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View Full Version : charging a unit who's front line is already in combat. Flank?



fastcarfreak
12-12-2008, 16:45
when charging a unit who's front rank is completely covered by your troops already in combat. If you have a line of sight to the flank, do you charge the flank, or do you slide models in combat over to fit new unit. The reason I bring this up is that i had a unit in combat with a unit of zombies, but the zombies entire front rank was covered by my troops. My skirmishers had a perfect few of the enemies flank, but a majority of my models were in his units front charge range. For example:

zzzzz
zzzzz
zzzzz
zzzzz
uuuuu s s
s s s s s
s s s s

Briohmar
12-12-2008, 17:24
The skimishers can't charge. They can only charge in the front, and they don't have a direct line to charge.

Lord of Skulls
12-12-2008, 18:39
Agreed. You can only charge the facing you are in, so if there isn't enough room to get any models into combat with that side, you can't charge. You'll have to move the unit so that it is in a flank or rear zone first.

fastcarfreak
12-12-2008, 19:18
it was my understanding that skirmishers dont need a direct line of charge, as long as some models have a direct charge. This is clearly illustrated in the BRB, like when charging a skirmishing unit around an enemy unit into an enemy unit that is behind but in sight....

Harwammer
12-12-2008, 19:20
They don't need a direct line, but that doesn't mean they can ignore charge arcs. If the arc they are in is fully occupied then they simply can't charge.

Lord Inquisitor
12-12-2008, 19:23
I think it's total rubbish that a unit might have line of sight to the enemy, clear and unimpeded path and not be allowed to charge because they're in the enemy's front arc which is already in combat.

It makes no sense.

stripsteak
12-12-2008, 19:45
I think they are fine to get their charge on the front. the enemy would slide over. i know it sounds pretty absurd but the whole game is an abstraction.

on pg 21 under aligning combatants "if it is impractical to align a unit properly because of interposing terrain, other models, or whatever, then it is acceptable to realign the charged unit as well"

the result would end up looking roughly like


zzzzz
zzzzz
zzzzz
zzzzz
zzzzz
uuuuussss
ssss
sss

N810
12-12-2008, 19:54
Perhaps this will help ???
http://warhammer.ca.games-workshop.com/gaming/train_multiple/default.htm
http://warhammer.ca.games-workshop.com/gaming/train_multiple/images/multiple.jpg

Atrahasis
12-12-2008, 20:07
I think they are fine to get their charge on the front. the enemy would slide over. i know it sounds pretty absurd but the whole game is an abstraction.

on pg 21 under aligning combatants "if it is impractical to align a unit properly because of interposing terrain, other models, or whatever, then it is acceptable to realign the charged unit as well"That only applies if the chargers can make legal contact with the unit they are charging, ie they can make contact in the correct arc.

Since they can't, they can't charge.

foehammer888
12-12-2008, 20:20
Something similar came up in a recent game of empire vs. chaos. There was a unit of great swords with 3 total ranks. In its flank, 6in away, was a unit of 4 mengil's manflayers. A short distance behind them was a chaos sorceror on a hill. The player wanted to charge with both the manflayers and the sorceror, but couldn't.

Both units have LOS, and thus can declar charges (as they sorceror is on a hill). However, if he moves the manflayers first, they will occupy the entire side arc of the greatswords. He can't move the sorceror first, as the charge would require him ot move through the manflayer unit.

The skirmishers cant make the charge. Otherwise, flank charges would be easy. As long as you weren't perfectly aligned with an enemy unit straight-on, you would see part of their flank. Then, all you would need to do was first charge their front with some disposable unit that takes up there whole front arc, then charge with the second unit and hit their flank.

It is a prime example of how realism takes a back seat to game mechanics designed to encourage tactics.

Atrahasis
12-12-2008, 20:23
Since both the sorcerer and manflayer's were in the same arc, they would charge simultaneously and split frontage.

Perfectly legal.

stripsteak
12-12-2008, 20:25
That only applies if the chargers can make legal contact with the unit they are charging, ie they can make contact in the correct arc.

Since they can't, they can't charge.

but they can make it by RAW, from skirmisher rules "When the maximum number of models has been brought into base-to-base contact with the side charged (including models fighting corner to corner)".

and from the FAQ on awkward charges "Once the charging unit has touched it's opponent, the combat is committed and it only remains to align the antagonists"

but based on skirmisher reading i'd advise my chart to be


zzzzz
zzzzz
zzzzz
zzzzz
uuuuus
s
s
s


yes it's clipping and while clipping sucks they admit in their faqs it's legal, this would be one of their cases where they offer sittuations such as these be decided in a gentlemanly manner between the participants and if no conclusion can be reached to roll off, thats probably what my group would end up doing.

Harwammer
12-12-2008, 20:56
Do simultaneous charges still exist? I thought charges were resolved in the order declared. Maybe you can simultaneously declare?

stripsteak
12-12-2008, 21:00
pg 23 of the BRB has the rules for multiple chargers. it's pretty much if multiple chargers are charging the same unit they move simultaneously and you split the frontage as best you can between them.

the declarations still happen in order. but if after declarations (including frenzy nunits) you have multiple units charging one enemy they move together.

sulla
13-12-2008, 02:03
I think it's total rubbish that a unit might have line of sight to the enemy, clear and unimpeded path and not be allowed to charge because they're in the enemy's front arc which is already in combat.

It makes no sense.
It does suck and it doesn't make a lot of sense but it is the rule and it does apply equally to both players, so at least it's not unfair.

If it really bugs you, you may want to discuss it with your friends and make a houserule covering these situations.

Condottiere
13-12-2008, 06:22
I'm a little lost here. The skirmishers have at least one model that sees the enemy. He informs his friends and charges. All his colleagues that can trace a path to the enemy within their movement allowance can fight if there's sufficient space, those that can't have to rank up behind them.

Rodman49
13-12-2008, 06:44
Stripsteak's comments here make the most sense. His second (clipping) example would be RaW while the first is the way I would play it.

Condottiere
13-12-2008, 06:58
The rules say that the models must be maximized, if possible, and if the attacker just won CR with the other unit, I interpret that to mean he can adjust the other unit to allow a greater frontage for the skirmishers if:

1. He wishes to

2. It maximizes the number of models in contact (or at least doesn't diminish them).

athamas
13-12-2008, 09:59
what happens if this happens in the second round of combat, and the only bit of the enemy that can be seen is the flank?

[as the front is blocked by your troops and thus cant see through them...]

simularly if that arc is blocked by terrain?

nosferatu1001
13-12-2008, 10:38
The same thing applies - if you cant see the front, you cant charge. Nothing cvhanges because it is the second round.

Harwammer
13-12-2008, 12:16
pg 23 of the BRB has the rules for multiple chargers. it's pretty much if multiple chargers are charging the same unit they move simultaneously and you split the frontage as best you can between them.

the declarations still happen in order. but if after declarations (including frenzy nunits) you have multiple units charging one enemy they move together.

OMG! I don't know how I've not picked up on that rule; I've read the rulebook cover to cover so many times and never managed to integrate it into my understanding of the rules. You've just made my beast herds so much better; thank you and a million kisses!

Whitehorn
13-12-2008, 12:34
I think it's total rubbish that a unit might have line of sight to the enemy, clear and unimpeded path and not be allowed to charge because they're in the enemy's front arc which is already in combat.

It makes no sense.

It does make sense if you actually think about it.

For a unit to flank, your general is going to order them to move around the enemy and then engage them in the side. They're not going to walk behind or abreast your other units and 'lap round' to engage, as that just isn't a flank engagement.

It makes sense because that unit can take a turn to move into a strong position to then perform a flank charge. Yes, it may take another turn, but battles never lasted 5 minutes.

athamas
13-12-2008, 13:39
ok, so in the example attached,


the red block is my unit, the blue the enemy and the grey is rock pillars...


i cant see the flank of the unit, only the front, i cannot fit down the side... but i have a completly un obscured view of the front,

you seem to be telling me i cant charge the unit as i cant fit down its flank...

DeathlessDraich
13-12-2008, 14:42
when charging a unit who's front rank is completely covered by your troops already in combat. If you have a line of sight to the flank, do you charge the flank, or do you slide models in combat over to fit new unit. The reason I bring this up is that i had a unit in combat with a unit of zombies, but the zombies entire front rank was covered by my troops. My skirmishers had a perfect few of the enemies flank, but a majority of my models were in his units front charge range. For example:

zzzzz
zzzzz
zzzzz
zzzzz
uuuuu s s
s s s s s
s s s s


That only applies if the chargers can make legal contact with the unit they are charging, ie they can make contact in the correct arc.

Since they can't, they can't charge.


1) A charge declaration would be valid - LOS

2) The charge will be frontal and successful

- (s) moves to the *left* and one model will be in corner to corner btb contact with (u).

i.e.
.....zzzzz
....suuuuu
....s
....s etc


ok, so in the example attached,


the red block is my unit, the blue the enemy and the grey is rock pillars...


i cant see the flank of the unit, only the front, i cannot fit down the side... but i have a completly un obscured view of the front,

you seem to be telling me i cant charge the unit as i cant fit down its flank...

1) If the blue unit is a skirmisher unit, a successful charge is very probable as there will be space and charge distance.

2) If the blue unit is a ranked up unit (looks it), red's charge declaration is resolved as a failed charge because the red unit cannot 'fit in'.
This is stipulated by the rules and confirmed by the FAQ.

It is possible however for the red unit to completely destroy the blue unit under 1 circumstance.

EvC
13-12-2008, 15:30
That only applies if the chargers can make legal contact with the unit they are charging, ie they can make contact in the correct arc.

Since they can't, they can't charge.

Others raise an interesting point though- the skirmishers could make point with the very corner point of the front arc, thereby making it a legal charge, and thereby forcing the players to make a "convincing battleline", for whatever that's worth...

Necromancy Black
13-12-2008, 22:33
ok, so in the example attached,


the red block is my unit, the blue the enemy and the grey is rock pillars...


i cant see the flank of the unit, only the front, i cannot fit down the side... but i have a completly un obscured view of the front,

you seem to be telling me i cant charge the unit as i cant fit down its flank...

That's exactly what the rules state. You can not flank charge an enemy unit if you are morly in it's front arc. It's one of the more clearly written rules.

So in that case the enemy has rather cleverly protected their unit from being charged. Call it whatever you want, but it's both valid and legal by the rules.

athamas
14-12-2008, 09:35
my issue with said rule is that i cannot see the flank arc...

its just anbother one of those vexing rules...

nosferatu1001
14-12-2008, 10:03
Erm, you can see the flank, you also didnt specify as to whether the columns block line of sight.

In a case where you do not have line of sight to the arc you are in, I thknk you still have to charge the front and would therefore probably fail - if others can confirm this??

athamas
14-12-2008, 11:30
are you refering to my picture?

as in that the line from the led represents their LOS and as such then cannot see any of the flank of the unit?

DeathlessDraich
14-12-2008, 12:18
LOS is required to the unit to declare a charge - any part of the unit irrespective of whether it is the flank zone or frontal zone that can be seen - LOS rules.

athamas
14-12-2008, 12:26
yes i know that :P

the issue is, i can only see the front, i cannot see the flank, if i wheel to charge at the unit, i will make contact with the front, however i am in the flank arc of the unit.. but i cannot see this as the unit is standing next to an impassable object...


also note that enemy unit could charge me if it was their turn,

DeathlessDraich
14-12-2008, 12:52
Substitute - 'insufficient space' for 'cannot see'.:D

If there is insufficient space, the charge fails ( or EITW sometimes) - BRB FAQ.

There are stranger scenarios than this as a result of that rule and FAQ e.g. the long unit vs the wide unit.

The rules determine legality and hence the nature of tactics which may sometimes seem strange.
Many players will place their units blocked in that way by terrain etc as part of a tactical manoeuvre - perfectly alright.

Gazak Blacktoof
14-12-2008, 13:07
Athamas, you say its vexing that you can't charge, I disagree. Its a game and there have to be absolutes, its a bit like complaining that you can't move your knight one space to the left in chess, "but look he's standing right next to that square!".

The rules about flanks in warhammer are there to force people to manouevre. It would be all too easy to get a flank charge if you were scooted to an unobstructed facing when your charge path was blocked. You could use one unit to block a units front arc and then with another unit in the front arc charge the flank.

athamas
14-12-2008, 13:32
true,

it just seems... anoying,...


oh well

Atrahasis
14-12-2008, 14:38
but based on skirmisher reading i'd advise my chart to be


zzzzz
zzzzz
zzzzz
zzzzz
uuuuus
s
s
s
Assuming that "z" and "u" are both on the same size base, and the "U" unit being wider is a quirk of the font and not deliberate, then yes that's legal.