the single file...

Anyway, does anyone know how this is ruled? I'd be happy with official rulings (if you can point me to it) but I'm guessing there isn't one so I'd also like to know how you've ruled it in your own games... if it ever came up or how you would rule it if it did.

Thanks!

Tae
08-12-2008, 20:37
I haven't got my rulebook to hand, so can't quote the exact page (and may, indeed, be wrong on this), but from what I can remember there's a rule stating that no member of a unit may move more than their normal movement in any movement phase.

Example - A unit of 20 bowmen in one long line can't reform at one end into a 5x4 unit.

If this is the case I would have thought that the single file unit would wheel measuring from the rearmost member of the unit (to ensure they don't move more than their normal move).

However I may be mistaken on this.

Sclep
08-12-2008, 20:59
but from what I can remember there's a rule stating that no member of a unit may move more than their normal movement in any movement phase.

Out of context, that phrase would appear quite silly, but it is in fact relevant.

You are in fact talking about reforming, in which case, you would be nearly correct. See the reform rule p.14. Rearrange your unit about the centre point of the unit as long as no model moves twice it's M, is in combat, etc.

However, when wheeling, "...the entire unit counts as having moved as far as the outside model."

Italics mine. Now what it means by that would appear to be the model in the front rank furthest from the pivot point, as all diagrams etc. detailing wheeling in all situations have arrows from this source to the point of arrival.

Therwfore, RAW, you wheel a single column of troops as you would a normal unit (measure from the furthest front facing point from the pivot point in the unit). There is no reason other than common sense to do otherwise.

What this leads to when wheeling a single column is messed up maths. A small pivot results in the traling troops swinging out far further, as demonstrated here rather nicely by Avian. Just scroll down to 'Wheel Launch' and it will become apparent why this becomes a problem.

http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/tactics/fanatics.php

Of course, the wording shoots it self in the foot, and every model counts as moving as far as the 'outside model'.


You could contend what the 'outside model' is, I suppose.


A fix might be to measure from the rearmost point, diagonally opposite to the pivotal point...




AFAIK, there are no special rules for fielding troops in a long column.


Sclep

Braad
08-12-2008, 21:28
All nice and well...

But regarding the snaking rule, it was removed when we went from 6th to 7th IIRC.

theunwantedbeing
08-12-2008, 21:40
Measure the wheel from the model that moves the furthest.
Otherwise you get some utterly rediculous rulings like the fanatic sling shot.

Tae
08-12-2008, 21:46
Out of context, that phrase would appear quite silly, but it is in fact relevant.

You are in fact talking about reforming, in which case, you would be nearly correct. See the reform rule p.14. Rearrange your unit about the centre point of the unit as long as no model moves twice it's M, is in combat, etc.

Sclep

Hmm, I thought that rule applied to other manouvers as well, but I guess not.

pinegulf
09-12-2008, 07:11
How about this: I'd imagine (RAI?) that no model could exceed it's maxium movement rate? So, wheeling a column should be measured from 'behind'.

Jericho
09-12-2008, 07:23
This rule cannot be changed without completely screwing over Bretonnians. A 2" wheel on a lance formation would count as 6" if you measure from the back rank (or more if the unit is 13+ strong). It isn't really fair to screw over an entire army to avoid some dodgy moves that you could possibly pull off in certain situations.

The Dev Team might come up with special rules for moving single-file again, but you can't really do much about it in the meantime.

SamVimes
09-12-2008, 07:30
Sure you can, you can give your opponent a smack upside the head.

pinegulf
09-12-2008, 08:02
This rule cannot be changed without completely screwing over Bretonnians. A 2" wheel on a lance formation would count as 6" if you measure from the back rank (or more if the unit is 13+ strong). It isn't really fair to screw over an entire army to avoid some dodgy moves that you could possibly pull off in certain situations.
Agreed... Though brets got their special lance-formation anyway. It would be easier to include exception into lance-rules rather than allowing everybody to make these 'artistic' moves.

DeathlessDraich
09-12-2008, 10:47
Hi all,

Did a search on the forums but couldn't find an answer to this one. If it's been answered, shoot me a link and chide me for my lack of mad searching skills.

The movement of a wheel, according to page 12 of the BRB, is the amount of distance moved by the outside model - and I and everyone I've played against has always read this as the outside model in the front rank.

So... does anybody know how you measure the movement of a single file unit? Back in the day (yes, I'm old), there were special movement rules for snaking movement, but I can't seem to find any mention of such in the book and, just from reading, the answer seems to be it's free for a single file unit to wheel (which to me, feel dreadfully wrong and one of the rules-as-written absurdities) but you could also read 'outside model' to mean the guy at the back of the single file...

Anyway, does anyone know how this is ruled? I'd be happy with official rulings (if you can point me to it) but I'm guessing there isn't one so I'd also like to know how you've ruled it in your own games... if it ever came up or how you would rule it if it did.

Thanks!

You're right in highlighting the importance of the "outside model".

The definition of "outside model" doesn't exist so you have to mutually agree.


How about this: I'd imagine (RAI?) that no model could exceed it's maxium movement rate? So, wheeling a column should be measured from 'behind'.

There are at least 3 circumstances when a model could (or must!) move more than its maximum movement rate -
1) While this rule is stated for Reforms, it is absent for Change formation.
2) It is also absent for Redress ranks,
3) Absent (necessarily) for Characters and Champions moving within a unit and uncertain for Characters leaving units.
4) Absent for Last man standing because of the lack of clarity of the pivot.


Measure the wheel from the model that moves the furthest.
Otherwise you get some utterly rediculous rulings like the fanatic sling shot.

1) You have defined 'outside model' as the model that moves furthest.
Maybe, maybe not - even though this problem was known in 6th ed, GW has never addressed it.

2) Sling shot - Understandable - most players are stupefied when confronted with it for the first time. I personally would allow it when playing against Orcs.

Braad
09-12-2008, 13:51
Well, problem is, if a actual block of people makes such a wheel, you won't see the people in the back suddenly run sideways. They just follow the flow of the movement. It will just be a bit difficult to do this with a unit in a movement tray. So if you ask me, measuring the front models movement is the better and more realistic solution here, except for some weird situations.
I do think they should have kept the snaking rule, though. But it will be difficult to counter all situations anywasy, cause I could also do a fanatic slingshot with a slightly bigger unit and make it 2 files and 20 ranks...

This is the whole point why the book tells us to play 'nice'.

FigureFour
09-12-2008, 14:03
This rule cannot be changed without completely screwing over Bretonnians. A 2" wheel on a lance formation would count as 6" if you measure from the back rank (or more if the unit is 13+ strong). It isn't really fair to screw over an entire army to avoid some dodgy moves that you could possibly pull off in certain situations.

The Dev Team might come up with special rules for moving single-file again, but you can't really do much about it in the meantime.

It doesn't completely screw over the Bretonnians, it makes their manuverability on par with other cavalry units. Besides, the lance is already absurdly powerful for a number of dodgy reasons (and increasing their manuverability is one of them).

Besides, wouldn't a wedge formation be harder to wheel than a block anyway?

Jericho
10-12-2008, 01:53
Since when does real-world logic have anything to do with wargames mechanics ;)

Anyway if the Lance formation was totally broken, then the Brets would win more games. They're still very beatable, some armies struggle more than others but Brets aren't steamrolling through tournaments like VC and Demons (and to a much lesser extent Dark Elves) are.

FigureFour
10-12-2008, 14:17
Anyway if the Lance formation was totally broken, then the Brets would win more games. They're still very beatable, some armies struggle more than others but Brets aren't steamrolling through tournaments like VC and Demons (and to a much lesser extent Dark Elves) are.

Note how I didn't say it was totally broken. However, before the current round of more powerful armies it was considered totally broken, now it's just more powerful than intended (or so I believe anyway).

The point is, the lance formation gives a lot of weird perks that most people don't even think about (increased manuverability is one) and that even if all it did was give you extra attacks over a narrow frontage and a cheeper rank bonus it would still be very good.

Changes to how a unit wheels would NOT screw over the lance or the Bretonnians.

Rodman49
11-12-2008, 09:30
Anyway if the Lance formation was totally broken, then the Brets would win more games. They're still very beatable, some armies struggle more than others but Brets aren't steamrolling through tournaments like VC and Demons (and to a much lesser extent Dark Elves) are.

The lack of Brets dominating the tournament scene is that the army just isn't that popular - IE it's not new and shiny - both Vamps and Daemons are relatively new and players have finally finished assembling and painting them. I'm sure you'll see more DE players over the new few months.

SamVimes
11-12-2008, 09:33
That, I must say, isn't at all what I've seen. Bretts are just far more 1 dimensional in comparison to the other two, and that makes them easier to beat. Still, they are hard as nails.

Avian
11-12-2008, 11:30
Measuring from the rear outside model makes the wheel length of a block of, say 5x5 infantry more than 40%(!) longer. I don't feel that is a good trade off for removing some fringe "tactics" next to nobody use anyway.

Mireadur
11-12-2008, 22:10
This rule cannot be changed without completely screwing over Bretonnians. A 2" wheel on a lance formation would count as 6" if you measure from the back rank (or more if the unit is 13+ strong). It isn't really fair to screw over an entire army to avoid some dodgy moves that you could possibly pull off in certain situations.

The Dev Team might come up with special rules for moving single-file again, but you can't really do much about it in the meantime.


Although the fast answer id give to this is: Well, let bret lance should have a disadvantage.

In reality you will find that a bret lance wheeling X''(measuring from the back rank) has turned an angle as big as a single line formation which wheeled the same X'' distance.

You have to measure from the back imo.


Measuring from the rear outside model makes the wheel length of a block of, say 5x5 infantry more than 40%(!) longer. I don't feel that is a good trade off for removing some fringe "tactics" next to nobody use anyway.


You tested it geometrically (sp?)? How do you measure a wheeling Avian? im curious about how you do it. (im guessing you measure in a perpendicular from unit's original position?)

In reality it is something i've never come to a total agreement about.

Toonces
11-12-2008, 22:54
Measuring from the rear outside model makes the wheel length of a block of, say 5x5 infantry more than 40%(!) longer. I don't feel that is a good trade off for removing some fringe "tactics" next to nobody use anyway.

Yeah, measuring from the outside causes some really absurd results.

Thanks for everyone's input. I think my approach will be to just always measure a single file as if it's two files long (if I wheel right, I'll add a phantom fig to the left to measure for wheeling, if I wheel left, measure from a phantom guy to the right). If my opponent doesn't like that ruling before game, we'll improvise or whatever.

I ask because I'm thinking of running detachments of single file swordsmen who aim to flank charge and keep a super-small front to increase wheelability and to minimize hits back but still break rank bonuses and get flank/rear CR bonuses. If the single file connects, I'm not caring if the swordsmen kill, I'm hoping that the hits back at them don't reduce them to less than five.

Oh, and Avian - I really enjoyed your site - some great stuff in there.

Harwammer
11-12-2008, 23:01
What is the outside model?

I think it is the model that moves furthest over the table, i.e. if you are wheeling on the front left model, the back right is the outside model.

However, it seems to be most commonly played that the front rank model on the opposite side to the model that acts as the pivot point for the wheel is the outside model. I guess the reason for this is if you move, wheel, then move further, playing this way most realistically emulates how troops move on a march (as the models in the rear ranks effectively follow the path of those in the front).

Avian
12-12-2008, 08:51
You tested it geometrically (sp?)?
You can calculate it:

W = width of unit
D = depth of unit
E = error you get when using rear outside corner instead of front outside corner

E = ( ( ( (W^2 + D^2)^0.5 ) / W) -1 )*100%

(basically how many percent the diagonal is longer than the width)

If we take a unit of 25 Empire Swordsmen (width 10 cm and depth 10 cm) we find that the error is 41%.

Note also that unless D = 0, you get a longer wheel when using the rear outside corner. And no ranked units has a depth of 0 ranks.





How do you measure a wheeling Avian? im curious about how you do it.
Path moved by front outside corner. It's both the distance an actual unit would have moved in real life and the way nearly everybody (including GW) does it anyway. For a convenient way of doing it, I have little wheel templates calibrated to the width of my units.

Wheeling in Warhammer is an abstaction we have to employ since our movement trays are not bendable. That abstraction falls down when units are excessively long compared to their depth. It means that the unit needs an unreasonable amount of clear space on the outside of the wheel (an actual formation in real life requires no clear space at all) and means that the models in the rear ranks move further than the models in the front rank (in an actual formation, each guy moves the same distance as the guy in the rank in front of him and the whole formation moves at the speed of the guy in the outside front rank).


It is important to realise that:

1) Measuring the outside front model's movement gives the realistic distance

2) Unless you deliberately set out to take advantage of the rules, the abstraction we use only gives all ranked units a disadvantage

3) Using the rear outside model means all ranked units would get longer wheels, meaning that manoeuvering would be much more limited to straight ahead and giving more advantage to monsters, chariots and skirmishers

4) Narrow units (such as bretonnian knights in a lance formation) wheeling quicker than wide units (such as empire knights in a normal formation) is what happens in real life too.

Mireadur
15-12-2008, 05:17
ok, some questions and counter arguments Avian.

The 1st and most important, because i remember that many years ago i had this discussion with my gaming friends often: I used to measure from the front model, although measuring the diagonal was somehow difficult since you needed to set up something below the tray. So i proposed to measure the long cathetus instead said diagonal (shorter movement even, but quite convenient). I guess that to had made it totally accurate woulda needed to use phytagoras? outrageous i know :p. Anyway the thing is that we finally came to the agreement of measuring from the back, which eventhough giving different distances seemed the most comfortable, convenient and, under a different point of view, more fair.

So what i wanted to ask you is: Your templates measure the diagonal moved right?.


Narrow units (such as bretonnian knights in a lance formation) wheeling quicker than wide units (such as empire knights in a normal formation) is what happens in real life too.

I see your point, however, keep in mind that WH lance formation is an 'abstraction inside an abstraction' as a real lance formation didnt have the 6th ed structure, a kind of formation which if i recall correctly was harder to wheel IRL than a common square one.

Anyway its just a matter of points of view, so if GW (and you) all measure from the front im going talk with friends to going back to those ancient habits :p

One last thing, dont you find a little too complicated measuring the wheeling if you have to go by the ''calibrated templates'' approach? What other solution could you give me?

Lord Solar Plexus
17-12-2008, 06:06
The assumption that any model with a movement allowance of X could travel X+n is based on very weak grounds.

The prerequisite that no model may move farther than its M value (or double that in some instances) has nothing to do with specific maneouvres. It is a global rule that holds true for all movement except where explicitly overridden (aligning, magic effects). It is repeated in some instances probably because in these cases units cannot march.

If the models in a given unit can move 4" there is no way they can move 15".

ZeroTwentythree
17-12-2008, 17:14
I've posted this elsewhere, but here's my threatened skavenslave reply to anyone trying to use the goblin fanatic slingshot:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/ZeroTwentythree/personal/WHL5.jpg

So the skavenslaves move 5" but are displaced 28" on the board, setting off all their fanatics on turn one.

:angel:

The smaller numbers are the RAW movement cost. The larger numbers are the actual displacement of the models that are displaced the furthest. Dashed lines show the starting point of the unit in each step, solid lines show the ending point. The little black triangles indicate the facing of the unit.

I've intended to take some photos doing this with actual figures on a table, for clarity, but hopefully the above image is clear enough.


Avian, as much as I agree about the "fringe tactics," that doesn't change the fact that some people will use things like the above, and it really hurts the game. If they simply put a cap on the move of individual figures, it could allow for the increased apparent movement of the back ranks of reasonable units (including lance formation cavalry) while eliminating skavenslaves that are displaced 28" as a 5" move.

theunwantedbeing
17-12-2008, 17:19
That diagram is fantastic :D

I agree that they need to put a specific mention limiting models from moving more than double their movement rate in a movement phase. Fleeing and overrunning is of course the singular exception to this.

I really need to do that with my DE crossbowmen to get to shoot an enemy unit at close range on turn 1 before the enemy get's to do anything. Infact next game I will attempt it and see how my opponens react! (probably not well)

Doing it with WE glade guard would presumably be most amusing, seeing as they can wheel through their own tree's at whim and arent sufering a move and shoot penalty, so will hit on 3's at st4 after doing that little trick. They only need to be 15" away from the enemy when the finish as well, so can wheel to just outside the charge range of heavy cavalry on turn 1.

Mercules
17-12-2008, 17:36
The assumption that any model with a movement allowance of X could travel X+n is based on very weak grounds.

The prerequisite that no model may move farther than its M value (or double that in some instances) has nothing to do with specific maneouvres. It is a global rule that holds true for all movement except where explicitly overridden (aligning, magic effects). It is repeated in some instances probably because in these cases units cannot march.

If the models in a given unit can move 4" there is no way they can move 15".

We can read the actual Wheel Maneuver on pg. 12 of the BRB and see that it refers to the leading edge. The "...moves as far as the outside model." Has two things of note. 1. It is STILL referring to the leading edge and 2. Every other model in the unit counts as moving as far as it. Therefore even though that model 10 ranks back moved 5" it still counts as moving 1" and thus doesn't count against moving more than it M value.

That being said I would still smack my friend in the back of the head if he tried the goblin slingshot tactic. While technically legal, it is also highly against the primary rule of Warhammer, "Have fun."

Atrahasis
17-12-2008, 18:02
I've posted this elsewhere, but here's my threatened skavenslave reply to anyone trying to use the goblin fanatic slingshot:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/ZeroTwentythree/personal/WHL5.jpg

So the skavenslaves move 5" but are displaced 28" on the board, setting off all their fanatics on turn one.Your calculations are off - the unit moves forward only 15.7 inches if that is a unit of 20 skavenslaves.

To move forward 28" you'd need 35 or 36 slaves in the unit. The arc of the wheel is 25" or so, but the straight line forward movement is far less.

It's pretty obvious from the diagram that the unit only moves forward by it's width :)

Condottiere
17-12-2008, 18:27
You couldn't get away with that move with our group. We're still debating the reform variation, though.

Mireadur
17-12-2008, 18:39
That diagram is fantastic :D

I agree that they need to put a specific mention limiting models from moving more than double their movement rate in a movement phase. Fleeing and overrunning is of course the singular exception to this.




Or just need to set measuring from the back outside model as the norm?

Thats definitely some crazy exploit that would never happen in my games anyway. At least agaisnt most of my friends...

Avian
18-12-2008, 09:16
So what i wanted to ask you is: Your templates measure the diagonal moved right?.

<snip>

One last thing, dont you find a little too complicated measuring the wheeling if you have to go by the ''calibrated templates'' approach? What other solution could you give me?
My templates are little pie-slice shaped pieces of cardboard with a radius equal to the width of the unit (thus measuring the movement of the front outside model, which is the accurate and realistic measure of a unit's wheel). I have a couple of different ones, since I use units with a couple of different widths.

If you want to be accurate without using wheel templates, I'd suggest wheeling in little 1" increments.





Avian, as much as I agree about the "fringe tactics," that doesn't change the fact that some people will use things like the above, and it really hurts the game. If they simply put a cap on the move of individual figures, it could allow for the increased apparent movement of the back ranks of reasonable units (including lance formation cavalry) while eliminating skavenslaves that are displaced 28" as a 5" move.
Then you'd need to cap it at something like three times each individual model's movement, or say that you can't wheel if the depth of your unit is more than twice the width, or something like that.

If my unit of 25 Orc Boyz wheel 5" and move forward 3", then the outside rear model has moved 10", but nobody would cry foul at that.




I agree that they need to put a specific mention limiting models from moving more than double their movement rate in a movement phase. Fleeing and overrunning is of course the singular exception to this.
If any of your units march their full distance and the move included a wheel, lot of your models moved further than twice their movement distance. Presumably you have not felt like a cheater yet, so no reason to change now. :p

ZeroTwentythree
18-12-2008, 15:07
Your calculations are off - the unit moves forward only 15.7 inches if that is a unit of 20 skavenslaves.

To move forward 28" you'd need 35 or 36 slaves in the unit. The arc of the wheel is 25" or so, but the straight line forward movement is far less.

It's pretty obvious from the diagram that the unit only moves forward by it's width :)


D'oh! :eek: Yeah. Like I said, that was an old diagram I previously used. I apparently didn't take a close enough look at what I had done before typing my reply. You are correct.

The 28" is the distance traveled by the model that moves the most along it's path of travel. The displacement is more along the lines of what you mention above.




My templates are little pie-slice shaped pieces of cardboard with a radius equal to the width of the unit (thus measuring the movement of the front outside model, which is the accurate and realistic measure of a unit's wheel). I have a couple of different ones, since I use units with a couple of different widths.


Good idea. I see people using those Gale Force 9 plastic wheeling templates for all units, but they always seem to place them on the outside figures, which is incorrect, if even just slightly so, because of the differences in arc. I like your idea, though what could be even more interesting is a "hollow pie-slice" that fits around the outside of the unit, allowing the figures to move within an opening, with the measurements marked on an arc along the outside, and a base point that stays at the non-moving corner point of the unit. :D




Then you'd need to cap it at something like three times each individual model's movement, or say that you can't wheel if the depth of your unit is more than twice the width, or something like that.



Yes, something like that. Something to prevent obvious abuse, but still allowing enough flexibility for the game to work without getting hung up on details of math/geometry.

theunwantedbeing
18-12-2008, 20:44
If any of your units march their full distance and the move included a wheel, lot of your models moved further than twice their movement distance. Presumably you have not felt like a cheater yet, so no reason to change now. :p

I measure wheels from the back corner.
I'de also rather not be called a cheater if you dont mind.

Avian
18-12-2008, 21:38
As long as you only apply it to your own army and don't suggest that other people should do it your way, you are merely handicapping yourself for no good reason, which is the prerogative of any player in the game as far as I'm concerned.

Good luck with your unwieldy infantry.

Condottiere
19-12-2008, 07:15
Realistically, you don't have to measure from the back rank. Infantry formations usually have their ranks wheel at a designated point on the field in turn, cavalry as well.

ZeroTwentythree
19-12-2008, 14:27
Well, yes, I think that was stated above. But as also stated, that's not what most people have a problem with. (Except theunwantedbeing ;) )

It's things like the "goblin slingshot" or the TK "bone slinky" where the end goal is not simply wheeling, but taking advantages of quirks in the rules specifically in order to get significantly more movement than they otherwise should.