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Malice&Mizery
13-12-2008, 00:44
Now I couldn't find a Dark Elves Tactica so please delete this if there is one out there hidden away in the dark corner like any self respecting true Dark Elf should be doing :p

I thought we could kick one off but discussing the new army book and common/deadly/scheming/sneeky tactics you all use with this wonderful army of ours.

Then we could brake down each individual unit and discuss the strengths and weknessess of such units.

Ready... go! :D

backslide
13-12-2008, 02:23
agreed, there does not seem to be one on here!

Lord Dan
13-12-2008, 04:33
Alright, I don't use too many sneaky tricks (at least nothing I think is sneaky) so I'll just kick us off with the first unit in the core section. Feel free to add or contest:

Warriors
One point more than an empire swordsman and gains hatred, a point of initiative, a point of Ld, a point of movement, has the option to use a spear, and has all of the same benefits. Many players unfairly compare these guys to units like Black Guard, and probably think: "Why not just spend points on more Black Guard". Pitting statlines of a model like a warrior against a model that is more than twice it's upgraded points cost is not only inefficient (and, again, unfair ;)), it fails to take into account things like the all-important role assignment.

While warriors would have a hard time standing up to the sheer killing power of a point-for-point unit of black guard, this is not where they are best suited. Larger units of warriors (best around 20-25) make great anvils, and are easily capable of holding their own in combat for a turn or two (with your general's Ld) while you align your heavy hitters. Likewise, they are a cheap way of adding the full 5 CR to a combat where your more elite units (BG, Executioners, even Corsairs) would be too expensive to upgrade in this way. Smaller units (10 or so) are perfect for taking objectives and holding table quarters, running flanks to deter fast cav (no general in their right mind is going to charge T3 fast cav with a 6+ save into a unit of 10 spearmen with hatred), protecting war machines, and threatening the flanks enemy formations with support from your larger blocks. Your more elite units would have trouble making up their points when performing these types of roles, as a 10-man unit of Executioners is far harder to throw away in a bait move or sit on a table corner to hold the quarter than a 70 point unit of warriors.

Ironically, the general underestimation of warriors comes from a equally general overestimation. Time and time again players throw warriors in the wrong combats, expecting them to work the same way as their more "killy" units, only to see them fail miserably and lose all respect for them. When playing with them, make sure you keep their strengths (and, more importantly, their weaknesses) in mind at all times, and keep them working in the roles they are best at.

Hainzy
13-12-2008, 04:58
Hi everybody!
Ah, the humble Dark Elf Warrior.
Now that they are so cheap I don't think I've played many games (I usually play 2250) in which I haven't fielded at least 2 unit's of 20. They can actually be quite a tar pit at times and make the perfect unit for a chariot to counter charge with!
The odd Assassin also makes you're oppoonent a little more wary of a stock standard warrior unit!
Oh, by the way, did I say that there CHEAP! CHEAP! CHEAP!
Absolutley love em!

PARTYCHICORITA
13-12-2008, 05:08
I agree with you, warriors are a great unit and people usually understimate them after overstimating them. Personally I use warriors on several ways:

-Units of 20 warriors with command and shields are decent anvils, they can take infantry charges and hold their ground, they are also the best units to put casters in.
-Units of 20 warriors with command and no shields are IMO even better. Thing with this units is warriors usually don't see combat since DE have faster/more destructive units to disrupt the enemy line and deliver the killing blows. Cheap blocks of shieldless warriors can provide protection since a unit with good static CR can't be given for granted by the enemy so if use right can put a lot of pressure on the opposing army. The shields aren't really miss since most shooting kills the warriors anyway and usually they don't get a lot of it since the DE army fields more dangerous threads.
-Units of 10 warriors with shields are great flankers, cheaper than corsairs and better armoured (hand weapon+shield) and core, which is and advantage over executioners.
-Units of 10 warriors with no shields are great decoys and screen and can even be use to put pressure on enemy support units.

Also IMO warriors should never take magical banners or be joined by combat characters. Most of their uses are a consecuence of their cheapness and putting a character or magical items on them is completely against that idea. Warriors shouldn't fight anyway and are better of fleeing from most charges to return to the fray later.

Lord Dan
13-12-2008, 05:29
Most of their uses are a consecuence of their cheapness

QFT. This is one of their best assets! :)

Nicha11
13-12-2008, 06:23
I'll do Black Guard then:

Black Guard!

What has ws 4 I5 and LD8? I dunno but a Black Guard would kick it's ass.
These boys are your wheat threshers, 11 strength 4 attacks a turn with very high Weapon skill and Initiative Oh did I mention they always re-roll to hit?

Worried about them running away? Their Leadership 9 stubborn will fix that.

Worried about them being struck first? ASF banner has the problem solved.

Is there anything these boys can't do? Oh yah survive a round of shooting
5+ AS and toughness 3 means that handgunners and the like will sythe them down! Solution? Screen them with Harpies.

For uber hurtiness go 7 wide with ASF banner and Champion with the Crimson Death.

Elves All The Way
13-12-2008, 07:18
Hi
Well BG are deadly and pretty much unmovable, warriors are cheap and great at multi-tasking, but IMO next to the hydra, Cold One Knights are the best things DE have, and if you throw in the BSB with the hydra banner they could hold against some of the best calvary in the game.
CoKs, lets see, an original str4 which means a smashing str6 on the charge, fear and eternal hatred for both mount and rider these guys can smash through almost anything point for point, their only downside is stpidity but LD9 is there to remedy, a unit of five or six used to flank are simply devastating, theres a reason the abrieved name for them is CoKs
Even more deadly is with the hydra banner on the charge in an average unit of five, that'll be 13 str6 attks followed by 10 str4 hatred attacks thanks :P

backslide
13-12-2008, 07:38
have to admit have yet to use my De but ye humble chariot looks a steal at 100 points

is now as hard to kill as a chaos chariot, cause fear and hate.. S5 on the crew, S4 mounts, ok they are stupid :(

happy_doctor
13-12-2008, 11:47
In fact, I found a 6th edition tactica thread several pages long. I'm posting it for further reference.
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5894&highlight=Dark+tactica

Now, as for the tactica itself.. Since it's the beginning, I have a suggestion to make:

Instead of turning this into an army list debate (which is helpful once in a while, but tends to flood the thread with irrelevant posts), I propose we take a more organized route, analyzing one subject at a time.
When we feel that the subject in question has been covered, we move on to the next one and so on and so forth.

A rushed plan could look like this:

LORD CHOICES
-Dreadlord
-Supreme Sorceress
-Comparison between the two
-Monstrous mounts

HERO CHOICES
-Master, BsB
-Death Hag
-Cauldron of Blood
-Sorceress
-Assassin
-Monstrous mounts

CORE
-Spearmen
-Corsairs
-Crossbowmen
-Dark Riders
-Harpies
+optimum core choices

SPECIAL
-Black Guard
-Executioners
-Witch Elves
-Shades
-Cold One Knights
-Cold One Chariot

RARE
War Hydra
Bolt Throwers

MAGIC ITEMS
-Common Builds
-Discussion on less used items

ARMY BUILDING TIPS
-Tips on how to best use the knowledge accumulated in the tactica thread in order to produce a coherent and solid battle force
-Common builds
-Themed armies


So, if you people agree, I suggest we start by discussing the Dreadlord

Malice&Mizery
13-12-2008, 14:32
happy_doctor that's a great idea :D

I'm not very experienced with Warhammer enough to contirbute properly but there seems to be a lot of critisism on the Dreadlord with the Pendant of Khaeleth if anyone has any experience with that?

Draconian77
13-12-2008, 15:21
In fact, I found a 6th edition tactica thread several pages long. I'm posting it for further reference.
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5894&highlight=Dark+tactica

Now, as for the tactica itself.. Since it's the beginning, I have a suggestion to make:

Instead of turning this into an army list debate (which is helpful once in a while, but tends to flood the thread with irrelevant posts), I propose we take a more organized route, analyzing one subject at a time.
When we feel that the subject in question has been covered, we move on to the next one and so on and so forth.

A rushed plan could look like this:

LORD CHOICES
-Dreadlord
-Supreme Sorceress
-Comparison between the two
-Monstrous mounts

HERO CHOICES
-Master, BsB
-Death Hag
-Cauldron of Blood
-Sorceress
-Assassin
-Monstrous mounts

CORE
-Spearmen
-Corsairs
-Crossbowmen
-Dark Riders
-Harpies
+optimum core choices

SPECIAL
-Black Guard
-Executioners
-Witch Elves
-Shades
-Cold One Knights
-Cold One Chariot

RARE
War Hydra
Bolt Throwers

MAGIC ITEMS
-Common Builds
-Discussion on less used items

ARMY BUILDING TIPS
-Tips on how to best use the knowledge accumulated in the tactica thread in order to produce a coherent and solid battle force
-Common builds
-Themed armies


So, if you people agree, I suggest we start by discussing the Dreadlord

Ok, I'm going to go through the basics, I'll put them all into one post, but I'm going to be doing it a bit at a time. If you have something to contribute post it and if I think it is genuinely a good idea I'll add it. I don't want to DP so can someone post now? :D

Malice&Mizery
13-12-2008, 15:30
Ok, I'm going to go through the basics, I'll put them all into one post, but I'm going to be doing it a bit at a time. If you have something to contribute post it and if I think it is genuinely a good idea I'll add it. I don't want to DP so can someone post now? :D

I guess I'll post for you :p

Draconian77
13-12-2008, 16:02
Many thanks!

DISCLAIMER: The views represented are solely my own(unless otherwise noted) and are meant to be taken as such. No insult should be taken and no insult is inferred. This will deal with the Druchii book from a semi-competitive to competitive viewpoint and may include large amounts of cynicysm.

LORD CHOICES

-Dreadlord: The Dreadlord is your standard top tier Elf Hero in terms of fighting stats. Like any fighting hero he adds an element of ACR(Active Combat Resolution) to any unit he joins. The Dreadlord can do this although really his main role seems to be protecting any unit he joins through some of his magic item choices. Ld 10 is no joke with so many armies these days that cause fear, and especially considering your units like CoK and Chariots who require such Ld to effectively make their crucial charges. Like other elven lords this one suffers from T3 syndrome, which is easily remedied by the many options for ward saves, regeneration, and armor in the magic item section.
(Lord Dan)

-Supreme Sorceress: Your standard top tier Elf caster. She has a nice choice or Lores(Dark, Death, Fire, Shadow or Metal) and has a free spell to boot! Now many DE players noticed that this spell was worswe than the "Boon of Tzeentch" and required 1 more to cast(Meaning that realistically you should chuck 2 dice at it rather than 1) but having it in addition to other spells is worth these penalties. So far I have never taken the S4 hits from unused Power Dice! She can cast with unlimited dice which is a rather pathethic bonus for a Lv4 mage.

Monstours Mounts: Dragons and Manticores.

-Manticores: If memory serves these are 10pts more expensive than they use to be and much better. Killing Blow is nice as it gives you some chance of negating 1+ saves or tearing characters apart. The fact that it benefits from Hatred is a nice buff. Quite debatable is its other rule, its chance to Frenzy itself and its rider. Making a 350pt+ model unpredictable is questionable but at least its Frenzy and not Stupidity! It may end up charging something from the front rather than the flank/rear but a Dreadlord with even a humble lance could break most infantry with a frontal charge if mounted on a Manticore...

The Manticores biggest weakness remains his vulrenability to magic missiles/shooting or any form. His Large target status combined with a lack of armour means even the most humble of shooting units can kill it. I am always hoping that the shots get allocated onto my hero/lord as frankly they won't wound him and will critically injure my Manticore!

-Dragons: What can I say that hasn't already been said? Dragons are powerhouses. They have very few weaknesses(Cannons+Bolt Throwers) and will crush any unit with ease if they get a flank or rear charge. Whilst getting into position you can breathe on units to further reduce ranks bonuses and cause panic/disruption(Noxious Breath) I must say that the addition of Hatred makes "fluffing" it much less likely making the Dragon a very attractive choice for a DE player.

It must be said at this time that not all players view Dragons as fair so its best to consult your opponent beforehand if your having a friendly game.
Bringing a Dragon to a pick up game might seem a little OTT and bringing a Dragon to a competitive event is the norm...Whats that? 5 paragraphs down and already a sense of cynicism.

The Dragon does use up a Hero choice but for its added destructive power and survivability I would almost always pay the extra 120pts for a Dragon over a manticore.


HEROES

-Master: Your standard Hero level Elf fighter. Masters are quite cheap and quite hitty for their points. As with the Dreadlord their main purpose is to add ACR to units that they join...Or is it? Certainly you can build Masters this way but to my mind masters excell in 2 roles.
Hunters and Anvils.

The Anvil Master carries your BSB and bolster one unit with additional ACR and SCR whilst providing Ld benefits to all nearby units. The ability to take a BSB on top of a shield or two handed weapon is exceptional and makes it a much more attractive choice than it was last edition. There are some very simple builds that add a lot to any army, but of course that will be discussed later.

Hunters are Masters mounted on flying mounts. Manticores(Taking up an additional Hero slot) or Dark Pegasii. Personally I prefer Dark Pegasii myself, used in character assassinations, war machine/missile troop hunting or lone mage hunting. I will discuss my favourite builds with this type of character later, in the "Optimum Builds" section that will probably be at the end.

-Death Hag: A new addition to the DE family of heroes I have to say I was slightly underwhelmed after reading through her rules. No armour combined with no option for any real armour means that she doesn't really protect your units as well as a master does.(because allocating attacks against her is actually a benefit rather than a hindrance) Following on from this train of thought she doesn't seem to make a great BSB. As we all know the BSB is worth extra VP's and can be worth even more in some scenarios so you really don't want it on a T3 no save model. There are some good builds in terms of offensive power but its certainly more of a gamble than a Master is. I will discuss her few roles later on.

-Cauldren of Blood: Of course one thing that the Hag does bring with her is the option to include the Cauldren of Blood. I'm going to be frank with you, this is a terible unit. Now, I know I'm going to stir up a lot of trouble with a statement like that but I'm not going lie just to appease everyone. Ok, it can boost one unit a turn. Most commonly this seems to add KB or Ward saves to units. I rarely see extra attacks being chosen. Now for the 200+ points you pay for the Cauldren you get 1 special rule per turn. Thats just far too little benefit when you could spend those points on something like Bolt Throwers. Add to this the fact that the Death Hag has to join the unit and it begins to look really unattractive(To me anyway) You lose the ACR that she could generate for a unit. I tend to think about it this way:

Option A: have the Cauldren and make a unit have a slightly increased chance of winning any combat its in.
Option B: have a Master/Death Hag join a unit and have a very good chance of winning any combat the unit is in.
Ooption C: Spend the points on shooting(Hydra, Reapers, Crossbowmen) and reduce the enemies numbers/ranks from afar, increasing the chances your units have in combat.

What makes me choose options B and C every time is that they are flexible, whereas the Cauldren is very one dimeniosnal. At the end of the day its not as bad as I'm making it sound but it really should be reserved for themed armies or larger point games in my opinion.

-Sorceress: I am very iffy on DE Sorceresses at the moment. You have great Lores to choose from and a free spell but at the same time very few decent Arcane or Enchanted items. You have to realisitically throw 2 dice at the power of Darkness spell and if that gets dispelled you have very little PD to speak off. To add to these woes a DE Sorceress is expensive, approaching 190pts with 50pts of magic items and Lv2.
Something which is nice to see is that they now have the option to ride Dark Pehasii, I have seen some very nasty armies with triplets/quartets of these things. In my opinion(This is going to be said a lot!) Druchii magic is best at 6 Lv's+ , anything less and your wasting points for little benefit. Thankfully the new DE book does allow you top play without magic if you so wish. On a final note they are horrible Scroll Caddies, with Hatred and a base cost of 100pts this just isn't really a role their suited for although with todays metagame it won't stop this build from being seen on the tabletops!

-Assassins: Not technically a Hero choice but this is a more fitting description of this model. I will openly declare here and now that I love Assassins. Nothing is more fun than saying "Got yeah!" when you reveal a hidden Assassin. The Assassins roles are simple and diverse, from warmachine hunting to character assassination(Duh...) to just generating ACR he excells in his role. ASF and I10 basically ensures that he strikes first(Avoid the Daemonic gift "Noxious Vapours"), Hatred ensures that he doesn't fluff his attacks as often as he use to and 75pts means that he can build some nasty combos. Now, he is not cheap nor is he infallable. If he fluffs(And it can happen) he will probably die.
He is also quite expensive and eats into your army quite a lot. The Assassin is a finesse unit, used well he can win you games, used poorly he is a waste of points.

Monstrous Mounts: Manticore.

Now as we all know the Beastmaster entry is gone(Good riddance...) and now Masters can ride Manticores! They are much better than Beastmasters ever were although they still take up an addional Hero slot(as they should, upon first reading my book I missed that rule and began "tut tuting" GW immediately...I have since mentally apologised) I feel that a Dreadlord on a Manticore is a a tad better(6 possible Lvs + best fighty character on a monster as opposed to 6 possible Lvs with larger spell and item allocations but with a mediocre fighter on a monster) but I wouldn't say that either build is inherently better than the other. Overall its a nice option which will be used but not as commonly as some Druchii haters would make you believe...


CORE

Ok, I'm going to rough it now and come back to this later.

-Dark Elf Warriors: Superb core if I do say so myself. Okay, they aren't ItP or heavily armoured, in fact they don't even hit that hard. But by god are they cheap! Cheap models, cheap command, cheap upgrade option and the option to take a magic standard(Warbanner) to boot! Can be used as bait, screens, anvils, etc. I'll go into more detail later.

-Dark Elf Crossbowmen(Or Rxbmen): Quite dissapointing really. Have very few uses. Against T4 models damage is minor and against targets with decent armour damage is minor. Their best targets are probably T3 infantry or T3 cavalry without 1+ saves. One unit never hurts, two units might have their uses but any more than that and I think your spending points on something that the DE army isn't really set up to do.
With Shields they might hold off light cavalry or weak skirmishers but really, considering thats what their shooting is good against I don't see the need. Personally I was really hoping that they would have the option of multi-shot and be armed with regular crossbows.

-Corsairs: I find that these guys are hindered by truly poor design. First of all they are too expensive. This isn't really debatable in my eyes, they just aren't worth 10ppm. They don't have the option for Shield which would have made them a tougher anvil with an added perk if they won(Slavers rule), they have to give up an A to get a very short ranged and weak shooting attack. Only the reaver can have a pair of handbows(If they entire unit could I could have seen them in 10 wide flanking units) Add to this the average Warrior profile(IMO they needed Ws5 and a few other things) and they jsut don't "cut the mustard" as they say. Of course this is all opinion, not fact. Actually, that applies to everything I'm saying about anything...so no hate mail please! Unless its about something else... :)

-Dark Riders: Apparently the best fast cavalry unit in the game... I don't really think so but they are good units without a doubt. I have to say that the RxB option looks like an indulgence, I see little tactical use for it. You will be moving with it so at least -2 to hit(Moving+2x shot) meaning you will average 3-4 S3 hits a turn. Meh... Keep cheap baiting/redirecting/war machine hunting models cheap i say!

Harpies: Better statline than they use to have(Don't believe me? I5 over I4) combined with a 2ppm drop and the "warhound" rule makes these an auto-in in most DE lists. One unit will never hurt. From hunting war machines to march blocking to running down broken units nothing quite excels at it than a 55pt unit of flyers. Their one weakness is their horrible Ld so keep them screened, close to the general, out of line of sight or away from unit likely to cause panic tests on turn 1. You can also use them as a missile screen.

SPECIAL

-Witch Elves: Hmm... I'm not a fan of Frenzied troops. I'm not a fan of lightly armoured troops. I guess I'm not a fan of Witch Elves. A 25pt magic standard seems odd, being an elite unit 50 is the norm IIRC. Everytime I look at them I think to myself "Blackguard can do anything they can do and more!" Now, Blackguard cost more but its a marginal cost increase for a much better unit. Witch Elves are better than Black Guard against certain foes but are much worse against many others, and they can't take a charge from most "hitty" units.

-Executioners: The real losers of the special section. They aren't ItP, the have meagre hitting power, they aren't even cheap! I see no reason to ever take Executioners in a DE army. This may sound a tad harsh but they just don't have any role that they excel in or that Black Guard couldn't do better...

-Black Guard: Black Guard are now exactly as they should be. Expensive but not ridiculuous, decent offensive power but not game breaking and finally the ItP that they needed to make Stubborn worthwhile. They have major weaknesses however, shooting will maul them as will magic missiles. Units with mutiple S5 attacks and good T or armour will make them evaporate and they are still infantry, they can't be everywhere at once. They are the only infantry in the DE list with access to a 50pts magic standard which is truly odd. Its like the designers set out to make BG better than the others, which is fair enough being the bodyguard of the Witch King and all that, but Witch Elves and especially Executioners are so "meh" that the BG are an obvious choice for any competitive player. This is a shame as the Executioner models are lovely.

-Shades: I have little experience with these guys. The fullfil many roles that Harpies do but cost much more. They still have some token shooting(Dissapointing, was hoping for a special rule or something to make them elite) but aside from this they are basic skirmishers. 1 unit won't hurt but the DE special choices can get crowded because:

-Cold One Chariots: No longer a 2 for 1 special choice(Good, chariot spam is boring...) but much better. Increased Ld, increased charioteer ws and S, hatred on the charioteers and mounts, increased armour and more tokn shooting for only 5pts more! Actually its really 7pts less as the RxB and Spears are now included in its base cost. Great units to be honest, I normally take 1-2 in a regular point game.


-Cold One Knights: I despise CoK's. I honestly think that they are some of the worst cavalry in the game ppm. Okay, heavy hitting. But isn't nearly all heavy cavalry heavy hitting? Isn't that one of the defining features of heavy cavalry? The thing is, CoK's are just too frail for my liking. A single round of handgunners shooting at them can cripple them, they actually fear things like Fireball! Add to this the chance of Stupidity and I would much rather have Chariots thank you very much... I know some Druchii players love them(and the models are superb, raptor revival!) but I think that they are a real dissapointment. I would have loved a banner to migitate stupidity or a 1+ save somehow or even T4 to take into account the Cold Ones... Oh well. I would classify taking them as gambling for all the reasons mentioned above. They may pay off, they may not.

RARE

-Reaper Bolt Throwers: You know, for years I have considered these overpriced(In my eyes they should cost about 80pts) but I still take them every now and then. They give a DE army an "out" as far as I can see. If something is really threatening you can fire these at it and they should put a dent in it. Large targets fear them, cavalry fear them and infantry fear them. But really the damage the do to any of these targets is always greater in your opponents head than in reality. So use them with this in mind, they may wipe out a unit or kill that Dragon after only 2 shots but its much better to make your opponent believe that this will happen. A psychological artillery piece then. Hmm, perhaps I didn't desribe them as well as I could have... Their only real weaknesses are that A)They are expensive and B)Only two t3 crew. You could lose this 100pt kit to a "D6 S4" magic missile or even token shooting.

-Hydra: Ok, we come to a point of contention within the gaming community. Non DE players believe the Hydra to be too powerful whereas DE payers seem to like that the thing finally has a purpose... It received numerous buffs and became cheaper. Now to my mind it didn't need to become cheaper but at the same time it does have its weaknesses(As does nearly any model) For example basically all armies have access to thr Lore of Fire which can really put a krimp in your Hydras day. Secondly despite its massive 13 attacks it still probably won't beat that many units head on. Thankfully, thats not what its meant to do! Two things come to mind when you think of the new Hydra, "Skirmisher" and "Flamethrower" Now, combine these two things into "Skirmishing Flamthrower" and you pretty much get how its meant to play. My ones normamly run around for a few turn incinerating infantry and causing massive successive waves of Terror, Fear and Panic until eventually they charge into the tattered remnants of my opponents army... I wish it was that easy! Hydras are good, excellent in fact. But they need support. You have to break your opponents battleline apart to get the most of them and some matchups(skirmisher heavy, gun-lines, cavalry lists) can make the Hydras impact much less influential. Overall most Druchii players are likely to have 1 of these in their lists and 2 is not uncommon at all, but is frowned upon where I play!

Lord Dan
13-12-2008, 16:12
I have just a few things to add to what Draconian said, so I suppose I'll tag my thoughts on the end of his:

LORD CHOICES

-Dreadlord: The Dreadlord is your standard top tier Elf Hero in terms of fighting stats. Like any fighting hero he adds an element of ACR(Active Combat Resolution) to any unit he joins. The Dreadlord can do this although really his main role seems to be protecting any unit he joins through some of his magic item choices. Ld 10 is no joke with so many armies these days that cause fear, and especially considering your units like CoK and Chariots who require such Ld to effectively make their crucial charges. Like other elven lords this one suffers from T3 syndrome, which is easily remedied by the many options for ward saves, regeneration, and armor in the magic item section.

-Supreme Sorceress: Your standard top tier Elf caster. She has a nice choice or Lores(Dark, Death, Fire, Shadow or Metal) and has a free spell to boot! Now many DE players noticed that this spell was worswe than the "Boon of Tzeentch" and required 1 more to cast(Meaning that realistically you should chuck 2 dice at it rather than 1) but having it in addition to other spells is worth these penalties. So far I have never taken the S4 hits from unused Power Dice! She can cast with unlimited dice which is a rather pathethic bonus for a Lv4 mage. With a potential for 8 PD in one turn at her disopsal (4 for her Lv 4, 2 from the army pool, a potential 3 from the PoD spell, and then assuming you used 1 to cast it) she can be a mobile firing platform.

Monstours Mounts: Dragons and Manticores.

-Manticores: If memory serves these are 10pts more expensive than they use to be and much better. Killing Blow is nice as it gives you some chance of negating 1+ saves or tearing characters apart. The fact that it benefits from Hatred is a nice buff. Quite debatable is its other rule, its chance to Frenzy itself and its rider. Making a 350pt+ model unpredictable is questionable but at least its Frenzy and not Stupidity! It may end up charging something from the front rather than the flank/rear but a Dreadlord with even a humble lance could break most infantry with a frontal charge if mounted on a Manticore...

The Manticores biggest weakness remains his vulrenability to magic missiles/shooting or any form. His Large target status combined with a lack of armour means even the most humble of shooting units can kill it. I am always hoping that the shots get allocated onto my hero/lord as frankly they won't wound him and will critically injure my Manticore!

-Dragons: What can I say that hasn't already been said? Dragons are powerhouses. They have very few weaknesses(Cannons+Bolt Throwers) and will crush any unit with ease if they get a flank or rear charge. Whilst getting into position you can breathe on units to further reduce ranks bonuses and cause panic/disruption(Noxious Breath) I must say that the addition of Hatred makes "fluffing" it much less likely making the Dragon a very attractive choice for a DE player.

It must be said at this time that not all players view Dragons as fair so its best to consult your opponent beforehand if your having a friendly game.
Bringing a Dragon to a pick up game might seem a little OTT and bringing a Dragon to a competitive event is the norm...Whats that? 5 paragraphs down and already a sense of cynicism.

The Dragon does use up a Hero choice but for its added destructive power and survivability I would almost always pay the extra 120pts for a Dragon over a manticore.

Malice&Mizery
13-12-2008, 16:14
Brilliant posts there, Lord Dan and Draconian :D

Thankyou for contributing and keep it coming :p

Lord Dan
13-12-2008, 16:20
I'm sure it's been mentioned, but things seem to be registering slower and slower these days.

Are we going to be compiling this into one master list?

Malice&Mizery
13-12-2008, 16:45
Yes, that is the plan, Lord Dan :)

Once we have a sufficient amount of tactics I'll take all the good bits and put it all together in correct order.

PARTYCHICORITA
13-12-2008, 17:10
I wanna say a few thing about DE character choices:

-Dreadlord: This is a great character, he's cheap and hatred pretty much guarantees he adds to ACR. Also the incredible defensive DE items from armor and talisman sections mean their pretty much inmune to T3 Syndrome the other elven armies suffer. And as it has been said Ld10 is a great boost to any army.

-High sorceress: They are way to expensive for what they offer but have a nice bonus in the fact that they can mount black dragons. Pendant of Khaleth means the sorceress is almost unkillable and focus familiar that she can still cast once the dragon is in cc.

-Sorceress: This is another choice that can do a lot of damage. The beauty of PoD spell is that, if cast with 2 dice the enemy HAS TO dispel it using 2+ dice or he's gonna get overwhelmed with magic. Worst case scenario, you get your 2 dice back. So PoD can easly drain enemy dispel dice and scroll and leave your oponent vulnerable and confuse on how to deal with your magic phase. Also sorceress do have some very nice items to chose from not only from the arcane section but also from the others, personally lifetaker is a must for one of my casters in all my lists.

Now, on the cauldron of blood. I think it's great but you need to make your army take advantage of it, you also need to keep in mind that unlike the 6th edition version this time the cauldron can move (not march, but use his Mv5). If the death hag is the general you can save some points and still add a decent Ld9 to your infantry units, if she's the BSB your khainaite units can reroll their Ld8 stubborn results and your BG becomes almost unbreakable.
Finally on the blessings; 5+ ward is usefull vs armies with lots of shooting and KB is nice for units like BG or the war hydra who usually struggle vs armor targets but most of the time +1A is the way to for me. CoK and Executioners go nuts with the +1A bonus and hatred and they can charge most units from the front and hope to break them. Even lighter units like corsairs, WE or BG can pack a lot more punch with the extra attack since hatred dramatically increases DE efficiency in combat.

Draconian77
13-12-2008, 18:08
I do apologise for the double post but apparently there is a 20000 character limit. :angel: Ok, I'll put the rest into this post.

MAGIC ITEMS:

Okay, first of all the common builds for several models.

Notice: I have left out the mudane equipment, assume that they have the appropriate choices.

Balck Guard: Banner of Hag Graef.

~ At this point in time I have yet to see a unit of Bg without this banner. This is down to 2 factors as far as I can see it. It migitates some of the BG's weaknesses and the Druchii players have access to some truly dreadful magic banners...

Dreadlord: Pendant of Khaeleth, Armour of Eternal Servitude and Crimson Death/Great Weapon. Normally in a unit of Black guard with the Banner of Hag Graef.

~This set up came about because someone thought "2+ Ward+Regen+S6 = The brokenzzzzzz(ad infinatum)"
I think this set up is pointless, the pendant combined with a Dreadlords high armour save is quite enough, squandering the Regen on him aswell is just careless and inflexible in my eyes. No one will want to figh the Dreadlord anyway, regardless of whether or not he has the Regen.

Dreadlord: Hydra Blade, Potion of Strength, Pendant of Khaeleth. (Normally in a unit of BG with the ASF banner...)

~A one hit wonder that can cripple a unit of Chaos Knights in the blink of an eye. After he has used the Potion he really doesn't generate that much ACR(S4 is pretty bad) but how often does a unit of infantry see battle against a tough foe in any given game? I bet your thinking about once aswell...

Dreadlord: Armour of Eternal Servitude, Ring of Hotek, Crimson Death.

~Protects against magic, decent protection, decent offense. A standard build in lists that want the Ring in their centre lines and don't want to risk putting it on a unit champion.

Master, BSB, Pendant of Khaeleth, Enchanted Shield.

~What does this get you? A BsB with a 1+ armour save and noramlly a 2+ ward save. Can you say "rock?" By accepting/issuing challenges he can absorb your enemies ACR and keep your SCR(aka: your ranks!) around longer.

Master, BSB, Pearl of Infinate Bleakness + Armour of Darkness, Great Weapon.

~Set up two is more concerned with psychological threats and is a great addition againt Vampires or Daemons(or heaven forbid, Ogres...) However he still boasts a tasty 1+ save and 3 S6 attacks.

Master, BSB, Hydra Banner.

~Instructions "Put inside a unit of CoK's, point at an enemy, press the "on" button and watch them go."

Some more extravagant builds:

Master, Dark Pegasus, Ring of Hotek, Deathpiercer.

~ Hunts warmachines or chariots/cavalry and while he's at it hinders your opponents magic phase. Requires a little more skill than simply sticking the (One)Ring in the centre of your army but it can allow you to play magic heavy even with the (One)Ring in your list...Scary...

Master, Dark Pegasus, Black Dragon Egg.

~ Your standard flying hero with the ability to spit on an enemy unit once per game. very useful against certain armies but not as useful overall as:

Master, Dark Pegasus, Lifetaker.

~Just hope your opponent brings a lone Wizard...


Assassin, Touch of Death, Rune of Khaine, Black Lotus.

~Cavalry killer or character killer. Very good at what he does.

Assassin, Manbane, Rending Stars, Cloak of Twilight.

~A jack of all trades that can insta' kill chariots due to an oversight...How nice.


Supreme Sorceress, Pendant, Black Staff, Pegasus.
Supreme Sorceress, Sacrificial Dagger, Power Stonex3.

~ The first build is a poor mans Morathi, the second build isn't made up, I have seen people run it. Personally I'm not a fan but hey, what do I know?

Sorceress: Darkstar Cloak, Dispel Scroll/Power Stone.
Sorceress: Sacrificial Dagger, Dispel Scroll/Power Stone.
Sorceress: Lifetaker, Tomb of Furion/Power Stone.
Sorceress: Focus Familiar, Dispel Scroll/Power Stone.

~All of these are very basic but this is because the Druchii magic item list is truly dire. There is no Talisman or Enchanted item that you can really combine with an Arcane item for a truly "decent" magic user.

Ok, that enough of that. I would much rather take you through the magic items available to the aspiring Druchii player and do the dirty on each.

Enchanted Items:

Deathmask: There is already a lot of Terror and Fear being generated by a DE army(Hydra, Manticore, Dragon, CoK's, CoC's) so I really do see this as a sub-par choice. Its useful on Morathii to prevent her having to take such tests.

The Hydras Teeth: Oh my... I'll put this simply. Always take Lifetaker over this. Even its ability to allocate 2 attacks each turn doesn't make this worth 40pts. At 15-20pts it might have been useful.

Crystal of Midnight: No, just no. If you could pick the spell it might be useful or if it was bound level 3 and not one use only but as it is it's pointless. Never take it.

Black Dragon Egg: Can be useful but not overly so. I have had mixed results with this so basically in a tournament I wouldn't but in a firnedly game I might. The T6 thing barely makes a difference, its the weapon you want. I would have much rather a continuous breath weapon but at S3 instead of S4.

Potion of Strength: I want to get this off my chest, I don't like "one use only" items. I feel that paying points for something that might not help you is too risky for an army like Dark Elves. However there is a decent combo for this item.

Gem of Nighmares: No. Okay, Cold Ones, large monsters, Black guard and anyhing with Frenzy or the Pearl are ItP in a Druchii army. If you want to auto break something that badly there are easier ways. Most armies are set up to resist psychology anyway with the advent of vampires and Daemons.

The Guiding Eye: As far as I know the re-rolls are not permanent, in this case this is utter rubbish. Nothing else can really be said about this item. If I'm getting this wrong please inform me.

MAGIC WEAPONS

Executioners Axe: Bad item. You can't combo it with any magical protection, you can't be mounted(making it harder to swing the damn thing) and it requires two hands to use. Ugh... maybe with the ASF banner but I wouldn't.

Sword of Ruin: Not worth 50pts on S4 models, simple as that.

Web of Shadows: It was a pointless item last edition and its become more pointless tha it was. "More pointless..." Yeah, thats how bad this is. Never take it.

Chillblade: Hmm... I'm not a fan, the Empire have a similar item called the hammer of Judgement(IIRC) which doesn't ahve the "No attack if wounded clause" but allows you to take you "to wound" rolls and only costs half as much. Never take it, if it was 20-25pts maybe. But its not.

Heartseeker: Pointless on a S4 character, especially with Hatred. S4 with re-rolls is only good against light infantry. You do not need to kit up your heroes to kill light infantry, the rest of your army will do that quite well.

Hydra Blade: Not so good on a S4 character but it has combo value. I don't think its anything to write home about.

Caledors Bane: Pointless. Never taken, never will be. Of note: it makes a Pegasus mounted noble a great chariot killer.
Also of note: thats all it makes him. There are better options.

Dagger of Hotek: Meh... S4 = not enough to make ASF worth it.

Lifetaker: I like this item. Better tha it used to be and I liked it back then too. Still good to use vs artillery, skirmishers or lone characters.

Crimson Death: Popular choice as it allows your Hero/Lord to wound things whilst mostly negating their save. Not as great as everyone thinks it is but is has very little competition. Can be taken on unit champions.

Deathpiercer: I like this item. KB is great on DE models because they hit a lot more, the lance rule makes it very effective on Pegasus mounted Master/Dreadlords.

Whip of Agony: I'm undecided on this. I haven't taken it but it look ok. I think the humble Great Weapon/Lance tends to win me over just becauseof all the high T models out there.

Soulrender: Meh. generally not worth the magic item alotment but can be nice on unit champions.

MAGIC ARMOUR

Armour of Living Death: Crikey. 60pts? My friends, magic armour should do 2 things. Keep you alive and keep enemy ACR to a minimum. Normally these two things go hand in hand. This one makes you no harder to kill realistically(How many Heroes/Lords/Monsters/Knights/Elite Infantry/Bloody hell, etc...) are S6 or higher? Or have Killing Blow or Poison? best cas scenrio you survive on 1 wound because of your awesome armour. the you break and get run down because they scored 3 wounds on your Lord choice... This one is a "no" then.

Armour of Eternal Servitude: Now, forgive me if I'm wrong but shouldn't this item cost 50pts like normal Regen items do? We discussed this over here and though that its cheapness is due to the Druchii's T3. But if thats the case the Sword of Ruin should be cheaper due to the Druchii's S4. Oh well, whatever. A great item that offers cheap protection. Just don't go near Killing Blow.

Cloak of Hag Graef: Pointless item. Just pointless. Cannons wound on 2+ Now they wound on, 2+... Gah...

Armour of Darkness: I like this, simply because it doesn't include a Shield meaning a great weapon is fair game. Its not special in any way(Armour of Meteoric Iron) but its solid.

Shield of Ghrond: Only good vs S5 attacks or lower, against anything else the Enchanted Shield is a better choice. Obey me, for I am : MATH!

Blood Armour: Just doesn't see play, doesn't combo with anything and gives you a potential 1 save when something that gives you a "1+" save costs only 10pts more...

Talismans:

Black Amulet: Far too expensive for what it does. It it didn't allow Ward saves or Regeneration then maybe it would be worth it. but its a gamble that just not worth taking.

Ring of Darkness: This basically translates into "most armies suffer -1 to shoot you" and "most fighty lords hit you on 4+ instead of 3+ or 4+"
For 40pts its not worth it, because if they do hit you die. If it rounded DOWN(Soory about the caps, I can't underline in edit) it would be good enough to see play I feel.

Pendant of Khaeleth: Very good, always included in Druchii lists and in no way broken whatsoever because: Drum role please!
"Every army has items like this one!"
Seriously, there is an entire thread dedicated to this item so I'm not going to go into it here.

Seal of Ghrond: Poor thing, one of this items best qualities last edition was how easy it was to combo it with something, now you just can't put it on because it essentially "wastes" the remaining 20pts. Maybe on a Dreadlord but I haven't seen it yet...

Pearl of Infinite Bleakness: Cheap, has a function. Decent item. I'm never surprised to see this item as its sort of anti-meta.

Ring of Hotek: Interesting item, only take it if you know how to use it! Its cheap so makes it into most lists.

Null Talisman: Decent item. Normally put on unit champions but can make its way onto pegasus riding heroes or monster riding heroes. I don't see it crop up that often though due to its "Once off" effect, and in open army list play its really not as good as it is in closed list play.

Arcane Items:

Staff of Darkness: Good item, over 50pts = not broken. Only just over 50 = Not pointless! I recomend this item on Lv4 Sorceresses/Morathii.

Focus Familiar: This has its uses, but don't be fooled. Its only okay, not great. It allows for 2 things, casting from behind/in terrain and casting from combat. Now casting from or in terrain effectively limits your range, so if you don't roll the right spells it can be a waste. When casting from combat you have to recognise the fact that your Sorceress is in combat...How is she still alive and how did you let this happen? :)

Darkstar Cloak: Its nearly always included in Druchii lists, nearly every list has an item lie this and they are well worth taking if you go magic heavy.

Sacrificial Dagger: Good item but I actually don't like it. Using a block of Spearmen as a "battery" is weird to me. I also don't like sticking expensive fragile models into weak bodyguards(Or block infantry of any shape, way or form for that matter) Its an auto-in for most DE players, but not for I!

Tomb of Furion: I like it, on a Lv4 it means you normally get your "favourite" spell and on a Lv2 you get more choices. More choice = better so for 15pts... The only thing that this has going against it is its arcane slot.

MAGIC STANDARDS

Banner of Nagarythe: I don't like this, +1 CR is too little and making one unit unbreakable is well, not enough "bang for your buck."

Hydra Banner: Or as I like to call it, the "Basket." You can stick it on a BSB(and only a BSB) and then chuck him into a CoK unit and hope to god nothing goes wrong... Me, I'm more conservative.

Dread Banner: Just not worth it, the only things that can take it are BG(Will never outnumber thus not really making the best use of it) and a BSB(I like 50pts of magic items + BSB, not BSB+magic banner)

Standard of Slaughter: Okay, not great compared to the Daemonic "Banner of Unholy Victory" but still has its uses. My main point of contention with this banner is that you only really charge into combats you expect to win, so adding a banner to further tip the odds doesn't seem like rational spending. Combo: BSB+This on a Manticore. Can work wonders.

Standard of Haeg Graef: Mass produced after the Sundering because great Malekith forsaw the Black Guards love of fine silk...
Hmm, that was funnier in my head but I must press on, its a great banner that sees play for a reason. Its depressing that Witch Elves and Executioners don't have acces to this, as it might make them playable.

Sea Serpent Standard: Meh, if it wasn't Corsairs only this would be good! As it is its rather pointless.

Banner of Murder: I favour the Warbanner over this for several reasons. I'll explain later.

Banner of Cold Blood: Oh for the love of Khaine! Pointless, annoying and frankly infuriating! Its attempting to be what CoK's need to make it into lists of the more conservative players like myself but in the end its an epic failure.

I think that about does it for now...

Malice&Mizery
13-12-2008, 21:03
Draconian77, that was amazing. Thankyou for your input into this thread :)

Draconian77
13-12-2008, 21:31
Meh, I had some spare time and the Druchii are the only fantasy race that I have ever collected for WHFB.

Well, I did go through a "phase" with Tomb Kings...Something about the Ushabti grabbed my attention.

Hopefully others will expand upon/disagree with/chew through what I posted.

Malice&Mizery
13-12-2008, 21:45
Meh, I had some spare time and the Druchii are the only fantasy race that I have ever collected for WHFB.

Well, I did go through a "phase" with Tomb Kings...Something about the Ushabti grabbed my attention.

Hopefully others will expand upon/disagree with/chew through what I posted.

We can only hope, I'd like to see this flourish so it can help out all the new players like myself.

Dooks Dizzo
14-12-2008, 05:06
I don't think Cold One Knights are all that bad, but I run Malus with them...so no Stupidity for me!

They hit harder than a lot of people's Cav with their S6 and rerolling hits along with S4 mounts is nothing to scoff at. I think they are a great hammer unit but you want to be careful about counting on them too much due to Stupidity.

And the models rock :)

I would also point out that the DE player who won the Baltimore GT used a Cauldron of Blood. +1 attack on Black Guard for example can be rather effective.

Anyone want to throw down some pointers on the DE special characters? Who's good, who's bad and who's ugly?

backslide
14-12-2008, 09:16
I'm intrested to hear peoples thoughts on fellheart, love the model not sure what to make of his rules

vinny t
14-12-2008, 13:58
One of my favorite tricks with dark elves is to run a cauldron of blood and two innocent looking units of 5 CoKs. Then, give them +1 attack and send them screaming into whatever unit you want gone. 10 Ws5 S6 rerollable attacks and 5 Ws3 S4 attacks have a way with breaking units.

My other favorite unit is Supreme sorceress on Black Dragon with Focus familiar, Pendnt, and dispel scroll. Dragon = flanks, Sorceress can still throw down magic missles in combat, or just hide from a gunline and still throw out spells. This combo has won me insane amounts of games.

Draconian77
15-12-2008, 00:06
Because this was bound to come up eventually...

SPECIAL CHARACTERS

Malekith: Well, first things first he is S5 and T4, reminiscent of the Druchii Anointed from the CoS list from the SoC. He has lost his S6 weapon and the Destroyer is a little worse than it use to be but what did he gain you ask?

Well, he generates 1 extra PD and DD which is nice but much more imoprtantly he gained the Spellshield. So, basically your opponent will only cast magic missiles at him if A)They have a good chance of Irresistable(sp?) Force or B)Their spellcaster is very durable(High T, multi-wounded, ward saves)

Overall much better than he was but still best reserved for larger games.

Morathi: Well, she lost +2 to cast(Now only has +1 to cast) but she gained all spells from the Lore of Dark magic(rather than choosing 4) and she had her MR upgraded from 1 to 2. She lost a point of S but Sulephet is much better now, and of course don't forget about hatred. I have to say that for her points Morathi is a very attractive option for those of you who want to play magic heavy and don't mind special characters.

She can take 1 Arcane and 1 Enchanted item. I would always recomend the Black Staff. For enchanted items the Deathmask or Dragons Egg could prove useful. She must also choose between the Heartrender or the Darksword. The Darksword is worthless in my opinion so you may aswell pay the extra 20pts to get the Heartrender. She works out(fully loaded) at around 600pts but she brings a lot to the table. Being a flyer with a ward Save, magic resistance and a spell that can replenish lost wounds she can be rather difficult to actually kill. Keep her out of combats that she isn't guaranteed to win.

Crone Hellebron: An interesting character that allows Witch Elves to be taken as Core choices. She generates massive amounts of ACR but has no armour or wards to speak off. Probably best left to larger games and themed lists. You can place her on a Manticore but we all know how easy flying, large targets with frenzy are to bait away.

Malus Darkblade: Right off the bat he still doesn't have a Sea Dragon Cloak listed in his equipment making him quite vulrenable to high S attacks. His best feature is his ability to quell Stupidity in a unit of CoK's, as well as generating enough ACR to see them win nearly any fight. A combination of S5(released Tz'arkan), hatred and the warpsword of Khaine mean that he will almost never fluffs it. An interesting play in closed list enviroments is to release him on turn 1 and move him and his unit right in front of some heavy hitting cavalry. More often than not the opponent will charge banking on killing him with some allocated attacks. This is when you reveal the Standard of Hag Graef on your Cold One Knights(!) and proceed to let Malus butcher the enemy knights...

A very expensive character that may or may not pay off.

Shadowblade, Master of Assassins: Shadowblade allows you to kill an opponents artillery piece or fragile character almost without fail. However there is a 1/6 chance that this doesn't pay off and he costs 300pts himself. Sometimes he is exactly what you need to win, sometimes he is the epitome of wasted points.

Lokhir: Terror, Regeneration, re-rolls, extra attacks, double VP's for units he runs down... Lokhir is a beast. His only real weakness is against monsters of cavalry as he will be in an infantry unit(slow) and he won't be gaining extra attacks. Best used in a unit of Corsairs... apparently. Remember you first have to win combat to pursue units and Corsairs fighting capabilities are minimal. Now, in a unit of Black Guard with ASF or the Banner of Murder he might really shine. Again, you pay a premium for his abilities so think about wether or not you'll actually be able to use his abilities. (Cough "Undead/Daemons" Cough)

Hats off to GW, none of these characters are game breaking or undercosted. In fact I would say many of them are a tad overpriced.

Nicha11
15-12-2008, 00:19
good little combo, DE hero on chariot

give him/her the life taker and and blood armour, as you roll towards enemy
lines open fire imrpoving your armour save all the way:evilgrin:

Draconian77
15-12-2008, 05:13
That definately does not work anymore.
Re-read the blood armour entry.

Also Blood Armour = maximum 1+ save...

Chariot(+2), Heavy Armour(+2), Sea Dragon Cloak(+1) and instead of the Blood Armour, Enchanted Shield(+2) = 0+ save... Chuck on the Deathpiercer and watch those heads roll!

==Me==
15-12-2008, 05:28
Lokhir is great, his only real downside is a lack of ward and only S4, plus his rather high price tag for a Hero. Otherwise, Terror, Regen, a potential boat load of attacks, doubling VPs (great when combined with Slavers), and Daring Leap (great for protecting other characters or getting right where he needs to be) make him a fantastic choice.

I think I'll pull a Draconian and give ==My== thoughts on magic items, kudos for thinking up the idea.

Magic Weapons-We've got a lot of situational and crap weapons, but a handful of real winners, much like the rest of the items.

Executioner's Axe-When it hits home it kills things dead, but such a high cost means you won't be getting any form of protection beyond mundane armor and maybe the Blood Armor. A good choice for a unit with the Standard of Hag Graef, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Sword of Ruin-Ignoring Armor Saves is nice, S4 is not.

Web of Shadows-Utter phail.

Chillblade-With a high WS and Hatred you can force plenty of T tests. While not so useful against tougher enemies, it is a handy tool against T4 or less critters. Also good against the Pendant of Khaleth.

Heartseeker-You already re-roll hits from Hatred and S4 still just doesn't cut it.

Hydra Blade-S4 rears its ugly head again, but it isn't a bad combo with the Potion of Strength.

Caledor's Bane-Great for going after chariots, tougher monsters and great against Dragons/Lizzies. It suffers from the same problems as other lances, but with such high S, hatred+high WS and plenty of attacks you should be winning combat in one round anyway. It does run a tad pricy though.

Dagger of Hotek-ASF is nice, extra attacks are too, but S4 just kills it. We've got the Banner of Hag Graef anyway.

Lifetaker-It's a nice item for any character riding a chariot, dark steed or flying mount. 3 S4 shots hitting on a 2+ can seriously mess up a war machine crew or skirmishers.

Crimson Death-A great item, probably one of the best magic weapons we've got. High S that doesn't slow you down or go away, low cost, and using 2 hands is hardly a downside considering how easy it is for DE characters to get great armor with simple mundane equipment.

Deathpiercer-Lances are nice, KB is nice too. Another cheap magic weapon that is quite useful.

Whip of Agony-S5 and armor piercing is really good, and if you allow it to provide extra attacks for 2 hand weapons it's even better.

Soulrender-A cheap magic GW and armor piercing is great on a Dreadlord or Master sitting in a unit of ASF Black Guard.

Magic Armor
Armor of Living Death-+1T and +1W isn't bad, but Stupidity and a high cost make it not the best choice out there. However, putting it on a Cold One or chariot more or less negates a downside.

Armor of Eternal Servitude-Cheap Regeneration is never unwelcome.

Cloak of Hag Graef-Not bad for the odd cannonball coming your way, but why is your Dreadlord/Master running around alone? There are better armor choices and he should be within a unit anyway.

Armor of Darkness-A cheap 1+ save is great for characters on foot or riding mounts that aren't Cold Ones.

Shield of Ghrond-Lame.

Blood Armor-A cheap little item and after only a few kills you end up doing as well as the Armor of Darkness for 10 points cheaper.

Enchanted Items
Deathmask-With so many Terror causers running around, I don't see much use for it.

Hydra's Teeth-Expensive, not too hitty (low WS and S) and not even that good at sniping characters. There are better items out there.

Crystal of Midnight-One use and forgetting a random spell isn't all that hot considering how much you pay for it.

Black Dragon Egg-A nifty little trick, but a single use hampers its effectiveness.

Potion of Strength-Nice combo potential, but a single use hurts it again.

Gem of Nightmares-Fear for a turn isn't all that neat, we've got better Fear causers out there. Cheap spear elves combine well with this for outnumbering however.

Guiding Eye-Seeing a pattern here? Only one use, but re-rolling misses isn't all that bad. Joining a Bolt Thrower crew first turn is a good use of it.

Talismans
Black Amulet-A 4+ ward that bounces hits back on to the enemy, but it is rather expensive and suffers from the problem all Talisman face, not being the Pendant of Khaleth

Ring of Darkness-Great for a character sitting with a soft unit like Black Guard, keeping them from getting shot and helps him against fighty enemies too. Hitting of 3's most of the time with Eternal Hatred will net many hits coming in. Not a Pendant of Khaleth however.

Pendant of Khaleth-Great, absolutely great. This is easily the best item in the book, it makes the character immune to high S attacks and with mundane armor or you can get a high save, the Pendant to bounce off high S attacks and even Regen on top of it.

Seal of Ghrond-Extra dispel dice never hurt.

Pearl of Infinite Bleakness-ITP is nice, but we've just got too many good Talismans.

Ring of Hotek-Seriously hampers magic to the point of making it extremely dangerous. It won't stop single dice castings like Invocation of Nehek but it is excellent protection for your units against magic missiles and the like. Put it on a mobile character and you can get enemy mages to destroy themselves.

Null Talisman-Cheap magic resistance that can be take like Dispel Scrolls and combined helps significantly in an army without much to do against magic.

Arcance Items
Black Staff-PoD is great, casting it twice is even better.

Focus Familar-Keeps your Sorceress out of sight and still casting. Alternatively you can use it to cast from combat. At first glance that seem suicidal for a weak Sorceress, but put her on a Dragon with the Pendant of Khaleth and you can let your big lizard tear people up while still casting at full effect.

Darkstar Cloak-Cheap free PD are always welcome.

Sacrificial Dagger-Combined with cheap spear elves this item is borderline broken. Magic batteries ftw!

Tome of Furion-Extra spells are nice.

Magic Standards
Banner of Nagarythe-Extremely expensive but it helps a lot in combats within 12" and adds an Unbreakable unit into the mix without having to take Kouran.

Hydra Banner-Downright dirt when put with Cold One Knights. 2 S6 attacks with WS5 and Hatred plus 2 S4 attacks with WS3 and Hatred absolutely shreds just about anything. It's biggest downside is the cost and inherent requirement of a BSB.

Dread Banner-Weaksauce. We've got Fear causers and worse like crazy, and I rather not waste a BSB or sacrifice the Standard of Hag Graef for it.

Standard of Slaughter-Cheap +D3 combat res is great on a unit like COKs that absolutely must win on the charge.

Standard of Hag Graef-Perfect for Black Guard, ASF ftw!

Sea Serpent Standard-It only works on Corsairs but makes them extremely potent, like well armored Witch Elves. Combines well with the Cauldron of Blood for tons of KB attacks.

Banner of Murder-AP is very handy on a lower S unit like Corsairs.

Banner of Cold Blood-If you can't afford any other banner and absolutely must make that charge with your COKs or hold against an enemy charge.

All in all, we have a good selection of magic items with a few real winners (Pendant, Sacrificial Dagger, Ring of Hotek, Standard of Hag Graef), a few good items, plenty of situational and iffy ones and a couple real sinkers (mostly enchanted items).

Draconian77
15-12-2008, 05:44
I don't know about everyone else but I generally just pick from these each game:

Lifetaker
Crimson Death
Deathpiercer

Armour of Eternal Servitude
Armour of Darkness

Black Dragon Egg

Pendant of Khaeleth
Pearl of Infinate Bleakness
Ring of Hotek

Black Staff
Darkstar Cloak

Standard of Hag Graef

So a dozen DE items + commons.

I'm still down about the Seal of Ghrond, it tries very hard to make it into my lists but it just doesn't fit at 30pts...

==Me==
15-12-2008, 13:54
I really like the Arcane items, they all have a use depending on how you set up your casters. But otherwise we've got a handful of good items and a lot of situational/crap items. For weapons its Caledor's Bane, Crimson Death, Lifetaker, Soulrender, Deathpiercer and Whip of Agony. For Enchanted it's pretty much the Black Dragon Egg and maybe the Guiding Eye. Most of the Talismans are useful, the Black Amulet is just too expensive. Armor of Darkness, Hag Graef and Blood Armor is all I use, but I can see the appeal of the Armor of Living Death, it's just expensive.

Salmon
15-12-2008, 19:04
I really like the Arcane items, they all have a use depending on how you set up your casters. But otherwise we've got a handful of good items and a lot of situational/crap items. For weapons its Caledor's Bane, Crimson Death, Lifetaker, Soulrender, Deathpiercer and Whip of Agony.

I broadly agree with what you say in your post, but I have to take issue with the inclusion of Caledor's Bane on this list, on account of the fact that it is patently overpointed; with regards to its strength, it is a rare case indeed where one would need the extra point of strength over a mundane lance, or would not be better served by possessing killing blow, as the vast majority of units or characters that the lord is going to want to be fighting are going to have t4 or less; sure there are heroes, like Chaos or Dwarven Lords, against whom the extra point of strength will be useful, but those are the kind of enemies against whom you would not wish to be hurling a 4 attack, toughness 3, wounds 3 elf, irrespective of his weaponry, even if one did, the killing blow ability of the death piercer is markedly superior.
The ability to ignore scaly skin is a bit of a canard, because it will only come into play against monsters on turns which the hero did not charge; indeed, the only enemies which I can foresee it being useful against are the buffed up Saurus Warriors and respective elite choices of the upcoming Lizardmen book.

Simply put, Caledor's Bane is one of those weapons where I simply think the mundane equivalent is superior.

With regards to Draconian 77's list, I think that there is a disservice done to the talismans which are evidently superior, the magic banners, which, while limited by the 25 point item limit for Witch Elves and Executioners, are still superior to the banners of pretty much any race apart from VC and Daemons.

Draconian77
15-12-2008, 19:32
With regards to Draconian 77's list, I think that there is a disservice done to the talismans which are evidently superior, the magic banners, which, while limited by the 25 point item limit for Witch Elves and Executioners, are still superior to the banners of pretty much any race apart from VC and Daemons.


Okay, i'll bite... Which talismans?

The Pendant, the Pearl and the Ring have definate uses for their points.


Now in my opinion:

The Black Amulet has a use but costs too much. Also ignoring armour saves is nice but for such a risky manuever to be worth it I would expect it to ignore all saves.

The Ring of Darkness is too costly. Against BS 3 infantry it's only minus 1 to hit, but even more than that I feel that the Druchii list is more than capable of shutting down shooting(Chillwind, Word of Pain, Dark Riders, Shades, Assassins, Harpies, Manticores, Dragons, Dark Pegasus mounted characters...) without the need to spend points on situational magic items.

In combat I feel you don't really gain enough to justify the 40pt price tag.

The Null Talisman is a nifty little item who's effect is minimal when stacked and minimal when not stacked. I also think the Ring of Hotek builds or the magic heavy builds render it pointless.

The Seal of Ghrond. This was always in my lists last edition but since then its been left out. No longer can you have a Lv2 generate an extra PD and DD, in fact if you take the Seal you only have access to 3 other items from the Druchii magic items list(Tomb of Furion, Soulrender, Blood Armour)

On the banners;

The Banner of Nagarythe: Just not really viable at the average point game.
Hydra Banner: Some people like this, I feel the entire build is too risky. I'm not saying that its bad, it's just not for me.
Dread Banner: Well this is off limited use(A: Lots of ItP armies these days, and the one's that aren't are tooling up to deal with Fear because the ItP armies also cause Fear in most cases, B: The Druchii have many Terror and Fear causers already)
Standard of Slaughter: Only useful on cavalry, on anything else its a gamble. I don't like the Druchii heavy cavalry so its not an item I ever consider.
Sea Serpent Standard: If this wasn't Corsairs only it would be useful.
Banner of Murder: Occasionally selected on my second Spearmen blocks just to boost the attached characters and Assassins...
Banner of Cold Blood: ...

Salmon
15-12-2008, 22:38
Okay, i'll bite... Which talismans?

The Pendant, the Pearl and the Ring have definate uses for their points.


Now in my opinion:

The Black Amulet has a use but costs too much. Also ignoring armour saves is nice but for such a risky manuever to be worth it I would expect it to ignore all saves.

The Ring of Darkness is too costly. Against BS 3 infantry it's only minus 1 to hit, but even more than that I feel that the Druchii list is more than capable of shutting down shooting(Chillwind, Word of Pain, Dark Riders, Shades, Assassins, Harpies, Manticores, Dragons, Dark Pegasus mounted characters...) without the need to spend points on situational magic items.

In combat I feel you don't really gain enough to justify the 40pt price tag.

The Null Talisman is a nifty little item who's effect is minimal when stacked and minimal when not stacked. I also think the Ring of Hotek builds or the magic heavy builds render it pointless.

The Seal of Ghrond. This was always in my lists last edition but since then its been left out. No longer can you have a Lv2 generate an extra PD and DD, in fact if you take the Seal you only have access to 3 other items from the Druchii magic items list(Tomb of Furion, Soulrender, Blood Armour)

The Null Talisman I feel, at a mere 15 points, is a rather good item given that it allows any given unit to contribute magic resistance towards numerous spells; On a cold one knight champion, it allows the unit to gain a greater resilience against magic missiles, which is something the unit suffers from to a greater extent than most other heavy cavalry. It could also help with regards magic resistance on black guard if one is assuming that the ring of hotek was to be placed on a flying hero.

The Ring of Darkness is sensible less in its defence of an individual hero, but more in its defence of a unit or a monstrous mount, where the -1 to hit could actually halve the number of incoming shots (if it reduces 5+ to 6+ or 6+ to 7+).

I will, of course agree with you point regarding the black amulet and the seal of ghrond, although I could hypothetically see it present in a battle where magic defence is the order of the day and the ring of hotek is insufficient.

In fact, I think that much of you dismissal (no offense, I promise I'm not trying to do you down, you've probably fought and won more battles than I've turned up to games) of items reflects a dismissal of units (such as corsairs and cold one knights) than of the actual power level. The Sea Serpent Banner, for instance, is a very sensible choice on corsairs, while the hydra banner is probably the best magic banner choice for a battle standard bearer, but seeing as you don’t seem to use either of those, not that there’s anything wrong with that, I can see why you don’t see them as useful.

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree, although I do think that a lot of what you said was sensible.

Draconian77
16-12-2008, 00:15
The Null Talisman I feel, at a mere 15 points, is a rather good item given that it allows any given unit to contribute magic resistance towards numerous spells; On a cold one knight champion, it allows the unit to gain a greater resilience against magic missiles, which is something the unit suffers from to a greater extent than most other heavy cavalry. It could also help with regards magic resistance on black guard if one is assuming that the ring of hotek was to be placed on a flying hero.

Sensible argument, although I still say that they will see less play than the 3 I normally choose. Now if only I used Black Guard or Cold One Knights!

The Ring of Darkness is sensible less in its defence of an individual hero, but more in its defence of a unit or a monstrous mount, where the -1 to hit could actually halve the number of incoming shots (if it reduces 5+ to 6+ or 6+ to 7+).

My only gripe here is that the vast majority of units will simple never need to hit a Large Target on anything worse than 4+.

In fact, I think that much of you dismissal (no offense, I promise I'm not trying to do you down, you've probably fought and won more battles than I've turned up to games) of items reflects a dismissal of units (such as corsairs and cold one knights) than of the actual power level. The Sea Serpent Banner, for instance, is a very sensible choice on corsairs, while the hydra banner is probably the best magic banner choice for a battle standard bearer, but seeing as you don’t seem to use either of those, not that there’s anything wrong with that, I can see why you don’t see them as useful.

Well this is just two people having slightly different points of view.
Sea Serpent Banner = Sensible choice on Corsairs(You)
Corsairs = Nonsensical choice(Me)

It probably doesn't help that games around here are quite (friendly)competitive.

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree, although I do think that a lot of what you said was sensible.

It was a pleasure arguing/debating/conversing with you.


Well, that all worked out in a rather civilised manner, didn't it?

==Me==
16-12-2008, 04:14
Grawr I hate everyone and you are dumb and smelly.

That better? :p

I run up against Dragon loving HE quite a bit so that may color ==My== views on Caledor's Bane. It's an expensive item, but it makes a total mess of those big ugly lizards.

As for the Talismans, their biggest problem is the uber awesome Pendant and Ring. Any other army would love such useful items, but when compared to the really good stuff they don't compare.

I like the Ring of Darkness on a Dreadlord sitting with some BG, T3 5+ isn't all that tough and anything to reduce the impact of fire coming their way is always good. Same goes for monstrous mounts.

The Black Amulet is really expensive but is great for challenges. Since we get such high armor from mundane equipment anyway, you can spring for the Amulet and pick up a good and cheap magic weapon for a hard Lord that can do well against enemy characters/monsters.

The Pearl is cheap ITP, which is always handy against Daemons/VCs. How about the Pearl on a Sorc with the Dagger, keeps the spearmen from running once she manages to kill a lot of them.

The Seal of Ghrond is some welcome defense against supporting magic (we've got offensive magic covered with the Ring and Null Talismans), its cost often keeps it out of the army.

Null Talismans are cheap MR and combine well.

With regards to units and banners, I'm a big fan of Corsairs and Cold Ones so I like the Sear Serpent Standard and Hydra Banner. Corsairs have better armor and killing power than spear elves plus the Slavers rule. The SSS makes them great at mulching lighter infantry and when combined with Assassins or the Cauldron they are scary. COKs must win when they charge and the Hydra Banner+Standard of Slaughter will do just that. 2 WS5 S6 attacks each with Hatred is awesome, and that's before factoring in their mounts, the champion or BSB. It's an expensive unit, but with the Ring on tow they do quite well.

How are people finding Khainite units or a pure Khainite army. I love Assassins, MSU Execs and the Cauldron, but I'm not sure if a pure-ish Khaine army could work.

Draconian77
16-12-2008, 09:31
Grawr I hate everyone and you are dumb and smelly.

That better? :p

Much!


I like the Ring of Darkness on a Dreadlord sitting with some BG, T3 5+ isn't all that tough and anything to reduce the impact of fire coming their way is always good. Same goes for monstrous mounts.

But, but... :cries:
Dragons don't rerally fear anything except for runed-up bolt throwers and cannons. Cannons don't even roll to hit.
Manticores certainly fear most shooting, but at the same time they fly, harpies fly, we have some decent scouts and some great fast cavalry. Not to mention 1/3 of Dark magic negates shooting.
Pretty much the same argument for the BG, apart from replace Cannons with Stone Throwers/Flame Cannons/Organ Guns/Salamanders and you still have no "to hit" roll...
I must be missing something...

The Black Amulet is really expensive but is great for challenges. Since we get such high armor from mundane equipment anyway, you can spring for the Amulet and pick up a good and cheap magic weapon for a hard Lord that can do well against enemy characters/monsters.

Surely having a high armour save is counter productive in this case as you want to be taking Ward saves? Most importantly though(and I did playtest this) having your rebounded wounds saved by your opponents Ward/Regen saves is just too frustrating.

With regards to units and banners, I'm a big fan of Corsairs and Cold Ones so I like the Sear Serpent Standard and Hydra Banner. Corsairs have better armor and killing power than spear elves plus the Slavers rule. The SSS makes them great at mulching lighter infantry and when combined with Assassins or the Cauldron they are scary. COKs must win when they charge and the Hydra Banner+Standard of Slaughter will do just that. 2 WS5 S6 attacks each with Hatred is awesome, and that's before factoring in their mounts, the champion or BSB. It's an expensive unit, but with the Ring on tow they do quite well.

Very expensive unit... I would take the equivalent points in Spearelves and Chariots...

How are people finding Khainite units or a pure Khainite army. I love Assassins, MSU Execs and the Cauldron, but I'm not sure if a pure-ish Khaine army could work.



Assassins: Excellent, expensive but excellent. You really need good magic defense to get the best out of them in my experience.

Execs: I find them to be utterly pointless in comparison with BG, even in MSU roles. (Ok, not being able to flee makes the BG a little less versatile in the movement phase but it makes locking the enemy in place for a flank charge almost a certainty)

Cauldren: Far too expensive, waste of a hero slot. (Again, just my opinion and in no way a certifiable fact)

I would say a Khainite army might do well vs some opponents and badly vs others, but I would base it on Witch Elves and Hellbron and leave the Executioners at home...

Norngahl
16-12-2008, 12:25
Hi there!

Well, here are my 5cents.

Generally, I take 17 BG with Full Command, Banner of Hag Graef, Ring of Hotek. Into this, I put a Dreadlord with Armor of Darkness, Pendant and Soulrender.
I love this unit. It doesnīt need support as it can take a few wounds and still be effective and, as you know, it hits very hart against everything. It also offers a magical protection to the anvil of your army. Quite a fair deal, but still expensive. But otherwise, you can leave other expensive things at home.

Hydras are great. I always take 2 of them. For 350 points you got 26 attacks (tag team), well, there is nothing they wonīt break.

The Cauldron. Combined with BSB, your anvil troops will stand and fight, and you can allocate +1 attack to units like BG or CoK. You win games through breaking important enemy units. Thats what the cauldron is made for. Break that enemy 500+ points unit and eat up the rest. You shouldnīt forget that every dead enemy means less damage on our troops. DE have a poor defence (exept a fully kitted dreadlord). They need to kill as many opponents as possible, so that they donīt suffer from counter attacks. The Cauldron is made for those things. Put the BSB on it to keep you anvil, support BG and CoK to break enemys and reduce the enemys damage through offensive tactics.
Also had a nice idea about KB. Put a 10 man wide cosair unit with hand XBows in front of chosen. Take stand and shoot and cause damage through KB missiles. This also works at ordinary XBows, nice suprise, if you are going to loose the unit anyway. Shooting with KB and Stand and Shoot with KB will cause, mainly 4-5 dead enemies. Of course, use this tactic against heavy troops.
As well, +1 attack on spearman is nice as well, if they block light units. 20 attacks with hatred against goblins or such is not bad.
The Cauldron is great. The only minus is, that you wonīt need the stubborn ability, because every khainite unit is weak in my opinion.



Personally, for a hart hitting combat list, I would recommend mine:
Dreadlord Sheol with Armor of Darkness, Pendant, Soulrender (->BG) 215
Deathhag Pariah with Cauldron and BSB 225
Sorcress Naglfar with 2 scrolls 150
20 Warriors with Shields and Command 155
20 Warriors with Shields and Command 155
5 Dark Riders 85
7 Harpies 77
6 Harpies 66
6 CoK with Command 202
17 Black Guards, Full Command, Banner of Hag Graef, Ring of Hotek
2 War Hydras 350
1996

Made a tourney with this list and scored 3rd place of 34, 1st of DE. Mainproblem is magic defence. If we play with 2250 points, I usually take a second mage with another 2 scrolls, and a toys for 100 points. Shades, Witch Elves, Executioners, depends on the enemy.


greetings
Andy

kabum
16-12-2008, 19:31
Bravo draconian77 a great exposition that helps a lot.
thanks for your work

Draconian77
17-12-2008, 01:25
Hardly work...

My regular Druchii list;

Dreadlord, Dark Pegasus, Pendant of Khaeleth, Lifetaker, Potion of Strength, Lance, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Heavy Armour

Master, Dark Pegasus, Deathpiercer, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak

Master, BSB, Armour of Darkness, Ring of Hotek, Great Weapon. (Black Guard)

Sorceress, 2 Dispel Scrolls

20 Warriors, Shields, FC, Warbanner
5 Dark Riders
5 Harpies
10 Crossbowmen

17 Black Guard, FC, Banner of Hag Graef, Crimson Death
Cold One Chariot
Cold One Chariot

War Hydra
War Hydra

If memory serves it's 1995pts, but I may be getting that wrong.

darkened sun
17-12-2008, 09:49
yay, a druchii thread! this is what everyone needs.

i've taken a unit of 9 COKs with ASF banner and a BSB with the hydra banner (in a 3000 pts game). large to absorb cas, and cause auto-flee. i ranked them 7 x 3, and they generated 32 attacks... most of them ST 6 on the charge, and the rest of them ST 4. needless to say, they wiped out everything they touched...

anyway... i do agree that corsairs are overpriced for what they do. they should probably be 8 pts (or maybe 9) and definitely WS 5. giving them the option of shields would be silly, though. damn, i've been taking corsairs since the new book; i should have dropped them ages ago. just realised they've been compromising my list after reading through this thread.

ring of darkness on a character in a unit of black guard might be worth considering. BG take SO much missile fire. RBTs cut them down like anything.

assassins hack everything down. they are way overpowered, mainly because of rune of khaine. but they end up very, very expensive once you tool them up. i would say they are very hard to use truly effectively, though... you can almost take a sorceress for their price, which can be used every turn, whereas the assassin can't. taking a different toxin overrides their poisoned attacks, so you should really take one if you want to get a KB hit in combat against characters. infantry killing assassins with 2 HW, rune and manbane are brutal. however, it's questionable how neccessary this is as you could just get in a flank charge instead with DR, for example. overall, i expect assassins to be more or less be absent in competitive DE lists.

cold one chariots are really good. probably better than knights.

executioners are sad, and i actually have a unit of these, which i bought back in 2001. i suppose you could give them a cheap BSB with the ASF banner, and use the cauldron to give them +1 A. not bad. it'll take ASF off the BG, which would otherwise be the best place to put it.

hydras are ridiculously awesome. you would think that you should just max out on them instead of taking the apparently mandatory 2 RBTs.

* * *

the magic items in the book are either really, really good or really, really bad. you would think that the GW brief was to go full-out on creativity at the expense of sanity. some of the items are simply some of the worst in the game. most of them are way too situational. you have to go wayyy down to crimson death to reach a decent weapon in the magic weapons.

the thing is that all the best items are super-cheap. there isn't any point discussing the crappy items as it is a depressing exercise, and some people in this thread have done so already. i think the 'musts' are:

lifetaker - 30 pts
crimson death - 25 pts

armour of eternal servitude - 35 pts
armour of darkness - 25 pts

pendant of khaeleth - 35 pts
ring of hotek - 25 pts

black staff - 55 pts... for high sorceresses
sacrificial dagger - 25 pts

standard of hag graef - 35 pts

all of these items except for the staff are 35 pts, 30 pts or 25 pts. utter bargains for what they do. alot of the items could be classified as 'interesting' in that you really need a plan to use them effectively. things like deathmask, black dragon egg, focus familiar, hydra banner, dread banner.

one of my favorite types of magic items is standards because they affect a whole unit and not just a single model. but one thing that pisses me off about the book is that there are so many units that have the option of taking a 25 point standard, and when you look at what their choices are, you cringe. there are 3 banners, and one of them is only for corsairs (i personally despise frenzy); another one is a one use only and pretty indifferent. that leaves only one banner, AP. war banner here we come...

hey does the black horror template wound everything it touches, or are there still partial hits?

draco, i really like your list :)

Draconian77
17-12-2008, 14:59
Tis' a product of refinement.

If you find your BG being shot down, screen them with Harpies. (Its not like it matters whether they charge or are charged anyway :D)

Assassins are nice and I normally add 1 to my list at 2250 with the Rune of Khaine/Touch of Death/Black Lotus combo, or as I like to call it, the "Chaos Knight Culler"

Hydras are very good, but Reapers shouldn't be looked down upon. I feel that a lot of DE armies will either use 2 of the first or 4 or the other.

The Armour of Eternal Servitude must go onto your list Sun, Regeneration at 35pts? Nice, especially because you don't have to pay the points for mundane heavy armour. (Ok, slim advantage I know but still)

I agree, a lot of the items are badly designed.

The Black Horror spell seems to function like a template from 40k now.

Banville
17-12-2008, 22:37
I've got to say lads and lasses that I think the dismissal of the Executioner's Axe is a tad short-sighted. Stick it in with a unit that ASF and challenge opposing champions. The D3 wounds for every wound inflicted adds up to the maximum overkill VERY quickly. If the champion refuses the challenge, just swing at the unit with DOUBLE their toughness. This weapon has honestly broken units on its own for me.

Anyone else use this with any success?

Draconian77
17-12-2008, 22:55
Its not that its offensive power isn't impressive, its that it essentially wastes 20pts of magical items as nothing combos with it(Well, except for a single Null Stone or the Blood Armour)

More importantly vs characters/monsters, if you fluff your attacks or they pass their wards/regens your very expensive Elf is now very doomed...

Also whilst 2xS is good, it can amount to S6 in a lot of cases which is equalled by a Great Weapon or the Crimson Death. Whilst D3 wounds is nice, it affects a small % of the models that your Dreadlord will be fighting.

Overall, just not worth the 80pts.

foehammer888
18-12-2008, 11:45
More importantly vs characters/monsters, if you fluff your attacks or they pass their wards/regens your very expensive Elf is now very doomed... The ward/regen I can understand, but fluffing attacks on an elf lord with hatred? At that point the dice really hate you, and if they hate you that much, they can just as easily fluff when you go to make the armor/ward/regen saves you bought instead of the executioner's axe.


Also whilst 2xS is good, it can amount to S6 in a lot of cases which is equalled by a Great Weapon or the Crimson Death. Isn't it twice your opponent's toughness? which means S6-8 most of the time. Is incredibly useful for reducing armor saves to nearly nothing.


Whilst D3 wounds is nice, it affects a small % of the models that your Dreadlord will be fighting. Yes, but as he stated

(1) incredibly useful in challenges for getting max overkill
(2) incredibly useful against opponents who are historically really bad for elves, like ogres, where you will take attacks even if you cause some wounds first.

chivalrous
18-12-2008, 15:42
I've always had great success with a fully armoured Master (Noble) on a Dark steed armed with the Blade of Ruin, accompanied by a naked minimal unit of Dark Riders.

It's a great heavy cav hunting unit, (T5+ heavy cav excluded) as well as large blocks of heavily armoured infantry (Dwarfs and Chaos Warriors). The sheer speed means that it'll generally hit most of those units in the flank, cutting out all opposing rank bonuses.

The S4 inherent in using the Blade of Ruin may be a little sad but apart from Orcs and Chaos you're still wounding on 3's. Eternal hatred means you're usually hitting with all three of your attacks. It's a rare combat when the Master isn't taking out 2 knights on his own, anything the Dark Riders cause is a bonus. They're really there to add numbers so he can cancel rank bonuses.
Where I find the Blade superior to any other weapon the Master could use is that if the unit does get bogged down in combat, if the Master does fluff his rolls, the effect continues into further rounds.
He's a godsend against Empire, Bretonnians and High Elves.

Of course that was last edition and while I still find the build very effective, against tougher armies (Chaos and Orcs again) and only against tougher armies, The Whip of Agony, being a S5 -3As weapon lacks the Blades penetration but balances out by causing on average an extra wound.

Banville
18-12-2008, 19:15
Yeah!! Good man Foehammer. Another player who can see the usefulness of The Axe. Try using it in a game folks and I guarantee you won't be disappointed. The key is to challenge at all times. I run a Dreadlord with the Executioner's Axe and Blood Armour in the front rank of 15 Black Guard with ASF. They've hacked through more units than you could shake a stick at at this stage and my gaming group have become so wary of this combo that absolutely nobody, including Chaos Knights will go up against it. You need a couple of Dispell Scrolls in reserve to stop Vaul's Unmaking and the Ring of Hotek somewhere else in your army and then just charge forward all speed ahead. Stick a unit of corsairs with an assassin on one side and a block of spearmen with sorceress on the other and you have a vanguard unit that will kill anything it touches.

By the way Draconian, whereabouts on the Isle of Saints and Scholars are you from?

Salmon
18-12-2008, 21:23
Stick a unit of corsairs with an assassin on one side and a block of spearmen with sorceress on the other and you have a vanguard unit that will kill anything it touches.


While I cannot disagree with this; the unit certainly exceedingly powerful, and as you rightly say, able to kill anything it touches, the problem lies here:


My gaming group have become so wary of this combo that absolutely nobody, including Chaos Knights will go up against it.



If no-one is willing to touch it, then it’s merely an exercise in points-denial to those armies which lack shooting or sufficient quantities of magic missiles, and a massive point-sink to those which do. I mean, this is exactly the same problem with all eggs in one basket units like Chaos Lords on foot in warriors, or Dwarf Lords in big units of Hammerers and so on, after a few goes, you cannot rely on your enemy being so co-operative; with many footslogging units like black guard, you’re got to rely on your enemy thinking that they’ve got a chance and thus not making their number one priority to be running the hell away from the enemy unit that will rip them to shreds; this is why I don’t quite like running black guard units with characters in them; because the enemy should be avoiding them like the plague and blasting them to hell at range if they can!

On the other hand, at least you’re not mired by the conventional thinking of pendant of khaeleth/armour of eternal servitude that has predominated dreadlord builds, my own included, so perhaps I’m missing the point and being too orthodox and not looking for more innovative combinations.

Hmm, I should probably end on a grand reconciliatory note in which all people reading this thread can be reunited in Druchii sisterhood and brotherhood.

“The shield of ghrond is rubbish!”

There, back to normal.

Elves All The Way
18-12-2008, 21:38
has anyone mentioned blood armour yet? i reckon it's one of the best, gaining a +1 to your armour save every turn until it's 1+ it's great with nobles and crimsen death or whip of agony and there you have a cheap effective noble, of course armour of darkness does the same thing giving a armour save of 1+ straight away but it's 10pts more expensive :P

Draconian77
19-12-2008, 00:23
@Foehammer: I think Salmon explained my point of view quite accurately.
Its all well and good if your opponent just chucks units into the grinder but why on earth would they? It's not like M5 infantry with Hatred is hard to M/B or redirect and you have much weaker points in your line. It serves as points denial only.

Also by fluffing his attack I didn't so much mean the hitting, I meant the wounding and multiplying, a Chaos Lord on 1 wound is just as likely to reduce that Dreadlord to paste as a Chaos Lord on 3 wounds.

"By the way Draconian, whereabouts on the Isle of Saints and Scholars are you from?"

I move around a lot. These days I am located jointly in between Galway, Limerick and Clare although I was born in Dublin and do try to visit every so often. I do wish GW would put a store along the West coast, Galway especially is nothing if not a student city.

"I've always had great success with a fully armoured Master (Noble) on a Dark steed armed with the Blade of Ruin, accompanied by a naked minimal unit of Dark Riders."

Not a bad build at all but I feel that a Dreadlord on a Pegasus can achieve the same thing solo leaving the Riders to do what they do best, sacrifice themselves somewhere else and generally bug my opponent! One thing that I also find a tad vulrenable about this build is the fact that it is easily reduced to a size were it stops negating ranks.

"has anyone mentioned blood armour yet? i reckon it's one of the best, gaining a +1 to your armour save every turn until it's 1+ it's great with nobles and crimsen death or whip of agony and there you have a cheap effective noble, of course armour of darkness does the same thing giving a armour save of 1+ straight away but it's 10pts more expensive :P"

Its just that that 10pts doesn't really get you anything as most peoples standard weapon picks cost 25pts(Crimson, Piercer, Whip) It's best place is arguably on a Dreadlord with an expensive magical weapon, of which I would choose -none-, but thats just me.

[EDIT] Or maybe on a Master on a Dark Pegasus with a Lance and Great Weapon...certainly an odd build mind.

Fenix_
21-12-2008, 18:08
what will be the best equip for a master on manticore? is worthy a BSB with banner of slaughter or may be too fragile?

darkened sun
22-12-2008, 13:24
let's compare some of the units within the army, and to their HE equivalent, to see their cost-effectiveness and other things...

spearmen > corsairs

alot has been said about this in this thread already. i think corsairs should only cost 8 points, and should have a slightly cheaper command (like a 5 point champion or something). spearmen effectively price corsairs out of the game (155 spearmen for 20 w/ FC versus 225 corsairs w/ FC). look at it this way: in the previous army book, spearmen and corsairs both cost the same at 10 points. corsairs were better. then after the revision, spearmen dropped by two points. the new army book saw them drop a further point, while corsairs stayed the same price the whole time. what was gav thinking? they need to be around 8 points, and they'd be fine, statwise i wouldn't complain. so it's basically a no-brainer now to take spearmen instead of corsairs and use those extra saved points for assassins and CC characters, as well as chariots and hydras.

high elves should feel hard done by as a unit of spearmen w/ FC costs 205 points for them, 50 extra. even with ASF and an extra rank over us, hatred makes even the humbest DE warrior a respectable hitter (against WS 3, dark elves have an 8/9 chance of hitting). across an army, those are just insanely good odds.

cold one chariot > cold one knights

well, the chariot seems so much better than the knights in many respects. COKs are only T3, which sucks. two chariots will do more damage on the charge than a unit of 5 or 6 knights, and can be split up. chariots have T5 and a good save. man, again i feel as though the cold one riders needed to have 2 attacks to warrant choosing them. they're supposed to be dark elf nobles after all. bummer.

black guard > executioners

OK, this is a no brainer, but, like COKs, i feel as though executioners needed 2 attacks. i hate to start to make it seem like i'm complaining in this thread but swordmasters, their equivalent, have 2A, so why don't execs? it's just dumb. someone else mentioned in this thread that BGs stats and rules are spot on in this army book, and it's true. it took a few tries, but they got there; but the opposite can be said about executioners. gav's just never managed to get them right. they used to be 11 points with light armour, then got their armour upgraded. in the new book they get more expensive. they are better in CC with hatred and +1 ST, but they need 2A... (for a slight price increase of course)... i think it's agreed that execs are pretty much the lamest unit in the book. for one thing, there is absolutely no point in taking a small unit of 10 (MSU), because chariots and hydras are just so much better now.

black dragon > manticore

the poor man's dragon doesn't seem to cut it, mainly because of his complete lack of save. he might still be worth taking, but a slight price drop as opposed to the price hike from the previous army book would have been nicer to see. not having the ability to breathe fire isn't such a big loss, but the 3+ save is. as someone else in this thread said, the extra 120 points for the dragon over the manticore is worth it.

ring of hotek: of course, one of the best items in the list. the odds of rolling doubles increase drastically the more dice the opponent uses to roll. that may be kind of obvious, but still. try rolling 4 or 5 dice without rolling a double. it's literally almost impossible. the odds for them are,

1d6 - n/a or 0%
2d6 - 1/6 or 16.7%
3d6 - 15/36 or 41.7%
4d6...

i got lost trying to figure out how to calculate the 4d6 and 5d6 odds. the 3d6 ones are right though, i checked before. if anyone knows how to work the other two out, that would be cool.

the effect of the ring of hotek is basically to discourage players rolling more than 3 dice to cast spells. that means that spells of cast value of 9 or 10 or so will rarely be cast. of course your opponent can always take the risk of miscasting or trying targeting units outside the ring's arc, but rolling 3 or more dice means miscast...

i kind of preferred the lifetaker rules in the previous ed. book with the re-rolls to wound. now it has an extra shot instead. the effect is pretty similar, though.

2 x 5/6 x 3/4 (T3) = 1.25 wounds
3 x 5/6 x 2/3 (T3) = 1.67 wounds

2 x 5/6 x 5/9 (T4) = 0.93
3 x 5/6 x 1/2 (T4) = 1.25

OK so lifetaker is much better now and has the chance to cause more wounds because of its greater number of shots.

draco: how is your experince with your characters on pegasii? for me, working out what units i want to take is a breeze, but when it comes to characters, i get so bogged down. there are just such an overwhelming number of choices and items. my main problem is that i don't have many good places for my characters to go in my units. so i have been thinking of something like your list, taking two peggies with CC characters, as well as a BSB in my black guard and a defensive sorceress (magic really is all or nothing). there don't seem to be many drawbacks to those pegusii, they are nice and cheap and very versatile. they just need to be used properly.

one thing i've noticed about the army book is that all the magic items are really weirdly priced. besides there being some of the best items in the game going at bargain basement prices, there are many items that are 5 points too expensive for you to have the "space" to take them (i.e. the 50 and 100 point limit). draco has talked about this, how so many items like the seal of ghrond are priced out of the game because you can't combine them with other choices.

man, i just hate doombolt. who doesn't? i always swap it for chillwind (great spell). kind of sad to see spell dominion gone from the list, although it had a very short range. i used to take a reasnoble amount of magic, but i'm having doubts about magic now. soul stealer and black horror are similar against heavily armoured models, which are usually T4 and often S4. so it's basically both a 1/3 chance of a kill, which isn't necessarily too bad. black horror is awesome against blocks of infantry. i really like bladewind, but 3d6 attacks ends up causing pretty few kills once you roll to hit and to wound, then saves, even with WS4. of course it's a question of targeting the right type of unit.

as a side note, i'd have liked to have seen rxbows have no penalty for multiple shots, and no AP, possible 18" range. not for them to be like crossbows with multi shot, i don't think their being a high ST would be warranted at all. i think that would have been the most appropriate rules for them considering that they are supposed be these light mini-machine guns that you can move while firing without effort. but my dreams didn't come true, waaa.


what will be the best equip for a master on manticore? is worthy a BSB with banner of slaughter or may be too fragile?

if you mean putting a BSB with the standard of slaughter on a manticore, i don't think that's a good idea. BSBs are for staying around the centre of the board with your blocks of infantry. standard of slaughter isn't great either, better just to equip him for combat.

Dooks Dizzo
22-12-2008, 15:32
-Shades: I have little experience with these guys. The fullfil many roles that Harpies do but cost much more. They still have some token shooting(Dissapointing, was hoping for a special rule or something to make them elite) but aside from this they are basic skirmishers. 1 unit won't hurt but the DE special choices can get crowded because: I must have missed this...

I think Shades can be an excellent unit and I wouldn't call their shooting token. A big block of them is taking something like 30 shots and with BS5 they'll hit on 3's if standing still and 4's if moving.

With Great Weapons and WS5 they are damn decent on the charge as well. I would never use them like Harpies (because harpies are much cheaper), rather scout them in and blast the heck out of someone with them.

==Me==
22-12-2008, 15:49
I'm going to respectfully disagree re: Corsairs vs. Spearmen and COK vs. CoC

Corsairs and spearmen do not fulfill the same role, you may as well compare Bolt Throwers and the Cauldron of Blood. Spears are there for cheap SCR and as a magic battery for your Sacrificial Dagger. Corsairs are for generating CR through kills. 10 point infantry is not something I recommend bulking up on for rank bonus, that might be the Skaven player in ==Me== crying out but I just don't see the point in wasting their attacks. I run 12 or 18 Corsairs with the Sea Serpent Standard. They perform as well as Witch Elves sans poison, plus they have superior armor and the slavers rule. They shred infantry and with some support they can do a number against most enemies. Working with spearmen they get the benefit of ranks and can use their slavers rule to run enemies down. With a Cauldron they dish out 3 KB attacks each, or 4 swings, or get a ward. With an assassin or character they can rip up heavily armored foes or enemy characters. With Lokhir they rack up the VPs like crazy. Like the rest of the army (besides Shades, BG, and Hydras :p)
you can't look at things in a vacuum. Corsairs and spearmen complement each other very well, so they really shouldn't be competing.

Chariots are slow and get blown away by S7 attacks. COKs can march, get access to magic banner and can carry the Ring of Hotek. If you have the choice of 2 Chariots vs 5 COKs tricked out I would make the pick based on the rest of the army. A slower, infantry based, force would benefit more from chariots to support their foot blocks. A cavalry heavy army with monsters and the like can use the speed and power of the Knights. Plus, Knights don't suck up as many special slots so you can include stuff like Shades and Black Guard.

Draconian77
22-12-2008, 19:56
black guard > executioners

Whilst it's quite true that BG render Executioners pointless I disagree with your proposed changes. 2A models should be extremely rare in my opinion. Some of the most broken units in the game are broken because they can hit things with full SCR and still win by massive margins. No tactics are required with units like this and it becomes a game of "does your opponent" have a counter. If they don't very likely they will lose chunks of their army. Its one of the things that makes block infantry so unappealing, as they are a counter for little.

My proposed changes for Executioners is to give them KB on 5+, access to a 50pts banner and to frop their cost by 1pt.

i kind of preferred the lifetaker rules in the previous ed. book with the re-rolls to wound. now it has an extra shot instead. the effect is pretty similar, though.

2 x 5/6 x 3/4 (T3) = 1.24999 wounds
3 x 5/6 x 1/2 (T3) = 1.25 wounds

2 x 5/6 x 5/9 (T4) = 0.93
3 x 5/6 x 1/3 (T4) = 0.83

so, for the same price, lifetaker has become worse the higher the toughness of the target, but has the chance to cause more wounds because of its greater number of shots.

Your second Liftaker formula should read 3 x 5/6 x 1/2 shouldn't it? Also it now incurs a -1 save modifier. Overall much more useful than the old one.

draco: how is your experince with your characters on pegasii?

I'm loving them. I find that magic heavy armies and shooting heavy armies could really pose problems for Druchii(nay, any elven) armies in the past so I normally included at least one Noble mounter peg rider, however with the new book you can have a solid batteline without requiring characters to babysit units(Or you can buy Assassins which don't use up L+H choices, very nice). 2 units gives you a lot of redundancy, you will almost always get one in to whatever your trying to nullify.

Against infantry heavy forces you can combine their charges to the flanks or rears of enemy units(Normally breaking them) or you can use them as support for your blocks of infantry. Armed with Caledors bane or the Potion of Strength they can break enemy chariots apart(They really hurt Tomb Kings). Not to mention that as flying models they can skirt around terrain, chase down fleeing enemies, etc, etc.

one thing i've noticed about the army book is that all the magic items are really weirdly priced.

I recomend you go to the rule development forum and check out my Quick Fix thread. It's how my most regular opponent and I are playing some of the new army books.

soul stealer and black horror are similar against heavily armoured models, which are usually T4 and often S4. so it's basically both a 1/3 chance of a kill, which isn't necessarily too bad.

Soul Stealer gives a 1/6 chance of killing against T4 and is rarely useful.
Black Horror is still excellent.
Doombolt is nice, although range 24" would have been nice.
Bladewind is a farce of a spell. Its actually inferior to 2D6 S4 against Ws4 or better opponents but its casting value is the same... It does automatically target warmachine crew though, which can be useful. But if your using Dark Pegasii, Dark Riders and Harpies war machines aren't really an issue.

as a side note, i'd have liked to have seen rxbows have no penalty for multiple shots, and no AP, possible 18" range.

RxB are quite good for their points against some units and horrendous for their points against others, unlike Handgunners which are pretty much great against everything. I would have liked the option to use multi-shot but fundamentally still be armed with a standard crossbow.



@Dooks Dizzo: Shades are ok, and their shooting is very much token in my experience. Or at least not comparable to RxBmen.

For example, 5 Shades and 8 RxBmen.

Shades: 10 Shots(Short range), hitting on 3's = 6.66 hits
RxBmen: 16 shots(Short range), hitting on 4's = 8 hits

Shades:(Short Range, Moving) = 5 hits
RxBmen:(Short Range, Moving) = 5.33 hits

Shades(LR, Moving) = 3.33 hits
RxBmen:(LR, Moving) = 2.6ish hits

Now whilst I agree that Shades are better for march blocking and war machine hunting, etc it doesn't really take away from the fact that S3 shooting with multi shot weapons on units that nearly always move will not achieve much. Especially against anything with T4 or a high save.

@==Me==

Corsairs have very limited uses, things like 2x6 Corsairs are still very pricey, their hitting power is negligible, their survivability is low and saying that "with the Cauldren" or "with Lokhir/an Assassin" they are good is missing the point. Most units in the DE book are excellent with support, but either you need units which cost less to give you points to spend on suport or you spend points on units which require no support allowing you to concentrate your support elsewhere.

CoC can be blown apart by S7 hits, but at range thats really only Cannons(Great, their not shooting at my GK or Hydras...) and if its comabt well then its up to the player to avoid such threats. On the other hand CoC's are virtually immune to S4 attacks and are very durable against S5 attacks. These much more common S values can really impair CoK's, especially if they are armour piercing. Again, 2 CoC's gives you a little redundancy when it comes to Stupidity tests.

I agree that CoC's are better with infantry based forces and thats my preferred type of list, I always support my monster heavy forces with heavy shooting rather than more combat. I find CoC's are quite good at protecting your firebase. (Ok, nothing in fantasy should be called a firebase, but you get my point)

As an interesting side note I think the Potion of Strength may boost the Strength of any Monstrous Mount your character happens to be riding. Someone may need to check up on that.

darkened sun
23-12-2008, 01:01
I'm going to respectfully disagree re: Corsairs vs. Spearmen and COK vs. CoC

Corsairs and spearmen do not fulfill the same role, you may as well compare Bolt Throwers and the Cauldron of Blood. Spears are there for cheap SCR and as a magic battery for your Sacrificial Dagger. Corsairs are for generating CR through kills. 10 point infantry is not something I recommend bulking up on for rank bonus, that might be the Skaven player in ==Me== crying out but I just don't see the point in wasting their attacks. I run 12 or 18 Corsairs with the Sea Serpent Standard. They perform as well as Witch Elves sans poison, plus they have superior armor and the slavers rule. They shred infantry and with some support they can do a number against most enemies. Working with spearmen they get the benefit of ranks and can use their slavers rule to run enemies down. With a Cauldron they dish out 3 KB attacks each, or 4 swings, or get a ward. With an assassin or character they can rip up heavily armored foes or enemy characters. With Lokhir they rack up the VPs like crazy. Like the rest of the army (besides Shades, BG, and Hydras :p)
you can't look at things in a vacuum. Corsairs and spearmen complement each other very well, so they really shouldn't be competing.

i don't deny that spearmen and corsairs fulfill different roles. however, your argument seemed to revolve around charging a unit of corsairs AND a unit of spearmen, using the cauldron to boost them, against a single enemy unit of infantry. it really doesn't seem fair to make comparisons like that, that's like 600 points against one unsupported enemy unit- it seems like a really unrealistic scenario, and a complete waste of the spearmen to use them to generate the SCR that the corsairs lack. like i said, you might as well drop either the corsairs or spearmen in that case and take an assassin or chariot. corsairs and spearmen do seem to complement each other, but the main gist of what i was saying in my previous post was that corsairs were excessively priced and that it would be better not to take them if you are designing a cost-effective army, i.e. an optimal/competitive army, and go for other options instead.

@ draco: i agree about what you said, but what i was trying to get at was that swordmasters are already 2A, so why are execs only 1? either swordmasters should be 1A or execs should be 2A. the blatant inconsistencies of the army books and in pricing are what irritate me more than anything else. like high elves having having a different army organisation chart with 6 specials.

corrected the lifetaker thing, it's alot better now in the current army book.

i'm more or less set on trying out 2 peggies in my standard list. i already have one because i have the morathi model but never glued her on specifically in case i wanted to mount another character on it. so i just need one more...

yeah, so soul stealer is even worse than i said it was. its short range seems make its uses really limited.

in your shade vs. crossbowmen comparison, you might want to consider that the shades will tend to be shooting against targets in short range, whereas the crossbowmen in long range, alot of the time anyway. at least insofar as the best targets for the shades will be whatever is within 12" of them in that they are getting much better odds to hit. i think shades a great unit with their BS5 and 2 hand weapons. they are only redundant if you are taking alot of flyers such as harpies and characters on pegasii.

to sum rxbows up, i feel that they are exceedingly good at close range, but terrible at long range or whenever there are too many modifiers, and moving and shooting is often one of them (i.e. dark riders, who often tend to be 5s to hit). 5s are never good odds to hit, but 4s or less (shades) are great. and the AP of rxbows is awesome, makes them worth taking on the right units.

Elves All The Way
23-12-2008, 01:29
just a quick question, should u put shields on spearmen? after all their main role (or most people use them this way) is simply for the sacrificial dagger, or to hold up units until something else can flank like CoKs. So should they have a shield for that extra 1pt (keeping in mind for a whole unit thats an extra 25 or 30pts) for only an overall 5+save?
Also does anyone use great wepons on shades? Sure thats str5 but they'll attack last unless they charge so after one round of combat and with only light armour they'll drop dead like flies. where as if you have two hand weapons they attack first then the enemay fights back, then in the next round of combat they'll probably attack first again so basically a unit of 5 will probably get 20 attacks str3 attacks before they die or 5 str5 attacks before they die. i don't think i explained it very well but does anyone see my point?

darkened sun
23-12-2008, 01:49
if you are planning on sacrificing them, buying shields is just madness as you are buying those shields and spending those points for nothing and then throwing them away.

the great weapons on shades are because of the dogs of war mengil manhide's manflayer unit... that's the reason the option is there. IMHO the additional hand weapon is a no-brainer.

==Me==
23-12-2008, 04:18
Shields are a cheap upgrade and boost their survivability quite a bit, but if you're sacrificing them I wouldn't bother.

GWs on Shades are awesome. WS5, Hatred and S5 are amazing and when charging war machine crews, other skirmishers and the like and you won't have to worry about a second round.

Regarding Corsairs, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Corsairs are a fundamental element of ==My== army, but I guess they aren't for everyone.

backslide
23-12-2008, 05:12
corsairs, admid I have had few games with DE as of yet but the models rock totally, frenzyed, good protection VS shooting, lots of attacks with hate, forms my center that the rest of my army rotates around, has yet to let me down

shades, great just great never bothered with scouts before, these guys rock, great weapons totally ws5 and hate they do damage

Draconian77
23-12-2008, 12:46
Regarding Corsairs, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Corsairs are a fundamental element of ==My== army, but I guess they aren't for everyone.


That's what makes Warhammer interesting, it would be quite boring if everyone had the same thoughts about the book, that would be like everyone supporting the same soccar team...bleh...

Shields on DE Spearmen are really so cheap I see no reason not to buy them.
Even if you plan on sacrificing them if you do get charged then thats a lot of wounds saved for only a few points(15-20 is the norm for sacrifice blocks, right? I don't use the dagger so I'm really not sure) which means you 160+pt sorceress is a lot less likely to run away!

If its a toss up between Great Weapons or AHW's for your Shades always plump for GW's, its much more useful to kill what you hit than hit and not kill.
Or something like that anyway...

As an aside, apparently by RAW the Potion of Strength applies to the characters Mounstrous Mount. Bear in mind that this is clearly against the intent of the rules and its enforcement will be frowned upon by the majority of players.

Dooks Dizzo
23-12-2008, 18:08
For the shades I was thinking that it might be worthwhile to go all out.

Go with a full 15 of them with Great Weapons and add an assassin. Without the Assassin they're 288 points but that is a whole lot of highly accurate shooting and some serious pain on the charge.

The assassin is a pricy way to get some extra combat res in there since no banner or ranks or anything.

stonehorse
23-12-2008, 19:53
Are Mengil Manhides Manflayers now obsolete?

I'm thinking of using them as a unit of Shades with Great Weapons, Mengil as a blood Shade, and the standard Bearer as BSB... I may buy 2 boxes and convert one of the standard bearers into a Cold One mounted BSB.

Just not to sure of what to do to the Musicians, any thoughts?

backslide
23-12-2008, 21:54
well I think you should alwaysbuy thm shields, sacrifice blocks esp, as if you don't get them shields they know they are going to be sacrificed!

Hulkster
25-12-2008, 05:47
Are Mengil Manhides Manflayers now obsolete?

I'm thinking of using them as a unit of Shades with Great Weapons, Mengil as a blood Shade, and the standard Bearer as BSB... I may buy 2 boxes and convert one of the standard bearers into a Cold One mounted BSB.

Just not to sure of what to do to the Musicians, any thoughts?

I am going to do the same thing, as I use shades in units around seven, it isnt really a problem.

The only thing I can think of in regards to the musican is using him as a musician in a unit of RXB. Thats it im afraid, short of some serious conversion work.

Kalandros
25-12-2008, 06:06
... or remove the horn and place a warrior hand (fist closed) for that emo 'CURSE YOU' pose.

Frankly
25-12-2008, 07:57
For the shades I was thinking that it might be worthwhile to go all out.

Go with a full 15 of them with Great Weapons and add an assassin. Without the Assassin they're 288 points but that is a whole lot of highly accurate shooting and some serious pain on the charge.

The assassin is a pricy way to get some extra combat res in there since no banner or ranks or anything.


I thought the same thing, but really the numbers don't add up to be honest.

If you take 15 shades with G.Weapons then not all of them will get into HtoH on the charge, leaving alot of models as dead weight and point sinks.

For pure shooting out-put it'll be better to spend all those points of X.Bow men and get ALOT of average dice than half as much semi-good dice imho.

At the moment I'm running 2 x 7 shades with G.W.s and an assassin. To be honest the assassin will usually split up from the unit early and double my mobile threats, 7 shades with hatred and G.W.s hitting the flanks of units can put out enough damage to make themselves effective in combat.

Is anyone else playing a light cavalry DE list?

At the moment I'm playing an list with:

6 x 5 dark riders

2 x 7 shades with asassins

5 x 5 harpies

Lord, hydra blade + potion of strength, steed

BSB, hydra banner + lance, steed

I'm still working on my magic defence, I'm not sure on going to the ring of hotek of a commander on a steed or 2 x lvl2 mages.

I've had only 5 games with the list and I have to say the all though its fragile its a really fun way to play DE. Lots of movement and averagely good in the shooting phase lets me control the flanks and pick and choice combat.

Assassins out of shade units are really worth while imho, at first I thought it might be to fragile for its points cost, but with harpies pretty much being in the list as mobile terrain, assassins/shades become quite hard to target with ranged attacks and so are more easier to move around the table top than I first thought they'd be.

For me at least, harpies are the real champions in a list, their ability to be everywhere and do so much in the way of control and support is nothing less than amazing. Flyers as a core unit is just crazy.

Anyways, just thought I'd drop by the Druchii thread and post my 2 cents:D. I'm still looking foe some strong lord/hero hitty combo's if anyone has any, thanks.

Frankly

Elves All The Way
25-12-2008, 09:46
heros and lords, which ones to choose. So far i have the dark elf battalion and i'm thinking of getting lokheir as my general in the unit of 20 corsairs and usuing it as the centre of my army, should i stick with that or should i use a normal master?. and for later references which lords should i use? and is Kouran and tullis worth the points?

Draconian77
25-12-2008, 11:47
I don't like Kouran or Tullaris(or whatever his name is) as I feel spending all those points on a model that could get his head kicked in by a horse is just asking for trouble.

As an aside placing Kouran in a unit of Blackguard does something bad... Can't remember off the top of my head but something doesn't click between the "character" and "unbreakable" rules.

Lokhir is pretty good and the model is excellent(Well, I like it alot)

The thing about Lokhir is that S4 attacks on a hero tend to be ok but not great, its a light-infantry killer and thats not what you need your heroes for. You could slap on the Banner of Murder to give him some more hitting power.

Normal masters are pretty decent for their points though.

==Me==
25-12-2008, 16:00
Lokhir is all about mowing down infantry and racking up double VPs for running them down. He's also got Terror, Regen for protection, and can even jump around to protect other characters. A great Hero.

Tullaris and Kouran are simply too expensive for a T3 1W elf that can be sniped out so easily.

Elves All The Way
26-12-2008, 04:42
, and can even jump around to protect other characters..

yea i don't really understand how you would use that rule, can someone explain?

GrogsnotPowwabomba
26-12-2008, 05:21
I would just go to Druchii.net, as its a whole site dedicated to Dark Elf players, many of whom are very experienced with the army.

==Me==
26-12-2008, 05:48
yea i don't really understand how you would use that rule, can someone explain?

He can swap places with a model in combat, so if there's an enemy character looking to go after your Sorc or something, you swap them out to keep her alive while Lokhir has his regen to stay safe.

Elves All The Way
27-12-2008, 05:56
yea but it says he swaps with a model in the same unit before challenges are issued, can't the guy just challenge the sorceress after he made the leap

==Me==
27-12-2008, 08:02
You can only challenge models in BtB, so move the Sorc out of BtB and she's fine.

Elves All The Way
27-12-2008, 08:14
ohhhhhhhhhh thanks that clears thing up heaps. well i know i ask a lot of questions but what do you think about a simple Master with pendant of Kaelth and soulrender roaming around by himself targeting other lone character or even mosters, cause with the pendant he'll be protected against bolt thowers, high str monsters and lords (namely chaos lords) and his normal armour save will be 1+ against low str attacks, is it plausible? n how do beast masters scourge work, if it's a hand weapon can u get the +1 attack bonous if you have another hand weapon and if you do are all of the attacks made by the charcter armour peicing?

Fenix_
27-12-2008, 09:02
ohhhhhhhhhh thanks that clears thing up heaps. well i know i ask a lot of questions but what do you think about a simple Master with pendant of Kaelth and soulrender roaming around by himself targeting other lone character or even mosters, cause with the pendant he'll be protected against bolt thowers, high str monsters and lords (namely chaos lords) and his normal armour save will be 1+ against low str attacks, is it plausible?

a mounted BSB with the pendant and a magic weapon (soulrender, sword of might) but you need the BSB for cancelling the outnumber bonus of monsters (so if you cause no wounds, the monster wont win combat and auto break the master)



n how do beast masters scourge work, if it's a hand weapon can u get the +1 attack bonous if you have another hand weapon and if you do are all of the attacks made by the charcter armour peicing?

magic weapons dont give the +1A for having two hand weapons

Intrepid Adventurer
28-12-2008, 11:34
Wait, I have to put great weapons on my scouts? Well that would never have occured to me. You see, I'm glad I read this now, because I'm starting out with Druchii and I got two boxes of Corsairs (the models rock!) and I've got enough Wood- and High Elves bits to create a decent amount of shades.

Problem is, I never know what to do with scouts. I always took a unit of Shadow Warriors in my HE list, because I had the models. Now I'm reading I can have shades with GWs. Should I just use them as flankers then? Striking last does seem kinda deadly for these lightly armoured dudes. And can they still have their handbows?

So does anyone use more than one unit of Corsairs? I've got enough now to make a unit of 20 (or 18, which I read is preferred), but I wouldn't mind getting more. Or should I just go with warriors?

Thanks for this tactica thread guys, it really is a great help!

Frankly
28-12-2008, 13:05
I've been finding with my scouts, that they're real work horses and for a 18pt model that's lightly armored you need them to work pretty hard to get a return on their points, weather its as a control unit, to create threats or to inflect damage. The good thing about Spades(especially with GWs) is that they can do all of this, they perform well in every phase of your turn( besides the magic phase), while helping to control your opponents movement and sometimes shooting phases.

I've found that targeting light cavalry and/or shooting units like archers and hand-gunners(for example) with spades is the best and most cost effective use of their low strength but high BS ranged weapons, these targets are easy kills for shades imho. Killing enemy shooty and fast units also shuts down support and control options for your opponent while opening up spaces and creating options for your support units.

I've found in the movement phase its best NOT to use Spades JUST as march blockers, they're to costly a unit to be used to such a way, if a side benefit of moving the unit will be to block a march move on an enemy unit, then thats fine, but its better to get them into an aggressive position where they can effectively shoot and/or threaten to charge form is a far better option. Let your harpies which are cheaper march blocking and LOS blocking unit, they're also easier to redeploy, less of a points sink and don't need position for ranked weapons.

In combat, spades + assassin and easily take on a fighting rank of even a elite rank and file unit and do enough damage to restrict heavy return casualties. Rerollable to hit and str5 + assassin has taken out major parts of the enemy fighting rank for me constantly in combat which makes them a real CR builder in combat. In the context of my armylist that likes to flank and rear charge, its important that I get enough CR to break units and run them down.

All and all, I'm enjoying spades a lot, as I first thought that they'd be a costly support unit, a good multi-task unit, but not exceedingly great unit at any phase of the game at all, but to my surprise they're actually very good and most every task you throw at them, well worth their points cost imho.

==Me==
28-12-2008, 13:09
Yep, Shades with great weapons and crossbows are extremely versatile. They can do a lot of damage with WS5, Hatred, and S5 so I use them for hunting war machines, missile troops, other skirmishers, and flanking or rear charging if necessary.

Corsairs are great for tearing up enemy infantry, so more is always a good thing. I run 18 with the Sea Serpent Standard and 12 with handbows for protecting flanks and putting out a ton of shots.

Oathwarden
28-12-2008, 15:12
I don't run the sea serpent banner in my melee corsairs(not a big fan of frenzy) I throw the banner of murder in to give them a better shot of wounding heavier armor.

My GW shades haven't let me down yet, but I have run the XHW from time to time against VC and TK when that extra attack helps clearout ranks of zombies and skeles when I know I'm going to have to have them take on blocks of infantry when its a wall of shambling flesh and bones.

Frankly
28-12-2008, 15:35
.... other skirmishers, and flanking or rear charging if necessary.

Corsairs are great for tearing up enemy infantry, so more is always a good thing. I run 18 with the Sea Serpent Standard and 12 with handbows for protecting flanks and putting out a ton of shots.


Skirmisher killing is a huge boon for shades they're perfect for dealing with shadow warriors and especially skinks.

I watched a player with pretty much a core unit armylist murder 2 opponents(one was a hot so bad DoC list, one a hordish O&Gs list)) using corsairs as his main assault units. It was an interesting list with alot of bait and flee tactics using harpies and dark riders. Still Corsairs on the charge are just about cheap enough to next atleast 18 in a unit giving him 11 attacks plus a hero, which was racking up a good amount of CRs + his static CR was winning him combat.

To be honest I was leaning towards spearmen rank and file units after I'd finished off my all cavalry list, but now I'm thinking of going Corairs for that niche option of dealing damage to core rank and file units, I like playing DE on the charge or on the counter charge and spearmen are more of a all round defensive unit. Anyways I think they're a better unit than people give them credit for, I'm hoping to see more of them on the table on in the future.

backslide
29-12-2008, 09:34
spears are a great rank and file cheap unit not just there for the dgger honest!

chariots haven't come up much as of yet, I just got 3 but very much looking forward to using them for the points they hit pretty dam hard I'm use to HE chariots, these are only 15 points more! are now one of the hardest chariots in the game to kill now days

stonehorse
29-12-2008, 10:05
Chariots are very good, they got a lot of boosts in the latest book, not just the hatred, but the extra Leadership and Strength of the crew. Plus the crew now come equipped with Repeater Crossbows as standard and the whole thing is cheaper! Don't think many units will be able to survive two of them smashing into their front, let alone their flanks or rear.

Also we can give our Dreadlords and Masters Chariots and the chariot doesn't come from the Special section... meaning we can have 8 chariots in 2,000pts!

Our Chariots are one of the best in the game, Think Tomb King chariots are better due to being fast Cavalry.

Does anyone else think we may be getting a new Chariot model? The current ones don't fit in with the new Cold One look.

Freeman
29-12-2008, 14:31
Do you know how can I get some decent magic defense at 1500 points without getting any sorceress at all? I'm thinking about a list more or less like these:

- Master, black pegasus, enchanted shield, pendant of Khaeleth

- Assassin, manbane, rending stars

- Assassin, touch of death, black Lotus, rune of khaine

- 20 Warriors, full command

- 5 Dark riders, musician

- 5 Harpies

- 1 Cold one chariot

- 10 Black Guard, full command, Hag Graef banner

- 5 Shades

- War Hydra

All advice will be appreciated

==Me==
29-12-2008, 15:18
Good magic defense would be the Ring of Hotek, Seal of Ghrond, and some Null Talismans. They won't work as well against passive spells or invocation, but any magic missiles will be no problem. Besides, all the points you saved from buying casters gives you more units to kill the enemy. Magic isn't so hot when there's nobody to protect the casters.

For your list, I'd put the Master in with the Black Guard and bulk them out to 12 or so. Great Weapons for the Shades would also help.

stonehorse
29-12-2008, 15:18
Ring of Hotek on the unit Champion in the Black Guard, keep all your units within 12" of the Champion.

bert n ernie
29-12-2008, 15:37
Freeman, the difficulty with giving magic defence to your list is that you only have one model who can take magic items, which is where the large proportion of magic defence comes from.
I don't know if the Black Guard champions are allowed to take magic items(don't have the book on me), but if they can pop a null stone on the unit do so.
Sadly you don't have any other units which can take null stones.
You need to put the ring of hotek on your master.
Personally I would find a way of either taking a unit or two more which can take magic items, or take a master who can take null stones. Perhaps others would have better suggestions.

I had my own questions for everyone here:
Are Masters on Chariots worth it? Would I be better just taking a chariot and putting the master somewhere else? What would I equip him with?

EDIT: I've really appreciated all the advise so far. I'm Irish man number three for this thread it seems.

Dooks Dizzo
29-12-2008, 16:17
BG champs and Cold One Champs can take 25 points of magic items, to include the Ring of Hotek.

Genrazn
29-12-2008, 16:37
Why would you though. 5+ AS and 1 wound champ. Not the most ideal person. I would give him 1+ Armour save or some other fun magic weapon.

stonehorse
29-12-2008, 16:43
I would, it frees up the Dreadlords magic items, and the Dreadlord will be accepting any challanges and no doubt survive from due to the great magic items they can take.

The Champion will be quite safe as the unit has the Banner of Har Greaf so will have enough attacks to kill the front rank of the enemy unit.

It does work quite well.

==Me==
30-12-2008, 02:26
Yep, the Ring is fairly safe on those unit champions.

With regards to Masters on chariots, I think it can work. It frees up Special slots (for more chariots :p) and gives your Master a suitably powerful mount. Gear him up with the Ring of Nightmares and a suitably killy weapon and you have a pretty safe ride. Stupidity and slowness are your only problems.

Scythe
30-12-2008, 09:59
I would, it frees up the Dreadlords magic items, and the Dreadlord will be accepting any challanges and no doubt survive from due to the great magic items they can take.

The Champion will be quite safe as the unit has the Banner of Har Greaf so will have enough attacks to kill the front rank of the enemy unit.

It does work quite well.

Not to mention that once you get into combat, magic protection becomes less of an issue. The only problem I see would be against Empire, with their Hochland rifles, but then, you can probably manage with basic magic defense against those armies.

That said, I do prefer giving my black guard champion the Crimson Death though. A couple of S6 attacks greatly aid black guard against those more heavily armored troops they will encounter sooner or later.

Norngahl
30-12-2008, 12:33
Hi there!

I just wanted to post my current Armylist. Itīs without any limits, 2000 Points, and in my Opinion itīs the best Army list for Dark Elves beside the usual magic heavy hit and run and the monster list, as it combines many powefull units and items of the ne DE. Here we go.

Dreadlord, Pendant of Kaeleth, Soulrender, Armor of Darkness 215 (-> BG)
Death Hag, Cauldron of Blood, BSB 225
Sorcress, Level 2, Sacrificial Dagger, Scroll 185 (-> Warriors)
Sorcress, Level 2, Starlightcloak, Scroll 185
15 Warriors with Shields, Musican 110
17 Black Guards, Command, Banner of Hag Graef, Ring of Hotek/ Crimson Death 316 (which choice depends on the enemy)
18 Executioners, Command 246
2 War Hydras 350
5 Dark Riders 85
5 Dark Riders 85
2002

Had great success with this army composition. First, the Executioners were a toy for me. But then I recognized, how good they are. Next to the BG they form an awesome centre for your army, behind them the cauldron. With +1 attack from the cauldron, they have two attacks. Remeber that they have a handweapon as well, so with strengh 4, 2 attacks, and killingblow, they are equal to black guard, except that they donīt have ASF. I strongly recommend this cauldron+ BG +Exe composition, it rocks. Last night I fought Dwarfs (fortress with Cannons and so on, typical stand an shoot dwarfs), High Elves and Wood Elves with this List, a few days before bretonians and undead.

The point is- you have 4 very hart hitting and attractive units in this list. BG, Exe and 2 Hydras. You canīt kill them all. If the enemy concentrates to Kill BG than just swap the lord into the exe, remeber, they are stubborn and have the BSB in their back. Give the BG the 5+ Wardsave if you have to run against dwarfs. On the one hand they have more protection to get them into combat, on the other hand most players will try to kill them because they know how awesome the BG is (use the Crimson death on BG). If 2 of the 4 hart hitting units arrive, they will eat up the other army. Despite I couldnīt use my magic, I won two times with a massacre. Mainly due to the Lord with the executioners (enemy shot down BG), and the flaming attack of the hydra (quite evil, strengh -2 on AS means most times 6+ to survive, often 12 models were hit, 9 wounded, 7 dead.)

Against High Evles I got one decent tip for you- put the Lord into BG and protect the BG as good as possible. The BG have higher ini than everything except the phoenixguard, but there goes the Lord with higher ini. As well, donīt put the hydra into combat if not necessary. The strengh 5 plate works wonders against light armored HE, and they canīt use their ASF. The Elite Units on foot have good strengh and ASF. If you are unlucky, they hydra may die. Donīt risk it, better use the plate. If you have to sacrifice a Hydra to the Bolt throwers, so that the BG can get into combat, then do it. Once the BG is in CC, throw the +1 attack on it. They will simply kill everything on their way. Take the Ring of Hotek on the BG. The HE have a lot of support spells as well. If they try to support their units, they often suffer from the ring. Donīt forget about eternal hatred. Rerolling at any time is godlike. Use your magic to kill or hold up the bowmen and the bolt throwers. Redirect with Dark Riders or start combined charges. HE are light targets, itīs easy to break them due to combat resolutiion, as their units are expensive and the wonīt have much passive boni.

My game against wood elves, well it was a fast game, as most of his units failed terror tests. Except this, use magic to kill them. Again they are light targets, and their troops suffer easy to our damage-magic. As well I recommend the hydra with flame attacks. Just nice against them. You will suffer from their shooting, but donīt care, if you can manage it to put them close together so they canīt run away anymore, you will kill them even with small units. Donīt be to shy to sacrifice your men, even BG, and leave the 5+ WS for them at home to give 5 charging DR the additional +1 attack. 10 hatred attacks with strengh 4, and 5 hatred attacks with strengh 3 are enough to break a WE unit.

Against Undead, take the damn ring and wath the higher spells becoming miscasts^^ If he has a big black knights unit deployed on the flank, than put the Executioners on this flank, but near to the centre (put the Executioners on this side on the centre. Put nothing else on this side, so that the exe are the only unit he can charge. So get the main centre forwards, to be out of sight against the Black Knights. Donīt be afraid of the vampire über lord or the drakenhof banner. Nullify the banner through the hydras, their flaming attacks ignore the 225 points upgrade of the BSB with banner. As well as dwarfs, the grave guard gets raped, as their armor is reduced to 6+ (none if they have 2handed weapons) and you mainly get 12 Models under the plate. 24 models from to hydras means, well, 13 dead models. Do this 2 times, and all of the enemies magic will be soaked up to heal this unit. On this time, the rest of the army is easily defeated, as the lack magic support. If the Black Knights go to charge the executioners, give them the 5+ WS. Due to BSB and stubborn, they will hold the BK up. On the second turn, give them +1 attacks. Belive me, if there is no uber luck on dices, they will kill the BG this round, or the next. Belive in the Power of combat resolution. 5 DR charged in the front of a Skeleton unit and 5 DR in the Back or the flank, together with hatred, often lets 20 skeletons crumble or be reduced to a few ones. What I wanted to say- block Black Knights with Executioners and Cauldron support, flame the Grave Guard+ General to death with the hydras, watch the whole magic support going into resecurrecting the Grave Guard, and on this point of time, roll up the flanks as the little fish units like skeletons suffer magic support. To wipe blocks out, do it trough combat resolution. Charge with 2 or more units the unit you want to wipe out and negate their passive boni like ranks. You can also try to capture 2 units with the Black Guard, charging 2 units on this way that the vampire lord isnīt in base contact with the unit and the roll the army up with the hydra team. It works. Stubborn with BSB on 2 big, hart hitting blocks, thats something that breaks most of enemies units.

Against Bretonia, donīt worry. Give the BG the Crimson death. The Crentre is hold by BG and Executioners, behind them the cauldron. Put a DR unit beside them. Put both Hydras together as a team, it depends on the battlefield (woods etc) where to deploy. Just take care that They are flexible and their movement isnīt in trouble. They need woods or something else to avoid knight carges. Its a bit difficult, because knights can charge 16 inches and you need to hide from their line of sight. Concentrate you whole magic on 1 (!) unit of knights, mainly grail knights. They hit very hart in charge, and can challenge your Lord. You wonīt win the combat round when the knights charge. Just sell your lifes as expensive as possible and hold the ground. In the second round of combat they donīt have their lance and the formation anymore. At this point of time, charge with the hydras into the flanks and go to the knights kept in the centre.



Of course, that are just a few tips and tricks. The strengh of the list is a lot of Power Dices with 2 sorcresses (sacrifice these spearman for every spell, donīt take care of too much losses, they are running Powerdices!), you got a nearly unbreakable centre of hart hitting troops (BG with Lord is ASF an generally cuts everything except lance formation knights or Chaos Knights with General totally to pieces), 2 smal units of DR to redirect and break army formation (for example blood knights or to block a charge of a hart hitting infantery unit, as the DR would flee and his unit would stand with the flank to your troops), a very flexible cauldron (5+ ward save is ideal aigainst shooty armies or as a mobile hydra banner, on this army the +1 attacks is ALWAYS better than KB [if you do not belive me do mathhammer])and 2 hydras.

Last tips for the Hyrdra. The Hydra work best as a tag team against heavy armored and fast armies, such as bretonia or other heavy cavallery lists. They work better on their own with a few inch of distance between each, to flame big and hart blocks and skirmishers. The Hide and Seek tactic ist most times better for the whole army tactic than just running directly into CC with them.


Edit: Correctet, Stonehorse ;)

stonehorse
30-12-2008, 13:20
Just remember that only models with the Khainite special rule can join Khainite units, so your Dreadlord, and Masters can not join the unit. So your example against the dwarfs is wrong.

==Me==
30-12-2008, 13:53
Why are the spears and DRs so mini-mxed? If you have the dagger you need 25 warriors minimum, and DRs are awesome with their crossbows and musicians.

When running the Cauldron I like Executioners in smaller units (6-7 w/ musician). They draw less attention, can move around more easily, and thanks to the Cauldron they are stubborn and can hold enemies in place for a turn. They hit just as hard and end up a lot cheaper.

stonehorse
30-12-2008, 14:05
I run my Dark Riders as follows:

6, with Repeater Crossbows, herald, Musician. 153pts, that are very good at annoying the enemy and hunting down Warmachines, and lone characters... plus the standard bait and flee is always good. Never take a Standard Bearer in this type of unit; they are too fragile to carry around a 100 victory points for the enemy.

I also use the following unit:

10 dark Riders, Shields, Full Command. 215pts, these are dangerously fast, and can hit quite hard, when used with the above unit of Dark Riders this unit can easily get a flank charge on an enemy unit... where it will no doubt win the combat.

I almost cried tears of joy when I saw that Dark Riders can now be used as fast shock cavalry... backed up with hatred!

They haven't let me down yet.

Freeman
30-12-2008, 15:54
Thanks everyone for the advice, I'll give the ring to the BG champion, that will do against magic missles.

Scythe
31-12-2008, 05:41
I run my Dark Riders as follows:

6, with Repeater Crossbows, herald, Musician. 153pts, that are very good at annoying the enemy and hunting down Warmachines, and lone characters... plus the standard bait and flee is always good. Never take a Standard Bearer in this type of unit; they are too fragile to carry around a 100 victory points for the enemy.

I also use the following unit:

10 dark Riders, Shields, Full Command. 215pts, these are dangerously fast, and can hit quite hard, when used with the above unit of Dark Riders this unit can easily get a flank charge on an enemy unit... where it will no doubt win the combat.

I almost cried tears of joy when I saw that Dark Riders can now be used as fast shock cavalry... backed up with hatred!

They haven't let me down yet.

I have similar experience. A couple of S4/S3 attacks at decent WS with hatred are a lot more dangerous as they might look like. If you have a banner and a flank charge on a basic infantry unit, you only need to kill more as they do to win combat (assuming your +1 flank is cancelled by outnumbering). Even without a banner, you have pretty high odds of winning combat. I tend to use smaller units for this purpose though; usually 7-8 models max.

Norngahl
31-12-2008, 11:48
Why are the spears and DRs so mini-mxed? If you have the dagger you need 25 warriors minimum, and DRs are awesome with their crossbows and musicians.

When running the Cauldron I like Executioners in smaller units (6-7 w/ musician). They draw less attention, can move around more easily, and thanks to the Cauldron they are stubborn and can hold enemies in place for a turn. They hit just as hard and end up a lot cheaper.

Pretty simple. 25 Spearman with CSM cost 190 points. A level 2 mage with Dagger, Scroll and Level 2 cost 185. Together they would cost 375 points- more than a full equipped unit of Black Guard, just to increase the abilities of a level 2, that may only cast up to 3 spells per round. The Problem with 25 man is this- if you deploy 25 spearman you mainly want them to give you a decent +5 on the CR. If you kill your men through the dagger, you will soon lose -2. because 6 man means, you lose 1 CR for rank, as rankbonus is only given at 5 men per rank. The more powerfull the dagger is used (and it should be used because its just awesome) the more the 190 point spearman loose their only strengh- static combat resolution. Of course, if you got the choice between a 25 sacrificial bodyguard or just 15, its quite sure which to take. But in my list I donīt have the points, and as I sacrifice the unit to death (or lets say mainly to 5 or 6 men) without any doubts, theres no big difference between 5 or 15 spearman, as both die like flies against enemy units except snotlings, whre the 15 men might be useful. As I said, the 15 spearman are just runnig Powerdices for me. I donīt need them to win, but I need 3 cheap core units because the rest of my army is very expensive and a cheap infantery unit I can sacrifice. If the spearmen get in trouble, the sorcress just leaves them and runs away, while the spearman are used for redirecting.

Thats the second point, why donīt take Xbows on the DR? Simply because they are to expensive for what they do, and I want my DR for redirecting, and often I sacrifice them on redirecting so that the enemy has to move his whole charge movement and stands quite naked in front of my army. Remeber, when you put the DR 1" in front of a enemy cavallery (or infantery unit) and they flee after the enemy declared a charge on them, and got caught, then they are dead but the enemy has to move his full charge movement, which often means 16 inches. And 16 inches forwards (or sidewards for redirecting) is a pretty bad deal, as they stand in front of BG and executioners supportet by a cauldron. If you redirect enemies troops, just ask yourself- do you want them to run their whole movement twice (for infantery mainly 8-10, for cav 14-18 inches) while sacrificing the DR for this, or do you just need to let them run their ordinary movement to fullfill your plan. For example, units with frenzy, its enough to put the DR in chargin range, but you donīt have to sacrifice them, as they will be out of range and you are sure that the unit with frenzy has to charge them again :D
But why not taking Xbows? First, if I have to sacrifice the units or use them as charging CR support on flanks, they donīt need it. The DR in this army are not made for shoot and run, they are needed for redirecting and CC CR negating support. As well, 5 DR with XBows hit 3 times with 10 shots, against T3 wounding 1,5 times, against T4 1 time. 50 points for 2 DR units are, against most armies besides High Elves, just lost points, they wonīt earn their points back. Not against Bretonia, Chaos, Dwarfes Woodelves and other Skirmishers like Beastmen, not against Lizardman and so on. Xbows are (in my opinion) only great if you field them in masses (80+) or enemies like High Elves, as they have very expensive troops, but T3 and low armor save.

I tried the MSU tactic as well. 6-7 Executioners are just bad. Enemies shoot down these units, redirect the big blocks and combine charges on them. Even a few shots that decimate the Executioners to 4 men are enough. They are then one hit wonders for 1 CC round as support, but then, smashed to death. Belive me, it just donīt work. It would work, If you could have MULTIPLE small units. But you can only have 4 elite units on 2000 points, and 7 models are dead without doing anything if hit by heavy cav or units like chosen, so they canīt use their stubborn ability and are just easy points. Believe me, it looks nice on the paper, but in action, its just bad. I often thought about swapping the Executioners against a second BG. But then I recognized, that BG without ASF is most times worser than Executioners with cauldron. Executioners with Cauldron support are more flexible than BG. BG without any heros is only great against light or medium targets. But they will loose most of the time against a fat heavy cav unit, even with the Crimson Death, because the Champ is often targeted ;) Executioners with +1 attack from the Cauldron can be equal to BG with 2 attacks, strengh 4 and KB as a bonus, and they can hit with 2 strengh 6 attacks and KB. That makes the unit versatile. BG is the better aggressive allrounder when you put a Lord of Master with great weapon in it to negate this weakness, and it doesnīt need the cauldron as well. But Exevutioners with Cauldron Support cost the same like BG with master or lord, and are as flexible, and you donīt need to have an ASF banner and Lord as the unit can dish out medium or high strengh attacks.


greets

kyussinchains
31-12-2008, 12:29
Skirmisher killing is a huge boon for shades they're perfect for dealing with shadow warriors and especially skinks.

skinks maybe but I'd steer clear of charging shadow warriors with your shades (unless you're using extra hand weapons) they'll be striking before you, and rerolling misses, as this will reduce your return attacks, an equal number of shades and shadow warriors is no certain thing, you could very well lose the combat.

I'd also disagree with the shield of ghrond haters, it's every bit as good as the enchanted shield and for all intents and purposes provides +1 toughness as well, I'd only use it with a mounted character with a lance of course, but it usually finds a place on my pegasus noble, and has definitely saved his backside on several occasions.

I'm actually really impressed with the book on the whole, I've played 9 games (I dont play that often) and won 8, the one loss was a fairly close game against vampires where a few crucial failed fear tests probably lost it for me.

I've been running a 'take all comers' type list and am finding that taking a unit of RxB warriors, 7 shades, 2x5 DR and 2RBT gives a decent amount of shooting, which is quite easy to concentrate due to the maneuvreability of shades and DR and the range of the RBTs, dark elf shooting has also been improved hugely thanks to the armour piercing rule.

It seems that 5+ saves are very common, and reducing this to 6+ doubles the number of kills you get, that sweet spot has made a huge difference to DE shooting IMO

Anyway, most of what I could add to this tactica has been said already, keep it up guys!

Frankly
01-01-2009, 14:00
skinks maybe but I'd steer clear of charging shadow warriors with your shades (unless you're using extra hand weapons) they'll be striking before you, and rerolling misses, as this will reduce your return attacks, an equal number of shades and shadow warriors is no certain thing, you could very well lose the combat.





Charging????

Shoot them my friend.

If I were to charge it'll be when my assassin is still in my unit.

Frankly
01-01-2009, 14:20
I run my Dark Riders as follows:

6, with Repeater Crossbows, herald, Musician. 153pts, that are very good at annoying the enemy and hunting down Warmachines, and lone characters... plus the standard bait and flee is always good. Never take a Standard Bearer in this type of unit; they are too fragile to carry around a 100 victory points for the enemy.

I also use the following unit:

10 dark Riders, Shields, Full Command. 215pts, these are dangerously fast, and can hit quite hard, when used with the above unit of Dark Riders this unit can easily get a flank charge on an enemy unit... where it will no doubt win the combat.

I almost cried tears of joy when I saw that Dark Riders can now be used as fast shock cavalry... backed up with hatred!

They haven't let me down yet.

6 DRs with herald over the staple 5 DRs is what I'm thinking about now for my fast cavalry list. weighing up the options is harder than I first thought. Either to go 5 x 6 units or 6 x 5 units. Smaller units cost less, gives you one more option on the table, are easier to get through bottle-necks and get better LOS. But 6 DRs + heralds have that little bit more hitting power.

I've played 2 games with 9 x DRs with shields and FC + BSB + hydra banner. To be honest I think the unit is too costly. It did brake a fully ranked unit by its self, but that's not going to happen consistantly. Still, a handy unit to threaten your opponent from so far away.

Anyway, I think the best upgrade you can buy any DE cavalry unit to a min/max harpy unit for bait and flee tactics. ;)

MercuryLamp
01-01-2009, 17:05
Has anyone thought of using Cold One knights in a 4 X 2 unit? Yes, you wouldn't get a rank bonus and theoryhammer holds that large cavalry units are bad, but with this arrangement you can take better advantage of Fear and have a couple buffer guys. It seems when I field my unit of 5, they get shot up on turn 1.

Elves All The Way
01-01-2009, 23:41
yh i have 2 agree with mercury lamp, except i would make it 10 instead of 8 in 5 X 2 cause with ten you'll outnumber all the other calavry who thinks 5 or 6 is the ideal number makeing that fear come in handy as well as outnumbering scouts, and archers. and also as said it'l help their survivablity with shooting, of course thats a double edged sword, you'll be able to take more shooting and keep your attacks at full but then again the enemy doent have 2 split fire

stonehorse
02-01-2009, 00:12
Two units of five are more useful to have than one of ten, spending all the points on the extra five, who will do nothing but add +1 combat res until a single model dies in the unit, is a waste.

I always escort my five Coldone Knights with a tooled out Dreadlord/Master, not much can stand up to their charge.

bert n ernie
02-01-2009, 11:16
My current cold one unit has 7 including the banner bearer with the hydra banner. In the one game I've played with them so far I had three (including the banner bearer) survive Tzeench magic which was enough to cause a Chaos Knight unit with a Wizard to flee and take no casualties of my own(frontal charge). I proceeded to take on a few other smaller units during the game.
I do think that they need to be backed up by another 'heavy' target like a chariot though.

Scythe
03-01-2009, 09:54
Two units of five are more useful to have than one of ten, spending all the points on the extra five, who will do nothing but add +1 combat res until a single model dies in the unit, is a waste.

I always escort my five Coldone Knights with a tooled out Dreadlord/Master, not much can stand up to their charge.

Two units take up two special slots though. Also, realistically speaking they will have a wider frontage, as not many (non-brettonian) people are going to deploy their knights in 3x2 formation.

kyussinchains
05-01-2009, 13:40
I think putting extra models into a CoK unit to absorb casualties (especially if you're putting them in an extra rank which doesnt even generate a rank bonus!) is a waste of points and time, the only thing you gain is unit strength, if your opponent has lots of missile troops, screen them with harpies or even dark riders.

I would also agree that 2 smaller units is a better option that one big unit, although they take up the extra special slot, they provide more tactical options (your opponent will struggle more to misdirect 2 units) and in general are more durable (no chance of a lucky volley gun wiping out both in a single turn, or the unit panicking off the table, not to mention the fact that you need to fail 2 stupidity tests to lose the use of all your CoKs for a turn)

personally I use 2 units of 5, and normally stick a character in them for some added punch, it's very rare that I lose both units before they get into combat!

edit: my point about the shades was in reference to using them in close combat, as far as I understood from the previous discussion that is how people were employing them (and how I've certainly been using them!)

Frankly
05-01-2009, 18:23
edit: my point about the shades was in reference to using them in close combat, as far as I understood from the previous discussion that is how people were employing them (and how I've certainly been using them!)

OK ... no worries.

bert n ernie
05-01-2009, 19:26
Is there any advise people could give me regarding surviving shooty enemy armies. I have not played any yet, but I know I will find myself playing a dwarf gun line and others quite soon.
My army list can be located here if you are willing to give specific advise:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3181271#post3181271

Thanks

EDIT:
P.S. I have been reading about the almost unkillable DreadLord with the Pendant and the Armour of Eternal Servitude (perhaps with Soulrender and a null stone). Is this worth taking generally, and how should he be mounted? I wanted to put him on a pegasus, but they seem like they would die too easily to do anything for him.

kyussinchains
05-01-2009, 21:44
Is there any advise people could give me regarding surviving shooty enemy armies. I have not played any yet, but I know I will find myself playing a dwarf gun line and others quite soon.
My army list can be located here if you are willing to give specific advise:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3181271#post3181271

use your superior movement (especially against dwarfs) and keep out of his range and arc as much as possible, find the "blind" spot in his line, concentrate your fire on opening this up, then get your fast flyers and other units behind his lines. Take out war machines and lone runesmiths quickly, then either hit his block units in the flank, or his missile units in the rear.

Always concentrate your shooting/magic on a single unit and try to cripple it as soon as possible.



P.S. I have been reading about the almost unkillable DreadLord with the Pendant and the Armour of Eternal Servitude (perhaps with Soulrender and a null stone). Is this worth taking generally, and how should he be mounted? I wanted to put him on a pegasus, but they seem like they would die too easily to do anything for him.

Always use a cold one for the bonus save, you're quite right in thinking that the pegasus will die quickly (it's a similar situation to the 6th edition tyrion, as soon as he charged any unit, it became a case of 'off with malandhir's legs!!' for the easy CR)

it's almost overkill to use both the pendant and the regen armour, the dreadlord will still die if he runs away, and the occasional low strength killing blow can still take him out.

Scythe
06-01-2009, 07:14
The regeneration armour is nice, but generally overkill on a lord with the pendant and a decent armor save. He is hardly going to be wounded anyway; big chance that hard payed (pts wise) regeneration never comes into play.

foehammer888
06-01-2009, 12:44
The issues between black guard and executioners comes down to one simple fact that occurs across almost all of warhammer: when it comes to infantry, a strong heart beats a strong arm.

Look across most armies. Which infantry tends to be use? In almost all cases, infantry with things like stubborn, immune to psych, unbreakable, or high LD will almost always be used over equivilently pointed infantry with greater killing power. The only real acception to this is in the HE army, where ASF turns offensive power into de-factor defensive power. The reasoning behind this is that as infantry are slow, they are not guarunteed to charge, and thus may be denied their killing power. This is particularly true with T3 guys with only a 5+ save. Black guard's usefulness has little to do 2A (as they are only S4) and much more to do with immune to psych and stubborn. That's why I don't believe more attacks or better KB would have helped excutioner's much (unless they could take the ASF banner).

Overall, they suffer like many elf units suffer (both HE and DE), GW includes them in lists because they have always been there, without any actually thought as to whether they add a new/different/useful functionality to the list. Other units suffering in this way include Corsairs, HE Silvers Helms, etc.

My comments on the DE list, which I believe overall to be fairly good.

1) the Manticore: what is with GW's insistance that, to have a scaly skin save, the creature must have scales. I'm sure the toughened hide of a giant winged lion-creature would be enough to provide at least a 5+ or 4+ scaly skin save. That would have been enough to make it more useful. Another approach would have been to do something similar to the Lizardmen Carnosaur (in the new book) and make it not a large target. This would reduce some of its usefuless, but would also have drastically reduced its weakness to shooting. Would also fit the "lion" style of hunting which typically involves stalking hidden in tall grass and poucing on its prey.

2) Which hag - with the master being a decent combat hero, her only real role is to be a BSB in a khanite unit, and not a fantastic one. She would have gained popularity by having an array of "witchbrew" or other unit buffs which apply to khainite units she joins. This would have had the additional benefit of boosting khainite units, which are some of the weaker units in the list as it stands.

3) Corsairs: as many of said, they fulfill the same role as spearmen but more expensive. yes they might be better at ACR, but cheap core infantry are not for ACR, that is somehting special and rare units do waaaaay better. Make them cheaper and have the choice between them and spearmen be down to personal taste/theme. While I am usually a proponent of not using cross-army comparisons Corsair WS4, S3, T3, 5+/4+ save, 2 A 10points. Chaos Warrior WS5, S4, T4, 2A 4+ save 12 points, with options for various shields/weapons to improve those.

4) Executioners and Witch elves - as mentioned above, suffer from the fact that offensive infantry with little defense/psych benefits don't work terribly well in the current Warhammer system. Possible unit buffs from either including a witch elf hag or just having unit buffs available in the armory of khaine would have helped. Also, on witch elves, elite elf infantry with WS4? WS5 would have been a min, and maybe better I or Movement to account for the fact that they are essentially naked.

5) dark pegasus: while not bad, why did GW (in the daemons and WoC books) change all "weak" monstrous mounts (juggernaughts, discs) into 1-wound cavalry mounts but not change the pegasus? The one realy downside to the unit is a round of shooting and the mount will likely be shot out from under the character.

my thoughts

Walls
10-01-2009, 01:03
Howdy!

My girlfriend wants to get into Fantasy and I know for a fact Dark Elves interest her. Why? Because she can do them like drow. Yes, she reads fantasy novels too and is hot and is a nerd. Best ever.

REGARDLESS... I would like to start getting her some stuff. She comes on gaming days with me. (She plays 40k orks at the moment if not mostly because I bought AoBR and then got her more boyz and a trukk)

So keeping with the drow theme, would a Witch Elf centric/themed army be at all viable? The one character can be used to take witch elves for core. She'd obviously have other troops: corsairs, black ark corsairs, spearmen, etc, etc. I have an idea to use spider riders and dark elf warriors modelled together as driders (basically centaur spidermen) and used as cold one riders. I would obviously have fun working with this army too.

So, anyone give me some tips/advice on such a build?

Dooks Dizzo
10-01-2009, 01:16
I would see a Drow themed army as being more heavy magic to be honest. And Drow use 'lizard riders' don't they? I think Cold One Knights fit that beautifully.

I would say you go with:

Supreme Sorceress (High Priestess)
Black Staff
Pendant of Kaeleth

Stick her in a big block of Spearmen as her personal house hold Guard. Or even use Black Guard for elite troops.

Level 2 sorceress w/ sacrificial Dagger (how's that for Drow?)

Corairs make perfect Drow Warriors with their Handbows.

Shades are great for 'infiltrator' style Drow.

An assassin would be cool.

And I don't see any problem with a Hydra in the army as Drow are known for capturing big monsters and making them eat their enemies. Of course you could always use a different monster model and use the Hydra stats, just try to keep the base the same. Some sort of giant monstrous Drider might be cool.

Walls
10-01-2009, 01:33
Yeah, drow are fairly magic dependent as the women are clerics for the most part. I know she was fairly interested in the witch elf models though, hence the question.

I definitely told her she needs some blocks of troops, then scatter a couple units of witch elves in there for flavor.

Yeah, Cold one riders are a must as they have lizard riders. I was just thinking another unit of them modelled as driders instead would be cool too.

Keep em coming!

Dooks Dizzo
10-01-2009, 01:49
All the DE sorceress models are naked women :)

I personally don't use any witches but I understand the Cauldron of Blood can be quite powerful.

Tyrannus
10-01-2009, 02:27
Ive gone and modeled my Dark Riders as D.riders. The first unit is not done yet but it is close and most people that see them are liking them. Ill see about posting pictures of them. I plan on having one of my sorcerors also riding a Dark steed so she will also be modeled as a Drider.

Walls
10-01-2009, 02:31
That'd be fantastic man! Looking forward to hopefully seeing them. If you can post them PM me so I can give you an email addy to send to at least.

Scythe
10-01-2009, 10:30
The issues between black guard and executioners comes down to one simple fact that occurs across almost all of warhammer: when it comes to infantry, a strong heart beats a strong arm.

Look across most armies. Which infantry tends to be use? In almost all cases, infantry with things like stubborn, immune to psych, unbreakable, or high LD will almost always be used over equivilently pointed infantry with greater killing power. The only real acception to this is in the HE army, where ASF turns offensive power into de-factor defensive power. The reasoning behind this is that as infantry are slow, they are not guarunteed to charge, and thus may be denied their killing power. This is particularly true with T3 guys with only a 5+ save. Black guard's usefulness has little to do 2A (as they are only S4) and much more to do with immune to psych and stubborn. That's why I don't believe more attacks or better KB would have helped excutioner's much (unless they could take the ASF banner).

Sorry, but I don't really agree. Due to having 2 attacks, which can always be rerolled, Black Guard should hardly ever be taking break tests (especially when having crimson death champion or character backup). The immuune to psych / stubborn is just an added bonus; they would be worth it without one of those two, they are not required to make the unit workable (but certainly nice to have, I admit).


4) Executioners and Witch elves - as mentioned above, suffer from the fact that offensive infantry with little defense/psych benefits don't work terribly well in the current Warhammer system. Possible unit buffs from either including a witch elf hag or just having unit buffs available in the armory of khaine would have helped. Also, on witch elves, elite elf infantry with WS4? WS5 would have been a min, and maybe better I or Movement to account for the fact that they are essentially naked.

I don't think Witch Elves are all that bad. It seems you primary face of against cavalry armies, against which their usefullness dimishes, I admit, but generally speaking, they preform quite well. It is just that they are outshined by another elite choice (Black Guard). Fundamentely, you have the movement advantage over enemy infantry, so with a little work, Witches should usually be getting the charge of. As long as witches are striking first, not much survives to tell the tale. Strange as it sounds, WS4 is hardly a problem for their hitting power compared to WS5 (poison combined with hatred being the reason here). Assume 12 witch attacks versus a WS4 opponent:

12 * 1/6 + 12 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 3 autowounds
12 * 1/3 + 12 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 6 normal hits

now, if they would have been WS5:

12 * 1/6 + 12 * 1/3 * 1/6 = 2.67 autowounds
12 * 1/2 + 12 * 1/3 * 1/2 = 8 normal hits

Though you cause less normal hits, this is partially compensated by generating more poisoned autowounds. Against T5/T6 opponents, the difference is completely absent (the two extra hits only generating 1/3 wound on average).

Anyway, I still think witches bring a lot of anti-infantry hitting power to the dark elf army for a little less pts investment compared to Black Guard. A unit of 14 witches with full command and the banner of murder (for that little extra punch) nets you 190 pts, which is workable for a unit which delivers 22 poisoned attacks with hatred on their charge.

Executioners are a different thing though; they are expensive, but mainly suffer from inability to toutch their prefered targets. You generally want Executioners to strike against cavalry or something else with a high armour save. Sadly those things move faster than you (not like witches for example, who are targetting slower infantry), so they can either ignore you mostly, or get a charge of, and kill you before you can strike back. Their situation is also not helped by having the option of putting a crimson death and/or banner of murder into a unit Black Guard, which makes them more reliable, harder hitting can openers for minimal extra cost.

Draconian77
12-01-2009, 09:11
With regards to the Witch Elf loving person, you can make one hell of a bunker by adding Hellbron and an ASF BSB Deathhag to a Witch/Executioner unit.

Anything it hits will die so just make sure it hits something...


I would certainly consider talking 4 bolt throwers in a mostly frenzied army for a variety of reasons that I'm not going to go into now...

Viva la Druchii.

Frankly
12-01-2009, 15:45
The thing is, DE have HARPIES and flyers are the best frenzy unit delivery system in the game, if your running lots of wyches then run lots of DRs and harpies for bait and flee charges, blocking LOS, from keeping enemy units from march blocking your wyches, go after static shooty units etc, etc. I've been watching wyches punish other rank and file units, they're a very good unit especially in the context of an armylist that knows how to support them.

stonehorse
12-01-2009, 16:23
Harpies are without a doubt the best unit in our army, players who fail to see this need to watch an experienced Dark Elf player show them how they work.

Here is my 1,000pts list which I play with.

Sorceress, Extra Level, Dark Star Cloak
10 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen, Shields.
10 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen, Shields.
6 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician, Herald
8 Harpies
12 Executioners, Full Command
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

The best I have had is a game against the new Warriors of Chaos, where the only model the Chaos player managed to kill was a single Dark Rider, and in return I wiped his army out.

Harpies where the reason why, with the ability to fly 20", I was able to get into places where I'd be march blocking him with out threat of being damaged, and there to destroy any fleeing units. All the while I shot him to bits, and then charged in with the Executioners, Dark Riders, and Harpies to finish him off. If I recall correctly my Harpies managed to kill 7 Marauders in rear charge.

2 units of 5 Harpies is only 110pts, and will help any Dark Elf player control the flow of battle never leave Naggaroth without them.

Frankly
12-01-2009, 18:08
Harpies are without a doubt the best unit in our army, players who fail to see this need to watch an experienced Dark Elf player show them how they work.



I totally agree, I'm using 5 x 5 units at the moment and they're the true work horse of the list, they control SO much of the the opponent can do and see ... just brilliant.

The fact the they don't cause panic means that they take that piece of puzzle out of panic and fleeing situations is just awesome, you can put more fore-thought into aggressive without worrying about panic.

5 harpies charging a MW usually means a full 10 attacks on the crew ... perfect(accept silly stunties :mad:).

The best multi-task unit I've played with since last editions dire wolves.

Neknoh
26-01-2009, 00:09
"Sheath your swords Black Guards, I come seeking the counself of these generals gathered here, I may bear the brand of Slaanesh upon my brow, but that does not mean I come in ill intentions." The great, ironclad champion stepped into the hall, his sword still sheathed at his side and his armour breathing as if though it had a life of its own, "Greetings, gentlemen."


Now, what is this all about? Well, I am looking at doing two things, first of all, reviving this thread from a few pages away from the front page, secondly, ask advice on the Dark Elves, the models are too awesome, especially the Coldone Knights, and I am deffinately buying them. Whether it turns into a DE army or not we'll see, but some Coldone Knights wont hurt the budget too much, so I figured, heck, why not :p

Now, I have been looking at an approximation of what I would get for my army, and I think that I have settled on an army which would be a mix of dark elf infantry and cavalry.


I think the list would consist of one Master on a Coldone Chariot, either kept cheap with a Lance, cloak, armour and shield, or I might get a bit more exotic and go for the Crimson Death.

For core, I have yet to decide on exactly what to field, either corsairs or Dark Elf Warriors. My innitial thoughts go toward a unit of crossbows allong with perhaps two units of Corsairs and a unit of Dark Riders.

For specials comes the shinies, two units of Coldone Knights, one with the Standard and Slaughter and the other either with a Warbanner or the Banner of Murder.

I am considering kitting the champions of the units with shiny items as well, Enchanted Shield and Sword of Might on one of them could be a possibillity whilst the Ring would obviously go on the second one. Alternatively, the first one might wield the Crimson Death instead of my character, or he's looking at the Deathpiercer.


This'd be somewhere around 200 points for each Coldone Unit, making for approximately 400 points. The Master and his Chariot would be another 200 points, leaving me 400 for the units to fill out the army. And I do really mean fill out, the units I like are allready in the list so there is no real need to get other units appart from the annoying minimum core.

So, with 400 points left to spend, should I either be looking at giving the Master a Dark Pegasus instead? (I love both the Dark Peggy look and the Chariot mounted look, most importantly, he should have a lance, simply cause I can't have it on my chaos characters :p) and then go for two units of Dark Riders for my core? This would be a fairly small army at 1k.

Two units of five Dark Riders with a Musician and Repeater Crossbows in each would reach 234 points, still leaving me with 164 points, and what do I do with those? I've still got Shades left, an absolutely awesome unit, so I could always aim at picking up some of those for harassment, some general shooty hurt and then flank support for the Knights.

The other option would be finding ten points for a Hydra :skull: Points which might well be available due to the Master now costing a lot less without his chariot and on his Dark Peggy instead. However, if I have these extra points, five shades with a railgun assassin in them is also a very, very tempting option and might get fewer cries of cheese, it also looks to be cheaper money-wise.

So, what do people think of the general ideas I have for this future army?

Frankly
26-01-2009, 17:13
May I suggest harpies with those extra points, so far they're be the best buy in my army.

Draconian77
26-01-2009, 20:47
@Neknoh

Would you mind putting your ideas in list form? I find it much easier to formulate my thoughts when I'm looking at cold, hard numbers!

Neknoh
26-01-2009, 23:57
Quick Mock due to a tired Neknoh :p

Master
- Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Lance, Shield, some fifty points of magic items, possibly including a weapon or a piece of armour. I do not feel the pendant is justified in the least bit on this character, a challenge or encounter with random big baddie that doesn't go down will more likely see the peggy dead and the character broken from CR. Perhaps keeping it simple with Caledor's Bane and Enchanted Shield, or going shiny with the Egg or Potion fo Strength coupled with something else. The Ring of Darkness is a possibillity. Perhaps I should pick Armour of Darkness and Crimson Death? Fairly standard, fairly decent. There are many options here... ~ 180-190 points

5 Dark Riders
- Repeater Crossbows... 111, 118 if I include a Musician

5 Dark Riders
- Repeater Crossbows... 111, 118 if I include a Musician

5 Coldone Knights
- Full Command, Ring of Hotek... 200 points

5 Coldone Knights
- Full Command, Banner of Murder... 200 points

174 points left if I go for a 190 point Master and include the Musicians on the Dark Riders. We can probably expect anoter 6 points from the gear of the Lord though, so let's say 180 points.

For this, I could either field:

6 Shades
- Greatweapons... 108 points

6 Harpies
- 66 points

Alternatively, one less shade and two more Harpies.
One other option with the shades is to swap the Harpies for gear, the Standard of Murder on the first unit of Coldone Knights allong with the Crimson Death on the Champion of the second unit for instance.

Another option would be the ever magnificent Hydra at 175 points, it would pose a frightening addition to the army at a mere 1k points limit.

Finding 20 points from somewhere (the banner of Murder perhaps) could otherwise net me two Reaper Bolt Throwers. Alternatively, a Death Hag with a Cauldron comes for 200 points as well, this could be another option, boosting the Knights with +1 attack each could indeed mean certain death to some units.

10 Dark Elf Warriors to act as a Delivery System for a Rending Star Assassin could also work rather decently... in a very evil way, the unit could then be used to run arround and capture tablequarters.

A Coldone Chariot allong with five Greatweapon Shades is another option

A third unit of Coldone Knights?

There are quite a few more that I can think of that I would enjoy

bert n ernie
27-01-2009, 00:05
I'd go for the 6 shades and 6 harpies option.
Once you get to bigger games you might find use for the Hydra, but why take such an unnecessary unit that your opponent can often avoid at low points levels(less models on board)?
The list looks good, although if you lose a couple of knights from each of those cold one units due to magic you will have only the shades to do hard hitting.
I would have assumed that a minimum number of 6 is best for Cold one knights.
Also much of the army is subject to panic with all of those minimum numbers units out there.

I haven't played many Dark Elf games yet, so I could be wrong in my estimation of your army.

Draconian77
27-01-2009, 01:10
Quick Mock due to a tired Neknoh :p

Master
- Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Lance, Shield, some fifty points of magic items, possibly including a weapon or a piece of armour. I do not feel the pendant is justified in the least bit on this character, a challenge or encounter with random big baddie that doesn't go down will more likely see the peggy dead and the character broken from CR. Perhaps keeping it simple with Caledor's Bane and Enchanted Shield, or going shiny with the Egg or Potion fo Strength coupled with something else. The Ring of Darkness is a possibillity. Perhaps I should pick Armour of Darkness and Crimson Death? Fairly standard, fairly decent. There are many options here... ~ 180-190 points

You can't go wrong with a 1+ save and S6 attacks! You may want to look into a pair of handbows, useful if your opponent keeps a caster inside a forest.

5 Dark Riders
- Repeater Crossbows... 111, 118 if I include a Musician

I have never found the crossbows to be worth taking on Dark Riders.
I'm not saying that they're bad, just that I feel fast cavalry should be kept cheap and cheerful. (They aren't exactly death dealers though...)
The musician might be worth adding, depends on how much baiting they're going to be doing.

5 Dark Riders
- Repeater Crossbows... 111, 118 if I include a Musician

5 Coldone Knights
- Full Command, Ring of Hotek... 200 points

6 would be my norm for Knight units, although it would require you buying another box. If you have a few character models mounted on Cold Ones you could always use them as unit champions. I'm not sure the musician is required here, or to put it another way, if its a choice between musicians for the DR's or these fellas I'd go with the DR's.

5 Coldone Knights
- Full Command, Banner of Murder... 200 points

I find the that the Banner of Murder is very nice if you have a S5-6 hero accompanying the unit, otherwise I think the standard warbanner or perhaps the standard of slaughter would serve you better.

174 points left if I go for a 190 point Master and include the Musicians on the Dark Riders. We can probably expect anoter 6 points from the gear of the Lord though, so let's say 180 points.



After thinking about it 5 CoK's is probably plenty at this points value. Although dropping the RxBs on the DR's would give you about 200pts to spend, you could add a CoK to each unit and then 2 units of Harpies. With the points left over you could give one unit a Warbanner and upgrade the other unit to have the Standard of Slaughter?

Harpies would be my first recommendation, they can act as screens for your CoK's should you run into an enemy with an affinity for blackpowder or they can do their usual war-machine/march blocking roles.

You might find 2 Bolt Throwers or a few Rxbmen to be worthy investments, as it would force the enemy to come to you.

You could also experiment with Black Guard, useful for locking an enemy in place which can allow the Cold One Knights to either flank or pick apart the rest of the enemy army.

Scythe
27-01-2009, 05:57
A few words to the defense of repeater crossbows on dark riders: I personally use them with great succes versus enemy fast cavalry. 10-12 shots might not look like a lot of firepower, but you can generally count on 1-2 kills versus T3 low save opponents. Against enemy fast cavalry, that can easily give you the edge. What is more, it removes the need for your dark riders to try and engage them in combat, enabeling you to multitask (lining up for a flank charge or redirecting an enemy charge, while taking care of weak enemy flanking units at the same time, or even just treathening or scaring away lone characters). For 25-30 pts on a unit of 5-6 models, I think the crossbows are well worth their investment.

Draconian77
27-01-2009, 14:36
The problem I have is that they are useful against such a minute selection of targets, T3 fast cavalry being one of them. Against T4 opponents or skirmishers I just don't find them to be that useful. For hunting lone characters I'd rather take 2x handbows on a Peg rider or the Lifetaker.

As an aside, Neknoh, at 1k point you could give your Peg rider a BsB+Warbanner/Banner of Slaughter. This means he can edge out wins against ranked units and should make a merry mess of cavalry. You could also just add the BsB to the 1+ save S6 build.

Deus Mechanicus
27-01-2009, 19:34
Hey ya'll what's the cheesiest of cheese infested beardy list at the 2250 pts level you can make out there? The ones where your friends will leave you, your wife will divorce you and your boss will fire you for playing? I play two very limiting 40k armies (Death Guard & Deathwing) and is looking for a more (potential!) power army when starting fantasy.

I basicly want to see the worst of the worst cheese possible with the new Dark Elves, help me out here :P

Draconian77
27-01-2009, 19:40
You know, the Druchii are formidable without resorting to their most powerful builds...but, if you want cheese then you probably won't go far wrong with:

Lord on Dragon
Scroll Caddy

30 Crossbowmen/15 Dark Riders
x Harpies

Shades+Assassin
etc
Either 5 CoK+Ring of Hotek or 10-15 BG + Ring of Hotek.

Hydra
Hydra

Most people despise these lists, with good reason.

Snagtoof
27-01-2009, 20:01
Want to lose friends (and probably a little faith in yourself)? Just run

Lord (hw/shield/seas drgn cloak/halbard) Armor of eternal Servitude / Pendant of reverse ward Saves

Bsb with (hw/shield/cloak/hvy arm/haldbard) 125 point unbreakable banner

Master (same as above) with halve WS/BS item

repeater x-bows on all characters

lvl 1 sorceress with 3 null stones for MR(3)

Want to swap something out (banner/null stones/half BS to shoot at for the Ring of hotek, haven't thought this fully through)

Core:

3 units of 10 naked warriors (60 points each)

Special:

1 unit of 67 Shades w/ additional hand weapons and thats about it (put all 4 characters in here)
with
Assasin additional hw/ Mark of Khaine/ manbane


Your stand and shoots will kill any monster on the charge on average, your imposible to kill general can take any challenge. You can shoot any unit to death instantly.

Only prayer for the enemy is war machines and if they multi charge (you can only kill one to a stand and shoot) and they hold you up for a while hoping to deny you points, but still impossible for them to win.

Draconian77
27-01-2009, 20:06
Whilst that did come up in the Deathstar thread, I have yet to meet a Druchii player that has that many Shade models!

Neknoh
27-01-2009, 20:21
As an aside, Neknoh, at 1k point you could give your Peg rider a BsB+Warbanner/Banner of Slaughter. This means he can edge out wins against ranked units and should make a merry mess of cavalry. You could also just add the BsB to the 1+ save S6 build.

Errata'd now, he cannot be the general anymore if he's got the BsB upgrade

Draconian77
27-01-2009, 20:25
True enough, adding in another character is an option if you have about 200pts to play around with.

I run 3 Peg riders at 2k and they always serve me well. Very little can stand up to a combined charge, especially not from the flanks/rear. Although it takes the Ld and BsB away from your main line this isn't such a big deal if your main line is mostly a decoy...

Deus Mechanicus
27-01-2009, 20:59
You know, the Druchii are formidable without resorting to their most powerful builds...but, if you want cheese then you probably won't go far wrong with

True, but i wanted to explore the extreme possibilities :) i play in tournament with comp anyway so a super power army list would rarely be fielded anyway.

How about this then?

Dreadlord 554 pts
- Black Dragon
- Sword of Ruin
- Armour of Eternal Servitude
- Shield
- Sea Dragon Cloak

Sorceress 150 pts
- 2x Dispel Scrolls

5x Dark Riders 110 pts
- Repeater Crossbows

5x Dark Riders 110 pts
- Repeater Crossbows

5x Dark Riders 110 pts
- Repeater Crossbows

15x Repeater Crossbowmen 150 pts

15x Repeater Crossbowmen 150 pts

5x Harpies 55 pts

5x Harpies 55 pts

5x Harpies 55 pts

5x Cold One Knights 200 pts
- Full Command
- Ring of Hotek

5x Shades 85 pts
- Great Weapons
- 1x Assassin 116 pts
- Cloak of Shadows
- Additional Hand Weapon

War Hydra 175 pts

War Hydra 175 pts

2250 pts

Draconian77
27-01-2009, 21:53
Well the Lord could probably go around with the Pendant and the Crimson Death rather than the Sword of Ruin and the Regen armour. That saves a few points.

The 30 Crossbowmen could be replaced by another unit of Shades and another Assassin to go with them.

The Assassins either need Killing Blow+D3 extra attacks or Manbane and Rending Stars.

When I said 30 Rxbmen/15 DR's I was just suggesting minimum core.

Lets see, accounting the cheaper Lord and dropping the Crossbowmen you save yourself 325pts.

5 Shades with great weapons, 90. Assassin with Rending Stars and Manbane, AHW = 151
So 241 spent.

Drop the Cloak on the other Assassin as with that little magic it won't get through. So he drops to 96pts giving you 104pts to sepnd.

Manbane+Rending Stars on the Assassin = 55pts
49pts to spend, I suggest another Cold One Knight(22pts left) and a Standard of Slaughter(13pts over)

Drop 1 set of RxB's on a unit of Dark Riders.

Pretty much finished. Oh and 5 Shades with GW's are 90pts I think, you have them listed as 85 in your list.

Deus Mechanicus
27-01-2009, 23:50
Made some of the changes and posted them in a new thread here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3238655#post3238655), didnt want to hijack the tactica thread with lots of list variations.

Scythe
28-01-2009, 06:36
The problem I have is that they are useful against such a minute selection of targets, T3 fast cavalry being one of them. Against T4 opponents or skirmishers I just don't find them to be that useful. For hunting lone characters I'd rather take 2x handbows on a Peg rider or the Lifetaker.

As an aside, Neknoh, at 1k point you could give your Peg rider a BsB+Warbanner/Banner of Slaughter. This means he can edge out wins against ranked units and should make a merry mess of cavalry. You could also just add the BsB to the 1+ save S6 build.

It could depend on local metagame I admit, but I never found target selection much of a problem. As far as I know, all fast cavalry (ok, aside from TK chariots) in the game is T3, and most armies has acces to fast cavalry (exceptions springing to mind are Dwarves, Skaven, Ogres and Lizarmen). However, even if not firing at such target, the ability to cause a kill on ranked infantry (and knocking of a rank; a possible effect similar to a 25 pts war banner), take a wound of a flanking monster (or seriously threathen characters on light monsters, such as eagle or pegasus riders), take care of support units (detachments and other 5-10 model flankers, or things like Skaven weapon teams), or harm Ogre-sized creatures (T4 is not so bad as each wound on such things is an expensive one points wise, and each kill seriously affects the hitting power of the unit).

I admit that a few crossbows do not really have the power to destroy anything except those small units of fast cavalry. However, the advantage of having a few crossbows on a M9 platform (M18 effectively, as you can march and shoot) is quite nice, as it can be just enough to finish of something you couldn't achieve with your regular shooting, if range or los falls short there. Just having the extra flexibility of crossbows is for me very nice to have. However, if you run 3 pegasus characters like yourself, I can see the need of having them decrease.

Draconian77
28-01-2009, 15:28
It could depend on local metagame I admit, but I never found target selection much of a problem. As far as I know, all fast cavalry (ok, aside from TK chariots) in the game is T3, and most armies has acces to fast cavalry (exceptions springing to mind are Dwarves, Skaven, Ogres and Lizarmen). However, even if not firing at such target, the ability to cause a kill on ranked infantry (and knocking of a rank; a possible effect similar to a 25 pts war banner), take a wound of a flanking monster (or seriously threathen characters on light monsters, such as eagle or pegasus riders), take care of support units (detachments and other 5-10 model flankers, or things like Skaven weapon teams), or harm Ogre-sized creatures (T4 is not so bad as each wound on such things is an expensive one points wise, and each kill seriously affects the hitting power of the unit).



All very good points, the only 2 things that I would say is that;

A)You do sort of have to weigh up the pros and cons of spending the points on those RxB's or say a magic standard or an extra Harpy unit/a few extra Shades/Spearmen/etc.

B)In a round about way we have discussed that Fast Cavalry is quite vulrenable to any type of ranged attack, being quite a cautious player I tend to keep the Dark Riders points cost low.

Frankly
28-01-2009, 17:01
RXB's on DR's is a hard one to get right imho. Like Scythe said it might just come down to meta game. At first I could not have dreamed of not taking RXB's on my DRS, but lately I've found it more effective to drop the weapon from my 6 x 5 units of DR's and tool up hero's with hand-Xbows instead.

I've just found that I tend to push the DR's into positions that threaten to charge and thats not always a great place to use RXB's. Also I'm running 2 units of shades which seem to with fast cavalry pretty well.

Still not sure if dropping them and loosing strength in the shooting phase is a good idea, but anyway, time will tell.

Draco74
29-01-2009, 12:51
This last weekend, I saw the most broken DE list that I have ever seen.
It was at the the Sooie 2009 Tournament in Fayetteville, AR. Every one was complaining about it and how it was just no fun at all to play against it.

Core:
3 units of 5 dark riders
1 unit of 5 harpies

Rare:
1 Hydra

Then 1 lord level, BSB, 2 Sorceress's and an Assasin on a unit of 45 shades!
I cant remimber what the heroes and lord where or what they had, but they made the unit always strike first, Immune to Pschology and MR (2).

The large unit just walked around taking 90 shots a turn at some one in range.
If you tried to charge they had 90 shots on the stand and shoot, you couldn't magic them and you couldn't panic them.

What the heck! How do you fight that? I guess it is possible because he did loss to an empire army (must have had a lot of guns). But I play Chaos (Daemons, Beasts and Mortals).

Ander
29-01-2009, 14:00
It is a nasty list indeed.Well known already though and quite boring and unfluffy in my opinion. Most armies will struggle against that. The thing is, you don't really want to fight them in close combat (too many high- strengh-hatred-asf-attacks plus reverse ward and so on...). Shouting the unit should be quite hard, as they skirmish and possibly have the the item that makes shouting on them less efficient (don't know its English name). What you want is either Auto-hits or something like the empire mortar...
Another way of dealing with this list might be just points-denying (if your army can do that)

I don't play any of the armies you play so other people will offer better advice. Would like to know how the Empire player beat this list...? Mortars are rarely taken. Possibly he took the "double stank combo"

Ander
29-01-2009, 14:06
I mean "shooting" obviously. Out of some reason I am not allowed to change my post :(

Draco74
29-01-2009, 15:26
No problem, I knew what you meant.

I think the Empire army had atleast one tank and a War alter.
I gust you could keep casting spells that hit every one within 12" of caster, but that would be dangerous to get that close.

Dwarven organ guns would work (no to hit roll needed).
As for my chaos forces, we really only have hand to hand.

Mortals:
Maybe some knights with MoT, Blasted standard (4+ ward vs. shooting), BSB with banner of Rage and a Lord with Mok, Enchanted shield and Daemon sword (+d3 S, +d6 A), yeah you hit your self on a roll of 1, but a -1 Armor save should protect you from most of it.

Daemons:
I hat to say it, but 3 Heralds of Nurgle in Plaguebears unit.
Regeneration and wards save might get enough of them through.

Beasts:
They are just out of luck, no armor, not LD, no way.

Draco74
29-01-2009, 15:34
Now that I think of it. Any one that can cast the lore of Life's "Rain Lord", should be ok. THe repeater crossbows are "Armor Peircing" so they would be at -2 to hit for the rest of the game (-3 on stand and shoot).

Heralds of Tzeentch could take the Master of Sorcery (my favorite gift) and then hit them with it and let the rest of the army charge in.

Scythe
30-01-2009, 06:26
Hmm, the shade death star unit I already saw pass a few times on these boards. Never thought one actually used that in a real game.

Anyway, not entirely sure about this, but can you stand and shoot against multiple chargers? If not, combined chariot charges might work. You might lose one to stand and shoot, but the others impact hits go before the always strike first.

Draco74
30-01-2009, 12:30
I hadn't thought about that. I do have quite a few Beast chariots.
Maybe combine them with some centagors or minotaurs.
Thanks.

Ander
30-01-2009, 14:56
Very good thought! As far as I know the unit is only allowed to shoot at one attacking chariot. Maybe someone can confirm that's still the case in the new rule sytem. You would have to screen your chariots from shooting though. As the chariots will be the biggest threat the death star unit is likely to shoot one to pieces per turn. You will definately loose one from stand and shoot. (approximately 8 wounds from the shades allone plus rending stars from assassine should be enough) Good luck.

Guy Fawkes
03-02-2009, 23:33
Alright guys, I've been thinking about doing a few guides like this for most of the armies and was wondering what everyone here thought. The basic idea is to build an entire army while "wasting" as few models as possible. To that end, I try to avoid ever having to remove units that you bought - allowing you to go from 500 points to 2250 without amassing a collection of useless units. Everything is built in easy 250 point blocks to ease army building and over time a coherent army is formed rather than a collection of units that looked cool but don't work together.

I was hoping everyone in this thread could give their recommendations before I revise this guide. Please keep in mind that this is designed with the absolute beginner in mind, so I explain why I take certain units and offer alternatives. So, without further ado...

From 500 to 2250: Collecting a Dark Elf Army

500 Points:

Master
Heavy Armor, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Great Weapon, Pendant of Khaeleth
129 points

Your General is the most important model in your army. Since he is mandatory, at 500 points it is best to keep him cheap. With that in mind, we try to outfit him with maximum protection for minimum cost. He has an impressive possible 2+ armor save in close combat if he uses his hand weapon, but can strike with three strength 6 attacks in order to add some kills to a combat. The Pendant of Khaeleth is one of the best protective talismans in the game, allowing the Master to emerge victorious from most challenges against characters, who will undoubtedly have powerful attacks. His ward save also dissuades normal rank-and-file troops from attacking him, allowing him to add to combat resolution with impunity.

24x Dark Elf Warriors
Shields, Full Command
183 points

At 500 points, you also have to take two core choices, and Warriors are the mainstay unit in a Dark Elf army. They are cheap for what they do and hatred, combined with good weapon skill, initiative, and movement, will allow them to take on most basic units relatively well. Combined with the Master, this unit should be able to win most combats. The unit has shields to offer protection from shooting and a possible 4+ armor save in combat, while a full command and ranks maximizes static combat resolution. The cheap cost of individual Warriors helps add to the resilience of the army as a whole against shooting.

10x Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen
100 points

The Repeater Crossbowmen offer some shooting support. 20 BS4, armor piercing shots per turn can take off ranks and give you the advantage in close combat. Remember that Repeater Crossbowmen can move and shoot, although they will suffer a penalty. Since they lack shields and are relatively expensive, they should be kept out of combat, but can hold out against very light support troops if necessary.

5x Dark Riders
85 points

Dark Riders are very fast and at 500 points the table will be relatively empty. This allows the Riders room to flank enemies. As fast cavalry, Dark Riders are capable of harassing and delaying the enemy and assassinating weaker characters, like Wizards of Battle Standard Bearers who are carrying a magical standard. If they can flank and negate the ranks of an enemy unit, even a relatively weak ranked Dark Elf unit to the front can overpower the enemy. In this way, Dark Riders are all-around useful units and can be adapted to a variety of tasks, even baiting stronger enemies.

Total: 497 points

750 Points:

Keep your original forces and add the following:

5x Cold One Knights
Standard Bearer, Musician
159 points

It is time to add some special choices with our core units filled out. The army so far lacks hitting power, besides the Master, so we are adding Cold One Knights. As cavalry, they are able to get the charge off against most enemies and can provide assistance that Dark Riders can't. Cold One Knights, with their S6 attacks, can break through heavily armored troops and tip any combat to your favor. They are very resilient to return damage, but will lose against many fully-ranked units if they charge headlong without support.

5x Shades
Great Weapons
90 points

Shades fulfill another niche in our fledgling army. They can harass very well, as scouts with BS5 Repeater Crossbows, but are also capable of charging and overcoming weaker units with their great weapons. Shades can march-block the enemy early on, but 10 armor piercing shots each turn is nothing to scoff at either. Shades also provide a useful mechanism for delivering an Assassin, should you wish to do so later.

Total: 746 points

1000 Points:

Add the following to your army:

5x Harpies
55 points

Harpies are supremely cheap for the role they fill. They are flying skirmishes, able to attack warmachines early in the game, but can also scream your important units, since they skirmish and don't cause panic in other units. As the ultimate utilitarian unit, they will inevitably pull a lot of weight in any army. A 20" flying move should never be underestimated.

12x Black Guard of Naggaroth
Full Command
191 points

The Black Guard are one of the best elite infantry in the game and certainly the most overall useful that the Dark Elf army can offer. With two hatred-filled attacks each, they should deploy with a front rank of six or seven models, in order to maximize frontage. However, they are still vulnerable to shooting, getting charged, or fighting very powerful units, so they should be protected. As another block, they also allow you to fill up more of the board when you deploy and allow you to take on the growing threats that will be manifesting themselves at the 1000 point range.

Add 1 Dark Elf Warrior to the Warrior Unit
7 points

We have 7 extra points, so why not?

Total: 999 points

1250 Points:

Remove the extra Dark Elf Warrior we added at 1000 points, because we will need those extra points to strengthen our army. Add the following:

Master
Battle Standard Bearer, Dark Steed, Lance, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Heavy Armor
131 points

At this point, we can afford a Battle Standard Bearer. This guy is the most important model in the army because of the reroll he offers to units that would otherwise run. He makes our list more stable, our troops more dependable and disciplined. Having a unit disobey you is one of the most frustrating and game-breaking scenarios that can occur in Warhammer. Since we are still playing small games, we keep this guy cheap. He can still kill things with his Lance, but don't go throwing him into combats haphazardly because he has no magical protection. His Dark Steed adds to his armor save, but more importantly allows him to move around as needed during the battle. His +1 CR and possible kills are invaluable to any combat he participates in, so don't hold back with him.

Also of note is the fact that we decide to not mount our General and give him a proper set of equipment. I have kept our General as he is until the 2000 point list because he is capable of delivering leadership to the central blocks, adding kills to combats, and fulfilling challenges as he is. He is still very cheap as far as characters go, but you can feel free to mount him at this point.

Add a War Banner to the Warrior unit.
25 points

Many core units in other armies can't take magical standards, but Dark Elf Warriors can, so do it! The +1 CR helps keep Warrior units viable as points escalate and bring in more powerful units. Of course, they still can't take on the most dangerous things by themselves, but they can break and run down similarly equipped units with more confidence.

Add a Dread Knight with the Ring of Hotek to the Cold One Knights unit.
41 points

Adding a champion to cavalry isn't the best decision, unless you are planning for characters to join the unit (a possibility with the mounted BSB in this list). However, since the Cold One Knights champion can carry 25 points of magic equipment, he makes a suitable bearer for the Ring of Hotek, one of the most powerful magical defense items in the game. Magic is starting to play a big factor at this points level and 2 dispel dice simply don't cut it anymore. The Champion can move around and provides a forward magic defense. However, he is an expensive option that can ruin the unit if the champion if forced to accept a challenge in lieu of his unit fighting. A strong alternative is to skip the champion option altogether and give the Ring of Hotek to the BSB Master instead. I give him a Seal of Ghrond later down the road, but sometimes the Ring suffices.

Add the Crimson Death to the Tower Master and add the Standard of Hag Graef to the Black Guard unit.
60 points

3 S6 attacks are what our General currently delivers; giving this killing power to a unit champion is a huge boon. The Standard of Hag Graef makes the whole unit always strike first, which actually makes Black Guard able to hold a flank of your army or win out against foes much stronger than they. They still can't take sustained firepower well, but 15 attacks with hatred against any 5-wide infantry unit should cause some damage.

Total: 1249 points

1500 Points:

Keep your 1250 point force and add the following:

10x Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen
100 points

Shooting is important, and the original unit plus the Shades weren't cutting it. Now that our army has 50 shots per turn, enough to secure an advantage by removing ranks and panicking support units. The units can also stay behind and capture a table quarter without sacrificing their usefulness, which can win a game at 1500 points. The extra shooting also provides some relief on the fast elements of the army, which had to accomplish a lot of disruption in order to allow our army to be victorious in combat.

5x Dark Riders
85 points

Flanking and disruption are as vital as ever and an additional 5 Dark Riders will make winning easier. The second unit also provides redundancy - if one unit of Dark Riders dies, you aren't helpless.

Add one Cold One Knight to the unit.
27 points

Deploying cavalry 6-wide allows the maximum number of models to get into base contact with a 5-wide (20mm) enemy and deliver kills. Of course, the extra model also allows an outnumber and auto-break (via Fear) against US10 units. Finally, having an extra wound comes in handy every once in a while.

Give the Seal of Ghrond to the BSB Master.
30 points

This gives you a total of 3 dispel dice and a "zone of miscasts" so to speak. At 1500 points this is relatively light magic defense since it lacks dispel scrolls, but if you take a proactive role by killing enemy Wizards with your Dark Riders, Harpies, or Shades, this magic defense should suffice.

Add one Dark Elf to the Warrior unit.
7 points

Well, this guy goes back in again.

Total: 1498 points

1750 Points:

Drop the Dark Elf Warrior we added at 1500 points and throw in the following to your horde:

Add 2 Black Guard to the unit.
26 points

This allows you to deploy 7x2 and still preserve ranks after two casualties. Before, you were stuck with a front rank of 7 and a vulnerability or 6x2 and wasted potential. These additional models are more ablative wounds, so if you have not been fighting enemies that take out a Black Guard or two, or you don't think you need the extra models to preserve the unit's function, feel free to conserve points here.

War Hydra
175 points

This monster adds a lot of resilience to your army. The Hydra barrels towards the enemy with impressive speed and the powerful breath weapon adds to your firepower. However, this is all besides the point. The Hydra dominates in combat with its huge number of strong, hatred attacks. Of course, it is almost invincible to most ordinary troops and regeneration protects it against many elite opponents. All in all a useful addition to any army list and an unmatched flanker.

5x Harpies
55 points

We have more units to screen and more enemies to annoy. Remember to go after the Bolt Throwers and Cannons that can kill your War Hydra.

Total: 1747 points

2000 Points:

The big 2k, and you have graduated to a full-size army. We have an additional character (who can be a Lord), Special, and Rare choice available to us, but don't forget that enemies have these same options too! Expect to see fiercer lists at this level.

Drop your current General (The Master with the great weapon), because we will be upgrading him to his sweet, sweet, Leadership 10 equivalent. Add the following:

Dreadlord
Dark Steed, Heavy Armor, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Pendant of Khaeleth, Caledor’s Bane
243 points

Leadership 10 is the important factor here and will make a real difference in your army. We still try to keep the guy cheap, but ethereals and models that are well protected against mundane attacks are prevalent with annoying regularity at 2000 points, so we need to give him a magic weapon. Caledor's Bane makes him S7 on the charge, powerful enough to break chariots. I feel that the Potion of Strength, combined with any other magic weapon (such as the Sword of Might, Sword of Battle, etc...) allows for greater flexibility and all-around power, but Caledor's Bane is cheap and dependable. You are still T3, so you must rely on your Pendant and great armor save to see you through. Feel free to give the Dreadlord the Armor of Eternal Servitude if you think he won't survive the battle, but also consider the Potion of Strength option if you have the extra points.

Add the Standard of Slaughter to the Cold One Knights unit.
35 points

Add D3 to Combat Resolution for only 35 points? Yes please, since the Knights will always be charging. This makes breaking a surefire thing, and makes the Knights that much more powerful.

Cold One Chariot
100 points

This is another model that adds killing potential. Both this chariot and the Cold One Knights are fast and furious on the charge. The chariot has the advantage of delivering all of its damage along a very narrow frontage, which allows for a corner-touching dual charge with another unit (which provides static combat resolution). The chariot also gets around ASF, but is very vulnerable to warmachines. Keep it safe behind cover or use the assortment of fast, disruptive units available to the Dark Elves.

Total: 1996 points

2250 Points:

Our final stage - a tournament-sized army. This growth is more flexible than the last, so feel free to put whatever you want in at this level. I present two options below, trying to keep the army balanced and every model useful, but by now you probably know what you want to add. I recommend adding the following:

Reaper Bolt Thrower
100 points

This adds shooting support, but the Bolts allow you to shred through monsters or heavily armored Knights if necessary. Of course, it adds a liability in that it is a warmachine and needs to be protected, but it should help out no matter what army you are facing.

Sorceress
2x Dispel Scrolls
150 points

This model adds an additional dispel die and two scrolls to our magic defense. Obviously our army so far has not been geared towards actually casting magic, so we have no need to make her a level 2 Wizard. If you feel you don't need additional magic defense at this time, feel free to add another block of Warriors (20 with Shields only cost 140 points, enough to squeeze in if you streamline the list somewhat) or some other element. In the interest of keeping this army balanced however, a Sorceress offers strong magical defense. Feel free to put her on a Dark Pegasus if you want to be proactive and hunt down enemy mages, but another War Hydra also looks tempting for that price...

Total: 2246

The End Result: A 2250 Points Army!

Dreadlord
Dark Steed, Heavy Armor, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Pendant of Khaeleth, Caledor’s Bane
243 points

Master
Battle Standard Bearer, Dark Steed, Lance, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Heavy Armor, Seal of Ghrond
161 points

Sorceress
2x Dispel Scrolls
150 points

24x Dark Elf Warriors
Shields, Full Command, War Banner
208 points

10x Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen
100 points

10x Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen
100 points

5x Dark Riders
85 points

5x Dark Riders
85 points

5x Harpies
55 points

5x Harpies
55 points

6x Cold One Knights
Full Command, Ring of Hotek, Standard of Slaughter
262 points

5x Shades
Great Weapons
90 points

14x Black Guard of Naggaroth
Full Command, Crimson Death, Standard of Hag Graef
277 points

Cold One Chariot
100 points

War Hydra
175 points

Reaper Bolt Thrower
100 points

Total: 2246 points

Best of luck to you. I hope this guide helped you plan out your army and may your raids be successful!


Any feedback is helpful.

Thanks in advance.

sainthale1988
21-04-2009, 09:58
just posting to sub. please ignore. will be back to ask question after i've read though the tactica to prevent going over covered ground

bob_the_small
21-04-2009, 10:17
Dreadlord
Dark Steed, Heavy Armor, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Pendant of Khaeleth, Caledor’s Bane
243 points

Master
Battle Standard Bearer, Dark Steed, Lance, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Heavy Armor, Seal of Ghrond
161 points

Sorceress
2x Dispel Scrolls
150 points

24x Dark Elf Warriors
Shields, Full Command, War Banner
208 points

10x Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen
100 points

10x Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen
100 points

5x Dark Riders
85 points

5x Dark Riders
85 points

5x Harpies
55 points

5x Harpies
55 points

6x Cold One Knights
Full Command, Ring of Hotek, Standard of Slaughter
262 points

5x Shades
Great Weapons
90 points

14x Black Guard of Naggaroth
Full Command, Crimson Death, Standard of Hag Graef
277 points

Cold One Chariot
100 points

War Hydra
175 points

Reaper Bolt Thrower
100 points

Total: 2246 points


I would bulk the black guard up to 18, get rid of 1 unit of DR and give the other unit xbows and a musician...

Shamfrit
28-04-2009, 12:23
So, I've been thinking about the versatility offered by 10 Man Corsair units with Repeater Handbows. I was initially running 10 Warriors, without shields, at 60 points per unit but the 45 point increase to run the Corsairs is too good to be true. I mean, 10 STR3 shots might not be the best missilee weapon ever, but on a body of LD8 troops with 4+ saves against shooting and 5+ in combat makes them good Large Target harassers, they've so far taken out a Shaggoth, and wounded a treeman :o

My question is, what are Corsair tacticss for MSU? I'm running a relatively balanced and non-cheesy list (as far as I'm aware) with a very strong counts as Corsair theme. I don't want to run big units of 20 as they're too expensive like that, so it's MSU all the way - any feedback/advice would be welcomed (and I secretly don't want to see this thread dissapear :))

Cousteau
04-05-2009, 02:42
Having such little magic defense at 2,000 points seems inadvisable--the ring of hotek doesn't work against everybody, and is tactically limiting.

Kalec
05-05-2009, 02:57
Corsairs are a waste compared to crossbowmen. They have the wonderful sea dragon cloaks, but handbows are painfully short-ranged and corsairs get shredded by most other troops that charge them. Repeaters have the range to be effective at cutting down lighter units while staying somewhat safe. Corsairs don't have a strong enough stand and shoot to discourage anyone.

Really, corsairs provide a lot of S3 attacks no matter how you gear them. Crossbowmen supply the same, with armor piercing, at a good range. You can run MSU corsairs if you want, but crossbows and warriors work better.

Genrazn
05-05-2009, 03:45
Do handbows give Corsairs a additional hand weapon like pistols?

sulla
05-05-2009, 05:25
Do handbows give Corsairs a additional hand weapon like pistols?
Unfortunately, no. otherwise you would probably see a lot more corsairs on the table.

Cousteau
10-05-2009, 02:05
Corsairs are a waste compared to crossbowmen. They have the wonderful sea dragon cloaks, but handbows are painfully short-ranged and corsairs get shredded by most other troops that charge them. Repeaters have the range to be effective at cutting down lighter units while staying somewhat safe. Corsairs don't have a strong enough stand and shoot to discourage anyone.

Really, corsairs provide a lot of S3 attacks no matter how you gear them. Crossbowmen supply the same, with armor piercing, at a good range. You can run MSU corsairs if you want, but crossbows and warriors work better.

Running Corsairs 7 wide with the Frenzy banner, you get 22 Hatred attacks. Corsairs have the capability of being an aggressive, light troop destroying unit in a way that I don't think crossbowmen are capable of.

MTUCache
10-05-2009, 02:20
Running Corsairs 7 wide with the Frenzy banner, you get 22 Hatred attacks. Corsairs have the capability of being an aggressive, light troop destroying unit in a way that I don't think crossbowmen are capable of.

True, but at that point you're essentially running armored witch-elves. You're going to dump 190 points into a unit of 14 Corsairs with full command and the Sea Serpent Standard. To get the same number of attacks out of a Witch Elf unit you could do it for as little as 70 points, or 140 if the back-rank is necessary.

I love the idea of Corsairs, and I love the models. I'll even give you the fact that they're not that much behind the Warriors in a combat/cost ratio. You could field them with little or no penalty in performance, so it's not like they're un-playable. They're just not quite as effective for the cost.

To me, it's as near a toss-up as you're going to get in your list. If you prefer the models and you like the idea of the Corsair unit, go ahead and run it. I don't think you'll be kicking yourself for it anytime soon...

Kalec
10-05-2009, 06:54
Running Corsairs 7 wide with the Frenzy banner, you get 22 Hatred attacks. Corsairs have the capability of being an aggressive, light troop destroying unit in a way that I don't think crossbowmen are capable of.

Corsairs do hit harder. You have to give them frenzy, tack on a standard that increases their VPs by 50%, and have to get into close combat, but yes they do hit harder. The question is: are they worth it?

Eumerin
10-05-2009, 08:02
True, but at that point you're essentially running armored witch-elves.

Armored Witch Elves that don't get poison. I think I'll stick with my witches.

The biggest issues with Corsairs, imo, is that their most distinctive abilities simply don't work against some of the most popular armies these days. The "you can't flee as far" special rule is neat - until you consider that there are popular armies composed of nothing but troops that don't run away. The SDC provides an extra bonus against shooting... but there are plenty of armies that ignore shooting completely. If you're playing against VC, for instance, then Witch Elves effectively do everything that the Corsairs do even with the Sea Serpent Banner - and more.

If people like to play shooting armies in your gaming group, then Corsairs might be worth it. But otherwise, the witches seem like a much better bargain.

Cousteau
10-05-2009, 20:31
True, but at that point you're essentially running armored witch-elves. You're going to dump 190 points into a unit of 14 Corsairs with full command and the Sea Serpent Standard. To get the same number of attacks out of a Witch Elf unit you could do it for as little as 70 points, or 140 if the back-rank is necessary.

I love the idea of Corsairs, and I love the models. I'll even give you the fact that they're not that much behind the Warriors in a combat/cost ratio. You could field them with little or no penalty in performance, so it's not like they're un-playable. They're just not quite as effective for the cost.

To me, it's as near a toss-up as you're going to get in your list. If you prefer the models and you like the idea of the Corsair unit, go ahead and run it. I don't think you'll be kicking yourself for it anytime soon...

Paying 50 points for a 4+ Save against shooting and the slavers rule seems pretty good to me. The Corsairs provide a little bit of survivability in an army that lacks it for the most part--they don't have to be hidden in the same way Witch Elves do. Even in versus an army that has no shooting, the Corsairs are going to have the stamina to get through more combats than Witch Elves because Witch Elves have no armor whatsoever.

Eumerin
10-05-2009, 20:50
Paying 50 points for a 4+ Save against shooting and the slavers rule seems pretty good to me. The Corsairs provide a little bit of survivability in an army that lacks it for the most part--they don't have to be hidden in the same way Witch Elves do. Even in versus an army that has no shooting, the Corsairs are going to have the stamina to get through more combats than Witch Elves because Witch Elves have no armor whatsoever.

Whereas the Witches don't have to buy a magic standard to get an extra attack. And they also get poison. The one time I tried it, my Witches took down an Engine of the Gods largely due to poison (it took two rounds of combat, and I only had 4 out of the original 12 still alive at the end... but I won). The extra opportunity to wound afforded by poison coupled with the sheer volume of attacks that Witches get gave me the edge that I needed to win the melee.

Witch Elves are glass cannons, pure and simple (the ultimate example of this being Hellebron herself) - albeit stubborn glass cannons if they're close enough to the Cauldron. Corsairs are still offensively oriented, but not to the degree of Witch Elves (even with the standard, since they don't have poison). And the Corsairs have a chance (albeit a low one) of making an armor save that isn't available to a Witch.

It's a trade-off, and as I see it against the more powerful armies these days the Witches are the better option.

Though depending on how popular rampaging bands of skinks with poisoned blow darts become, the pendulum may start to swing back toward Corsairs.

deggaroth
10-05-2009, 22:44
When it comes down to making a choice between corsairs and witch elves, I go with the frenzied corsairs. My chief reason for doing this is because the models look so freaking cool, but I do not think it hurts me at all tacically.

Witch elves may have poison, but they die very easily due to no armor. The corsairs save may not be spectacular, but it definitely makes a significant difference against the low S, low T opponents that these units should be fighting in the first place. Furthermore, the slavers rule has proven to be invaluable, especially when you team them up with some uber unit such as a hydra. Finally, if you want to make them really nasty and surprise your opponent at the same time, just take a cauldron; 22 Kb attacks, anyone? ;)

In the end, we could argue all day about wether Corsairs or WE are better, since though both units are good, they are not spectacular, and they both have their glaring weaknesses. As a result of this, my advice to the new players reading this is to pick the unit which you think looks cooler.

Eumerin
11-05-2009, 07:31
Witch elves may have poison, but they die very easily due to no armor. The corsairs save may not be spectacular, but it definitely makes a significant difference against the low S, low T opponents that these units should be fighting in the first place. Furthermore, the slavers rule has proven to be invaluable, especially when you team them up with some uber unit such as a hydra.

As I've stated more than once, the biggest armies these days don't care about your slaver rule. They never break, so they never run and your slaver rule does nothing for you. And it seems as if just about every other army out there has some way to make units unbreakable or find some other way to dodge the results of the combat table.

My running ironic joke is that the high Ldr stat on the DE means that they're one of the few armies that actually has to take break tests.

(not entirely true, I know, but by and large the most popular armies fit with that quip)

And in my experience, the 5+ save is largely inconsequential. It's not until you get to the next rung down (i.e. 4+) that I actually start to notice armor saves doing much good (particularly with all of the S4 models running around).



Finally, if you want to make them really nasty and surprise your opponent at the same time, just take a cauldron; 22 Kb attacks, anyone? ;)

You can do that with Witch Elves, too. AND make them stubborn, to boot.

kyussinchains
11-05-2009, 21:16
You can do that with Witch Elves, too. AND make them stubborn, to boot.

true although in that case, the poisoned attacks of the witch elves actually works against the effects of the cauldron, each poisoned wound scored cannot score a killing blow, so approx 1/3 of their total hits (assuming a 4+ to hit, it's 1/4 if they need 3's) can't score a killing blow, which is certainly not an inconsequential amount.....

WhiteLion
11-05-2009, 22:26
Seems to me that if you take the Cauldron, WE are the better choice by far.

Other than that, I think WE are the slightly better choice, provided you have the special slot available.

Corsairs may be slightly more flexible (in a tournament sense or when you don't know what you are facing), due to a better armor save, which isn't insignificant considering all the str 3 + 4 shooting and magic missiles. Then again, I don't know that corsairs or witch elves are high priority for shooting compared to other elements of the dark elf list.

Having said that, I play both DE and HE, and I like the corsairs for model purposes, as well as the fact that they are a bit of a "stealth" unit. They tend not to be targeted for shooting. They also appear weaker than my other units so it's also a good place for an assassin.

Cousteau
11-05-2009, 23:27
Ultimately I think it comes down to a difference in play style. If you're going to have them screened by something and tethered to within 12" of the Cauldron and somehow stop them from charging outside of that range, then they are stubborn. Really though, I don't see why you would want them being stubborn to ever make a difference--if they lose combat, they lose frenzy. The other benefits of the Cauldron benefit the Corsairs at least as much as the Witch Elves, possibly more because of the poisoned attacks/killing blow clash.

With the Corsairs, you pay a bit more, lose poisoned attacks, but get a more durable offensive unit that can pursue quite well, taking up a core choice rather than one of our valuable special choices.

davidvonhauser
14-05-2009, 10:45
I'd like to throw a spanner in the works so to speak and deviate the topic to this question:

Does taking a unit of Executioners in combination with a cauldron of blood make (either of) them a viable choice?

Sorry if it's been raised before, I'm new to the druchii tactica, but I have read through most of the early pages and noticed both of these choices getting a bad rap. I'm looking at building a DE army in lieu of the new plastics rumor and want to explore all options.

At this stage I'll probably follow advice and go with the Black Guard as a hammer choice, but I'll be damned if those executioner models aren't brilliant... and worth considering on that point alone. (I also have an oldschool cauldron of blood model which I built for fun collecting dust).

So again my question, would these two units work well together? Assuming all the necessary buffs were applied to the Executioners... you'd need to drop a battle standard in there to grab the banner of hag grief of course, although as far as I'm aware this is popular to do with BG anyway?

sulla
14-05-2009, 11:29
I'd like to throw a spanner in the works so to speak and deviate the topic to this question:

Does taking a unit of Executioners in combination with a cauldron of blood make (either of) them a viable choice?



Yes and no. Exies with an extra attack on the charge will rip through almost anything in the game (notable exceptions are strikes first troops of course).

But stubborn doesn't really help them at all. If they lose a round of combat, the odds are they will lose every subsequent round too being strikes last troops. (you could forgo the great weapons, buth then you might as well have fielded black guard instead). Also, what with daemons, undead and WoC knights being so common, as well as other fear causers out there, odds are you will need double ones to hold anyway.

But as always with the cauldron, the real benefit is that you choose where to apply the gift. You wouldn't waste it on executioners unless there was a good chance they would get to charge. A cauldron is a solid choice in nearly any DE army.

Executioners are a little more tricky...

Havock
14-05-2009, 11:38
Seems to me that if you take the Cauldron, WE are the better choice by far.

Other than that, I think WE are the slightly better choice, provided you have the special slot available.

Corsairs may be slightly more flexible (in a tournament sense or when you don't know what you are facing), due to a better armor save, which isn't insignificant considering all the str 3 + 4 shooting and magic missiles. Then again, I don't know that corsairs or witch elves are high priority for shooting compared to other elements of the dark elf list.

Well, considering that corsairs with a frenzy banner will likely go straight through a lot of gunline units, it doesn't really matter if they decide to ignore it. With M5 you can be at his throat soon enough to make him regret it.

PeeKay
14-05-2009, 16:34
Question about the Black Guard -
The army book profile has the Black Guard with special rule of Warrior Elite and looking up the rule and it reads just like eternal hatred against HE. Have I missed a word or is it the same rule?

(Warrior Elite: The Black Guard may re-roll any failed roll to hit in combat)

Witchblade
14-05-2009, 17:35
Eternal hatred is just against high elves.

bob_the_small
14-05-2009, 17:43
warrior elite : re-rolls against everyone every round...
hatred : re-rolls against everyone in 1st round of combat.. (except HE, which is every round...)

WhiteLion
14-05-2009, 20:26
Question about the Black Guard -
The army book profile has the Black Guard with special rule of Warrior Elite and looking up the rule and it reads just like eternal hatred against HE. Have I missed a word or is it the same rule?

(Warrior Elite: The Black Guard may re-roll any failed roll to hit in combat)

In essence, yes. The blackguard really don't gain a benefit from Eternal Hatred when playing HE as they already reroll every round.

However, there is one major difference. If blackguard come into contact with the Standard of Balance (which removes Hatred and Eternal Hatred) then the black guard are still rerolling misses because of the warrior elite rule.

Caine Mangakahia
14-05-2009, 21:27
Are Black Guard Initialive 5 or 6?

Norngahl
14-05-2009, 21:44
6. Thats why they kill HE with ease.

davidvonhauser
14-05-2009, 21:52
Yes and no. Exies with an extra attack on the charge will rip through almost anything in the game (notable exceptions are strikes first troops of course).

But stubborn doesn't really help them at all. If they lose a round of combat, the odds are they will lose every subsequent round too being strikes last troops. (you could forgo the great weapons, buth then you might as well have fielded black guard instead). Also, what with daemons, undead and WoC knights being so common, as well as other fear causers out there, odds are you will need double ones to hold anyway.

But as always with the cauldron, the real benefit is that you choose where to apply the gift. You wouldn't waste it on executioners unless there was a good chance they would get to charge. A cauldron is a solid choice in nearly any DE army.

Executioners are a little more tricky...

Ok. Fair points.

I was thinking of fielding them with a BSB w/ the standard of hag grief, though. So they would in fact have ASF (negating their strike last great weapons). And then perhaps being stubborn wouldn't be such a bad thing for them.

Although this is, perhaps, a little 'eggs in one basket' ish - being able to give BG the banner without using a BSB - but I think it might form a solid defensive core (with warriors to support).

davidvonhauser
16-05-2009, 03:53
Hmm the more I look at it the more it all just seems like a big hassle to make executioners work.

*big sigh* the models are so good but I think I'll be sticking with the safe option of Black Guard

Kalec
16-05-2009, 15:59
It's even worse when you realize they can't take a master as their BSB, they'll need that frenzied idiot called a death hag.

Cousteau
16-05-2009, 20:32
A unit of 7 Executioners as a support unit (like an Empire detachment without the detachment rules) seems like it could be interesting.

davidvonhauser
17-05-2009, 13:35
That could be an option - but it would take up a special slot, and would go down rather fast, and isn't a detachment meant to be cheap?

I think I'd rather use 10 'naked' spearmen for that.

sulla
18-05-2009, 20:47
That could be an option - but it would take up a special slot, and would go down rather fast, and isn't a detachment meant to be cheap?

I think I'd rather use 10 'naked' spearmen for that.

DE are expensive enough, I doubt you will be using all your special slots anyway... so the slot argument shouldn't really be too relevant.

As for 10 naked spearmen vs exies... you do save points, and they are more resistant to magic missiles and shooting due to numbers, but hitting a unit of knights in the flank with half a dozen 6s hatred ws5 infantry is sufficiently dangerous that your opponent has to react to it. They don't always have to do the same vs 10 warriors.

davidvonhauser
19-05-2009, 13:47
Hmm true enough.

Ok good. I will buy some executioners.

:D

Cousteau
19-05-2009, 20:23
Cool. 7 Execs with a musician is just 90 points, but packs a significant threat, especially against enemies who can't shoot them. Don't forget their killing blow :)

Witchblade
19-05-2009, 21:02
DE are expensive enough
This is the first time I've ever heard that.

kaubin
20-05-2009, 00:24
out of curiosity what does BSB stand for? Sorry for the newb question :S

Dark Apostle197
20-05-2009, 00:32
Someone upgraded with a battle standard. In the Dark Elves' case it would be either a death hag or a noble.

Cats Laughing
20-05-2009, 00:33
Battle Standard Bearer. A toughness 3, 2 wound (for Dark Elves) model that screams shoot me/kill me due to the magic banner they usually carry and the reroll to break tests they give to friendly units within 12"

Edit: forgot about the extra VP they give away if captured, and the extra combat resolution they provide in combat (as more reasons they have a target on their head)

kaubin
20-05-2009, 02:11
Ah, thanks, I just found it in the army book ;)
Hadn't seen that asterix :S

VeriNasti
20-05-2009, 06:13
What banner do you normally give the BSB? I normally go for the hydra banner on COK or Blak Guard

davidvonhauser
20-05-2009, 06:49
I normally wouldn't give him a banner. Most of the high point banners in the DE's book are terrible. Better to use him for other magic items that buff your army / debuff the enemy (the ring). Or even to load him up with protection items and use him to take challenges - holding the enemy in combat for longer (perhaps in a big block of spearmen).

Cousteau
20-05-2009, 19:59
A Dark Elf Master BSB on a Cold One with heavy armor, hand weapon, shield, sea dragon cloak, and the Pendant of Kaeleth has a 0+ save in close combat and then the special ward save, providing +1 combat resolution to his unit and allowing a re-roll of break tests within 12".

Or you could switch the cold one for a dark steed, put him in a ranked up spearmen unit with the warbanner and likely have a static combat resolution of +7.

kardar233
20-05-2009, 22:51
You can't get parry bonus while mounted, so it'd be max AS 1+, but that's still awesome. I can't think of any army outside of Warriors and Lizardmen that can get a 1+ save with only mundane items.

davidvonhauser
21-05-2009, 04:51
Great thing about putting him in a unit of spearmen is that you can give the spearmen standard bearer the war banner and leave your BSB open for other magic items.

VeriNasti
22-05-2009, 01:44
You can't give BSB the pendant though, can you?
Awesome combo though

blueon462
22-05-2009, 02:10
You can't give BSB the pendant though, can you?
Awesome combo though

As long as he doesnt have a magic banner he can have magic items as usual.

VeriNasti
22-05-2009, 10:48
never knew that, cool

davidvonhauser
26-05-2009, 01:59
New discussion:

What would be the best way to use cold one knights?

I mean I'm sure people love loading them up with banners and champion items to increase their kill factor - but at 27 ppm they're already quite expensive and from my experience they go down rather quickly to magic and shooting (and are usually a high priority target). Added to that the factor of stupidity and the chance they'll be sitting pretty with big red SHOOT ME signs on their foreheads.

But don't get me wrong I do want to use them (the models are too lovely not to)...

I would want the enemy to think that they should be high priority, whilst keeping their points to a minimum - a unit of 5 and nothing more. That's only 135 points - which still presents a significant threat to flanks, but leaves points open for other nasties and won't harm your battle plans too much if it goes down.

Or, if you wanted a little bit more umph as well as protection - you could include a champion with a null talisman, although I'm not sure if that would be worth it.

Thoughts?

Draconian77
26-05-2009, 02:09
You can't get parry bonus while mounted, so it'd be max AS 1+, but that's still awesome. I can't think of any army outside of Warriors and Lizardmen that can get a 1+ save with only mundane items.

Empire Hero/Lord with Full Plate Mail, Barded Steed and a Shield?

Pendant BSB's are excellent, no doubt about it. The big question is whether or not to mount him on a Cold One, you get a better save and immunity to Fear but you gain Stupidity. Personally I run my BSB on foot with the Pendant, the Blood armour, a Sea Dragon Cloak and a Great Weapon. He hides in the ASF-Guard.

6 CoKs would be better than 7. Either keep them within range of the Ring or give them a Champion with the Ring. Screen with Harpies or Spearelves(slows you down but they are cheap and fill your core requirements) Anything that gets through the Ring could be dispelled normally.

You dont really need the Champions, most Knight Champions are a little too pricey for 1 extra A, you don't really need the Musician either and the Standard Bearer is optional. My rule of thumb would be Standard Bearer+Warbanner or no Standard Bearer at all.

Kalec
26-05-2009, 02:59
Musician is a must for any cavalry unit. Cold One Knights are no exception.

davidvonhauser
26-05-2009, 05:39
I thought if they went below 5 models they couldn't rally anyway, so if they're running - they aint coming back.

Or am I wrong and it's 5 'unit strength'? In that case then yes a musician would be needed.

sulla
26-05-2009, 06:15
My rule of thumb would be Standard Bearer+Warbanner or no Standard Bearer at all.

Banner of murder is pretty good too. Nice to have cold ones attacking with -2 to armour save.

The banner of murder is almost a must-have in whichever unit you will have a fighter character. -4 is not too much armour modifier when charging chaos knights or trying to kill vampire characters.

danny-d-b
26-05-2009, 06:30
quick question

considering both deamons and vamps work best magic heavy, isn't that the case as well for dark elves?
I mean if you turn up with 10 levels of magic (with 12 Pd) with the power of darkenss spell you should be able to stand at the back and pound people to death with magic? through in a few goddies like the dagger, the black staff, the focus familar and the tome and you have a very nasty magic force which thanks to power of darkness should be able to knock out enermy forces very quickly!

Draconian77
26-05-2009, 06:39
I thought if they went below 5 models they couldn't rally anyway, so if they're running - they aint coming back.

Or am I wrong and it's 5 'unit strength'? In that case then yes a musician would be needed.

I think the rule is if you're under 25% of your starting number of models then you can't rally but I don't have the book to hand.

@Sulla

I can't put the Banner of Murder on the Cold One Knights because its on my second unit of BG which have an Assassin inside them more often than not. With 5-7 S4 Armour Piercing Killing Blow attacks and 13 S4 Armour Piercing Attacks its a nasty little unit. Also, I do generally break through with my Cold One Knights on the charge and the S6 is normally enough to negate saves or make them horribly difficult for my opponent to pass.

@danny-d-b

You can indeed, combined with Harpies, Dark Riders, Crossbowmen, Shades and Bolt Throwers you never even have to get your hands dirty.9Well, you do have to pick up the dice...) But no army is perfect and it has its plenty of weak spots to balance out its strong points. Out of all the books in the game though I do feel that the DE can make a really nice mobile missile army.

danny-d-b
26-05-2009, 07:13
@danny-d-b

You can indeed, combined with Harpies, Dark Riders, Crossbowmen, Shades and Bolt Throwers you never even have to get your hands dirty.9Well, you do have to pick up the dice...) But no army is perfect and it has its plenty of weak spots to balance out its strong points. Out of all the books in the game though I do feel that the DE can make a really nice mobile missile army.

well I was thinking combat as well, with assainsins being my ACR 'heros' and of cource everyones favorate ASF blackguard!

isn't intresting though that the two har greaf units can't take the banner of har greaf, always stikeing first execusioners makes them worth will right?

Draconian77
26-05-2009, 07:28
well I was thinking combat as well, with assainsins being my ACR 'heros' and of cource everyones favorate ASF blackguard!

isn't intresting though that the two har greaf units can't take the banner of har greaf, always stikeing first execusioners makes them worth will right?


Hmm...even with the ASF banner I dislike Execs, also the fact that they cannot take the ASF standard on the unit(only allowed a 25pt banner) and cannot be joined by a Master Bsb(not Khainite) really puts a damper on things. A Bsb Hag is just not worth running a lot of the time, T3 and no save is just too frail...

danny-d-b
26-05-2009, 07:38
Hmm...even with the ASF banner I dislike Execs, also the fact that they cannot take the ASF standard on the unit(only allowed a 25pt banner) and cannot be joined by a Master Bsb(not Khainite) really puts a damper on things. A Bsb Hag is just not worth running a lot of the time, T3 and no save is just too frail...

yep but if the banner allowence was put up to 35 points would they be taken insted of black guard?

davidvonhauser
26-05-2009, 07:53
They wouldn't be quite as good...

No Stubborn Ld9 (variable 8 instead) and no immune to psychology.

But I think it would be near enough for most people to take them based purely on the awesome models - myself included.

But that's all what ifs and from the discussion we recently had here on the page before it was concluded that they aren't worth taking beyond a 7 strong flanking punch.

Malice&Mizery
02-06-2009, 01:30
'Tis a damn shame, I love the Executioner models.

Still, it's enough reason to take them in friendly games, right? :)

So what do we think of Witch Elves? I'm really taken into using the Crone in the near future and want to include a few units.

Draconian77
02-06-2009, 02:09
My view on Witch Elves is that they are a decent unit but in the wrong army!

My reasoning would be roughly as follows;

They are an elite fighting unit who are best at killing low T, low armour foes.

The problem here is that everything in the DE list is at least decent against low T, low armour foes. What you need from an elite unit is really some armour busting potential.

However, certain things can really aid them, a Cauldren giving them Killing Blow when they are 6-7 wide is quite nasty for example. I would only ever run units of say 10-ish, leave 6-7 in the front rank and the remainder get the glorious role of "arrow fodder".

Maybe an Assassin could hide in the unit with +D3 attacks and KB to deal with any Knights that try to charge them? I just don't really have enough experience with WE's to be of much help.

No armour and Frenzy hurt, but the no armour thing applies to most of our units and Frenzy is easy enough to cope with in the avergae DE list.

Malice&Mizery
02-06-2009, 02:16
So what would you say is a reliable armour busting unit in our army?

I don't wanna hear anything more about Black Gaurd by the way :p I know they're made of pure win.

I just wish they weren't metal.

Well, my main opponant likes to use Orcs and Goblins, so I figured WE's would be pretty good vs them.

VeriNasti
02-06-2009, 05:11
WE are generally good against horde armies - 4 poisoned attacks each!
Executioners are good against elite armies - killing blow

What makes BG better though is that they can do both effectively and are immune to psycholohy and stubborn, get two attacks each with re roll to hits. By giving them the ASF banner they are Over powered.

Overall, i find executioners, COK, RBT and hydra's best to take down high armour foes

Eumerin
02-06-2009, 06:31
They are an elite fighting unit who are best at killing low T, low armour foes.

Not quite...

They are an elite fighting unit who are best at killing low armor foes of any toughness. Remember that they have poisoned attacks, which means that if you're throwing enough dice to hit (particularly with Hatred on the first round of combat), you're guaranteed to get a decent number of wounds from poison. It's the subsequent armor saves that will cancel out all of your earlier good rolls.

I took down an Engine of the Gods using just a dozen Witch Elves (note - I also had the Cauldron provide an extra attack). It took two rounds of combat and cost me two-thirds of my unit (the Engine itself actually killed most of the witches during his magic phase), but it was definitely worth it points-wise.

sulla
02-06-2009, 06:57
yep but if the banner allowence was put up to 35 points would they be taken insted of black guard? Both exies and witch elves would be far closer in utility to BG then. The banner makes both the unit and any attached characters ASF so it makes hags joined to the unit ASF too. I'm sure you would see both witches and exies more often in players armies if both had access to the banner. A real missed opportunity by GW IMO.

And if death hags could use talismans and enchanted items too...you could even get magic protection for a khaine themed army.

Draconian77
02-06-2009, 15:11
Not quite...

They are an elite fighting unit who are best at killing low armor foes of any toughness. Remember that they have poisoned attacks, which means that if you're throwing enough dice to hit (particularly with Hatred on the first round of combat), you're guaranteed to get a decent number of wounds from poison. It's the subsequent armor saves that will cancel out all of your earlier good rolls.



Good point.

Quick question, the Banner of Murder gives a unit Armour Piercing attacks, if a character with the Crimson Death joins the unit he strikes at S6 and Ap, does the Banner have any effect on the Lifetaker at all? It doesn't say Ap in close combat, but I'm sure there is something preventing it from working on the Lifetaker.

Unfortunately my head is doind whirls around some logical arguments for both sides, can some please calrify this matter for me. :D

EDIT: Nevermind, that clearly doesn't work...

fubukii
02-06-2009, 19:44
the problem is dark elf magic isnt as effective as Daemon or vc magic thats why people dont go magic heavy

chill wind is decent
Doombolt is ok
Bladewind is kinda meh
word of pain is good
Soul stealer and black horror ae pretty good.
so if you get the high spells you will do great but if not your mages are kinda iffy, unlike VC and DOC mages who either pick thier spells/ just spam thier defaults.

as opposed to
Invocation , awesome
raise dead, awesome
vanhels game breaking
Curse of years good
Gaze good
Winds of undeath decent/good
Summon undead horde decent.

Draconian77
03-06-2009, 02:38
Some people do go magic heavy because they don't see the value of 3 attacks for a couple of turns, etc, etc.

But to me, Dark Elf magic is just too expensive. You need about 10 PD to have an effective magic phase or so they say, and to get to that number you would need at least a Lv3 and 2 Lv2's, thats a good 700pts on models that die if sneezed at!

I would much prefer if mages in WHFB had more support spells and only limited damage dealing spells, but cost a lot less.

I also find that some of the prices for mage's are a bit strange, 100pts for a Lv1 Sorceress or 100pts for a level 2 Empire mage? Neither of them have good leadership or fighting capabilities, but when it comes to magic one is clearly superior.

Now, with higher I, M and Ld I guess the Elf mage should cost more, but not by the 35pts that she does.

sulla
03-06-2009, 04:54
I also find that some of the prices for mage's are a bit strange, 100pts for a Lv1 Sorceress or 100pts for a level 2 Empire mage? Neither of them have good leadership or fighting capabilities, but when it comes to magic one is clearly superior.


But our characters are not the only one who are overpriced in the game. A lot of the time, options are massively discounted while the base characters are overpriced. Take slaaneshi heralds; no armour, t3 and a 5+ ward. ASF but only on s4, there is no way she should cost 90pts. Yet the siren ability for her is massivly discounted at only 25. Or khorne heralds; Even more expensive than the slaaneshi, no armour, t4 and 3 s6 attacks. He shouldn't cost what he does either, but getting a juggernaut for only 50pts suddenly turns him into a bargain too. Same when you compare the price of a naked human captain to a dwarf thane and his free armour or the price HE pay for their great weapons compared to what humans do.

Draconian77
03-06-2009, 13:30
But our characters are not the only one who are overpriced in the game. A lot of the time, options are massively discounted while the base characters are overpriced. Take slaaneshi heralds; no armour, t3 and a 5+ ward. ASF but only on s4, there is no way she should cost 90pts. Yet the siren ability for her is massivly discounted at only 25. Or khorne heralds; Even more expensive than the slaaneshi, no armour, t4 and 3 s6 attacks. He shouldn't cost what he does either, but getting a juggernaut for only 50pts suddenly turns him into a bargain too. Same when you compare the price of a naked human captain to a dwarf thane and his free armour or the price HE pay for their great weapons compared to what humans do.

I'm not sure if things like the Siren being massively discounted are intentional, I'm much more a fan of the "GW don't know what they are doing when they price units." school of thought. (For example, Flamers, Executioners, the "bad" SC's, Empire Halberdiers, Forsaken, etc, etc)

The point being, most armies can get the same number as PD/DD as a DE Sorceress for less points. Thats all I'm saying. I don't even care if thats good/bad/fair/unfiar or purple! But it does make me shy away from loading up on magic, although I also like to have a lot of units on the field so really its the two reasons combined.

mightymconeshot
03-06-2009, 14:51
How do you use harpiesm read the tactica and still don't understand. I am a new player slowly putting my army. I still playing 40k so any advice is welcome on the differences

VeriNasti
04-06-2009, 00:27
You will commonly use harpies for screening like DR, harrassing flanks or attacking enemy war machines. As they are flyers they can do this very easily.

The difference to this and 40K is that it is a lot more variable with your armies - different lores, magical gear, etc

Hope this helps

Dark Apostle197
04-06-2009, 02:31
I use both harpies and DR. 2 units of 5 for each type. Harpies are good for fitting into tight places, getting there slightly faster, and now have to go around stuff.

DR are a little more killier and can negate ranks. One use I found for them over harpies is against frenzied armies. You can angle them so the enemy has to rank up and overun away from the rest of the fighting. Can't do this with harpies.

Actually happened the other day. Realized playing against Frenzied armies is fun lol, being all deceptive(not in RL, but like it would be in the fantasy world) and split army up taking it piece by piece with little loss.

mightymconeshot
04-06-2009, 14:40
How do they screen. They block your own one of sight so you can't charge or shoot either

Dark Apostle197
04-06-2009, 23:35
All things that can screen do that though...

ashc
05-06-2009, 10:24
Hi guys,

A couple of year's back I was running a rather successful Dark Elf army and, having sold it back then, have been considering putting it back together. The list looked something like this:

Lord on Black Dragon with some magic item loadout
Level 2 Sorceror with dispel scroll and Tome
Level 2 Sorceror with dispel scroll and Cloak
20 Spearelves with FC, Shields, and a sorceror
20 Corsairs, FC, with the other sorceror
2 x 10 RXB Elves with Shields and Musicians
2 x 6 Dark Riders with RXBs and a Musician
2 x Reaper Bolt Throwers

Basically the list worked around using the Dragonlord fairly aggressively early game and the shooting to force my enemy to come closer, worked an awful lot. What do people think to this lists viability in the new book? - I would imagine there may even be a few points spare for a unit of harpies or shades nowadays.

Ash

Draconian77
05-06-2009, 12:09
It will work, although I'm not a fan of Corsairs myself. You could chuck in a small unit of BG instead, with the Ld10 Dreadlord flying around any Panic checks on your Sorcs would be on Ld8 and that's too risky in my opinion.

I guess you could just use the Pearl of Infinate Bleakness...

The Dragon is better these days(benefits from Hatred), the Dark Riders and Spear Elves are cheaper, the RxB has slightly more punch and Bolt Throwers are still reliable war machines if a tad overpriced.

You will probably be playing one Sorc with the Cloak and another with the Dagger if you plan on running her in the Spear Elves. This could give you about 9 PD worth of spells from 2 Lv2 mages, very nice.

ashc
05-06-2009, 13:35
Thanks for the reply Draco. I have been given a bunch of Dark Elf stuff from a friend already, so I potentially have the RXBs, some spearelves and a Reaper already, as well as sorceress. I also have been given 12 of the metal Corsairs, and figured it would be a nice thing to do to add some of the new ones. I can understand that people don't think much of Corsairs in comparison to spearelves but man spearelves are f ugly models, I have never had a problem using Corsairs in the past though, so I think I will stick with them, even if they are considered sub-par these days :)

Draconian77
06-06-2009, 09:41
To be honest I find the infantry units in the DE book to more supportive than downright aggressive anyway. For example if the Corsairs have the Sea Serpent Standard they have an effective 3 S3 attacks, that compares quite well to the Witch Elves or Black Guard.

They only thing that I would say is in a unit like that(lots of low S attacks) I would add an Assassin with Killing Blow and +D3 attacks. Now the unit can fight off characters, heavy cavalry and heavy infantry aswell. Expensive, but worth it in my opinion.

As a points saving exercise you could try cutting down on the unit size of the Corsairs, generally people like to run them 6 wide so that you can be making about 13(without Frenzy)/19 attacks(With Frenzy) per turn, so generally speaking again 18 should suffice rather than 20.

Frankly
06-06-2009, 10:04
.... Bolt Throwers are still reliable war machines if a tad overpriced.

.

Yeah, I still wonder about this.

I've played a few games with 4 x B.throwers over the last few days and I have a say I think they're a great unit ... that if used well and protected well are EASILY worth 100pts a pop.

Coming from a Empire MW back group when it comes to using MWs, DE have 2 real advantages when putting B.throwers into their lists. The first is in core troop selection DE have REALLY good supporting units in harpies and DRs, these units protect the Throwers and serve to funnel targets into LOS, they're very good units at stripping away meat shields and off course critical to MW harpies are great at march blocking.

So DE control table tops really well, B.Thrower are great good units to take advantage of this.

The second is that DE can make really nice defensive lists, even though I have to say that I think they're the best charge/assaulting armybook in the game at the moment, they're still able to tailor a list the really suits having B.Throwers as a core element within such the list. I'm finding that well wedged B.Throwers can do enough damage to enemy units assaulting the list that(generally)spearmen with good amounts of stactic CR is enough to win combats. Chuck in a ASF unit and a niche combat unit and you can make a list that gives the opponent really hard options to charge.


The thing I'll seen with B.Thrower is that some players don't:

Don't wedge them between unit and so give away VP's to easily with throwers.

Don't support them enough either with static CR or light support.

DON'T MARCH BLOCK.

Don't use the full length of their deployment zone.

Ofc using them badly or in an ineffective list really brings down they're ability to gain they're points back as a affective unit.

ashc
06-06-2009, 10:46
As a points saving exercise you could try cutting down on the unit size of the Corsairs, generally people like to run them 6 wide so that you can be making about 13(without Frenzy)/19 attacks(With Frenzy) per turn, so generally speaking again 18 should suffice rather than 20.

So a 6x3 arrangement seems a good option, yes? Sounds good to me, thanks for the tip. I was looking at buffing my original list to 2250pt. games anyway, so adding an assassin is a realistic possibility.

What else would be a good addition to this list? harpies? shades?

Ash

Draconian77
06-06-2009, 11:04
On the subject of Bolt Throwers; Well coming from recent games in which you have used 4 I think your opinion might be a bit warped, as in general, things are exponentially better the more of them you take.

But ignoring all other factors like tactics when using them, etc, etc, that we all know about you could just compare them to something like a Dwarf Bolt Thrower.

Our cost 55pts more, take a Rare slot, only have 2 T3 crew and aren't Stubborn.

As pros, we have the option to multi-shot and Bs4.

However, Bs4 sort of pales in comparison to 2 Bs3 shots and I'm not a big fan of multi-shot, anything that I can multi-shot to death I can Rxb or magic to death aswell. So mainly my Reapers are used for single shots through the flanks of units or to kill off things like Dragons and Wyverns.

They aren't bad units, I don't think anyone thinks that they are. But 100pts a pop seems a tad cheeky when compared to the Dwarf Bolt Thrower and sometimes Reapers are just plain useless, but then again most units in WHFB have their good matchups and their bad ones. I think both HE and DE players would like to see them cost more around the 85 mark.

As for the list ashc, both Shades and Harpies are great choices. If you're going to be using lots of magic and missile fire I would consider Harpies for march blocking, they can avoid units easier than the Shades can. They can also be used to take out war machines which stops war machines one-shoting your Dragon or your Bolt Throwers.

6x3 for the Corsairs and I think any character that joins the unit suffers from Frenzy aswell if they have the Sea Serpent Standard? Nice way to get the Assassin an extra attack if that is the case(but I don't have my book to hand so I can't verify) I really can't emphasize the importance of being ITP enough, too many things cause Fear these days and Ld8, whilst good, isn't reliable enough for your main combat block.

ashc
06-06-2009, 11:19
A points break on the Reapers would be rather nice, 100pts. does seem a little steep in the current meta.

Sounds like Harpies are the way to go!

In regards to making units ItP, I'm considering giving the sorceress sat in the Spearelf block the Pearl of Infinite Bleakness along with the Dagger, which would mean both my blocks are ItP (the corsairs would be from the Sea Serpent Standard's frenzy). Thoughts? - Less tests against leadership is certainly useful for an army where the Lord may be on the other side of the field, and if i remember correctly it means i can't panic my own unit using the Dagger!

Does anyone have a half-decent loadout for a Lord on Dragon this edition? - I'm not sure what to go with.

Ash

Draconian77
06-06-2009, 13:37
Well, by RAW the Potion of Strength gives the Dragon +3 Str for a turn aswell...unless that has been FAQ'ed since last time. Yeah...won't win you any friends though.

Hmm, maybe a Lance, Armour of Darkess, the Pendant of Khaeleth and the Lifetaker? Dragons can spend some turns out of combat and the Lifetaker can be a nice addition.

You could drop the Pendant and add the Ring of Darkness if you wanted, means its harder for Bolt Throwers to shoot the Dragon but leave the Dreadlords exposed.

You could drop the Lifetaker and add 2-3 Null Stones.

You could drop the lance and go with the Crimson Death. (You can't use a Shield but the AoD gives you a 1+ save anyway...)

A Lord on a Dargon is going to be good, no matter what you equip him with to be honest.

ashc
06-06-2009, 18:43
A Lord on a Dargon is going to be good, no matter what you equip him with to be honest.

Haha, yes, looking at the options you just listed it looks like there are a few different ideas! - Seems there are not many ways to go wrong.

Ash

silveryfox
06-06-2009, 19:05
I go heavy armor on my Dragon lord, with a Enchanted Shield and Pendent.

For killing I have Lance, Sword of Might and Potion of Strength.

Should probably roll with Armor of Darkness, but the Black Guard Master has that already...

deggaroth
06-06-2009, 19:18
the problem is dark elf magic isnt as effective as Daemon or vc magic thats why people dont go magic heavy

chill wind is decent
Doombolt is ok
Bladewind is kinda meh
word of pain is good
Soul stealer and black horror ae pretty good.
so if you get the high spells you will do great but if not your mages are kinda iffy, unlike VC and DOC mages who either pick thier spells/ just spam thier defaults.

as opposed to
Invocation , awesome
raise dead, awesome
vanhels game breaking
Curse of years good
Gaze good
Winds of undeath decent/good
Summon undead horde decent.

I think your assessment is fairly accurate. However, the one place i disagree with you is when it comes to a low points game, since I think DE magic goes from being fairly decent to just plain ungodly in a 1000-1500 pt game. The reason for this is because unlimited pd allows you to cast level 5 and 6 spells, something that most armies cannot do. For example, the other day I played a 1500 pt game against an empire gunline, where I took four levels of magic. With the amount of black horror, chillwinds and word of pain spells I threw at him, I almost didn't need the rest of my army.

Frankly
06-06-2009, 23:34
.... that we all know about you could just compare them to something like a Dwarf Bolt Thrower.



Yeah, but why would we, we're not playing them out of the dwarf armybook, but out of the DE armybook where we can support them with faster elements.

Comparing them to other B.Throwers is pretty general.

But, hey each to their own.

Draconian77
07-06-2009, 08:52
I go heavy armor on my Dragon lord, with a Enchanted Shield and Pendent.

For killing I have Lance, Sword of Might and Potion of Strength.

Should probably roll with Armor of Darkness, but the Black Guard Master has that already...

Why the Lance? Don't you always use your magical weapon if you have one so this guy always has to use his SoM?

@Frankly: Even if the DE book has quick march blockers like Harpies and Dark Riders(Dwarves do have the Gyro though) what about players that don't take those units?

I just don't think we should pay +55pts for +1 Bs, multi-shot, worse+less crew. No matter how you look at it that surely couln't be worth 55pts...

Still, seeing as how people say that things like the BG are underpriced I guess it will all balance out in the end.

Unless your a HE player, but as a rule they are all poncy bathrobe lovers who deserve to die horrible deaths...

Frankly
07-06-2009, 11:10
@Frankly: Even if the DE book has quick march blockers like Harpies and Dark Riders(Dwarves do have the Gyro though) what about players that don't take those units?

I just don't think we should pay +55pts for +1 Bs, multi-shot, worse+less crew. No matter how you look at it that surely couln't be worth 55pts...

...

but players do have those options, to take table top control units, which again I'll say are a key element to make your throwers work for you or atleast in this case get their points back. And part of the pricing will/should reflect that ... although GW and points valuing armybooks is ... huh hmmm dodgy. Yes dwarves have the option of gyros ... in their rare slots, DE have support in their core slots theres a big difference there.

I totally see your point if your looking at a points for points basis against a other armies Thrower, but I've chatted about that alright.

My point of my first post was to say that even though B.throwers are 100pts, imho you can easily make them cost effective on the top table, DE have the means to put them into certain armylists where the player can get the most out of their MWs.

Draconian77
07-06-2009, 19:54
I don't like your reasoning, thats all.

By your reasoning a Bloodthirster in a Dwarf army would be Ws4 and S4 T4 for the same amount of points as the normal one because it has all that shooting backing it up...(Exaggerated example but hopefully you see my point, even with the better support at some point a model becomes "useless" if it's too expensive for its abilities.)

They may have the option but what if they don't like the Harpy models or Dark Riders models? Just because they have the option to take them doesn't mean that they should or have to. Would you even need that many table top control units if you could just take 2x as many Reapers? ;)

Looking at a units performance within a book is ok, but due to the large differences between the books it is a horrible guide to base points on. Points should only be based on the unit itself.

It's true that the DE have their flyers in Core rather than Rare, but they don't fill the minimum requirment and the Gyro has lots of other things going for it, T5 and more importantly, a Steam Cannon! :D

xragg
07-06-2009, 20:40
Looking at a units performance within a book is ok, but due to the large differences between the books it is a horrible guide to base points on. Points should only be based on the unit itself.



No. Points should be based upon the book its from. Whatever is common for an army should be generally cheaper then it is for an army that it isnt common for, even if its exactly the same statline.

Why would dwarves ever buy a bolt thrower over a cannon if it cost more? Seige weapons are common for dwarves and therefore access (point cost) for them are much easier. You should be comparing the HE and DE bolt throwers anyway.

Frankly
07-06-2009, 20:47
I don't like your reasoning, thats all.



lol

Thats ok, I'm not to fond of yours, I'm coming totally from the other side of the coin where it doesn't matter whats in other armybooks, its how the MW can be played out of the DE armybook that should matter.

By the looks of things your beating around the bush and talking about anything but the B.Thrower and how to use it well, you seem intent to argue to prove yourself right more than go into details about B.Throwers.

But your right about one thing, you don't have to take light elements to back up MW's, but you haven't said WHY you shouldn't or wouldn't though ... why wouldn't you support your MW's, just seems like a silly argument not too.

'By my reasoning' .... blood thirster ???? .... now your digging for something that isn't there mate. Again all I'm saying is B.Throwers can perform to the standard of a 100pt unit in the game if used well and supported well. Don't put words into my mouth buddy. If your want to win a little debate that badly, then sure your right. DE B,throwers aren't effective for 100pts if you don't support them well and use them badly or if you compare them to dwarves, happy now.

Are you also saying now that DE B.throwers are is "useless" because its to exspensive? If not then whats the point of the bloodthrister example pertaining to B.Throwers, to needle me into believing that GW having trouble with points costing, although I've already said that before?

I'll state it once again, imho I think that if you provide your B.Throwers with a good supporting elelments or even support your list with well played B.throwers ... even better you combine both tactics then your reap the rewards of your effective B.Throwers, this makes them worth 100pts a pop. This isn't determanded by how effective other armybooks units are, this is only directly related to the performance of DE B.Throwers in a supporting list on the table top.

silveryfox
08-06-2009, 03:22
Personally I feel that the Elves' Bolt Throwers tend to shot Multiples (by my experience) with the OPTION of a single more powerful shot, when needed. You pay for the diversity.

sulla
08-06-2009, 04:47
Personally I feel that the Elves' Bolt Throwers tend to shot Multiples (by my experience) with the OPTION of a single more powerful shot, when needed. You pay for the diversity. You do, but in the 7th ed book, the multi shot of the RBT is even more overpriced because of the power of armour piercing crossbowmen at the cheap price they are now.

Basically, the only reason to include RBT's now is the single shot. If you want massed fire, you go for crossbows and double hydras. :evilgrin: