PDA

View Full Version : ADV. 40k rules



KingNova3000
25-11-2005, 00:04
Here are a entire set of 40k advanced rules I have been working on in the past few months. These are designed to work with the current 4th edition rules, I have taken elements of 2nd edition and other elements from other wargames (Battletech players will be familiar with the Advanced Turn Sequence rules). These rules are still not completed simply a Beta version if you will....


40k Advanced

40k Advanced is intended for smaller games of Warhammer 40 000, under 1000 points. Although it is possible to play larger games, it can take longer than a standard game of 40k. In order to use these rules must possess a copy of Warhammer 40 000 4th Edition.



THE MOVEMENT PHASE

Going to Ground

A standard infantry unit (pg 264 for descriptions) can declare they want to go to ground if they have not moved and there are no enemy units within 12 inches. To go to ground the unit must pass a leadership test using highest of the squad, if the test is passed the unit has gone to ground successfully (place a gone to ground marker next to the unit), if the test is failed some of the unit goes to ground whilst others don’t because they have not heard the order over the sound of battle, the unit can do nothing else during the movement phase.

A unit that has gone to ground it gains the stealth special rule. If a unit that has the stealth special rule goes to ground they are able to re-roll failed cover saves. If a unit is in the open when they go to ground they gain a 6+ cover save.

Running

A unit of infantry (see pg 264 for descriptions) can attempt to run that little bit further. This is done in the exact same manner as the fleet universal special rule, except of an extra D6 inches running is an extra D3 inches. Models that are not allowed to perform sweeping advances (i.e. terminators) or are slow and purposeful cannot perform a run, as they are to slow. A model who already has fleet can not (they can move faster with a fleet anyway).


THE SHOOTING PHASE

Cover Saves

Cover is treated in the exact same manner as the standard 40k rules except for on minor change; cover saves are taken before armour saves. So for example you have a unit of Space Marines in a forest (5+ cover save), they are shot and hit by six pulse rifle shots. So the Space Marine player would roll six cover saves first, any passes (5 or 6 in this example) represent the terrain stopping the incoming fire, but for every cover save that is failed the Space Marine will have to take an armour save.

In another example a unit of Imperial Guardsmen has gone to ground within a bunker (3+ cover save), they are hit by four bolter shots. The guard player rolls the cover saves, for each one that fails the guard player would take an armour save if it wasn’t for the fact that the bolter penetrates his armour.

Design Note: This is the more realistic way of playing cover saves and was deliberately avoided by the 40k designers, as they didn’t want units with already high armour values to become almost untouchable in cover. But that just isn’t cricket.


Splitting Fire

Normally in the standard Warhammer 40 000 a unit cannot split is fire, but in advanced 40k you are perfectly able to. A unit (excluding vehicles) can split any shooting between two valid targets. Declare what is shooting at what before rolling any dice. The two targets must be put into a Primary and a Secondary category. The Primary target is fired at as normal, but to shoot at the secondary target a LD test has to be taken (using the highest of the models shooting at the secondary target), if passed they shoot at it as normal, if failed there has been confusion in identifying the target and any models shooting at the secondary target can not fire this turn.

Aimed Fire

A unit or model (excluding vehicles) can aim their shots if they have not moved in the movement phase (their weapons when aiming count as being heavy). When aiming they are seeking out weak spots in the enemies cover or armour that they can take advantage of. To represent this an aiming model may re-roll any failed to hits that roll a one, remember a re-roll can not be re-rolled.


Adv. Penetrating Fire

In standard 40k weapons have fixed AP value, meaning if you have a 4+ save you don’t have to worry about your armour being ignored by AP 5 weapons. But in things now work a little differently. Roll your armour saves like normal but minus the weapons Armour Penetration modifier. So for example a weapon has a AP of 4 then you reduce 2 from your armour save, for example a Space Marine’s 3+ would become 5+.

AP Modifier
1 -5
2 -4
3 -3
4 -2
5 -1
6 -1*
None None
*This minus one only applies if the weapon’s strength value is equal to or greater then 5.

Terminator Armour: To keep terminator the same points value using these rules their save has been reduced to 3+, but they still receive their 5+ invulnerable save. But if you wish you could play them as 2+, if you do so the cost of terminator armour as Wargear costs and extra 10 points. Terminators themselves cost an extra 10 points each.

Large Blast / Ordnance Blast Templates

All the rules for placing the blast template works like normal, except place down the smallest (3 inch) blast template first. Any models fully or partially under this template suffer a strength hit equal to that of the weapon. Once these rolls to wound have been worked out place the large blast template directly over the smaller one, roll to hit partials like normal. Any models hit by this blast template (do not include the ones already hit by the smaller one) suffer strength hits equal to that of half the weapons strength (rounding up). For armour save purposes, models hit by the large template halve the AP modifier rounding up, if the modifier is one to begin with then it is reduced to none.

Over-watch

In a game a single unit per army can go one over-watch at one time (another unit can go one over-watch at the same time per 500 points the game is over 1000, so in a 2000 point game three units can be on over-watch at one time). You declare a unit going on over-watch at the start of your turn, this unit must pass a LD test to go on over-watch, if they fail the order has not been received and can not go over-watch this turn and count as having moved (so can not move any further this turn), you cannot then nominate another unit. If the unit goes on over-watch they cannot move or attempt to go to ground, although they may shoot in the shooting phase like normal but if they do this they are taken off over-watch.

A unit on over-watch can declare to interrupt your opponent’s movement or assault phase. If they move a unit that can be targeted the over-watching unit may shoot at it like normal (your opponent is allowed to move each model 1 inch before the shooting takes place). Work out the shooting as you normally would, your opponent taking pinning or morale tests like normal. Once this shooting has been resolved the opponent continues his turn. Once the over-watching unit has performed its shots it is taken off over-watch. This unit acts normally in its next turn and can even attempt to go on over-watch again.

Invulnerable Saves

Invulnerable Saves are the same as normal except they can always be made after failed armour saves. So for example chaplain fails his armour save, he would then get the chance to make his Invulnerable Save. Invulnerable Saves are not modified by weapon strengths.

KingNova3000
25-11-2005, 00:07
CLOSE COMBAT

Pistols in Combat

The pistol weapon type is designed for close range shooting, where the enemy is right on top of you. In close combat a model armed with a pistol is able to fire a single shot at their initiative value in the assault phase using their WS instead of BS, the shot has the same characteristics as the pistol type (so a model hit by a plasma pistol is treated as being shot by a plasma pistol). But shooting in hand-to-hand can be a dangerous action, as a friendly model may get in the way or the shooter may fire upon their self. To represent this any 1 rolled to hit with a pistol hits a friendly model within 2 inches (selected by your opponent) OR if there are no friendly models the model has shot it self, roll to wound and save etc. A model does not get cover saves when fired at by a pistol in close combat. A pistol that suffers the get hot rules will over heat on a 1 but will hit the shooter or friendly model on a roll of a 2.

If a model shoots with its pistol then it does not gain +1 for having an additional close combat weapon. So for example an Assault Marine has chainsword and bolt pistol, he can perform 2 basic attacks or 1 close combat attack and one bolt pistol shot.


Armour Saves in Combat

In combat armour save modifiers are worked out by the weapons strength rather then AP value (unless of course you are shooting a pistol). Stronger the wielder of the weapon the more it will reduce armour. Some weapons may have strength bonuses and or additional armour save modifiers (see power weapons for one example).

STRENGTH ARMOUR SAVE
1 -
2 -
3 -
4 -
5 -1
6 -2
7 -2
8 -3
9 -4
10 -5

Using two hands

A models armed with a close combat weapons can choose to use them with two hands, making the strike more powerful. Before any rolls to hit are made in combat declare if you are going to use two hands. If a unit is using two hands all models within the unit that have close combat weapons must use two hands (this does not include independent characters who are apart of the unit). The models add +1 to their basic strength (this can be further increased with furious charge) but take a –1 from their initiative value (this does not effect sweeping advance rolls). Models armed with two close combat weapons do not get the extra +1 attack and they cannot use any other weapon. The unit will continue to use two hands until the start of the next round of combat.

Bikes, Jet Bikes, Beasts and Cavalry

These types of units are fast hard hitting units that drive into combat hit the enemy and continue on their way. To represent this these types of units gain the Hit and Run universal special rule. This cannot be made close combat attacks against vehicles without a WS.

Parry

A player can opt to parry at the start of close combat (except the first round if they charged), if they do so the unit becomes initiative 0 and –2 from their number of attacks. When rolling to hit against a unit parrying, all successful rolls to hit have to be re-rolled (after any re-rolls in the case of master crafted or any other re-rolls of misses are rolled). Parries cannot be made if the majority of the enemy models (within the danger zone) have a strength value (after modifiers) double or higher then the majority of the defending models’ (within the danger zone) strength values. So for example a space marine with strength of 4 couldn’t parry a terminator with a powerfist at strength 8.

VEHICLES

Vehicles and Splitting Fire

A vehicle can choose to split their fire with a single weapon. In other words one other weapon can shoot at another viable target, but this one weapon suffers a minus –1 from its BS value.

Twin-Linked

Twin-linked weapons may be used in two ways. Either to shoot staggered, one of the weapons shoots whilst the other will only shoot if the first missed the target. If it shot like this misses can be re-rolled. Option two is for both the weapons to shoot together; although this can be more effective accuracy can go down. If it shoots like this then both weapons are rolled to hit, except the vehicle suffers a –1 from it’s BS value (so a BS 4 becomes BS 3). Declare how a twin-linked weapon is shooting before rolling to shoot. A twin-linked weapon cannot split its fire if it shoots with the second option as a twin-linked weapon still counts as a single weapon.



Vehicle Cover

A vehicle benefits cover in the same way as infantry, except there is a slight difference. A vehicle has to be at least 50 percent in cover to benefit from it. The cover save though is taken after determining if the shot is penetrating or glancing hit. If the shot is a penetrating hit roll the cover save like normal, if passed the shot is downgraded to a glancing hit. If the shot was already a glancing hit roll your cover save, if the save is successful then the shot is ignored.

Vehicle Wrecks

After a vehicle is destroyed it is normally left on the table (unless a 6 on the ordnance table is rolled), fires will remain to burn of these wrecked vehicles, fires that can sometimes ignite ammo or un-burnt fuels. At the start of each players turn roll a D6 for each wrecked vehicle, on a result of 6 an incident has occurred. Roll on the incidents table below.






1: Small Explosion: A small explosion occurs, any models within 6 inches of the wreck must take a pinning test.
2: Moderate Explosion: A moderate explosion occurs, any models within 6 inches takes a wound on a roll of 5+ and must take a pinning test.
4: Large Explosion: A large explosion occurs, any models within 6 inches takes a wound on a roll of 4+ and must take a pinning test.
5: Powerful Explosion: As above but in addition wrecked vehicle is flipped into the air 2D6 inches in a random direction. Any models that come underneath the wreck move directly towards the closest board edge, enough inches to get them out of harms way.
6: Very Powerful Explosion: As result 4, but within 6+D6inches. After wounds have been resolved remove the wrecked vehicle, as it has been blow to fragments.

KingNova3000
25-11-2005, 00:08
SPECIAL WEAPONS AND EQUIPMENT RULES


Shuriken Catapults: Have the profile as below…

Strength: 4 AP: 5 Range: 18’’/12’’, Assault 1/2

If a model armed with a catapult moves their range is reduced down to 12’’ but the weapon becomes Assault 2.

Power Weapons and Fists

Power Weapons have a further –2 armour modifier, instead of ignoring armour saves. Powerfists doubles the users strength and –4 from their initiative to a minimum of 1, additionally they have a further –2 armour modifier, instead of ignoring armour saves. Powerfists cannot be used two handed. Necron “we’ll be back” rolls and “feel no pain” rolls can’t be made from power weapon or fist attacks.

Lightning Claws

Are treated like Power Weapons (as above), but apart from that keep their same rules. Lightning claws cannot be used two handed.

Rending

Is exactly the same, but instead of ignoring armour saves the enemy suffers a further –2 from their armour save. Necron “we’ll be back” rolls and “feel no pain” rolls can’t be made from rending close combat attacks.


Heavy Close Combat Weapons

Enemy models suffer a further –1 from their armour saves in addition to any modifiers. Heavy close combat weapons can be used two handed, but if so the user suffers a further –1 from their initiative.

Grenades

All grenades follow the below rules except for Melt-Bombs and EMP Grenades.

Frag / Photon Grenades: Strength 4 AP-, Small Blast,
Krak Grenades: Strength 6 AP-, Small Blast
Plasma: Strength 5 AP6, Small Blast
Stick Bombs: Strength 3, AP5, Small Blast

A model armed with grenades may declare to throw a single grenade in the shooting phase. If an entire unit has grenades then declare how many models are throwing them. A thrown grenade has the range equal to that of the throwers base strength doubled. Now place a small template down within range of the target, measuring from the furthest model throwing a grenade. Now if a line of sight can be drawn roll the scatter dice and a single D6, if no line of sight can be drawn from any model throwing a grenade then an additional D6 is rolled (see barrage weapons on pg31 for full scatter rules).

Once the location of the blast is determined each model under the template is hit once on a 4+ (5+ for partials) for every model throwing a grenade. So for example 4 grenades were thrown so each model under the template has 4 chances of being hit and wounded. A grenade looses strength away from the central detonation, to represent this models not under the hole of the blast marker are hit with the grenades strength with a minus –1.


Example: Two enemy models are hit with 4 krak grenades, lucky for them none are under the central hole so will suffer 4 strength 5 hits each. Models anywhere within the unit can be removed (even out of range and sight) as this represents individual grenades bouncing and rolling.

Note: Due to short range of grenades its very possible for them to scatter back into the throwing unit, so be careful of this.

Because grenades now have an increased ability their current cost price is increased by 150 percent (rounding up), so a space marine krak grenade costs 5 points each (2+150%=5).

A unit has a single type of grenade per model. So for example a tactical squad of 10 has 10 frag grenades. No more then 10 grenades can be thrown per game. But sometimes models will be taken out of action before they can throw grenades, this is no problem as its possible for grenades to be salvaged from dead comrades. So for example the same tactical squad is reduced down to only a single marine, in this case this single marine gains all 10 unused grenades.

Any members that throw a grenade cannot shoot a normal ranged weapon in the same turn.

Smoke Grenades
Smoke grenades follow the same rules as normal grenades, but instead of causing damage they create clouds of thick smoke. Declare how many models are throwing smoke grenades as you would a normal grenade. Then roll to scatter using the normal grenade rules. Instead of placing down a blast marker, put down a coin where the throw has landed. Now from this coin a field of smoke with a diameter equal to the number of grenades thrown. So 8 smoke grenades would cause an 8-inch diameter circle.

No line of sight can be drawn through this diameter (unless located on a higher level), and any models totatly within it cannot see out of it (even if they have a greater level value), or be seen. Although it is possible for blast weapons to scatter into the unseen models. This cloud of smoke has a level of 2 in the first turn it is thrown, then in the next turn this level increases to 3, then the next turn it goes to level 4 and so on. At the start of each players turn roll a D6 and on a 4+ the smoke cloud looses 1 inch from its diameter, once the cloud reaches a diameter of zero the smoke has blown away completely.

Range Detectors

An army may purchase range detectors, this allows them to pre-measure any of their own movement, charge or weapon ranges. This cost 2% of the army size, so for a 1500 point army it would cost an additional 30 points.

Knowledge of the Enemy

An army can gain excellent knowledge of the enemy, how fast they are and the range of their weapons. This allows you to pre-measure any movement, charge or weapon ranges of your opponent’s army. This an additional 5% of the army size, so for a 1500 point army it would cost 75 points.



EXTRA ADVANCED TURN SEQUENCE
&
ADDITIONAL MISC. RULES

Instead of the usual you-go-I-go or also known as YGIG sequence you and your opponent may decide to use this advanced system.

At the start of a new turn both players roll a D6, the highest scoring has gained the initiative, if a draw is rolled the player who LOST the initiative last turn gains it this turn. If a draw is rolled in the first turn the players simply roll off again. Once the initiative has been determined players enter the Regroup Phase.


Regroup Phase

Starting with the player with the initiative they take it in turns to make regroup tests for any of their units that require so. Once all attempts at regrouping have been made, the players enter the Fall Back Phase.

Fall Back Phase

Starting with the player who has gained the initiative they take it in turns to make any required fall back moves. Once all required moves are made the players now enter the Movement Phase.

Movement Phase

The player who won the initiative can choose to either move a single unit first or after they have seen what their opponent moves. Once the player with the initiative decides who will move a unit first the players take it in turns making any unit moves, following all the normal movement rules. Once players have completed their moves they will then go to the Shooting Declaration Phase.

Shooting Declaration Phase

The player who won the initiative can choose to either declare a target or declare after their opponent. Once who is declaring first is decided the players take it in turns declaring what units will be shooting at what, when a unit has declared a target any LD test are made in regards to targeting (like normal). Once all declarations are made, the players move onto the Shooting Phase.

The Shooting Phase

Units shooting at units is now performed, it doesn’t matter who goes first or second in this phase because it’s all meant to be simultaneous. Resolve each units shooting one at a time. Once casualties have been inflected lay down the dead models if they haven’t fired yet, once all units have resolved any shooting any laying down models are removed like normal. Once this has been completed any required morale tests are made, any that fail will fall back now. Once all shooting is finished the players move onto the Assault Phase.



Assault Phase

The player who won the initiative can choose to make a charge move first or second (going second can come in handy for counter charging). Once who is going first is resolved the players then take it in turns making any charge moves into combat, following all normal rules. If a unit is charged they a locked into combat and can not make a charge move themselves I they haven’t had the chance to do so far. Once all charges have been resolved the players move onto the Combat Resolution Phase.



Combat Resolution

This is when combat is worked out; all normal rules apply as normal. Once all combats have been resolved all required morale tests are made, all fall back and pursuit moves are made just like normal. Once this phase is finished players start the next turn at the Regroup Phase.

Strategic Points
(can only be used with the Extra Advanced Turn Sequence)

Each army has a number of strategic points, these points represent the extraordinary power you as the Commander has over your force. A player can use these points at any time through out a game…

1. A point can be spent to give you +1 on an initiative roll.
2. A point can be spent to allow a re-roll of any single die.
3. A point can be spent to give a +1 to combat resolution.
4. A point can be spent to make a unit stubborn for a turn.

Player may out bid one another in Strategic points, for example if a player uses a point their opponent can use a point to cancel out that point, then the other player may use a point to cancel out that point and etc. Point bidding will most likely happen when a point is spent in a crucial situation.

The number of points each player has is equal to the game size divided by 250 (rounding up). So a 1500-point game has 6 strategic points.

RULE PROBLEMS?
Its very possible a rule issue may come up that these advance rules might alter, if this is the case it is up to the players to make a sound decision amongst one another.

Azhrahg
25-11-2005, 11:12
It looks rather interesting, especially the changes in the way saves work - I have had thoughts along the same lines. I would probably include choppas and khornate chainaxes in the rules as well, with a -1 save modifier.
However I don't understand you save modifiers:

Adv. Penetrating Fire

In standard 40k weapons have fixed AP value, meaning if you have a 4+ save you donít have to worry about your armour being ignored by AP 5 weapons. But in things now work a little differently. Roll your armour saves like normal but minus the weapons Armour Penetration modifier. So for example a weapon has a AP of 4 then you reduce 3 from your armour save, for example a Space Marineís 3+ would become 4+.

AP Modifier
1 -5
2 -4
3 -3
4 -2
5 -1
6 -1*
None None
*This minus one only applies if the weaponís strength value is equal to or greater then 5.


A power armour hit by a heavy bolter would be 3 - 3 = 6+, as I understand your chart, and not 4+ as you state. It is probably because I have misunderstood something, but I can't get my head around what it could be.

The main problem with these rules are game balance. I wouldn't mind playing with them for the fun of it, but I am not sure how different armies will be affected. It would be great if GW could be bothered to make a thorougly playtested version of advanced 40k along these lines.


Azhrahg

A neutral shade of black.
25-11-2005, 11:29
A power armour hit by a heavy bolter would be 3 - 3 = 6+, as I understand your chart, and not 4+ as you state. It is probably because I have misunderstood something, but I can't get my head around what it could be.

The heavy bolter is AP4, therefore inflicts a negative save modifier of two points. Power armour saves at 3 + 2 = 5+. Both of you were wrong. :P

The rules are decent. Two points: cover saves, because of what you yourself mentioned, and weapon AP, which I wouldn't mind seeing it use the standard WFB S/AS charts. By the way, just out of curiosity: did you get both tables (AP and S in CC) from previous versions of 40k?

Hoshi No Koe
25-11-2005, 14:26
I really like some of these rules. There are some problems in regards to the balance of some units though. Some units will lose a lot of their effectiveness with these rules while others will gain a lot. A couple of these rules are also a bit more complex than they need to be IMO and still have an interesting effect.
I'm making my own version of advanced rules and I'd like to steal some ideas from you if you don't mind.

Nice work.

Commissar von Toussaint
25-11-2005, 15:29
First off: good job. You're nailed just about every problem with the game. If 4th edition looked like this, I'd play it in a heartbeat.

One thing you may want to consider is whether you are coming at this from the wrong end.

A few years ago I too was looking at ways to fix 40k. Eventually I gave up because there were too many little things and I didn't want to rewrite the rule book.

I played VOID for a while until one day my nephew asked me what all the figures and books were for. I told him they were for 40k, but that I didn't play any more and was thinking of selling them. He asked what the problems were and I told him. Then he noticed another rule book on the shelf. "Why do you still have that?"

It was 2nd edition. I pulled it down and explained that it was a better rules system and that I liked it quite a bit in the day. So he said: "Well, let's try that one, then."

The rest as they say is history.

I bring this up because what I found was that it was easier to upgrade 2nd than to revamp 4th. Obviously, results may vary. I've made a ton of home-brewed rules of my own and I'm always out there to support new efforts.

Quite frankly, yours are the best I've seen. :) So by all means keep it up, particularly if your friends/gaming group find these a better fit.

For my area, it was easier to convince folks to dust off the older books and write up a sheet of erratta/updates.

But this is definately an improvement.

KingNova3000
26-11-2005, 01:21
Howdy all thanks for the replies and the positive comments. As for the heavy bolter and space marine armour save query, thats a mistake on my part the table in a previous version used to be different, in that version a heavy bolter made a marines save 4+. Granted there are lots of grey areas to cover and balance issues. As for the balance issues I'm not too concerned, as I think you'll find a lot of units become unbalanced but in a way that balances it, if you can make any sense of that! The reason I have written these rules if for my mates, who talk about how they would play 40k more if the rules were better. I suggested perhaps we could make our own advanced rules, well when I said "we" I might aswell said "I". All my mates are in their 30's and 40's and have a family to support, me being the youngest at 18 without a family to support has the time to write it, so I got stuck in.

On another forum (WargamerAU) I have posted these up, I'm explaining grey areas there with another member. I will post the FAQ (lol I posted this only yesterday and its already got a FAQ, heh).

THE F.A.Q
PART I


Hey thanks for the reply Pullsyjr you have brought up some excellent points. It often takes another person to pick up grey areas.

[quote]MOVEMENT PHASE query

I like the fact that there is a Ld test required. However, how does this affect Fearless units? Can IC's go to ground? I can't recall what the Stealth rule entails, so I'm presuming that as soon as the unit makes any further action, the ability is lost..?

Ah okay the rules for Fearless models is that they never have to take a MORALE test and never get pinned, a straight LD test is not a morale test. So there for fearless models still have to take any LD tests that are not morale checks.

As for the stealth rule it grants them a +1 cover save, but I did forget to mention as soon as the unit moves they loose this.


Running

This is fair, but what about models that can Fof? Can they opt to use a burst of (more) speed to get the extra D3 move?

No fleet models can not gain an extra boost, as a run is only D3 a fleeting model can potentially move a lot faster with a D6.

THE SHOOTING PHASE


Cover Saves

You'll end up making MEq even harder to kill, whilst the 5+ and worse save armies gain nothing. I agree with the design note you've written but as a rule mechanic, it's inherently flawed.

I agree that it will make power armour armies even harder to kill no doubt about it what so ever, but dont forget their is now armour modifiers so chances are they will only be getting a cover save and a reduced armour save. I didn't want to add a -1 to the BS for shooting into cover as this throws the balance of armies like guard and orks out.


Splitting Fire

Multi-trackers (at 10 points per pop) are now redundant, as is the SW Grey Hunter (I think it's them) ability to split fire. Whilst not a game killer, it reduces the uniqueness that this option brings to the relevant armies.

Mult-trackers and Long Fangs are not required to make a LD test. A model with a mult-tracker is able to shoot at another target even if the unit it has joined is splitting fire to two other seperate targets (I will write a FAQ for equipment like this), so if anything Mult-trackers have become a little better, allowing a unit to potentially fire at three targets.


Aimed Fire

Isn't this the IG Sharpshooter ability, with the proviso that the unit must be stationary? Instead, what about giving +1 to hit? Also, how does this affect Slow and Purposeful? They could theoretically always benefit from this rule.

Indeed it is the IG sharpshooter ability, but the difference is that a IG sharpshooter is able to perform this on the move. As for slow and purposal that is something I over looked, I will make sure that if any unit moves even say terminators for example can not aim.


Adv. Penetrating Fire

Urgh. I really don't like this. You'd be better off using the Fantasy strength modifiers (starting at S5 = -1). I know what you're trying to do here but it really limits the usefulness of armour. How about saying (for example):
AP6 = +1 (or re-roll failed saves)
AP5 = 0
AP4 = -1
AP3 = -2
AP2 = -3
AP1 = -4

I don't know why you want to change Terminator armour. I really don't.


I was using the fantasy AR rules at first, but I realised weapons in fantasy dont have a AP value only strength values. I left the armour reductions to the AP value rather then strength because it made weapons such as a Auto Cannon a marine killer, there for throwing its points out of wack. Some weapons have the higher hitting power but not a good penetrating power.

I changed the terminator armou because of the fact that Invulnerable saves can no be taken like fantasy Ward saves.


Large Blast / Ordnance Blast Templates

I see the rule; I understand the rule; I don't know what benefit this rule would have besides severely hamstringing ordinance.

There isn't ment to be a benefit, quite the opposite. I have done this to represent that blast weapons aren't the same strength for the entire radius of the large blast, the main power of the blast in closer to the point of impact. It makes pie plates in larger numbers less overpowering.



Over-watch

Good to limit it to one unit only: Again, do Fearless units need to test? Can vehicles overwatch? What about splitting fire - can an over-watching unit target two separate enemies?

Yeap I added the strict limit so you wouldn't get armies such as Tau chopping the enemy up in there turn. As I explained earlier fearless models still take straight LD tests. Over-watching can not split fire (unless they have multi-trackers or are long fangs).


Invulnerable Saves

A shout out to second edition... Could work considering there's very few models with an Invulnerable save. May turn the game into Herohammer even more than it is now.

Indeed it is, but once again I'm going towards realism (hard to say with 40k) then perfect balance. A character with a refractor shield should get their inv. save, currently it makes no sense that they only get it if a weapon ignores their armour. Once again with armour modifiers introduced, you'll find that the armour save will be reduced so kind of balancing it out.


Armour Saves in Combat

What about power weapons, choppas and other save-modifying cc weapons? They should have an additional benefit. Also, keep in mind that most S5 and better cc attacks count as PWs anyway, so this chart may not be all that useful. It's also odd to use AP with ranged weapons, but strength with cc attacks. Wouldn't the strength of a ranged weapon be just as important?

Power weapons and etc have their own rules section, as you have noticed in a later comment. I have used strength in combat for armour reduction to represent combat being a lot more bloody and brutal, driving swords into one another or daemons crushing people with their hands. As I mentioned above a weapon may have the strength but not always the penetrating ability, take a turbo penetrator bolter round same strength value but a better AP.


Using two hands

Not all weapons are made to be used two handed... For example, the standard sabre type weapon modelled on minis is strictly a single handed type. You'd be better off in allowing units with CCWs to purchase bastard sword equivalents for an additional +2-3 points per model. This increase in points offsets the benefit of allowing the player to pick and choose attack types.

I like your idea a lot!. So any model that can take close combat weapons can have a bastard sword (or equivilant) weapon for +2 points if they have a base strength value of 4 or less, +3 if they have a base strength of 5 or more perhaps.


Parry

Make the Parry ability unusable when the enemy S is +2 or more than the S of the defenders. Other than that, nice idea.

Yeap that makes perfect sense.

KingNova3000
26-11-2005, 01:22
F.A.Q
Part II


Heavy Close Combat Weapons

Hasn't this been covered in the 'Two Handed Weapons' part above? If it's separate, then are they cumulative effects?

These a weapons such as Ork Choppas and Khornate Chain axes. Because of the bastard sword option (being a different weapon) the effects do not stack.


Vehicles and Splitting Fire

Which weapon gets -1 to hit? The controller's choice? May be easier to say that both suffer the penalty.

The one weapon that is splitting its fire suffers the penalty. So for example I shot my twin-linked lascannon on my predator to a different target that the predators two heavy bolters are shooting at, so the lascannons suffer the -1 not the heavy bolters.


Twin-Linked

Instead of changing the BS of the vehilce, just say it's -1 to hit. That will keep the rule in line with existing penalties for shooting. You've written the rule funny, but I know what you mean with the declaring bit.

Yeah your right, when I say reduce the BS I in effect mean -1, some parts of this was typed at early hours of the morning :D.


Vehicle Cover

Instead of ignoring the shot, how about making it -1 on the damage table instead? That means tanks won't become near-indestructible behind terrain. Also, you didn't specify what the cover save value is: I'm presuming it's not the same as for infantry...?

I like your idea for the minus one on the glancing table. As for the cover save value itself it is the same as normal cover, so ruins it would 4+ whilst a light wood would be 6+.


Vehicle Wrecks

Wow. That's nasty. Is it necessary though? You could instead say that when an incident occurs, the vehicle suffers further damage as stated on the Ordinance Damage Table, rolling 3+D3 to find the result.

Not really necessary, more of an optional rule if you and your oppoent just wanted to add some more colour to the game.


Grenades

Interesting. I don't like the scavenging part of the rule (a single model can carry multiple grenades) as that could get extremely difficult to keep track of how many a model is carrying.

Changing the price of grenades can also alter the army. What if a player only wants Frag Grenades for the purpose of negating cover?

I think you should allow the throwing of the things (as you've put right at the start), but say the whole unit needs to chuck em at once, and that each model has multiples of the things. It reduces the paperwork required, and doesn't bog down the whole "he's shooting, he's not, he would have but he used his before" scenario.

I have used the scavenging rule to elimate paper work. For example a unit of ten would have ten grenades, and three models throw grenades so the units "grenade pool" if you will, is now reduced to 7. If the unit is shot at and is reduced to only three models, those three models still have access to those 7 grenades from their grenade pool. So keeping track of grenades thrown can be a tally on your army list or a D10 next to the unit.


Smoke Grenades

Who gets to use these grenades? Can they be used offensively (bunker clearing)? What cost are they?

Also, smoke dissipates quickly in this game. A tank billowing a cloud of smoke should have a longer duration. In game terms, the cloud should last one turn.

As for who gets them and their cost, I still havent decided, I have only just put their rules in there, so when the option becomes available to take them the rules for them are known. Lasting one turn, I like that, I was using my system for smoke grenades to make them more random, but it can bog a game down.


Movement Phase

So the first player moves one unit, then the other moves one; like Deployment? This will give a huge advantage to the player with most units, but it's difficult to get around that.

Yes so players take it in turns moving units, it is a huge advantage to large unit count armies but that a benefit of playing a larger army. Might see less marine armies and more horde armies.


Shooting Declaration Phase

I don't like this. Declaration and shooting should be one and the same. Doing things this way may present a lot of issues, primarily that of responsive (or revenge) shooting. It just seems 'yuck'.

This is taken straight from classic battletech, although it seems yuck it works quite well. Revenge shooting can be made in the next turn. But of course you could play ignoring this phase and declare targets in the shooting phase.


Assault Phase

What about failed charges (are the models unmoved like the current ruels)? I can see this becoming a very important stage. Incredibly messy too. I'm leaning towards the "I like it" stance.

Failed charges are not moved, nothing in the rules really change, just that players take it in turns charging. This can ulter the game completely an enemy unit could charge your UNIT A, and you could counter charger the enemy unit with UNIT B, then the enemy could then counter charge you counter charging UNIT B. Makes for a lot more brutal close combat phase.[/quote]

KingNova3000
26-11-2005, 01:32
The rules are decent. Two points: cover saves, because of what you yourself mentioned, and weapon AP, which I wouldn't mind seeing it use the standard WFB S/AS charts. By the way, just out of curiosity: did you get both tables (AP and S in CC) from previous versions of 40k?

As for the tables I created these. In my FAQ you'll see why I have used AP values for shooting and strength values for combat.

Although some weapons have an high impact power some may have a low penetrating power, impact power is fantastic for something with no protection but something with armour requires a weapon with a penetrating power. For example take a Ork shoota compared to a boltgun, same hitting power (Str 4) but the bolgun has a much better penetrating power compared to the shoota (AP 5 compared to AP6). It would be unfair to make an ork shoota as deadly as a marine bolter. The also applies to a heap of other weapons, such as a Autocannon; very high impact power (Str 7) but not the greatest penetrating power (AP 4), if I were to use a fantasy style strength based armour reduction table a weapon like the autocannon would be killing anything including terminators with a -4 armour modifier.

KingNova3000
30-11-2005, 04:20
Any one still interested in this?

KingNova3000
30-11-2005, 08:03
Ah good idea Nurglitch...now to work out how to do it :D

Gonka Koff
02-12-2005, 19:33
I use clicktoconvert for pdf creation. I have never tried anything else, so the might be better stuff around. But this work good and is free (if you don't mind some watermarks that reminds you you didn't pay for it :evilgrin: )
After you have installed the program, it pops up as one of your printer, you can now make pdf from everything you can print!

http://www.clicktoconvert.com

BTW, I hope this is not considering illegal advertising, the stuff is free:angel:

SilverFeather
03-12-2005, 23:34
Sound great... do you mind if I translate it for my groups, so we can playtest it?

KingNova3000
04-12-2005, 12:19
Go for it, more play testing the better!

KingNova3000
04-12-2005, 12:35
Okay I have since updated the rules and have cut some things out so armies like Space Marine wouldn't get huge benefits. I will have these up for download as a PDF file soon.