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xacatecas
12-12-2008, 10:12
Basically, this guy I know has this incredibly cheesy dark elf army and neither me nor my girlfriend or anyone else for that matter have yet to beat him. :)
Now before anyone says something along the lines that we should tell him that its no fun playing against him and hes cheesy etc. We would really appreciate some advice on how to beat him, if only some advice on how to stay alive long enough :) okay, so here is his army list.

*1 dreadlord on a dragon, we know he has pendant of kaeleth and at least a 2+ armour save. Perhaps he changes it sometimes.

*2 Hydras (they attack together in the middle.)

*15 cold one knights and malus in their squad. probably with some awesome banner.

*5x dark riders
*5x dark riders
*10 repeater xbow men
*a sorceress who carries dispel scrolls

so any advice as to how to beat this army would be greatly appreciated :)
he doesnt have many units, but with that army he doesnt really need them...

Fenix_
12-12-2008, 10:47
and you play with...?

I assume that he will be using the ring of hotek somewhere (maybe the cold ones champion) If not, a strong magic phase can hurt him

Try to kill the dragon, avoid the hydras breath until you can cause some wounds, and try to force the knights into charging some stubborn or unbreakable unit to hold them...all of this is easier to say than to actually do, i know...
without knowing the armies you play it's difficult to give more concrete advice

3Xhume
12-12-2008, 11:25
Play dwarfs with 2 cannon, 4 bolt thrower, immune to fear and terror blocks, and kick his ass.....

xacatecas
12-12-2008, 13:30
I play with woodelves, and my girlfriend plays dark elves, though our armies arent really cheesy. He still goes unbeaten by anyone.

cougar_roger
12-12-2008, 13:55
I run dark elves and would counter this list with a strong magic/shooty army.

Take a lvl 4 on a pegasus with the lore of fire, the pendant, and the black staff. Lore of fire will kill any regen rolls the hydras get so they only have their 4+ scaly skin save. Take a lvl 2 with the darkstar cloak and another lvl 2 with the tome of furion. I would take lore of shadow with the other two and statistically you should draw the creeping death spell. This spell is the achilles heel of the pendant. The ring of hotek is either with the COK unit or the dragon, so just try to target the unit not carrying it. Bring harpies and dark riders for some redirect and two chariots to counter with would be nice. A unit of black guard can usually withstand a charge from dragons and knights so that are essential.

Here's a sample 2K list.

Lvl 4 sorceress, pendant, black staff, pegasus
Lvl 2 sorceress, tome of furion
lvl 2 sorceress, darkstar cloak

25 warriors, full command, shields, war banner
10 crossbowmen, shields, guardmaster
10 crossbowmen, shields, guardmaster
5 harpies
5 harpies

2 Reaper bolt throwers
1 hydra

20 black guard, full command, banner of hag graef, crimson death
chariot
chariot

the lvl 2's go in the crossbow units, hence the guardmasters for challenges.

Hope that helps for the dark elf player, as for you, I'm not to sure there's much in your book to combat it. Maybe a lucky hail of arrows on the big knight unit?

The SkaerKrow
12-12-2008, 15:31
I'd give him a good hard slap upside the head for being a beardy git, personally.

Dooks Dizzo
12-12-2008, 16:28
I'd give him a good hard slap upside the head for being a beardy git, personally. Sore losers are every bit as bad as so called beardy players.

I for one appreciate the OP actually trying to develope some tactics and become a better general instead of throwing a whiney fit and talking about 'slapping people'.

The trick to taking out a Pendant Lord (aside from Creeping Death) is combat resolution. And combat res you don't have to get a good roll on the magic chart for :)

Try to get a block of spears with 5+ combat res into combat with him and then get someone on his flank as well, preferably Cold One Knights for some hitting power or maybe Black Guard for some Stubborn action.

The fact of the matter is that you're going to have to out play him, not out cheese him. Sucker him into fights that he can't score enough wounds to win.

If you want to stop Malus and the Cold Ones, get a big block of Black Guard with the ASF Banner and the Kouran the special character. Challenge with Kouran as he can almost certainly kill Malus and his armor would require him to pass a toughness test to get any attacks back!

With 15 Cold ones, you're not going to outnumber and your rank bonuses will be almost even, so you'll need to get something in there to help out. Prefarably something fast that can hit in the flank or you can back them up with a unit of Shades with Great weapons for some extra damage.

Dooks Dizzo
12-12-2008, 16:38
He doesn't seem to have a great deal of shooting so I would get some RBT's in there so that he has to come to you.

Maybe a Cauldron of Blood sitting behind a brick of Black Guard to back them up.

Crone Hellbron might not be your cup of tea but she can slaughter a dragon in a single turn of combat. If possible, ignore the lord with the PoK and try to kill his dragon as it is actually the softer of the two targets. (and is worth more VP's I believe!)

Honestly though, looking at his list you can probably get him with just tons of core. He has to come to you and big giant blocks of spears backed up with some hard hitting shades or even witch elves or Dark Riders.

I am looking to see if there is an assassin build that might help you out but not sure at the moment.

Lupinbell
12-12-2008, 16:49
I;d target the soft stuff, Dark Riders and Crossbowmen go down pretty quickly. Once they do go after the nastys.

The SkaerKrow
12-12-2008, 16:49
Sore losers are every bit as bad as so called beardy players.No, Dooks. Not a sore loser, I would never play someone with such an obnoxious and extremely min-maxed list. People that play that sort of list against more casual players aren't looking for a challenge or a fun experience, they're basically kicking-the-dog, wargames style.

But your tepid and short-sighted attempt at a backhanded response was charming, I'll give you that.

To the original poster: You're going to find that Elven armies tend to struggle very badly against Dragons when they don't have one of their own on the field. That's actually the largest problem that you'll face, not the Dreadlord, but his mount. You can misdirect the rest of his army with Glade/Dark Riders, hopefully positioning him where it's most advantageous for your forces (having no knowledge of what you actually have in your miniatures collection, it's hard to be more specific than that). Also, if he makes the mistake of positioning his Dark Riders or Crossbowmen within 6" of his Hydras, Dragons or CoKs, do whatever you can to wipe out the Dark Rider/Crossbow unit. It's a gamble, but I've managed to panic large sections of opposing armies off the table just by wiping out a vulnerable unit and letting the ensuing panic rolls (yes, even against Leadership 10) do the rest.

Dooks Dizzo
12-12-2008, 17:18
Personally I feel that there is much more joy in beating someone who brings such lists. The look on their face when you beat them regardless of the strength of their list is priceless.

I think anyone refusing to play someone who is using the rules provided for them by GW is lacking in class.

Using a level 4 with Fire Lore seems like a strong way to go against a list that seriously lacks for magical defense. I do believe you still get the Power of Darkness spell even if you don't take the Dark Arts, so you've got some serious hitting power there.

Cold One Knights can kill a Dragon on the charge, though they want him to be wounded a bit first. A Bolt Thrower has a fair chance to hit and a 50/50 to wound a dragon with D3 wounds being caused per hit. So you have a good chance of softening him up a bit before you strike home.

You could also go for a bit of a spoiler on him. Take a PoK yourself and try to lock up his Lord with rounds of neither of you being able to cause serious wounds. If you can get him to sit still for a second you can maybe get some extra units in there to flank and add combat res and hopefully beat him that way.

Looking at it the guys list isn't that cheesy. It's tough against his DE's and WE's but Vampires, cannon heavy Empire, High Elves with lots of Magic and of course Daemons would all have a good time with him.

Edit: It also strikes me that this guy might be a really good player as well. His army has some serious weaknesses so if he is still beating all comers he just might be a good general.

Some people bring lists like this because they cannot afford a lot of models or don't have the time to paint them. Not because they are just big cheese balls.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
12-12-2008, 17:24
He doesn't seem to have a great deal of shooting so I would get some RBT's in there so that he has to come to you.

RBT against an army that will be charging by Turn 3 at the latest?


I think anyone refusing to play someone who is using the rules provided for them by GW is lacking in class.

No, people who creat obnoxious, min-maxed armies for casual games lack class. For tournaments, etc. that kind of thing is fine, but for friendly play in a casual setting it is uncalled for. The argument of "GW lets me do it, so I'm going to do it" just doesn't fly.

g0ddy
12-12-2008, 17:25
Level 4 w/ Lore of METAL Imho... and the Bound Dark Power...

Flaming 2D6 S4 magic missile for the hydras... Rule of Burning Iron and Spirit of the Forge for the cold ones... The dragon cant kill you by himself :)

~ Zilla

Dooks Dizzo
12-12-2008, 17:37
The RBT's aren't bad against this list. They're good against his fast cav, can thin down his Knights or even plink a wound or two off the dragon. I'd probably take 3 or 4 and seriously punish him for a few turns. 4 of them is 48 shots over 2 turns which is nothing to scoff at and he doesn't have anything that can answer back really.

I would recommend the Tome of Furion if you're really counting on a spell. 5 chances to get it is better than 4! Of course it takes the slot of the Black Staff so probably not a good plan...

But he's got 3 dispel dice and 2 scrolls, it's not enough to stop you for more than a turn or two.



For tournaments, etc. that kind of thing is fine, but for friendly play in a casual setting it is uncalled for. And how is someone supposed to tune up for tourny play without getting a few games in first?

Look if you're running a really fun themed army that isn't so powerful, make sure to talk to people before you play them and get a feel for what they're up to. If they are running a souped up tourny list, just let them know that neither of you are going to have fun.

But that's a lot different than slapping people and refusing to play. It's also a lot more mature to just have a conversation with someone and find some middle ground than stomping your feet like a child and far more productive.

Peril
12-12-2008, 17:42
Treesing until Malus is caught in some trees and is effectively stuck for the game. How does the Pendant interact with the Spirit Sword? Maybe try for killing blow from some Wardancers on the Dreadlord? Their strength is relatively low. Maybe a Wardancer kindred lord with Annyance of Nettlings? Zap him with some low Str magic missiles?

Goruax
12-12-2008, 17:42
Step 1) Buy the Warriors of Chaos Armybook
Step 2) Find a really cheap way of getting your core
Step 3) Buy 4 Sorcerers
Step 4) Build a Tzeentch magic-heavy list and hit him with as many Infernal Gateways and Flickering Fires as possible.
Step 5) Win or Lose, depending on how many IG's you get :p

Dooks Dizzo
12-12-2008, 17:46
Low strength attacks don't work well against the Pendant Lord.

He's got a 2+ armor save that you have to get through first and then even S3 gives him a 50/50 to save.

W0lf
12-12-2008, 17:53
Take a unkillable dreadlord witht he pendant. Put him in a block of spearmen with warbanner.

Challenge with the dreadlord, (he cant refuse) and you will win easily. With his dragon and lord likely doing 1/0 wounds to you you will be winning by 5 (3 ranks, stand, warbanner, outnumber) then attack his vunerable dragon for extra killness. This is unlikely i know but the point stands, get him into a challenge with your own dreadlord and let static do the work.

Take 4 bolt throwers, dont mess around. You will force him to be very causious with his dragon and 24 S4 armour piecring shots will destroy cold one knights like no tommorow. Plus 4 single bolts can kill a Dragon with fairly good odds (below 50% yes, but still)

Id also suggest 2 units of 6 cold one knights for versatility.

Its a hard MU to really comment on without playing the game myself.

Lord of Skulls
12-12-2008, 18:00
Regular low-strength attacks aren't very good, but a couple of strength 3 Killing Blows should sort him out;)

A largish unit of Waywatchers should be able to put a scare into both the lord on dragon and the knights.

W0lf
12-12-2008, 18:06
waywatchers put a scare on knights???

Thats a myth. People seriously over estimate their KB arrows.

Oh and id highly suggest against shades/way watchers. S5 breath weapon on a mobile platform = death.

xacatecas
12-12-2008, 18:10
thanks for all the replies :)


Some people bring lists like this because they cannot afford a lot of models or don't have the time to paint them. Not because they are just big cheese balls.

well his army would probably be more expensive than most armies because of the hydra and dragon mainly, plus he works at games workshop, so getting stuff cheap would be no obstacle for him. but yeh, it has a lot of weaknesses, but to see what I mean I'll list my girlfriends army. she does not work at games workshop so cant go out and buy some random things btw ;)

morathi
sorceress lvl 1
master on a pegasus (with pendant of kaeleth)
5x dark riders
10x crossbowmen
10x spearmen
black guard + kouran (15 of them) and always strike first banner
17 witch elves with armour piercing
hydra
2x bolt thrower (although she sometimes swaps between this and another hydra)

tends to have focus familiar on morathi, cos its awesome and allows her to hide and cast her magic missiles if she is ever in combat.

his army has extreme amounts of speed, so we shouldnt underestimate his amounts of speed. Thanks to all the replies so far.

Chicago Slim
12-12-2008, 19:01
Same advice I always give when dealing with Big Things: Lead them by the nose, and limit what they're able to earn, while you obliterate the rest of his army.

It's all about creating pockets of localized superiority: if you can throw minimal-size, fast-moving units up in front of his dragon and (especially) his hydras, you should be able to force them into a situation where he really has only one viable target to charge-- and it'll run away, rally, and repeat. Eventually, he'll get ahold of your bait, but ideally that'll happen on about Turn 5, and he'll spend Turn 6 turning around to face the rest of your army...

It's harder to control his dragon in this way, since he can fly, but if you put pressure on him with powerful shooting (bolt throwers for you, Hail of Doom Arrow and lots of Glade Guard for your girlfriend-- even S3/S4 shots will make that dragon feel threatened after a turn or two), you should be able to force him to commit to something less optimal than he'd like.

Meanwhile, a couple of units of fast cavalry bottle up his hydras, and your infantry blows out the relatively small rest-of-his-army. Your goal is to commit 500 points to tying up his 1000, while your remaining 1500 works over his remaining 1000. This works because his 1000 points of Big Guys can only earn points in the close combat phase, while your 1500 have a more balanced approach (so even if his remaining 1000 points can outrun your 1500, you'll be shooting him down...)

Good luck, and enjoy.

ZiggyQubert
12-12-2008, 19:32
For DE, the killing blow assasin should do a good job of taking out the lord, extra hand weapon, +d3 attacks, killing blos, and reroll 1's to wound, should give you a good chance - althoug I forgit what str assasins are - 3 or 4....

Makarion
12-12-2008, 19:37
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Wood Elf option of a Spellweaver with Lore of Beasts yet. That should shut down the Cold One Knights, the Hydrae and the Dragon, after which you can use your excellent move-and-shoot range 30 longbows to deal with his light cavalry. You'll probably need a few powerstones to get it off more than once per turn on those critical occasions, but that's easily arranged.

orkz222
13-12-2008, 02:12
Play dwarfs with 2 cannon, 4 bolt thrower, immune to fear and terror blocks, and kick his ass.....

YEA = INSTA WIN

Blueskies
13-12-2008, 11:09
The DE army is just a variant on the terror heavy lists, 2 hydras and lord on dragon, at least there is no cauldron. Personally Master on Manticore + pendant + enchanted shield + lance + heavy + seadragon cloak is much better bang for your buck in the terror causing flyer as it leaves you alot more points for the rest of your army.

Terror heavy lists, just means he is playing hard hitters, but he lacks men on the field, the army is far from beardy because it has so many weaknesses, against alot of other armies the terror won't do much and he will be either heavily outnumbered or out magic'd with ease.

Anyways lets stick with DE vs DE. 2k

Master with soulrender and armour of darkness in unit of
13 blackguard with full command and hag grief banner unit champ given crimson death

Master bsb with heavy armour sea dragons cloak and shield and pearl of bleakness in a unit of 19 corsairs full command (change for the handbows) add war banner which

Sorc lvl 2 with guiding eye in unit of 19 repeater xbowmen with full command

Sorc lvl 2 with sacraficial dagger and in unit of 24 warrior full command

10 blackguard with unit champ.

10 repeater xbowmen

5 harpies
5 harpies

2 repeater bolt throwers


The basics here is that you have high static res everywhere, black guard with ASF and fair few good str attacks can easily stop some of their units cold, or at least make him think twice about getting close, if he can't break you which he shouldn't of a charge on any unit unless your very unlucky, then you can go in for the flank charges the next turn.
The dragon is the least of your worries as you can declare challenges with unit champs and win with combat res almost all the time, or at least he will fail to break you and you will get in both sides of the dragon.

Other black guard unit keep near the seaguard as stuborn with reroll keeps them solid and the seaguards are static res 7 to begin. don't forget about the hand bows if he tries to charge this unit with the hydra or dragon as thats alot of stand and shoot shots (large targets so everyone shoots)

The most troublesome unit in his army is the huge unit of cold ones, fly the furies out in front blocking his path but keeping your closest model off center as much as you can, if you are within 8 inches he is marched blocked, if he tries to maneuve around you he isn't moving far, if he charges, flee and force him to charge on a 45 degree angle, this will slow and tie up the unit sufficiently and may even turn it on it's side for your bolt throwers to rank pierce sideways.

2 lvl 2 sorc with lore of fire, he has a scroll caddy so its up to you, you can drop these both to lvl 1 and add the extra points elsewhere. these guys need to be in range of the hydras to keep him dispelling hard.

if you deploy well you can deploy your xbowmen in front of the hyrdas in 5x4 formation, they are large targets so you get to shoot with all 38 shots every turn and you have static res 5 in close. once he is in close, you can even open with guiding eye if he goes first, just fire with 3s to hit and rerolls with 38 shots even if it's 6's to wound armour regen blah blah, it's about chipping away at those hydras before they get into hth. If you can drop a hydra early it makes the other hydra not such a worry.

otherwise his army is just shooting, use your other 10 xbows to shoot the darkriders, multishot the darkriders with repeaters bolts unless you got a good shot at the coldones, but you should be able to slow down the cold ones with the harpies enough to give you time on those darkriders for a turn... he doesn't have much immune to psyc, so try to go for turn 1 unit destroyed on those riders and if he places them badly (or gasp he screens with them on a dragon or hydra) you will kill those riders and get some panics going.

seriously the dragon won't do anything, unless he want to eventually lose to flank charges and combat res. the coldones are game winners as once they get going they will plow though units with their hard hittingness and high unit strength, but if they fail to break on the charge they could get stuck for a long time. Hydras can be scary in pairs and very resilient, but enough shooting/magic and you can chip it down.

Neknoh
13-12-2008, 11:52
As dark elves, you will want reaper bolt throwers, two thirds of the shots will hit the dragon, half of those will wound it and cause, on average, two wounds (it is D3, no?)

This means that with 6 turns, you have 12 shots, that's 8 wounds on the dragon, should kill it.

Basically, target the dragon even in close combat and take out the Lord through combat resolution, he relies on the dragon doing the killing for him. Waywatchers might have killingblow, and aim for the dragon, but don't expect too much, I'd rather aim for the coldone knights with the dragon, or perhaps Bow of Loren + Ignore Armoursave Arrows.

Treekin are always good for smashing things up in close combat

As are glade riders

DeathlessDraich
13-12-2008, 14:55
Basically, this guy I know has this incredibly cheesy dark elf army and neither me nor my girlfriend or anyone else for that matter have yet to beat him. :)
Now before anyone says something along the lines that we should tell him that its no fun playing against him and hes cheesy etc. We would really appreciate some advice on how to beat him, if only some advice on how to stay alive long enough :) okay, so here is his army list.

*1 dreadlord on a dragon, we know he has pendant of kaeleth and at least a 2+ armour save. Perhaps he changes it sometimes.

*2 Hydras (they attack together in the middle.)

*15 cold one knights and malus in their squad. probably with some awesome banner.

*5x dark riders
*5x dark riders
*10 repeater xbow men
*a sorceress who carries dispel scrolls

so any advice as to how to beat this army would be greatly appreciated :)
he doesnt have many units, but with that army he doesnt really need them...

I've played against and with the double Hydra several times.

Easy way to slay Hydras - Flamers.
The DE Dragon - Immortal Fury etc Bloodthirster slaying the Dragon and autobreaking the Dreadlord.

There are a few armies will give that combo a hard time.
The army has no Assassins - more dangerous against T3 armies!


I play with woodelves, and my girlfriend plays dark elves, though our armies arent really cheesy. He still goes unbeaten by anyone.

Woodelves - certainly should be able to provide a good fight, provided you're allowed sufficient terrain.
Bait the Cold ones with Dryads and ambush with Wardancers. Since they are 2 ranks deep you should get 7 Wardancers in the flank - a possible 21A with Killing blow or ASF to counter theirs.
Alter Noble, Hail of Doom and Glade Guard shooting should be able to deal with the Dark riders and Xbows and the Sorceress.
Thats enough VP - just avoid the Hydras and Dragon and annoy them with shooting, sacrificing a unit or 2 of Dryads.

Just noticed you allow special characters - ever tried Drycha?
Shooting -

Havock
13-12-2008, 17:49
I've played against and with the double Hydra several times.

Easy way to slay Hydras - Flamers.
The DE Dragon - Immortal Fury etc Bloodthirster slaying the Dragon and autobreaking the Dreadlord.

There are a few armies will give that combo a hard time.
The army has no Assassins - more dangerous against T3 armies!

You play daemons, you have easy solutions for everything :p

Draconian77
13-12-2008, 20:36
Well I'd go with

Lv4(Pegasus)
3x Lv2's(Pegasus)

All lore of Fire. Chew him up with magic and as most of your points are in flyers his Dragon won't be able to crush you...
Definately take the Black Staff, Lifetaker and the darkstar Cloak. Power stones wherever you have points to fill.
Watch him burn...

3x5 Dark Riders
+ some Harpies

4x Bolt Throwers - You should single shot these against Dragons, not multi-shot. Hitting on 2+ with S6 causing D3 wounds. Should take about 6 Shots/5 hits/2.5 wounds x D3 = roughly 6

So two rounds of shooting should kill that Dragon(With just the Bolt Throwers)

If he tries to take out the Bolt throwers with his DR's magic/shoot them down and redirect his knights with your Dark Riders.

I would avoid infantry like the plague against 3 breath weapons.

Elves All The Way
15-12-2008, 08:25
Well your main problem is the hydras and dragon, waywatchers for CoKs and would dryads fears the cold ones? don't tey only fear horses or all cavarly? anyway use treesing with a treeman or wizard to stop hydra, you basically just want to avoid them, dragon, i don't know, i guess you could fight dragon wit dragon and as for everything else just use gladeguard, they can outshoot the crossbowmen and at short range it's str4 which will get rid of their armour save, unless they take shields, and you could always take warhawk riders.

Havock
15-12-2008, 12:24
Since I play tzeentch mortals, I have a very handy way of getting the hydras out: Spamming flickering fire on 1 dice.

The dragon is something I would normally reserve gateway for :p

EvC
15-12-2008, 14:45
Wood Elves- put lots of forests on the table. Not sure how to deal with the Hydras though ;)

The Red Scourge
15-12-2008, 15:10
How about for your girl to hit his dreadlord with a hero with the pendant of unkillyness and what has been proposed elsewhere go with strong magic.

For wood elves I'd anvil the dreadlord with AoN and get some wildriders with a warbanner to provide CR from the rear.

Shoot the hydra hard, and use waywatchers for the CoK along with lo0ts of glade riders to play catch :)