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MascisMan
13-12-2008, 18:26
The Doom Totem states that "enemy units with line of sight to the Doom Totem are at -1 leadership." Does this mean line of sight to the unit with the banner or the actual banner represented on the model?

nosferatu1001
13-12-2008, 18:33
The banner - it's stated in the rule text you quoted!

MascisMan
15-12-2008, 03:14
The banner - it's stated in the rule text you quoted!

Right but what is to stop someone from converting a standard bearer model and giving it a gigantic banner (say 10" tall) so that everything on the battlefield could see it?

Nurgling Chieftain
15-12-2008, 03:51
I don't think the height of the banner is technically relevant. It's not a large target, so it can't be seen over units.

KillbotFactory
15-12-2008, 06:15
Yes, thank god we are not playing 40k.

MasicMan, I suggest you go read the section about line of sight in the BRB.

Rodman49
15-12-2008, 06:29
I don't think the height of the banner is technically relevant. It's not a large target, so it can't be seen over units.

Never thought of that, but banners themselves aren't given an official large or small declaration. I would go RaI and say anything that can see the actual banner as affected.

Latro
15-12-2008, 07:09
Never thought of that, but banners themselves aren't given an official large or small declaration.

That's not needed because everything is classed "small" by default, only large models receive a specific rule.


:cool:

Condottiere
15-12-2008, 08:16
I'm quite sure it's by default a "small" target.

Lordmonkey
15-12-2008, 09:38
RAW it would be LOS to the standard bearer's base, since other bases block LOS to the model (unless it is a large target, which it isn't).

Goruax
15-12-2008, 16:39
I would go RaI and say anything that can see the actual banner as affected.

Quite honestly, I can say that your RaI in this case seems to be pretty...flawed.
Also, you're missing the point that models determine LOS by checking their bases and from levels of hills, not from TLOS like in 40K.

Shamfrit
15-12-2008, 16:52
Line of sight to the Battle Standard Bearer's base.

Careful note, it does not affect models in close combat (because LOS is affixed to the units they're in combat with) so doesn't help with Break Tests.

Harwammer
15-12-2008, 16:54
This is how I understand line of sight:

A warhammer table works as a series of 2 dimensional planes stacked on top of each other. The larger something is the more planes it occupies. Most units only occupy one plane, and can see things if they can draw an uninterupted line between itself and the target through a plane. Having the large target rule, or being on a hill are examples of situations where a unit may occupy more than one plane.

Condottiere
15-12-2008, 18:10
Something along those lines.

EvC
15-12-2008, 18:12
Line of sight to the Battle Standard Bearer's base.

Careful note, it does not affect models in close combat (because LOS is affixed to the units they're in combat with) so doesn't help with Break Tests.

Potentially it can, for example a Giant or other large target would still be able to see over its opponent (unless they're large too), or if the Totem bearer is on a hill. Being in combat doesn't necessarily block a unit's line of sight- it's just that usually it doesn't have line of sight anywhere because it's in combat.

Shamfrit
15-12-2008, 19:08
I disagree, although I don't dare to fathom how it interracts with large targets, a Unit in combat that is not large has no line of sight except to the unit it is fighting. It wouldn't matter if the Doom Totem was on a hill, the unit has no light of sight on either of the 'planes.'

EvC
15-12-2008, 19:26
The rules for line of sight are extremely clear and even simpler: if a unit has line of sight, then it has line of sight. If it doesn't, it doesn't. While I've seen a fair few people say that if a unit is in combat, it loses its line of sight (even to things it can see, like larget targets), there is absolutely no reason to think that (Beyond people illogically being unable to separate cause from effect). It's like being unable to cast while you're in combat, or units having 360 degree line of sight during deployment, or the re-rollable 2+ save my Vampire Lord has because it's a Tuesday: no such rule exists.

Just think... if I were to just ask, "Why doesn't that unit have line of sight to the model on the hill?", does "Because it's fighting in combat" sound like a reasonable response that explains why not? No, it doesn't :)

Shamfrit
15-12-2008, 19:32
I don't look up at a hill when I'm dying in droves to Halberds.

So, if a unit of 7 wide warriors had 3 knights in combat with it, but the Nurgle Sorceror on the end of the row wasn't in combat, that sorceror could still cast Buboes on a target?

EvC
15-12-2008, 19:37
Sure. Why not? If he has line of sight, he has line of sight! :D

Shamfrit
15-12-2008, 19:42
Meh,

Warriors keep getting better :D

EvC
15-12-2008, 19:55
Yep- I even wrote an army list for a mate to use against me in a future game, using the Doom Totem... let's hope he doesn't think to stick it on a hill :D

Rodman49
16-12-2008, 02:05
Quite honestly, I can say that your RaI in this case seems to be pretty...flawed.
Also, you're missing the point that models determine LOS by checking their bases and from levels of hills, not from TLOS like in 40K.

Why? I mean RaW sure normal LOS is used, but a dude with a banner should be able to be seen pretty far off - I mean the typical banner size is about as tall as a Greater Daemons (to their head). It makes more logical sense for the banner to be treated like a large target in this case . . .

Also I'd have to say when you are playing game and compare RaW with RaI you need to go with the option that is suitably more "epic." As a RaW interpretation goes the banner can only be seen by enemies to the front; and can't even be seen by friendlies in the third rank of the bearer's unit - and that sure as hell is not epic.

Necromancy Black
16-12-2008, 02:23
I honestly beleive that RAI, the doom totem works exactly as it should RAW. Your interpretation of RAI makes no sense using any game mechanic in place. If the doom totem or any banner made the model holding it a large target, yes it would work like that, except it would once again be straight RAW.

So, RAI it works by RAW.

Goruax
16-12-2008, 02:37
Your version of RaI is simply based in real life.
Warhammer is an abstract game.

The rules laid down make no exception for Banners, and thusly Banners follow all the normal LOS rules.
What is unclear??