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Blaklabel
08-12-2008, 23:10
I have a bunch of questions about taking skaven over 20 models in a squad.

1.) Is taking over 20 Clanrat Slaves worth it?
2.) I want to take a unit at 6 wide and 5 deep. Would I be better off making it a Clanrat unit or a Spear-clanrat unit? They both have benefits obviously. Spear rats can give 12 attacks on a charge, but HW and Shield Rats will have a 4+ CC save. Also, the extra leadership would also benefit the HW and Shield unit better since they'll make more saves, less rats'll die.
Also casting death frenzy on a spear-rat unit will make them, well. Amazing. 24 Attacks from my rats? UGH!

(Also quick Death frenzy question!)
The spell says, "Units that are death frenzied suffer d3 wounds blah blah blah."
Does that mean units you used the Death frenzy spell on? Or does it mean units actually under the effect of the rule death frenzy? (Frenzied twice)

thanks ahead of time!

--Blaklabel

Axis
08-12-2008, 23:21
I have a unit of spear clanrats. I regret making them that way. In every game i have wished they were normal clanrats. Clanrats don't kill much, they are there for combat res. Losing 1 point of armour save is a big deal. Once the clanrats die too easily then your static combat res is countered.

I would take 30 normal ranked up 5 wide and 6 deep. You want big frontage for units that are killy and skaven rank and file just are not that.

I have also taken bigger units of slaves. They aren't bad but there isn't much extra benefit to taking lots of them. Against some armies you can use them as tarpits but usually you are better off just using them to draw enemies out of position and stuff like that.

W0lf
09-12-2008, 00:38
i find 25 is a good unit size. 5 kills before you start losing combat res.

madival
09-12-2008, 00:55
dont you lose the spear attacks from second rank if u charge?

Shamfrit
09-12-2008, 01:20
25 clanrats, 5X5, full command, hand weapon and shield, no exceptions.

20 Slaves, no upgrades, (LD 3 is not worth it, really, it might be 4 points for a musician, but that's another rat!)

25 Clanrats and 20 Slaves should take up one core slot, don't ever take one without the other, they are an intrinsic union. Keep slaves to side of Clanrats and use them like a detachment, only, without the counter charge rule. You should last most charges with LD 10 and BSB nearby, to flank and win combat next turn, at least in theory.

Although saying that, shield slaves with spears against other str 3 troops, lead by a BSB cheiftain with the Standard of the Horned Rat can often be an amusingly cheap weapon of mass destruction to use against certain enemies, namely the Empire and heck, Dwarves.

Axis
09-12-2008, 07:51
I disagree about musicians for slaves. Many dont like them. I often like having my slaves rally and LD 8 is very helpful (provided the general is close enough). Secondly against some (weak) foes having a musician can be the difference between fleeing and holding. Things like skeletons or goblins or even units of humans (empire or men at arms or whatnot).

I know it is only anecdotal evidence but a musician has been the reason why i've had slaves last more than one round against some trolls and also why my slaves have not been autobroken by some skeletons.

In the end taking or not taking a musician isn't likely to have drastic effects. I like them, others don't. Try it out for yourself.

xragg
09-12-2008, 08:57
I always take a musician for my slaves. Like said, ralling on an 8 instead of a 7, or the tiebreaker for combats. When my skaven armies are already around 200 count, that 4pnts is better spent on a musician then rat#201.

I also typically run my clanrats at 25 minimum upto 30 models. This is where is fudge points when writing up my list. I write them as 25man units and throw my leftover points into these units in the end. I occasionally use a 20 strong spear-rat unit, not because I like it, but because its the first unit I made and like to keep the dust from building up too much on them.

You only lose models if your unit is death frenzied (ie double frenzied).

Ward.
09-12-2008, 09:11
I have a bunch of questions about taking skaven over 20 models in a squad.

1.) Is taking over 20 Clanrat Slaves worth it?
Definitely.


2.) I want to take a unit at 6 wide and 5 deep. Would I be better off making it a Clanrat unit or a Spear-clanrat unit?
You'd be better off making it 5 wide and 6 deep with H&S, 30 models to a unit has really become the sweet spot for skaven.

havoc626
09-12-2008, 10:32
Definately take more than 20 Clanrats in a squad, because all that needs to happen is you lose 1 model, and there goes 1 pt of Ld. 25 is a good number, 30 is better.

As to the spears/spearless rats, it is a matter of choice really. Do you want to have those extra attacks against a charge, but lose that +1 to your Sv, or do you go for the constant 4+ Sv, and make them cheaper.

1pt doesn't seem like that much, but when you start fielding 2250pt armies or more, it can be the difference between another squad of clanrats. I find that it isn't worth it, but that's because I field an army that can take the first charge, then get a flank charge on that squad for the support. If I did take spears on all the clanrats, I would have one less squad of clannies and slaves.

But as I said before, it is truely a matter of choice and I know players that have had highly successful armies when having all their clanrats with spears.

inphobia
09-12-2008, 12:11
dont you lose the spear attacks from second rank if u charge?

if you've moved, and since you need to move for a charge...

stripsteak
09-12-2008, 15:46
I always go slaves 21 strong, for 2 points you get an extra wound before panic which can be vital against some gunlines.

clanrats at least 25 strong, usually no more then 30, never take spears. 5x6 most of the time, haveing an extra 3/3 and increasing your frontage at the cost of ranks isn't generally a good idea for skaven, we depend on static CR not combat to win.