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Nicha11
14-12-2008, 20:44
Personally i loath Fulgrim, he gets corrupted by a sword, goes arond butchering his friends because of a voice in his head.
And in the end he gets subjected to horrific confinement in his own body for an eternity.

There are only two words to describe this chap: EPIC FAIL

So what Primarchs do you hate?

totgeboren
14-12-2008, 20:54
There are only two words to describe this chap: EPIC FAIL


Seldom have those words rung so true. ^^

Everyone loves to hate Guilleman (sp?), but from the HH books its actually Mortarion that bugs me. Hes like, "Phear me cuz I got a high collar on my jacket, and i can drick icky stuff".... ?

I dunno, the way they portrayed him made him feel, well, just weird i guess. Not in the good way. The primarches are supposed to fill you with awe, and the way they portrayed Mortarion just didn't do it for me.

Macrus
14-12-2008, 20:58
I dont see whats wrong with Guilleman, just because he was really offical, did everything by the book, I think there good qualities to have. That still isnt a reason to hate him.

Macrus

Rockerfella
14-12-2008, 21:11
Hmmm. I don't particularly hate any Primarch. I think they're all kinda cool. However, if there's one that I like less than the others, its that big girls blouse, Fulgrim.

Edonil
14-12-2008, 21:12
Gulliman, and Lion El'Jonson (moreso the Lion...). Gulliman, cause I can't stand ultramarines, and can't stand him (indoctrination is something I really cannot stand, and he was all for it). The Lion, cause he's a backstabbing opportunist (read Angels of Darkness). Oh, and ditto on the Mortarion thing, he really is just kinda 'blah'

Norminator
14-12-2008, 21:16
Fulgrim, for turning almost into a drag queen over the course of Fulgrim. And then being able to bitch slap an avatar. Not cool.

Rockerfella
14-12-2008, 21:34
No, desperately not cool. So uncool in fact, that I actually squirmed through the whole Eldrad discourse knowing in advance what was to come.

At least Eldrad made him look silly verbally though. *shrugs* Thats something, I suppose.

Norminator
14-12-2008, 21:37
No, desperately not cool. So uncool in fact, that I actually squirmed through the whole Eldrad discourse knowing in advance what was to come.

At least Eldrad made him look silly verbally though. *shrugs* Thats something, I suppose.

Yes, Eldrad had the moral highground!

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
14-12-2008, 21:38
People who hate fulgr- og wait wrong thread :D

No but seriously, although i haven't read that many BL books (i.e only two, and none were about a primarch) i rather dislike what i have heard about Guilliman, i mean come on, blue chapter and indoctrination? Sheesh.

Rockerfella
14-12-2008, 21:45
Should just be 'people who hate'. Tis too strong a word for this gaming universe. I mean, c'mon... can't we all just get along? ;P

And, yeah.. Fulgrim is a big daisy, but hate him? Nooooo no no. To strong, too strong!


Yes, Eldrad had the moral highground!

AND, the intellectual superiority!! ;)

Sir_Turalyon
14-12-2008, 21:48
Rogal Dorn for being whiny wuss on whom all other primarchs picked whenever they wanted (his record include being beaten in personal combat by Night Haunter, beaten on battlefield by perturanbo, being intimidated into accepting Codex by guilmann, doing nothing special when Horus was killing Emperor and self-pitying himself along the way). The one noteworthy thing he accomplished was holding the Terra until Dark Angels and Space Wolves came to relieve him. There are primarchs with worse fluff out there (Fulgrim's treatment in late BL fanart was am epic fail, as already noted), but no worse excuse for primarch then Rogal Dorn.

devolutionary
14-12-2008, 21:54
May I advise that anyone who has an issue with indoctrination and plays Guard and/or Marines please sell their armies and go Ork? Because if you think that Guilliman was the only one with indoctrination, you're completely off your bloody rocker.

I personally dislike Sanguinus with a vengeance. Emo kid with a touch of baby bat and a whole lot of victim complex.

CaptainSenioris
14-12-2008, 22:00
Perturabo... someone that paranoid should have been cuffed round the head a long time ago.


Also Abidabidon has Horus pegged pretty well in that old quote.

Rockerfella
14-12-2008, 22:03
Abidabidwho??

Yamunori
14-12-2008, 22:13
i'm gonna have to go with lion el'johnson - him and the dark angels, they'll always be a bunch of traitors to me, I believe in what the fallen angel in 'angel of darkness' says

CaptainSenioris
14-12-2008, 22:17
Abidabidwho??

It's a joke name for Abaddon... say it aloud and it sounds about right. Kinda like Yabba dabba doo from the Flintstones.


I'll get my coat...

Phoebus
14-12-2008, 22:18
It's hard for me to hate the vast majority of the Primarchs precisely because most of them are tragic figures. Even Fulgrim is sympathetic in my eyes, since the worst things he does are beyond his control.

Angron I feel sort of ambivalent towards, since--regardless of the Emperor leaving his men to die--he was a butcher, pure and simple, and none of the descriptions he's gotten so far in the Horus Heresy books do anything to give him redeemable characteristics. One can honestly say that he was screwed the day he had those implants drilled into his head.

Mortarion is similarly on the balance, since I haven't seen enough about him to form a good or bad opinion. If he doesn't get some better treatment, soon, though, I will have to relegate him to the final category, below...

The only two I can genuinely say I don't like are Lorgar and, to a far lesser degree, Perturabo. The former because he has the weakest excuse for falling to Chaos (worship complex); the latter because it would appear he simply didn't have a good character. There are possibilities that he, too, was corrupted by a weapon gifted to him by Horus, though...


Gulliman, and Lion El'Jonson (moreso the Lion...). Gulliman, cause I can't stand ultramarines, and can't stand him (indoctrination is something I really cannot stand, and he was all for it). The Lion, cause he's a backstabbing opportunist (read Angels of Darkness).
Except that Gav Thorpe himself went on record to say that Angels of Darkness is NOT an objective look at how things happened. Astelan paints the Lion in the worst way but offers absolutely no proof other than his suspicions and conjecture. This is also the same guy who wiped out 75% of the population of the planet he landed on. :rolleyes:


Rogal Dorn for being whiny wuss on whom all other primarchs picked whenever they wanted (his record include being beaten in personal combat by Night Haunter, ...
To be fair, Konrad Curze/Night Haunter went nuts on him. It's not like Dorn--or anyone else--expected a fight to break out. It's been shown that Primarchs are powerful enough that they only need one good shot to put another Primarch down for the count. Hence Lion El'Jonson KO'ing Leman Russ with a surprise punch.

Firaxin
14-12-2008, 22:37
Hmm. I really like most of the Primarchs--I think that's the point, they're supposed to awe us. There are a few I'm displeased with, however.

Angron -- ANGERON. Not much more complex than that. Hell, he was even banished by a mere Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Perturabo -- He dilutes the awesomeness of Ferrus Manus and Rogal Dorn.

Horus -- For being dumb enough to let himself get wounded in the first place.

CaptainSenioris
14-12-2008, 22:40
ANGERON.

I think ANGRY-RON has a better ring to it.

Toramino
14-12-2008, 22:57
Angron and Leman Russ are the worst. Angron is incapable of anything more than simian grunts and HULK SMASH , i got irritated by this ***** even in the short time he was in the HH books so far. And leman russ is nothing more than a viking/nord in space gimmick

Rockerfella
14-12-2008, 22:58
Yeah, i've always been a user of 'Angry Ron'.

Lungboy
14-12-2008, 22:58
I think ANGRY-RON has a better ring to it.

Ron Atkinson is a Primarch? Say it ain't so! :)

Unamed Consript
14-12-2008, 23:10
the Ones i hate:
All of them that turned to Chaos.

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-12-2008, 23:17
May I advise that anyone who has an issue with indoctrination and plays Guard and/or Marines please sell their armies and go Ork? Because if you think that Guilliman was the only one with indoctrination, you're completely off your bloody rocker.

Truth.


I personally dislike Sanguinus with a vengeance. Emo kid with a touch of baby bat and a whole lot of victim complex.

Not so much. I'd like to see qualification. Emo? How? Baby bat? What, cause of the wings? Victim complex? ...and you called others off their rockers.


Hell, he was even banished by a mere Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

No, a hundred Grey Knights and a Grand Master.

As for me, I can look at any Primarch and think 'cool,' though certain writing-failures by GW (I mean... Fulgrim? Seriously. Next thing you know Horus will have gone MAD WIT POWA World of Warcraft style) diminish this somewhat.

I mean, let's look at who we've got.

Vulkan- Cool all around.

Roboute- OK, this guy bugs me. I'll admit it. He described a supremely successful campaign by an up-and-coming Primarch that inflicted maximum effect with minimal casualties in an unbelievably short time as "a waste of time and the Emperor's bolt shells" and in addition suggested that the Primarch in question use his preferred tactics, which were apparently 'lol Zergrush.' I mean, what more do I need to say?

Khan- Genghis Khan is awesome. Genghis Khan in Space is ten times more awesome.

Sanguinius- Don't even bother insulting this guy. He's cool on a stick.

Lion'el- Lots of reasons to both dislike and like. He's got a lot of potential ambiguity and mystery about him. Lots of narrative potential.

Russ- Hrmph. Letting yourself get manipulated by your own prejudices and a stock mustache-twirling villain twisting the words of your father = fail. Otherwise, cool enough.

Ferrus- Cool enough.

Dorn- Stick up his, but otherwise cool.

Corax- Cool. Tragic, but cool.

Horus- There are good and bad elements to his fall; some are blatant deus ex machina and others have real worth. He's your classic Son of the Morning Star character.

Lorgar- OK, I can actually sympathize a bit with this guy because of his upbringing.

Perturabo- Let's look at the facts. He's a Primarch with a Legion of Space Marines. He's stuck on garrison duty. Who here seriously wouldn't be bitter as hell? He's designed to be conquering, and he's doing the work of Imperial Army grunts. And his prime goal in turning was, as has been quoted in someone's signature here, to kick Dorn in the nuts. I approve.

Alpharius- What's not to like?

Curze- Don't dislike him, though he could have controlled his Legion better.

Angron- Dude, the guy has implants in his head that magnify his rage. The Emperor takes him from his army, his band of brothers, instead of staying and having some quality time with ol' Angry slaughtering his enemies, back to back. Could the Emperor have thought this through any less?

Magnus- His only real fault was pursuing sorcery when the Emperor said no. And who here has never had a dispute of 'I know better than you' with their folks?

Mortarion- A little weak, but his faith in the Emperor was compromised by the Emperor's wounding of his pride back on Barbarus. So sure, he had more reason to turn to Chaos than, say, Dorn, if Dorn had been in that position.

Fulgrim- Awesome, a little obsessed with perfection, then turned by *spits* Plot Device C. Whatever.

Finally, Sigmar and Hecate. You know it's true.

They're all cool, even Big Boy Blue. I like them all.

devolutionary
14-12-2008, 23:32
Not so much. I'd like to see qualification. Emo? How? Baby bat? What, cause of the wings? Victim complex? ...and you called others off their rockers.

His entire backstory is one raging Goth tragedy. He plays up the noble martyr all too well. The wings have nothing to do with baby bat, I was refering to his style. I always got the distinct feeling that he saw himself as second-fiddle to a number of other primarchs and capitalised on that. This is all interpretation and opinion after all, and I get that sort of vibe from him.

DhaosAndy
14-12-2008, 23:40
All of the loyalist ones, dorn the most, oddly, russ the least.

(but, I'm biased)

Hasan ibn Sabbah
15-12-2008, 00:02
Roboute : I hate his "I'm older so you're wrong" attitude he showed to Alpharius.

My favorites are Perturabo (yep, look at my sig) Alpharius and Curze.

Phenski
15-12-2008, 00:06
I def dont HATE any primarchs, but Lorgar gives me the ***** with his zealousness and self centredness (I wrote it so it MUST be true!!!!) and his need to worship somebody, anybody!! He is the televangelist of the 31st millenium

trigger
15-12-2008, 00:19
Angron -- ANGERON. Not much more complex than that. Hell, he was even banished by a mere Grand Master of the Grey Knights.
.

It took a company of GK to banish angron (1st war of armagedon) the GM was the focal point for the psycic energy , his whole retenue died in the proccess.

Back to topic ,
Ummm i don't really hate any , i dislike some (others dont have the fluff behind them to paint a strong enough argument)

I do however dislike some
Gulliman , good old papa smurff , purley co of the codex astartas , i want my legeion back.
Cruz, cos he gave up the will to live (this guy is one of the best then he just realises his wrongness and sits in a corner waiting to die)
magnus, because i have to , its in my training.
Logar, 'daddy wont let me worship him as a god, oh wait a minute i'll show him'

Noserenda
15-12-2008, 00:20
Probably Lorgar for being a bitch and starting the whole ruction.

Or Curze, but then hes BATMAN and may come kick my ass... :D

Khaine's Messenger
15-12-2008, 00:21
Alpharius. He's absolutely infuriating to talk about for more than a few minutes at a time due to the layers of secrecy, half-truths, and outrageous lies. Magnus was a mere conjurer of party tricks by comparison. Legion made him more bearable by taking the wind out of his sails a little, but still. :eyebrows:

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
15-12-2008, 00:21
Sigmar and Hecate. You know it's true.


Who's Hecate?


My most hated Primarchs, in the following order (spoilers ahead):

-The Lion- simply because he came off as a complete and utter butthole in Descent of Angels. I mean, randomly exiling Luthor, Zahariel and the others back to Caliban for no explained reason is just asinine.
-Lorgar- aka the Drama Queen, the guy who worshipped the Emperor so much that, when the Emperor told him to tone down the worship a little, he took it completely out of proportion, saw it as an insult, and started worshipping the Dark Gods. What a whiney little jerk.
-Leman Russ- The whole Magnus incident really makes me dislike Russ. Magnus was only trying to help the Emperor, but Russ was all too eager to kill him and his legion just because he was a psyker. For that alone, I dislike Russ (though I will be the first to admit that he was still pretty cool)
-Fulgrim- he was initially quite likeable in the novel, which made him all
the more hate-worthy as he became corrupted
-Guilleman- only because I find the Ultramarines to be deathly dull and boring.


Aaaaand...that's it. Everyone else is too cool to hate.

Peril
15-12-2008, 02:10
Except Lorgar was right.

But if I had to make my list:

Not Cool:

Horus - He rebelled because daddy didn't hold him enough as a child, Private-Pyle-Full-Metal-Jacket style.
Curze - I imagine him listening to the cure and cutting himself
Alpharius - He fell for some xenos parlor trick "vision" of the "future". REALLY?!?!?!?!?! Yeah, that was in character.
Mortarion - a Primarch and legion defined by their failures. Their tactics were a big FAIL too - "Walk up the middle". Ugh.
Fulgrim - I don't even know where to start. His merits have been well defined in this thread.
Dorn - another Primarch and legion defined by their failures. Even his successor chapters are defined by failure (Templars excluded. They got the one IF badarse Sigismund). What are IF known for? Losing stubbornly. That's great good job guys.
Corax - When the Imperim needed him the most, he pussed out and ran away. He ran because he was emo about some failed geneseed experiments. He put entire world to death and sent his men to die, but a few mutated marines caused him to pack up his toys and go home. Ok.

Cool:

Guilliman - Boy Blue was the only primarch with any stones after the Heresy. He definitely had faults, but at least he manned up and did his job.
Sanguinius - The other loyalist Primarch that didnt walk into a trap and wasnt a *****. He did his job.
Magnus - He was right.

Firaxin
15-12-2008, 02:55
No, a hundred Grey Knights and a Grand Master.

It took a company of GK to banish angron (1st war of armagedon) the GM was the focal point for the psycic energy , his whole retenue died in the proccess.
You both forget Angron's retinue of Bloodthirsters, which were distracted by the other Grey Knights so the Grand Master could make his move.
:cheese:

Inquisitor Engel
15-12-2008, 03:10
Dorn - another Primarch and legion defined by their failures. Even his successor chapters are defined by failure (Templars excluded. They got the one IF badarse Sigismund). What are IF known for? Losing stubbornly. That's great good job guys.

Except the Fists held the Imperial Palace, won enough accolades to have the Emperor himself chose Dorn and the Fists to be his personal bodyguard. Period. Not the Ultramarines, not the Blood Angels, the Imperial Fists.

The Imperial Fists lost a couple of times in an article written by Pete Haines, a man whose hatred for the Imperial Fist was well known (he did play Iron Warriors after all) and yet someone still let him write that IA. It's like having Lenin write the history of Capitalism, it just doesn't work.

The Imperial Fists are noted even in that terrible article, as being the force that hunted down a great many of the Traitor legions during their retreat to the eye. The Fists are pointed out as being quick to come to the aide of any Imperial force needing their help, and successfully doing so.


Guilliman - Boy Blue was the only primarch with any stones after the Heresy. He definitely had faults, but at least he manned up and did his job.

Guilliman nearly destroyed what was left of the Imperium by forcing his will and way upon his brothers. The Emperor did not bestow him any honour that made him any greater than his brothers, and yet he tries to force things at the very moment that direct control would be needed - to hold things together.

Guilliman lucked out that the others eventually (except Russ) capitulated and split things. His hubris and bellicose way of dealing with his brothers (in a very similar manner as Horus did, who genuinely believed he was doing it for the right reasons, as did Guilliman) is the kind of move that nearly dipped the Imperium back into chaos, just as it was recovering.

Yes, I really just compared Papa Smurf to Horus. I also play Ultramarines.


Sanguinius - The other loyalist Primarch that didnt walk into a trap and wasnt a *****. He did his job.

Umm... yes he did. Dorn, Sanguinius and the Emperor all walked into the same trap, set by Horus. Sanguinius was unlucky enough to go straight to Horus. He could have counseled patience and told the Emperor to wait for the Dark Angels and Space Wolves, or if their impending arrival was uncertain, to more closely examine their cause of Horus lowering his shields.

Had Sanguinius kept his cool, it's entirely probable that the Emperor himself (or perhaps Sanguinius, or even both) would still be walking amongst the Astartes of the Imperium.



Magnus - He was right.

No disagreement. Magnus and the Thousand Sons are the biggest tragedy in the whole thing, an undoubtedly GOOD Primarch turned to Chaos by circumstances and manipulation.

I bet he still has doubts, guilt and bitterness.

Joewrightgm
15-12-2008, 03:22
I like all the primarchs really, because they all have very human characteristics that you could totally relate to.

Magnus: trying to do the right thing, but got greedy and tried to make a point at the same time. I feel bad for him out of most of the Primarchs, because he definitly didn't deserve the back-breaker that Leman Russ gave him.

Leman Russ: Loyal, doesn't use a lot of fore-thought, and does what he's told by people with more rank than him. Good dog, go fetch the sorcerer boy! Go fetch!

Lion'el Johnson: Jury is still out on this guy. Too much mystery to get a good handle on him.

Roboute Guilliman: "A man can be an artist, with anything . . . (Guilliman's) art is death," cookie to the first person who knows where that quote is paraphrased from. Did his dirt, and did it well.

Conrad Curze: Great background on this guy. Doing what he knows to keep the Emperor's peace at any price, and the Emperor needed a martyr. "Say good night to the bad guy,"

Peturabo: Strung out, combat fatigued, treated with the same amount of respect to be had for the Imperial Army and no outlet other than the enemy to vent it on. Don't blame him.

Rogal Dorn: Praetorian of the Emperor doing the best he can with what he has.

Jagatai Khan: Genghis Khan on a chopped and lowered bike with sub machine guns on it. I'm not seeing a problem here.

Sanguinius: No story of more woe than that of Sanguinius and His Blood Angels. Pretty bad ass from what I've read of him so far.

Horus Luprecal: The favored son. The brightest star often has the furthest to fall. "Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven"

Lorgar: Rejected by the object of his waking devotion, the God he slew millions in the name of, and being told that the devotion of a brother is more appropriate than your own. Tell me you wouldn't have a little crisis of faith.

Fulgrim: He who was most perfect had the most ugliness. The ultimate tale of inner beauty, never more truly told than with the death of millions at his and his marine's hands.

Angron: He's a dog chasing cars, except he knows what to do with one when he catches it. The Emperor yanked him away from a warrior's death, and into slavery by another name.

Corax: Did his best to get back in the game, and couldn't make the cut. "Nevermore," Nevermore would he shame the Emperor with his abominations, and that's why he dissapeared.

Alpharius: Stacking the deck at every opportunity and dealing from the bottom while counting cards. Pragmatic to an unhealthy degree.

Vulkan: Stolid character so far in the books and fiction. No opinion.

Ferrus Manus: The metal is strong and unyielding; the flesh is weak and flimsy. Loved this character.

Mortarion: His motives for turning, in my opinion, have not satifactorily been revealed to me. His character however, was very intimidating in the books and there's alot of depth to explore.

Lost Primarchs: Don't have an opinion, but we don't know them yet.

Peril
15-12-2008, 03:26
Dorn was beat up by the goth kid, and had to be rescued by the Ultras in the Iron Cage fiasco. He seemed to have been pretty cool until the Heresy. After that he lost his fastball after having to carry the Emporer back to the Golden Throne. He should have told the High Lords to eff off and let the Emporer heal.



Guilliman nearly destroyed what was left of the Imperium by forcing his will and way upon his brothers. The Emperor did not bestow him any honour that made him any greater than his brothers, and yet he tries to force things at the very moment that direct control would be needed - to hold things together.


He did all that because the remaining Primarchs weren't helping. He was the only one who was trying to keep the Imperium together. The others were off crying into their pillows, flying off into the warp/webway/whatever, or getting drunk.



Had Sanguinius kept his cool, it's entirely probable that the Emperor himself (or perhaps Sanguinius, or even both) would still be walking amongst the Astartes of the Imperium.


Sanguinius knew this was his fate however. It wasn't a trap if he knew what was going to happen.

Nicha11
15-12-2008, 03:32
Sanguinius knew this was his fate however. It wasn't a trap if he knew what was going to happen.

I reckon that is a myth created by the Blood Angles

"No no no guys, our primarch didn't get one hit koed at all ;)"

"He like totally chose to die, ;)"

Hicks
15-12-2008, 03:45
Guiliman and El'Johnson. Mister bossy and the primarch of the DA, eeew.

Luke.13
15-12-2008, 03:52
Roboute Guilliman: "A man can be an artist, with anything . . . (Guilliman's) art is death," cookie to the first person who knows where that quote is paraphrased from.

Rayburn "man on Fire"- wheres my cookie?


anyways

i extremely dislike Lorgar, kind of did a "im taking my ball and leaving" thing when the emperor told him to stop worshiping him, so he ran with his legion to chaos... probably cried on the way to chaos too

Inquisitor Engel
15-12-2008, 03:55
Dorn was beat up by the goth kid, and had to be rescued by the Ultras in the Iron Cage fiasco.

Dorn went in trying to counsel his brother, unprepared for combat. Curze wasn't a goth kid, Curze was a man who raised himself, creating his own morals and order from the ground up and attending to his own physique and getting to such a point that he pacified an ENTIRE PLANET SINGLE HANDEDLY.

Dorn got blind-sided, but even on a good day, Curze could probably have taken most of the other primarchs in a fair fight.

The Iron Cage was also used by Dorn to purge his Legion of warriors too set in their ways or too gung-ho to accept Guilliman's new order, it wasn't a suicide mission, it was a cleansing ritual.



He did all that because the remaining Primarchs weren't helping. He was the only one who was trying to keep the Imperium together. The others were off crying into their pillows, flying off into the warp/webway/whatever, or getting drunk.

Dorn was off chasing the traitor legions, Jonson was fighting his own Legion, Ferrus was dead, Vulkan's legion was decimated to the point where he could no longer fight, same with Corax and probably Khan (whose legion fought outside the palace for a good amount of time). Russ was probably being pretty awkward.

By the end of the Heresy, Guilliman and Russ were the only Primarchs in command of Legions anywhere close to full-strength and The Ultramarines were of far greater numbers.

The simple fact is that Guilliman strong-armed his visions and policies onto those who were formerly his equals. He is, in my opinion, the worst of the loyalist Primarchs.



Sanguinius knew this was his fate however. It wasn't a trap if he knew what was going to happen.

All the more reason to not go. :p Then again, it's unlikely he knew the Emperor would suffer at Horus' hands as well... Either way, he could have gone on his own. He made poor choices, IMHO, ones that forever doomed his legion.

Reflex
15-12-2008, 04:00
Im annoyed at the remaining 4(?) living loyalist primarchs. Russ, corax, Khan and Vulkan i believe (correct me if im wrong).

As far as i know they are alive but no one knows where they are. Im annoyed/ hate them mainly for being the loose ends that they are. it would be nice to have some stories about them even so that the imperium dosnt know what they are up to, would just be nice to know that vulkan has been off in place x making something uber or russ has been running around killing stuff crazy or what ever. not necessarily to tie up loose ends, just to turn those very long ends into shorter ones.


I dont think i really hate any of the primarchs, although i do hate that some dont have any or much fluff about them, but being patient as i am, i am willing to wait for a killer story on the lesser knowns.

Peril
15-12-2008, 04:13
Seriously you are going to defend Dorn assaulting the Iron Cage as anything other than a rash fool's errand? Stubborn to the end it is ;) I will cede the point on Curze - he was pretty tough for a hot topic kid.



Dorn was off chasing the traitor legions, Jonson was fighting his own Legion, Ferrus was dead, Vulkan's legion was decimated to the point where he could no longer fight, same with Corax and probably Khan (whose legion fought outside the palace for a good amount of time). Russ was probably being pretty awkward.

The simple fact is that Guilliman strong-armed his visions and policies onto those who were formerly his equals. He is, in my opinion, the worst of the loyalist Primarchs.


You proved my point. Corax, Khan, and Russ were not helping at all in the aftermath of the Heresy (a Primarch even with a depleted Legion is still a powerful force if even only from a strategic standpoint). Lion and Dorn were legitimately busy, but weren't helping hold things together the way Roboute was.

Also, Guilliman had a right to implement his codex - his was the most successful legion after all.

Nicha11
15-12-2008, 04:38
The Iron Cage was also used by Dorn to purge his Legion of warriors too set in their ways or too gung-ho to accept Guilliman's new order, it wasn't a suicide mission, it was a cleansing ritual.


Sounds like what Horus did at Istvaan :evilgrin::evilgrin:

Also in "flight of the Eisenstein" Dorn looked like a complete loser,
he was about to decapitate Garro solely for bringing news of the Heresy!

The best thing about Dorn was that he got his ass kicked by Perturabo :evilgrin:

Shangrila
15-12-2008, 04:40
Horus since his heresy led to my chapter to the brink of extinction.

Phoebus
15-12-2008, 04:59
My most hated Primarchs, in the following order (spoilers ahead):

-The Lion- simply because he came off as a complete and utter butthole in Descent of Angels. I mean, randomly exiling Luthor, Zahariel and the others back to Caliban for no explained reason is just asinine.
Am I the only person here that seriously entertained the idea that the Lion somehow knew what Luther had been up to and what Zahariel's role had been?

I mean, Luther orders the embarkation area where the Saroshi shuttle is to be cleared once he realizes it's a bomb. He doesn't tell anyone about what he found. It's not until after Lion kills the Saroshi ambassador that Zahariel even calls in the emergency. That puts both of those guys in the area of the assassination attempt, with an uncomfortable time between Luther clearly finding something wrong and the bomb's attempt to go off. Neither Luther nor Zahariel offer any convincing excuse as to why that is.

Lion clearly had reason to suspect Luther. Zahariel was suspect by virtue of being there but not clearing up the situation. At any rate, he was clearly dishonest with his Primarch.

Lexington
15-12-2008, 05:13
Sort of depends on which "version" of the Primarchs you're referring to.

The ones described in the brief histories of the 2nd Edition Codicies?

The ones given much more detailed personal histories in the Index Astartes articles?

The ones given narrative form in the Horus Heresy novels?

I see these as three distinct, and often contradictory sources regarding the Primarchs, whose details differ in type and quality. I'm quite happy with Lorgar as depicted in the brief histories of the 2nd Edition days, but I can't imagine personally respecting the blubbering mass of fail we find in the later incarnations. Likewise, how could one not respect and fear the Horus we're given in the Index Astartes? He's a genius and a tragic villian. As a narrated in the Horus Heresy novels, though, he's an idiot punk whose mind is clouded by a Chaplain's song and dance routine.

Basically, I can't hate any of the interesting Primarchs we're given in their original incarnations*, but also hate every single one of the shallow automatons in the Horus Heresy novels.

* Well, okay, maybe Ferrus Manus for his ridiculous name.

totgeboren
15-12-2008, 05:53
I see lots of hate for Lorgar, and I would agree if it wasn't for the fact that he was right.

I mean, the only thing holding the Imperium together is the masses devotion to the Emperor.

And that was exactly the point Lorgar was trying to make.

Thats something I like about 40k. In the real world, i really dislike religion for a number of reasons, but in 40k, religion is maybe the most important thing for the exact same reasons.

Also, I agree with Lexington. The 2:ed fluff portrayed them all as credible characters, though the information was brief. The IA articles continued that setting and fleshed it out quite abit.

In the HH books, they are all more or less reduced to squabbling children mentally.

Captain Stern
15-12-2008, 05:54
Sort of depends on which "version" of the Primarchs you're referring to.

The ones described in the brief histories of the 2nd Edition Codicies?

The ones given much more detailed personal histories in the Index Astartes articles?

The ones given narrative form in the Horus Heresy novels?

I see these as three distinct, and often contradictory sources regarding the Primarchs, whose details differ in type and quality. I'm quite happy with Lorgar as depicted in the brief histories of the 2nd Edition days, but I can't imagine personally respecting the blubbering mass of fail we find in the later incarnations. Likewise, how could one not respect and fear the Horus we're given in the Index Astartes? He's a genius and a tragic villian. As a narrated in the Horus Heresy novels, though, he's an idiot punk whose mind is clouded by a Chaplain's song and dance routine.

Basically, I can't hate any of the interesting Primarchs we're given in their original incarnations*, but also hate every single one of the shallow automatons in the Horus Heresy novels.

Yeah, spot on.

I disagree with you however about the Index Astartes articles. I think they were, on balance, much worse than even the novels.

Koryphaus
15-12-2008, 05:55
Wow, there sure are a lot of people here who have no idea what they're talking about..

Saying Corax pussed out, lol. Saying that the IF are only known for losing stubbornly, lol. I lol at you..

I don't hate any of them. They're all heaps sick, in their own cool ways!

olmsted
15-12-2008, 05:55
Im annoyed at the remaining 4(?) living loyalist primarchs. Russ, corax, Khan and Vulkan i believe (correct me if im wrong).

As far as i know they are alive but no one knows where they are. Im annoyed/ hate them mainly for being the loose ends that they are. it would be nice to have some stories about them even so that the imperium dosnt know what they are up to, would just be nice to know that vulkan has been off in place x making something uber or russ has been running around killing stuff crazy or what ever. not necessarily to tie up loose ends, just to turn those very long ends into shorter ones.


I dont think i really hate any of the primarchs, although i do hate that some dont have any or much fluff about them, but being patient as i am, i am willing to wait for a killer story on the lesser knowns.

actually theres some fluff on russ running around.

heres what i know; throughtout the ages the space wolves have had great hunts in search of russ and great victories.

1. they found his armour near a khornate temple
2. they reclaimed his spear

also on another note it seems that russ is searching for a life giving fruit for the emperor and will return from what ever state of death he is in to help the wolves during the wolf time



also you can clearly tell who plays what army by their posts.

Radium
15-12-2008, 06:54
They're all mon-keigh!

Anyhow, I really dislike billy-bob ultraman. Bland and codex as he is. And ever since the new codex, I dislike Vulkan. They turned my beloved salamanders into a severly sunburned flavor of the month army, and made their primarch look like a glorified techpriest.

Phoebus
15-12-2008, 07:26
Im annoyed at the remaining 4(?) living loyalist primarchs. Russ, corax, Khan and Vulkan i believe (correct me if im wrong).
I don't know about Corax and Vulkan, but there are hints given for Russ and the Khan that indicate matters might be beyond their control.

I mean, Russ' armor and one of his weapons have been found. Given the nature of the Space Wolves (Wulfen, Canis Helix, etc.), if Russ isn't using his armor... he might not be exactly Primarch-like anymore, and thus may not be thinking all that coherently.

Similarly, the Khan was supposedly near in or in Commoragh. That can't be good. :D


I see these as three distinct, and often contradictory sources regarding the Primarchs, ...
Only in the sense that we never got the full story, though. The more detail you get about someone, the more their flaws become apparent. It's easy to admire someone from a distance, especially the distance of time. George Washington had wooden teeth and stuffed his cheeks with cotton for portraits; Thomas Jefferson had extramarital affairs with his slaves; Napoleon Bonaparte was unable to shake off the influence of a woman who cheated on him on almost every occasion afforded to her; George Patton was a classic megalomaniac.


... whose details differ in type and quality.
I'll by the quality bit in that tastes differ, but not for the purposes of ranking novels vs. Index Astartes. If you do that, it's an unfair comparison because the latter have to bear a much lighter burden than the former.


Likewise, how could one not respect and fear the Horus we're given in the Index Astartes? He's a genius and a tragic villian. As a narrated in the Horus Heresy novels, though, he's an idiot punk whose mind is clouded by a Chaplain's song and dance routine.
See, if you said "I respect and fear Horus from the Index Astartes articles much more than the one from the novels," I would take that as a much more acceptable statement. When you extend it to everyone else, though, it becomes a matter of taste and opinion, and thus is hardly universal.


... Horus apparently fell ill on a small feral world called Davin. During his convalescence, he took part in the induction ceremony of a warrior lodge on the planet. This was the Primarch's well-tried practice to develop ties with local populations - feral natives were more easily recruited into the Imperial fold when the 'Warriors from the Stars' had become brothers. However, this time was different. In the days that followed, Horus's officers detected a change in his character. It is now presumed that the warrior lodge was in fact a Chaos coven, which somehow managed to ensorcel the Warmaster.
The Primarch proceeded to introduce similar 'warrior lodges' into his own Legion, and then others under his command. ... Whether the events on Davin were planned by the gods of Chaos or just the work of an isolated group is unsure. Certainly a Primarch becoming ill was almost unheard of, and it would surely have required a virulent and unique ailment to affect him, perhaps indicating a greater conspiracy.
So what exactly differs between the Index Astartes Horus and the novel Horus? Absolutely nothing, other than we now know the reason behind his "ailment" and that the events that occurred on Davin were, in fact, planned.

Again, it's just a matter of opinion. You think Horus is a "punk" because he was swayed by someone. I think the fact that Horus was corrupted via betrayal, more or less, makes him a much more tragic figure. The IA article hardly gave any better information: a bunch of back-woods cultists who couldn't even get off their planet somehow make for a better corruptor than a snake-tongued Chaplain from a Legion in league with Chaos? :rolleyes:


I see lots of hate for Lorgar, and I would agree if it wasn't for the fact that he was right.

I mean, the only thing holding the Imperium together is the masses devotion to the Emperor.
No offense, but that's only half the picture.

Devotion to the Emperor is only holding the Imperium together because the Emperor was incapacitated. The Emperor was doing just fine without worship and hocus-pocus before Lorgar & Co. decided to do a rebellion to satisfy their own needs. ;)

Cheers,
P.

Corax
15-12-2008, 08:36
My vote is for Angron for committing the cardinal sin of being one dimentional. He's nothing but a life-size cardboard cut out of a Primarch! I don't even really hate him as such; I just think he's pretty boring.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-12-2008, 09:03
Cruz, cos he gave up the will to live (this guy is one of the best then he just realises his wrongness and sits in a corner waiting to die)

Wrong. Read his last words again.


His entire backstory is one raging Goth tragedy. He plays up the noble martyr all too well. The wings have nothing to do with baby bat, I was refering to his style. I always got the distinct feeling that he saw himself as second-fiddle to a number of other primarchs and capitalised on that. This is all interpretation and opinion after all, and I get that sort of vibe from him.

Mmm. Never got that impression. But OK.


Who's Hecate?

There is a link in my sig that you should check out... by order of Lastie.


Roboute Guilliman: "A man can be an artist, with anything . . . (Guilliman's) art is death," cookie to the first person who knows where that quote is paraphrased from. Did his dirt, and did it well.

Man on Fire. Great movie.


All the more reason to not go. :p Then again, it's unlikely he knew the Emperor would suffer at Horus' hands as well... Either way, he could have gone on his own. He made poor choices, IMHO, ones that forever doomed his legion.

Well, he could have tried to keep the Emperor back, but it would have been an unwise counseling. At the time Horus lowered his shields, he was on the brink of victory on Terra- the arrival of the Wolves and Dark Angels was still too far off for them to save the Emperor. They would have showed up and mopped up with the Traitors, but wouldn't have stopped Horus from sacking Terra and making mincemeat of the Loyalists there. When Horus lowered his shields, it was go time- they teleported aboard and Sanguinius made the ultimate sacrifice to create a chink in Horus' armor that the Emperor would later exploit.

I think most of that is correct, from reading summaries of the Heresy in dozens of Codices. Overall, Sanguinius did what he could with the cards he had. As did all the Loyalists and the Emperor.

Firaxin
15-12-2008, 09:32
Sanguinius made the ultimate sacrifice to create a chink in Horus' armor that the Emperor would later exploit.
Wait, I thought the Emperor obliterated Horus in body and soul with a single massive super-nova-esque warp blast. There was no chink in Horus's armor to exploit. If I remember correctly, Sanguinius basically did nothing other than get killed.

However I don't like him any less for that, because

a) He did all sorts of kick-ass stuff elsewhere
b) He tried his best
c) Mary-tauism, er, I mean mary-suism is evil.

Lord-Caerolion
15-12-2008, 09:48
I'm going to have to go with Dorn. Simply because he fought Night Haunter just because Curze had warp-induced visions about the Emperor killing him. "How dare you have bad hallucinations about Father!" Then cue one massive beat-down on Dorn. Yes, my favourite Primarch is Konrad Curze.

Although, I suppose the main thing I don't like about Dorn is due to the fact we know nothing about who he is. His history in the Index Astartes article is pretty much a single sentence: "He showed up to the Emperor in a massive star ship, near Inwit." Nothing about how he was raised, nothing about what he did, he just turns up in a ship, saying. Even after that, his life is pretty much summed up with "No, you insulted the Emperor! You must die!... Oh noes! I failed the Emperor! Masochism time for me!" Just a bit one dimensional for my tastes. He's the ultimate sycophant, doing everything he can to please daddy, and cries in the corner when he can't.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-12-2008, 09:59
Wait, I thought the Emperor obliterated Horus in body and soul with a single massive super-nova-esque warp blast. There was no chink in Horus's armor to exploit. If I remember correctly, Sanguinius basically did nothing other than get killed.

Can't cite any sources, but some BA fluff says that Sanguinius did make a chink in Horus' armor that the Emperor would later exploit with his soul-destroying power.


However I don't like him any less for that, because

a) He did all sorts of kick-ass stuff elsewhere
b) He tried his best
c) Mary-tauism, er, I mean mary-suism is evil.

I agree, especially on c).

taffeh
15-12-2008, 10:09
Papa Smurf just for being Papa Smurf!

"Anger-On" just for being a hot headed idiot

I disagree with most saying Lion + DA -> the reason being thats what make DA so much fun with the fluff - "Are they, arent they?" sort of situation.

The guys I really hate are Erebus + Eidolon + Fabius.... The primarchs were used - it was these guys who were behind it all!

(Typhon, n the SoH/LW legions commanders came across cool though - even when they 'came-out')

burtnernie
15-12-2008, 10:28
Hate (the word is strong in this one)

Hard to hate them tbh, but after reading any of the above I would have to say that if anyone it is emo it's Curze, "aww I have seen my death, yawn yawn, the galaxy will burn, sob sob... " well stop being a bell end and tell daddy so he can slap his favourite son round the ear and tell him not to bother.

Alpharius was cool, until he believe the aliens... "suffer not the unclean to live..." or I could just listen to them and turn to Horus. dubious.

Purturabo was a weiner but in fairness, he could make a sandcastle and still nobody would break it down.

Lion El "small" Johnson. This guy sucks, his chapter is cool, the whole secrecy and fluff behind it is cool, hell I am a SW fan and for me to say that, well defies belief. But even still, he reminds me a spoilt little punk... he should put jealousy behind him and get on with the job..


Used to think sucked but now changed opinion.

Ferrus Mannus, thought he was a bit "meh" but I really liked his character in the HH book and liekd the honour bound views...

Fulgrim... hedonistic... shows just exactly how they are just enhanced version of humans, and no matter how much gene coding that they can fall foul just like the rest of us.

Magnus... am a SW through and through but changing into a ghost wolf and trying to save Horus from the grips of Chaos was cool...

Lorgar... forget battle of the abyss cos I was not impressed, read the word bearer novels and know that the Legion is cool.

People I like.

Gullable.... well I like the chap, any guy that can bend entire legions to his will to limit the possibility of it happening again has to be worth his salt.

Khan... he rides bikes, has a handlebar moustache, does NOT frequent the blue oyster bar, and defended terra against innumerable odds... again worth his salt.

Dorn... stout resolute and he made the palace pretty ******* tough place to take, ok it was breached but with those numbers it was likely to happen...

Sanguinius, had the balls to take on the demon infused champion Horus... big cahunas if you ask me.

Russ... what is not to like. loyal and resolute, more victories on the field of battle than nearly all of the other legions, adhered to the word of his master. Emperor: "No magic", Russ: "Magnus?", Emperor: "Seek and Destroy"... Russ... "Sweet, never did like that one... "

Then stuck to his lords ideals when the codex came in. Stout, loyal and protective of the human race... and not being funny, vikings with big axes and beards in space... err yeah, controlled beserkers ftw... up close and personal, traditionalists to the letter... ok so i'm biased....

Vulkan.... Seems pretty cool... red glowing eyes, flammy death... get up there...

The rest.... meh

Lexington
15-12-2008, 13:54
I'll by the quality bit in that tastes differ, but not for the purposes of ranking novels vs. Index Astartes. If you do that, it's an unfair comparison because the latter have to bear a much lighter burden than the former.
That's more or less my point. The Primarchs are much easier to write from a distance. Writing super-beings like that up close requires some serious skill and insight. Frankly, the Black Library just doesn't attract writers of that calibre, for all sorts of reasons, and even when they do, they strangle any creative impulse out of the author with their ridiculous rules for publication. It's why the Horus Heresy novels were bound to be as disappointing as they are.

burtnernie
15-12-2008, 14:16
Luckily for me I completely disagree with the above post.

The HH books are very well written, people need to sometimes remember that fiction stories often come from the heart of the author and not this great expanse where it has been touched on by a few seperate writers in short which has allowed literally millions of people to create their own perspective on their interpretation of the story/saga.

So imho the writers at the BL create some fantastic novels considering that the fundamental core of the books already exist within a wide audience. Expectation with regards to these books is so high...

Not saying however that they are all GREAT books worthy of a place in the annuals, some of the HH books are significatly better than others. Fulgrim, Galaxy in Flames and Flight of the Eisenstein to name my faves.

But Battle for the Abyss and Descent of Angels did not have the same effect.

But each is entitled to their own opinion, like the poster above and like myself with this view.

AdmiralDick
15-12-2008, 15:47
i don't particularly dislike any of the Primarchs. some are much less interesting than others. some of the 'lesser' Loyalist ones have so little background at the moment that they are little more than names and armour. but i wouldn't say i hate any of them.

however, i would say i hate how they are portrayed in the BL HH novels. i don't care for the books at all, and they often will appear distinctly less than human, rather than super-soldier god-kings.

i wouldn't be surprised at all, if in 10 years time, GW scrap everything in those books in favour of some better thought out background (where not all of the Traitor Legions rebelled by mistake).

not sure what's with all the Fulgrim hate. he's supposed to be a bad guy. you aren't supposed to want to be like him or anything. if anything he's supposed to be sickly sweet, utterly repellent and yet strangely attractive. like Xerxes in 300 or some kind of gruesome pornography.


Gulliman, cause I can't stand ultramarines, and can't stand him (indoctrination is something I really cannot stand, and he was all for it).

lol. is that your own opinion that you have objectively worked out for yourself, or just what people you look up to say? ;)


It's a joke name for Abaddon... say it aloud and it sounds about right. Kinda like Yabba dabba doo from the Flintstones.


I'll get my coat...

lets call him Abbadabbadoodon and leave it at that.


Angron -- ANGERON. Not much more complex than that. Hell, he was even banished by a mere Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

how much background have you read on Angron? i'm guessing not much, because precious little has been written about him, which is probably doesn't seem very deep.

if and when the World Eaters get their turn in the sun i suspect that he will be fleshed out more. we'll find out more about his gladiatorial tendencies and why he permitted his legion to undergo brain surgery (or decreed that it should). it would be interesting to find out just how far his friendship with Horus went. did Angron look up to him as a big brother? did he think of Horus as being weak for sometimes not advancing head long into the enemy?

we know precious little of what he and his legion were like before the Heresy, and how the Emperor felt about his son. was he disgusted with his behaviour or did he endorse it?

there is a massive amount that needs to be unearthed about Angron before you can truly call him one-dimensional.


Perturabo -- He dilutes the awesomeness of Ferrus Manus and Rogal Dorn.

to be fair, Ferrus Manus (who unsurprisingly has iron hands!) is hardly the cleverest of inventions and he doesn't seem to bear much of a similarity to his Legion. at least Perturabo makes sense that way.

Ubermensch Commander
15-12-2008, 16:14
Hate is of course a strong word for discussing ficitional characters....how about REALLY STRONG ANTIPATHY towards their characters?

Amusingly, in some cases, I hate a Primarch but have little problem with their
Legions.

Angron for one. Ok so he failed a rebel uprising and had hate issues with Dad when Dad saved his life. Fine. But when Angron accepted leadership of the World Eaters, turned them into misanthropic madmen, and then fought and committed atrocities IN THE EMPEROR'S NAME with THE EMPEROR'S ARMIES...he validated, sanctioned, and vindicated the Emperor's decision. So this whole "ooooo my poor dead friends from a century back...waaah wahh wahhh BLOOD FRENZY!" just really does not do it for me. It is kinda like emo but when he cuts OTHER people's wrists.


Rogal Dorn for being whiny wuss on whom all other primarchs picked whenever they wanted (his record include being beaten in personal combat by Night Haunter, beaten on battlefield by perturanbo, being intimidated into accepting Codex by guilmann, doing nothing special when Horus was killing Emperor and self-pitying himself along the way). The one noteworthy thing he accomplished was holding the Terra until Dark Angels and Space Wolves came to relieve him. There are primarchs with worse fluff out there (Fulgrim's treatment in late BL fanart was am epic fail, as already noted), but no worse excuse for primarch then Rogal Dorn.

Good man! Good man! Yeah this pretty much sums up my opinion of Dorn. Despite the HH books trying to make him seem all "great tally of victories" and "warmaster high muckity muck for the loyalists" he pretty much failed in allot o cases. I take particularly umbrage with his treatement of the Night Haunter. He hears his brother is suffering, gets pissed that anyone would say something nasty about the Emperor, and goes to give him a browbeating? Yeah....with the Primarchs as a fraternity of brothers, I would EXPECT Night Haunter to kick his ass.


May I advise that anyone who has an issue with indoctrination and plays Guard and/or Marines please sell their armies and go Ork? Because if you think that Guilliman was the only one with indoctrination, you're completely off your bloody rocker.

I personally dislike Sanguinus with a vengeance. Emo kid with a touch of baby bat and a whole lot of victim complex.

One) Good point on Guilliman, thank you.
Two) Agree with point on Sanguinius. Ok...the mutant freak was pretty. So what? His claim to fame is MARTYRDOM? Which left us with a series of feral madmen that create offspring such as the Flesh Tearers to terrorize the very Imperium they should be protecting? Lovely. Just....not impressed with Sanguinius.


But most of all....I dislike Lorgar. The queen bitch of the Primarchs. This religious numbnut cannot figure out that he is working for an Atheistic empire and even when the Emperor says "I AM NOT A GOD!" several times over, he still does not get the hint. Then, when he fails at his purpose of being a Primarch, the Emperor rebukes him, little mister zealot collapses in on himself and sulks. He NEEDED something to pray to....pathetic. So he tears apart the Imperium he helped build...because worshiping horrendous other dimensional beings simply fit with his psychological crutch. Wow.....way to go Lorgar.

AdmiralDick
15-12-2008, 16:56
there's some really weird reactions on this thread. if people feel that strongly about disliking the Primarchs why play the game at all?


Agree with point on Sanguinius. Ok...the mutant freak was pretty. So what? His claim to fame is MARTYRDOM? Which left us with a series of feral madmen that create offspring such as the Flesh Tearers to terrorize the very Imperium they should be protecting? Lovely. Just....not impressed with Sanguinius.

assuming that the manner of his death was indeed his only notable feat, Sanguinius would not be the only person in the history books who's only recorded for being a martyr. many people die as martyrs and aren't even recorded for it.

but in actuality that is a false image of Sanguinius. firstly, as a soldier in an army fighting that army's cause, he did not die a martyrs death. just an unpleasant one. and secondly, Sanguinius was every bit the angelic hero that he appeared to be; that we still don't know a great deal about him is not his fault. also his Legion, whilst suffering from Geneseed defects like ever legion, is not simply a scrofulous horde. only a small percentage of them succumb to the Red Thirst and when they do they are always deployed in tightly controlled millitary formations, not just let out like Wulfen or possessed are.


But most of all....I dislike Lorgar. The queen bitch of the Primarchs. This religious numbnut cannot figure out that he is working for an Atheistic empire and even when the Emperor says "I AM NOT A GOD!" several times over, he still does not get the hint.

personally i have more distaste for the changing of the God Emperor into a petty mortal, simply to contend with the current fashion for supposed atheism. it completely flies in the face of the vast majority of Imperial background and makes an utter mockery of the things like the Sisters, Grey Knights and Word Bearers, which all existed before the idea that the Emperor did not think of himself as being a god was forced into the HH books.

x-esiv-4c
15-12-2008, 16:56
Lets not forget that Guilleman was an Imperial guard commander, not a primarch! :)

Phoebus
15-12-2008, 16:59
It's why the Horus Heresy novels were bound to be as disappointing as they are.
To each their own, I suppose. :)

Nicha11
15-12-2008, 17:12
(It should be noted that the Fists fought the IW to a total standstill. The Iron Warriors in no way "won" the Iron Cage, but objectively, no one did... except that bully Guilliman.)



You really like the IF don't you :D If the Iron Warriors didn't win why did
Dorn leave as a broken man? And why did the smurfs have to come to the rescue?

Inquisitor Engel
15-12-2008, 17:16
Seriously you are going to defend Dorn assaulting the Iron Cage as anything other than a rash fool's errand? Stubborn to the end it is ;)

The Iron Cage was set up as a trap and a test, just prior to (what seems like) the Iron Warriors final retreat to the Eye. Dorn knew that it was only a matter of time before Guilliman lost his temper about the other Primarchs refusing to go over to his way and probably faced some serious resistance from his Captains about splitting up the Legion.

It might be a tad similar to Isstvan III, but it's what happened. Sigismund clearly survived, Dorn did and then the Iron Warriors were sent packing when the Ultramarines arrived. (It should be noted that the Fists fought the IW to a total standstill. The Iron Warriors in no way "won" the Iron Cage, but objectively, no one did... except that bully Guilliman.)



You proved my point. Corax, Khan, and Russ were not helping at all in the aftermath of the Heresy (a Primarch even with a depleted Legion is still a powerful force if even only from a strategic standpoint). Lion and Dorn were legitimately busy, but weren't helping hold things together the way Roboute was.

It's entirely possibly Khan went missing before he even gave an opinion on it, but that's unlikely. Russ was, knowing him, hunting down traitors, but Vulkan probably was helping, but due to the obvious lack of troops at his disposal, he can't be said for doing much.

Corax and Vulkan both capitulated to Roboute's demands fairly quickly because their Legions were at a low-strength, and then probably did whatever Papa Smurf told them to do.

I'm not saying they were actively involved as the Ultramarines, Fists or [possibly] Wolves at securing the Imperium, but they certainly weren't hindering the process.


Also, Guilliman had a right to implement his codex - his was the most successful legion after all.

Largest =/= most successful. By all accounts, the Luna Wolves, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and Emperor's Children seem to be the "most successful." That of course may change in upcoming books.


Sounds like what Horus did at Istvaan :evilgrin::evilgrin:

Horus had a fairly good reason for it, he believed what he was doing was best for mankind, Dorn saw his actions are best for his Legion and the Imperium as a whole. Pretty similar.

QUOTE=Nicha11;3136430]Also in "flight of the Eisenstein" Dorn looked like a complete loser,
he was about to decapitate Garro solely for bringing news of the Heresy!
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but wouldn't you be a bit annoyed if someone came, without any real proof, and told you at least three of your brothers, one of whom appears to be your best friend, are turning against your father?

I was a bit shocked, but the point is, he DIDN'T cut Garro's head of then and there, but took some time to accept it. Not exactly awesome, but still, understandable.




Although, I suppose the main thing I don't like about Dorn is due to the fact we know nothing about who he is. His history in the Index Astartes article is pretty much a single sentence: "He showed up to the Emperor in a massive star ship, near Inwit." Nothing about how he was raised, nothing about what he did, he just turns up in a ship, saying. Even after that, his life is pretty much summed up with "No, you insulted the Emperor! You must die!... Oh noes! I failed the Emperor! Masochism time for me!" Just a bit one dimensional for my tastes. He's the ultimate sycophant, doing everything he can to please daddy, and cries in the corner when he can't.

I can't disagree with that, it is rather... odd. I would like to see more on his background, especially since nothing defining or interesting comes from his lack of youth background, unlike Alpharius.

Inquisitor Engel
15-12-2008, 17:20
You really like the IF don't you :D If the Iron Warriors didn't win why did
Dorn leave as a broken man? And why did the smurfs have to come to the rescue?

Reading too much into the Imperial Fists IA is, like I said, a huge mistake.

Just because the Iron Warriors didn't win, doesn't mean the Imperial Fists DID, they clearly fought valiantly, if foolishly but with purpose, etc but at the end of the day, it took someone else to save his ass, something Dorn probably disliked greatly, ESPECIALLY since it was the very man who was throwing around even greater authority than Horus did (Rouboute was effectively running the entire Imperium for a while, Horus just led the military) without any actual mandate to do so.

Captain Stern
15-12-2008, 17:33
Engel, I'm sure even you realise deep down how untenable your position is in defending Dorn as he's portrayed in the IA articles and onward. Pete Haines (IA Iron Warriors), Phil Kelly (IA Night Lords) and others purposely made him look ridiculous to make other primarchs look good. One can be thankful that the far superior Dan Abnett consistently depicts him in a serious way, and fittingly describes him as being the 2nd best primarch. Unfortunately though even he feels compelled to adhere to the rubbish that are the IA articles as we can see from The Lightning Tower, an otherwise brilliant piece of writing that is sadly based entirely on the ridiculous Night Haunter incident. :(

Phoebus
15-12-2008, 17:34
Angron for one. Ok so he failed a rebel uprising and had hate issues with Dad when Dad saved his life. Fine. But when Angron accepted leadership of the World Eaters, turned them into misanthropic madmen, and then fought and committed atrocities IN THE EMPEROR'S NAME with THE EMPEROR'S ARMIES...he validated, sanctioned, and vindicated the Emperor's decision. So this whole "ooooo my poor dead friends from a century back...waaah wahh wahhh BLOOD FRENZY!" just really does not do it for me. It is kinda like emo but when he cuts OTHER people's wrists.
Good points. Know what else makes me mad about Angron?

He, with the single exception of Perturabo, is, by far, the most incompetent of all the Primarchs. He is one of only a few of that brotherhood that failed to conquer the planet he landed on; with the exception of Perturabo, who didn't even try, Angron missed the margin the most.

All he knows is how to hit things. He certainly didn't know how to take advantage of his victories before his father found him. Even Night Haunter, who had even less training and interaction with people figured out how to consolidate his rule and put forth his own brand of law and order. :rolleyes:


Two) Agree with point on Sanguinius. Ok...the mutant freak was pretty. So what? His claim to fame is MARTYRDOM? Which left us with a series of feral madmen that create offspring such as the Flesh Tearers to terrorize the very Imperium they should be protecting? Lovely. Just....not impressed with Sanguinius.
I personally kind of like that dischotomy. Even before Sanguinius died, the Index Astartes tells us that Horus was sending word of the World Eaters' exploits to the Blood Angels, and vice-versa. What that means is that, despite Sanguinius' angelic look and peaceful manner outside of the battlefield, the Primarch and his Astartes were ferocious and war-thirsty on a level equal to the hardest guys that fought for the Emperor.



... personally i have more distaste for the changing of the God Emperor into a petty mortal, simply to contend with the current fashion for supposed atheism. it completely flies in the face of the vast majority of Imperial background and makes an utter mockery of the things like the Sisters, Grey Knights and Word Bearers, which all existed before the idea that the Emperor did not think of himself as being a god was forced into the HH books.
While it is an about face for the Emperor, I don't think the intent was to curry favor with any religious (or anti-religious) fashion. Furthermore, I don't think this change makes a mockery of the Imperium. I think it's a typical of the Imperium remembering the Emperor as they wanted him to be.

It's no different than modern Americans remembering the 1800s as they do (more of the glorious enlargement, less of the natives being wiped out by disease and betrayed on and on), or of modern Greeks remembering Alexander the Great as they do (more of the spreading culture and winning great battles, less of the wiping out entire cities and tribes on the way East and back).

Phoebus
15-12-2008, 17:55
Hmmm, about Dorn. There are really two main sources for the Iron Cage that I know of.

One paints the Iron Warriors as the solid winners--they deplete Dorn's force, they sacrificed the Geneseed of hundreds of his warriors, and Perturabo became a Daemon Prince.

The other paints the Imperial Fists as being purposefully led to the chopping block by Rogal Dorn--a sacrifice made necessary because his Legion supposedly won't accept being shrunken down. That's all very well and good, but the fact of the matter is that the Black Templars nonetheless go on to defy the Codex re-organization after the Iron Cage incident and before Dorn dies/disappears. This throws the Imperial Fists' Index Astartes article's credibility out the window (IMHO).

What I think is far more likely is that Dorn, devastated by his father's death, infuriated by his brothers' betrayals, and driven to extremes by Perturabo's taunting challenge, arrived at Sebastius IV not in exactly the clearest frame of mind. He had suffered greatly, and his opponent was the very traitor who not only had mocked his grief, but had sullied the Emperor's palace by battering through its walls. I think Dorn took it exactly the way Perturabo wanted him to--that is, very personally--and it affected his judgement. I believe Rogal Dorn was defeated by Perturabo, but I don't think Perturabo truly beat the Rogal Dorn. Does that make sense?

With that in mind, I think the tradition of the Iron Cage that comes from the Imperial Fists is basically that Chapter's attempt to rehabilitate the image of their Primarch after he died/disappeared. Calculated sacrifice and a noble, cleansing struggle replaced the grief and stubborness that overwhelmed him in the end.

nagash66
15-12-2008, 21:14
I never could take pappa smurf, i mean forcing youre own brothers at gunpoint ( you know he did) to do as you say, and what about the BA and the other legion without a primatch to lead them, lets order them about too, why cause my legion is the biggest and i have :wtf: need to order you about.

Also use to like fulgrim, then read the HH novel and he just lost all appeal to me.




or of modern Greeks remembering Alexander the Great as they do (more of the spreading culture and winning great battles, less of the wiping out entire cities and tribes on the way East and back).

Off topic i know may the mods forgive me, but after a week in FYROM (former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) i just had to say thank you for saying greek, thank you sooo much

Inquisitor Engel
15-12-2008, 21:33
What I think is far more likely is that Dorn, devastated by his father's death, infuriated by his brothers' betrayals, and driven to extremes by Perturabo's taunting challenge, arrived at Sebastius IV not in exactly the clearest frame of mind. He had suffered greatly, and his opponent was the very traitor who not only had mocked his grief, but had sullied the Emperor's palace by battering through its walls. I think Dorn took it exactly the way Perturabo did--too personally--and it affected his judgement. I believe Rogal Dorn was defeated by Perturabo, but I don't think Perturabo truly beat the Rogal Dorn. Does that make sense?

With that in mind, I think the tradition of the Iron Cage that comes from the Imperial Fists is basically that Chapter's attempt to rehabilitate the image of their Primarch after he died/disappeared. Calculated sacrifice and a noble, cleansing struggle replaced the grief and stubborness that overwhelmed him in the end.

This explanation, I can get behind. :)

Also, where does it say that the BT's wholeheartedly rejected the Codex before Dorn's death? I imagine Sigismund was still beholden to the wishes of his Primarch. I think it's far more likely that the BT's continued growth and rejection of the Codex occurred over time, as Crusades became more and more self-sufficient.

Phenski
16-12-2008, 00:08
How bout Primarchs we love?

I :::heart::: Konrad Curze!

but that NightHaunter guy was abit whack.... :p:confused::eek:

Caelnaethon
16-12-2008, 01:30
Corax and Ferrus Manus would be the two that bother me the most. They don't seem to have any depth and seem to exist only for the sake of their overused references and silly names. I wouldn't say that I hate them, though.

I acknowledge that Conrad Kurze is also a book/film reference, but he manages to be more than that as well.

djinn8
16-12-2008, 02:12
Fulgrim isn't that bad, or as I like to call him David Bowie.. ahum. Besides he's the only Primark other than Magnus to have a magic power... the power of glamour.

*jaz hands at the ready*

He's faaabulouuuus.

Same goes for Mortarion. I got the impression he was like a really lanky doctor with a morphine addiction who's always towering over you shoulder when you least expect it. Creepy.

Worst Primach has to be Angron, shallow as he is. Or possibly Token.. I mean Vulkan! Yes Vulkan, that's his name.

abasio
16-12-2008, 02:24
I only hate the primarches of the 2nd & 11th legions. Damn fools getting themselves deleted an all. Rookie mistake deleting everything when you have no back up!

Of the other 18 I don't hate any, they all cool in different ways. Even the epic fails are lovable :)

Hellebore
16-12-2008, 02:33
I dislike what they did with Ferrus Manus.

They took the established backstory of Vulkan and decided to give it almost wholesale to Ferrus Manus instead because he didn't have any character. Far better apparently to strip another character of their personality and ability and give it to another than actually come up with something new for him. :rolleyes:

He took vulkan's nice hammer (apparently Vulkan uses a SWORD in Fulgrim!? It's not like hammers were spread throughout his entire story in the Salamanders IA).
He took Vulkan's artificer ability (unmatched by anyone)

There wasn't a whole lot on Ferrus Manus, he was never described as tech savvy, he was never given a hammer. Both of those things were undeniably Vulkan and yet with the writing of Fulgrim they get pulled from him and given to Ferrus to the point where Ferrus tried to give Vulkan a gun and he rebuffed it because it wasn't made the way he wanted. Bascially Ferrus did everything better than Vulkan and so Vulkan didn't want his stuff.

It really irked me. here was a chance for Ferrus to get his own unique personality and abilities but instead they stole them from Vulkan, making him the crappy younger brother.

So I really hate what happened there.

Hellebore

Captain Stern
16-12-2008, 02:34
Too bad. It's canon now :rolleyes:

Hellebore
16-12-2008, 02:38
Yeah which begs the question, just exactly WHO IS Vulkan now? If the defining features crafted for him have been usurped by another primarch, what's left for Vulkan?

Not much I'll wager.

Hellebore

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-12-2008, 02:53
What's left for Vulkan, you ask? The same thing that should be applied to Marneus Calgar's naughty bits:

Fire, and lots of it.

Also, there's going to be a tale about Angron in the Tales of Heresy book. Hopefully they can flesh him out a bit... the extract has potential.

Captain Stern
16-12-2008, 03:43
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc152/hurin_the_steadfast/ShakaVulkan.png

If there was ever a Horus Heresy film (Emperor forbid) I always fancied Henry Cele as Vulkan. He died recently unfortunately.

WrYpoRrY
16-12-2008, 04:59
Guilliman, because (as Edonil said) I don't like indoctrination, and he has a stupid name, but mainly Lorgar.

He corrupted Horus, fell to Chaos first (for no good reason) and raised a legion of fanatical religious killers (not the good Imperial kind either).

kylsnik ironhead
16-12-2008, 05:02
Does the Emporer count cuse he is the one person in 40k whome I hate more then any.

Khaine's Messenger
16-12-2008, 05:08
Bascially Ferrus did everything better than Vulkan and so Vulkan didn't want his stuff.

Better? It seemed to me that Vulkan returned the gift because the weapon didn't feel right in his hands. Not because it was better than he could make, but because the way Ferrus could seemingly magic items together rather than actually go through the "full process" left them without a certain sense of spirit or value. Without forge-fire to give his personal creations life, everything Manus made could function flawlessly and yet still ring hollow. Which is why having Fulgrim as a favored brother was actually interesting. A mechanic and an artiste. Both produce things of value even if for different purposes, and they can see this quality in one another. But to their great frustration, most of their offspring are considered empty, shallow, or unsatisfying even if technically brilliant.

Contrast with Vulkan, who left a legacy of personal betterment through hard work, unity, and positive communal responsibility, an almost salt-of-the-earth personality. He apparently even left behind a collection of powerful relics for his children to find after the fact as a long-term test of their skills, per the new SM 'dex. Manus left nothing behind but an admonition to become strong, with no yardstick to judge the progression of this quality except for the simple fact that someone has to be top dog at any one point in time.

I mean yeah, as far as the novel Fulgrim is concerned, Manus stole Vulkan's thunder and hard. There weren't any scenes of Vulkan beating anything with a hammer, whether to beat it into shape or to kill it. And since Vulkan was supposed to be really big on forging stuff (the best, as has been said), leaving this out was pretty bad. But I don't agree that Manus stole anything from Vulkan except screen time.

Advocate
16-12-2008, 05:10
Lets see. Listed in ascending order, based on the number of their Legion:

Legio I, Lion El'Jonson:
Not enough information on him to make one call or the other. Angels of Darkness doesn't portray the Legion as a whole in a very good light, and Descent of Angels didn't do a really good job of fleshing him out, just "lolsecretive", which quite frankly was annoying. Both viewpoints given are rather extremist, which makes El'Jonson either an utter jerkor someone with all the emotional maturity of an adolescent.

Legio III, Fulgrim:
Annoying. The entire storyline seemed a bit...off. Possessed by a sword? Voices in his head? :rolleyes:

Legio IV, Perturabo:
With only the IA articles and the occasional reference in novels to go on, not enough information on him. Storm of Iron didn't give us much on him either.

Legio V, Jaghatai Khan:
Again, insufficient information for me to like or dislike him one way or another.

Legio VI, Leman Russ:
Frankly, I loathe and despise this character. The entire one-dimensional, viking-in-space motif had so much potential, but the only thing BL managed to do was to make him into one-half of the Imperium's answer to Khorne Berzerkers with furs instead of skulls for decoration.

Legio VII, Rogal Dorn:
Not much I could say here that hasn't been already said.

Legio VIII, Konrad Curze:
An interesting character. Lords of the Night certainly showed him in a new light, yet doesn't contradict established fluff overly much.

Legio IX, Sanguinius:
His character doesn't bother me so much, except for one thing. Greater Daemons are huge, and the Primarchs have been established to be not that much bigger than standard Marines, and yet he's able to break a Greater Daemon across his knee? What?

Legio X, Ferrus Manus:
Needs more writing to make the entire Legion less one-dimensional. Yeah, they like bionics. We get it.

Legio XII, Angron:
:rolleyes:

Legio XIII, Roboute Guilliman:
I'm still trying to understand what gave him authority to divide the Legions without the slightest bit of consultation with his brothers. Simply because he had the largest legion left, so might made right? Or was it because since he was the leader of Macragge he thought it automatically made him the leader of the new Imperium?

Legio XIV, Mortarion:
Again, almost zero characterization, can't say one way or another.

Legio XV, Magnus the Red:
Almost certainly the most tragic of Legions. His heart was in the right place, but ends up fighting on the wrong side due to both misdirection by Chaos and the fanaticism of the Space Wolves. Road to hell and all that, and his time it was almost literal :D

Legio XVI, Horus:
Well-written, definitely. The first three books of the HH series I would say are the best so far. Like him? Not so much. He certainly started out likeable, but as Galaxy in Flames came along he was well on the way to being the Warmaster we all loved to hate.

Legio XVII, Lorgar:
Another character we know little about, except that he went into a month-long sulk after Daddy reprimanded him.

Legio XVIII, Vulkan:
For a character on which so little has been written, he certainly seems to be the most "normal" of the Primarchs. Hopefully we'll get a HH novel on him.

Legio XIX, Corax:
Do we have anything besides the IA and a throwaway cameo in Fulgrim about him? I'd like to read more on him, but I can't seem to find any sources whatsoever.

Legio XX, Alpharius and Omegon:
I'm still not sure about the direction Dan Abnett took them in Legion, but since BL says its canon...

Frankly, I feel that there's far too little on the background on the character of the Primarchs to like or dislike them on any basis other than "I like the story of this Legion, so hey, I'm all for the Primarch, baby!" Of course, opinions in this post are subject to change once we get some more HH novels which hopefully flesh them out better. :D

ryng_sting
16-12-2008, 19:35
Angron - too one-dimensional. At least Russ had a sense of humour.

Ubermensch Commander
16-12-2008, 22:54
there's some really weird reactions on this thread. if people feel that strongly about disliking the Primarchs why play the game at all?

Because the game is fun, and if I find some characters very obnoxious, ah well. It makes crushing their armies that much more fun.


assuming that the manner of his death was indeed his only notable feat, Sanguinius would not be the only person in the history books who's only recorded for being a martyr. many people die as martyrs and aren't even recorded for it.

but in actuality that is a false image of Sanguinius. firstly, as a soldier in an army fighting that army's cause, he did not die a martyrs death. just an unpleasant one. and secondly, Sanguinius was every bit the angelic hero that he appeared to be; that we still don't know a great deal about him is not his fault. also his Legion, whilst suffering from Geneseed defects like ever legion, is not simply a scrofulous horde. only a small percentage of them succumb to the Red Thirst and when they do they are always deployed in tightly controlled millitary formations, not just let out like Wulfen or possessed are.


All the primarchs died fighting. Not a particularly noteworthy end in my opinion. So he he knew he would die....hurray? Again, playing up the matyr angle. The beatific nice guy thing doesn't hook me either. It was one of his traits sure, but so were the obvious mutations on his back.
Small percentage still = more than any other chapter. Even the Space Wolves do not do the Wulfen thing as often. And as far as I know (IE until retconned in next Space Wolf Codex, do not use the Wulfen in combat)
Tightly controlled? Flesh Tearers. Cannibalism. Blood Drinking. Entire Chapter.
All carriers of the Blood Angels gene seed may now kindly go on a penitent crusade right into the Eye of Terror please.

personally i have more distaste for the changing of the God Emperor into a petty mortal, simply to contend with the current fashion for supposed atheism. it completely flies in the face of the vast majority of Imperial background and makes an utter mockery of the things like the Sisters, Grey Knights and Word Bearers, which all existed before the idea that the Emperor did not think of himself as being a god was forced into the HH books.

Well originally the Primarchs weren't Primarchs either, we had lizardmen in space, Squats (the only thing I do m iss) and space marines were far more lunatic normal folks in armor as opposed to gene engineered spawn of superscience godlings.

So no, the Emperor being a mortal man does not fly in the face of Imperial background whatsoever and fluff for him being mortal (albeit the reincarnation of shamans) has been around since Rogue Trader days. I am sure it contradicts some bits of fluff, that is the nature of the beast. But I am also certain OTHER fluff coincides with it. The ascension to godhood idea was always post heresy and the religious stupidity of a back asswards imperium has always been a strong trend in the ol' grimdark universe of 40K.


EDIT* Ah Phoebus also addressed the godhood thing on page 4. Tis a good read, i agree with it.

Grimbad
16-12-2008, 23:19
Rubinek. Seriously, what was up with that guy?
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions#Rubinek

Lord Damocles
16-12-2008, 23:21
Rubinek. Seriously, what was up with that guy?
Black Library's inability to proof read.

Goofball-Inc
16-12-2008, 23:26
For Gulliman: I don't really think he made the decision to wrote the codex straight away, and there is a great wealth of characterisation that could come from that. (Maybe a Post-HH novel where it shows him a desperate man wanting to repair his father's empire, and the only way to do it is to split he and his brother's Legions)

For Sanguinius: Never really understood the hate. Here is a man who tookk on a great power of Chaos directly outside the walls of the Emperor's Fortress on Terra and lived. Here is a man who knew his fate, yet met it anyway, trying to convince his corrupted brother that his ways were wrong. Not only that, but his successors must also suffer his death everyday and fight against the reprecussions of such.

For Alpharius/Omegon: While I don't know alot about these guys, the whole Eldar showing him the future thing makes sense to me, even if it was them just meddling. I mean they can do that right? And if it gets rid of Chaos, then Alpharius, as a loyal Primarch under the Emperor, would do anything necessary to defeat their great enemy.

Lord-Caerolion
17-12-2008, 04:26
Ubermensch? Not all Primarchs died fighting. Curze accepted his death, as it proved his point. Corax vanished. Russ vanished. We don't know what happened to Vulkan. Sure, many died, but none of the others died sacrificing themselves for their Emperor, knowing what they were going in to, and that it would kill them bad. You seem to be a bit harsh on Sanguinius.

Koryphaus
17-12-2008, 05:18
I'd say Rogal Dorn would've known..

khirsath
17-12-2008, 05:28
I might as well throw in my 2cents, though I wouldn't say I love or hate any of the primarchs I just find some more interesting than others. Some just seem more compelling. Than again I like my primarchs to be more 'human' having flaws and refining characteristics. So many of the Heresy era stories fall short of there potential, I guess it's inevitable when exposing a time of legends.

Lion El'Jonson:
He seems like a really ambitious, and somewhat merciless person. Didn't like others stealing his limelight or bringing anything about him and his deeds into question. He'd be your friend as long as he benefited from it. We really don't know much about him, which is odd given how much there is written about his legion. I like the ambiguity as to whether he would have eventually sided with Horus or dear old dad.

Fulgrim:
He was obsessive. Certainly convinced of his own superiority, but always wanting to push it further. He believed he could master everything. His fall is tragic, as a literary character he had the highest of potential and a compelling story (too bad the novel executed it so poorly). His fall would have been better if it had taken longer (decades not a couple years). I was disappointed that his fall came at the hands of possession from a sword, seemed like it was just too easy. His spending eternity trapped in his body seeing what he has done is a great ending, but could have been brought about in a better way.

Perturabo:
This guy had little brother syndrome for sure. As has been stated above, he was relegated to guard duty and effectively told that he couldn't cut it like his brothers. Who wouldn't be bitter. Sure he had a rivalry with Dorn. Which probably started out as a professional rivalry until Dorn received all the accolades and Perturabo was pushed to the side. Really, we don't know much more about his personality to see why he rebelled. Is being bitter about your role and wanting to out-do your brother enough to betray your family and destroy what you've spent your life fighting for?

Jaghatai Khan:
He's Genghis Khan but in space, no wait, on a bike in space. Or is he? Sure there are aspects of the Mongols to him and his legion but we really don't know anything about his personality aside from a few snippets. All in all a very bland character

Leman Russ:
Borderline barbarian here. GW seemed to miss the potential for a much more interesting Norse-based character, opting for the stereotypes. He let his superstitions and prejudice make all the decisions for him. Never seemed like a rational type to me. He possessed the kind of loyalty only found in, well a dog. Seemed to personify ignorance and bigotry, which makes it odd that he was in charge of a legion whose existence was to unite and enlighten the worlds of the galaxy.
Rogal Dorn:

Konrad Curze:
He wasn't just seeing his demise, he was tormented by visions of the future. Maybe if he had been discovered earlier Dad or Old One Eye could have helped him control his psychic power. Here's a guy that raised himself in the worst place possible. He is a wild child, with little to know hope of assimilating into society. Still he had his own morals, his own code and he stuck to it! It differed greatly from everyone elses, but he at least had some depth to his character. Seeing the world through his eyes would not be a comfortable experience.

Sanguinius:
I actually find him to be somewhat of a flat character. There is too much emphasis on how wonderful he is, in personality as well as ability. All of this effort to try and make his death more tragic. Had he more depth I feel his martyrdom would have more resonance. Sure he foresaw his death and still met it, so he chose his end. Why not warn the Emperor, take more precautions? On the other hand, his legion did rival Angron's. I think there's a much darker side to be explored. One where he is tempted, and nearly falls. Or goes so far that the only redemption he can see is martyrdom

Ferrus Manus:
What do we know about this guy really? He stole most of Vulkan's story true, but it wasn't much to steal to begin with. He liked to build things, was a good friend of Fulgrim, and loyal to Dad. Oh, and he liked to wrestle with silver serpents. Other than that all we know is he had a particularly intense dislike for weakness (which nearly all his brother had in some manner). All in all Ferrus is kind of boring, which is too bad as he and his legion has so much potential.

Angron:
Look at me! I'm ANGRY!!! That about sums up the most one-dimensional character of them all. However, when your brain has been altered from an early age to be nothing more than a killing machine what do you expect. The ball was dropped here, they could have made Angron much more interesting as a noble warrior who had to resort to atrocious tactics and was haunted by it. GW likes its blood and skulls so if you want more out of Angron, World Eaters, or a quarter of the chaos pantheon you'll have to provide it yourself.

Roboute Guilliman:
Roboute is an odd mixture of Horus and Lorgar who just happened to end up on the loyalist side. He probably wanted Horus' job, which is why he'd never side with him. In the end that's pretty much what he got. He was all about indoctrination. He was right and there could be no better way to do things. He took advantage of the weak positions of his brothers to consolidate his power. It was under his reforms that the Imperium grew to be the opposite of everything that the Emperor was trying to forge. Makes you wonder who was pulling his strings, and once he outlived his usefulness...send in Fulgrim

Mortarion:
His personality, or all that we've seen of it, consists of 'Look at me, I'm tough'. He is so lacking in personality that he just goes along with whoever can beat him at something. First the Emperor on his home planet, than Horus who is a much better commander, than with papa Nurgle. From what I've seen he is one of the most boring of this band of brothers

Magnus the Red:
The outcast that always endeavored to do the right thing. He had a bit of Fulgrim's obsession in him, and a bit of Roboute's ego to boot. In the end he was always misunderstood or feared. A tragic character for sure. I feel sorry for the guy after all he did and having it backfire on him. A complex story for a primarch. So much so it seems out of place. In an age of enlightenment, or at least an age struggling to bring it to the galaxy, Magnus is the only one to reach for knowledge aside from his father. Knowledge by itself is not evil

Horus:
The Golden Child and favored son. I felt that Horus was done well in the first three books. I do feel that his corruption should have taken longer. That's my bias again about how quickly events play out in the novels. He was duped. He thought his father was up to something else, something that betrayed what he had spent centuries fighting for. Horus' ego, lured him into thinking he could do a better job. Like so many of his brothers his fall was due to pride, a very human weakness.

Lorgar:
The religious fanatic. Do we know much more about him? He had his faith shattered, and instead of accepting it he looked for other gods. Not that unusual for a fanatic. But what did Lorgar actually do? He sent an emissary to corrupt Horus, he sent Kor Phaeron to fight Roboute. He seems the type to convince others to do things for him. Lorgar indoctrinates others, but doesn't do much himself except write in his journal. I feel that he hasn't been developed at all. Perhaps GW doesn't want to delve into religious fanatics too deeply.

Vulkan:
Who is this guy? He likes to forge things. Treats normal humans decently. Has little ability to hold onto his own story, letting his brother take it away. Vulkan is an unknown, and undeveloped. Hopefully he will be fleshed out into something interesting in the future but I'm not holding my breath.

Corax:
The tragic version of Vulkan, with slightly more background story. So he failed, and was desperate to help in a time of turmoil only to fail again. Prone to depression apparently, what else do we know of Corax's psyche? Again, here is a chance for future books to do something interesting, but most likely it will end up being hundreds of pages of 'Woe is me'.

Alpharius and Omegon:
Oh those sneaky twins. They seemed like decent guys, believing more in what the Emperor was striving for than most of their brothers. I do think they were duped way too quickly. Especially as they were known as masters of deceit and conspiracy. Brilliant and unorthodox, wish we could get to know them better. Than again that would ruin the mystique.

Unknown Primarch #1:
I really like this guy

Unknown Primarch #2:
Of all the primarchs I hate this one the most

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-12-2008, 06:34
Perturabo:... Is being bitter about your role and wanting to out-do your brother enough to betray your family and destroy what you've spent your life fighting for?

Maybe if you're a god amongst gods among men who has spent nearly two centuries doing nearly the exact opposite of what you should be doing. If you look at it from the perspective of a Primarch, in relation to the scope of time involved (two centuries is a long time, I don't care how far in the future it is), it's difficult not to understand Perturabo's bitterness, in my opinion.


Rogal Dorn:

Tell us more? I like your style on these. ;)


Sanguinius:...On the other hand, his legion did rival Angron's. I think there's a much darker side to be explored. One where he is tempted, and nearly falls. Or goes so far that the only redemption he can see is martyrdom

On the rest I think I commented somewhat earlier in this thread. But, even as a die-hard Sanguinius fanboy, from here I can see your point clearly. There is definitely something to Sanguinius less beatific than the surface.

I think there's potential there if we ever get to see him in combat, dammit. All through the Horus Heresy series I've been begging for every page to show some sort of instance of Sanguinius getting mad pissed and kicking the everliving unmentionable out of some poor xenos/Chaos scum.

I think the first incident with Ka'Bhanda has some potential in this regard, especially in finding some sort of darkness in him and his Legion.


Angron:Look at me! I'm ANGRY!!! That about sums up the most one-dimensional character of them all.

I think they're trying. Some extracts from the Tales of Heresy book that's coming out soon seem to indicate that they want to delve a little deeper into Angron's bloody, bloody mind.


Unknown Primarch #1:
I really like this guy

I agree.


Unknown Primarch #2:
Of all the primarchs I hate this one the most

How could you? She has so much depth! And the plot, I mean, come on.

genestealer_baldric
17-12-2008, 07:02
the two missing one`s who could be botherd to be found by the emperor. If they wont make the effort to command a chapter then i dont care about them :)

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-12-2008, 07:10
:eyebrows: *twitch twitch* All Primarchs were found... :wtf: *twitch twitch* All Primarchs fought alongside their Legions... :mad: *twitch aneurysm* :skull:

: P

genestealer_baldric
17-12-2008, 07:16
There were 2 we didnt find out what happend to them :p

Firaxin
17-12-2008, 08:11
I've just had a thought that didn't occur to me before. Well, it is 4am, so I might just be cynical. But, perhaps GW only included that line to cut the ties between WFB and 40k?

khirsath
17-12-2008, 08:36
Wow, how did I not notice Dorn missing from above...?
A little addendum to my much longer post above

Rogal Dorn:
Dorn is a complex character, he is proud and loyal, but also pragmatic (initially) to the point his pride doesn't blind him. I think his behavior when Garro delivers the news about Horus exemplifies a lot of internal conflicts that later grows into almost a cancer, consuming him. He certainly was an opinionated primarch. Dorn seemed to really be behind the Emperor's goals. Just look at the guilt he feels about having to cover the palace with armour and what that symbolizes to him. He had to quickly overcome the shock of having his closest friends and brothers betray himself, his father, and his ideology so that he could build a defense. Then he finds his father and two of his brothers dead at each other's hands. Afterwards one of his brothers is taunting him, using the stinging barbs that only a sibling and close rival can conjure. Another brother is demolishing his fathers dream and recreating it in his own fashion. No wonder he snapped. Dorn is a complex character that had to endure several betrayals and his entire world fall apart. I say he has lots of potential to fleshed out. His story is possibly one of the most emotional of them all. We don't know his early years so there is lots of room to fill in the details. He is a character that can be captivating in the hands of the right author




On the rest I think I commented somewhat earlier in this thread. But, even as a die-hard Sanguinius fanboy, from here I can see your point clearly. There is definitely something to Sanguinius less beatific than the surface.


There are few things more terrifying than a serene angel letting loose his wrath. Sanguinius exemplifies all the aspects of a noble warrior and a blood thirsty killing machine. I'd like to see more about his temptation, too much about him reads like imperial propaganda. He's more interesting if he nearly falls. There is darkness to his soul.


hmm, did I get those last two primarchs mixed up again, I'm always doing that
:D

holmcross
17-12-2008, 09:26
Sanguinus is the worst. Anything with angel wings automatically loses for having one of the biggest design cliches out there. Not to mention being a little pretty boy prima-donna poster child of the Imperium. Every blood angel marine out there needs to be bound up and staked through the heart for being filthy little quasi-vampires. Vampires and prissy little tossers with angel wings. Jesus.

Lion El'Johnson is the runner up because of the stick up his ass. Lemmy R. fo' life.

Guilliman is just total snorecity.

genestealer_baldric
17-12-2008, 09:38
holmcross. i fully agree silly pansies flapping around the battle and drinking blood like grumpy vamp's (a goth varient i think) kids. but the largest stick is up the ultra's ass who are so by the book its so embarrassing.
Bring on the drunken space vikings .... for Russ

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-12-2008, 09:54
Hate for Sanguinius?

'zomg bushido-onewingangel-desu-vampire-goth lolololol.'

...only on Warseer.

What's with all the Russ love, anyway? He's a drunk mutt who can't see past his own bigotry in a so-called age of enlightenment. He's every male-inadequacy fantasy rolled into one- he took down a Titan with one blow... you kidding me? Not to mention being raised by wolves- that one's so old it founded Rome. He's not terribly two-dimensional himself- rabid lapdog with a real problem with magic tricks he can't understand sums him up about right. Hell, look at the name of his Legion- Space Wolves- and their homeworld- Fenris. Original? Don't make me laugh. He's your typical Viking-barbarian-recycled-IN-SPACE! And just for kicks, they even threw in werewolves for fun. Werewolves-recycled-IN-SPACE! Plus, because they're werewolves, they can't be corrupted by Chaos (Mark of the Wulfen). They're so special they can't have successors, too. Don't forget, they're nice guys (yeah, like any Space Marines can be truly nice guys). Besides, their so-called obsession with honor is a farce and stinks of more macho-macho chest-thumping. And the runes his Legion uses are blatantly Fantasy Dwarven, which are stolen from history in... I could go on but...

...I'm sure you can see what I did there by now.


There were 2 we didnt find out what happend to them :p

But we do know they were found, and that they became 'lost' in whatever fashion between that and the Heresy. :p


There are few things more terrifying than a serene angel letting loose his wrath. Sanguinius exemplifies all the aspects of a noble warrior and a blood thirsty killing machine. I'd like to see more about his temptation, too much about him reads like imperial propaganda. He's more interesting if he nearly falls. There is darkness to his soul.

Mmm. You should check out the '...not your 40k...' thread on the Bolter and Chainsword. It's about the Heresy in negative, basically; the Loyalists turn and the Traitors stay loyal. People over there are trying really hard to turn Sanguinius, but seem to be having trouble...

Lord-Caerolion
17-12-2008, 11:06
Kirsath, that still doesn't explain why Rogal went crazy at Night Haunter because Curze was having visions. He was a rather sycophantic guy, who couldn't stand anybody mocking his father.

Dvil
17-12-2008, 11:15
My least favourite Primarch is Russ. I used to think he was cool, but then I read Fulgrim. I mean, seriously? 4 legions just suddenly turn out to be traitors, so therefore if he asks for help to take them out, the first 7 to arrive must be loyalist, and don't deserve any suspicion, despite the finest tactical mind in humanity being one of those 4. Yeah, ok...

TheOverlord
17-12-2008, 11:30
I think you're mistaking Ferrus Manus for Russ.

holmcross
17-12-2008, 11:44
Sounds like someone has been dipping into Sanguinius's diseased gene-seed a bit too much :P

You're complaining about how far-fetched Lemmy Russ' fluff is? Uh, welcome to Warhammer 40k...? If the kitschy charm of this game's story doesn't appeal to you, what does?

Seriously, though. There is no way for a writer to preserve the slightest amount of literary integrity when he has to create a world where each army needs to kick ass and take names, but at the same time, not really making any of the other armies look bad in the process. Everything about 40k's fluff is WAY over the top, which is one of the reasons I find it so entertaining.

Leman Russ is a cross between Maddox's 'Alphabet of Manliness' and power armor. It should go without saying that this, is awesome. His appeal is also increased do to the ridiculously serious context that he is in (aka the dark tone of everything else in the imperium).

In short:

Lemmy R's stereotypical nature = funny, personable, entertaining and taken with a grain of salt.

Sanguinius is virtually the opposite of all those things.

Lord-Caerolion
17-12-2008, 11:44
Oh yeah, another point for why Rogal is an idiot. Who does he send to fight at Istvaan? The Night Lords! You know, the guys who the Emperor has ordered brought back to Terra, have destroyed their own homeworld, and gone rebel already. Seriously, why pick them? Rogal knew they'd gone rogue. Hell, it was due to a fight with Rogal that made Curze snap.
Really, I know he needed guys, but why send a guy who's already turned from the Emperor?

Rockerfella
17-12-2008, 11:44
Hate for Sanguinius?

'zomg bushido-onewingangel-desu-vampire-goth lolololol.'

...only on Warseer.

What's with all the Russ love, anyway? He's a drunk mutt who can't see past his own bigotry in a so-called age of enlightenment. He's every male-inadequacy fantasy rolled into one- he took down a Titan with one blow... you kidding me? Not to mention being raised by wolves- that one's so old it founded Rome. He's not terribly two-dimensional himself- rabid lapdog with a real problem with magic tricks he can't understand sums him up about right. Hell, look at the name of his Legion- Space Wolves- and their homeworld- Fenris. Original? Don't make me laugh. He's your typical Viking-barbarian-recycled-IN-SPACE! And just for kicks, they even threw in werewolves for fun. Werewolves-recycled-IN-SPACE! Plus, because they're werewolves, they can't be corrupted by Chaos (Mark of the Wulfen). They're so special they can't have successors, too. Don't forget, they're nice guys (yeah, like any Space Marines can be truly nice guys). Besides, their so-called obsession with honor is a farce and stinks of more macho-macho chest-thumping. And the runes his Legion uses are blatantly Fantasy Dwarven, which are stolen from history in... I could go on but...

...I'm sure you can see what I did there by now.

I've never really considered any of the above, but, you know what? You're actually right! :p

holmcross
17-12-2008, 11:46
He's every male-inadequacy fantasy rolled into one-

People in glass house shouldn't throw stones.

Reflex
17-12-2008, 11:55
Can i just sit in my corner and QQ for more fluff on Vulkan? I mean salamanders have such a raw deal at the moment.. they get royaly bitch slapped and loose possibly 80=90% of the chapter and then go home for the rest of the heresy. ... cries*

Darkstar2586
17-12-2008, 13:44
holmcross. i fully agree silly pansies flapping around the battle and drinking blood like grumpy vamp's (a goth varient i think) kids. but the largest stick is up the ultra's ass who are so by the book its so embarrassing.


Yep theres a southpark episode that shows the differences between goths and vampire kids :P haha

And you mean the ultras that are soooo by the book...that the ultra primarch wrote?
Its like saying Americas so up democracy's ass...but they live that way so they have to, its the way the country was created and is successful.

The ultras are doing everything by the book, because their primarch trained them this way. The book was written on how and why the ultramarines have been successful, not created for the ultras to follow. The Ultras were using these tactics and the such long before the book was written.

Dont want to sound like a fan boy but some of these statements are just shockingly inaccurate.

Besides unlike popular belief the imperial/crimson fists are probably the most adhering to the book.

Ultras had nid hunters ;)

genestealer_baldric
17-12-2008, 14:00
I was thinking of that south park episode when i wrote that ;)

"Ultras had nid hunters " - Darkstar2586

yes thats another reason why my hive mind hates them. I just reckon the ulta's need to "relax and chill out" :)

Darkstar2586
17-12-2008, 14:09
We are chilled, everything goes to plan when you've been brainwashed into thinking that it does.

btw have you seen the Forgeworld model of Ultra venerable dreadnought? Think ud like it!
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/umvdread.htm

Least fav is Lion El'Johnson because there's never much written on him...or Sanguinious and his being the most likely to be pin up model of the decade. Hes probably only so good in combat because everyones broken out laughing at how he might break a nail :P

genestealer_baldric
17-12-2008, 14:41
You sound remarkabley like the hive mind i obey. Yeah my mate thought it would be funny to use against me until my carnifex rugby tackled it and it broke oops shoddy workmanship :)

might break a nail lol, just been getting strange looks from people in the office for sniggering.

Phoebus
17-12-2008, 16:16
Legio I, Lion El'Jonson:
Not enough information on him to make one call or the other. Angels of Darkness doesn't portray the Legion as a whole in a very good light, and Descent of Angels didn't do a really good job of fleshing him out, just "lolsecretive", which quite frankly was annoying. Both viewpoints given are rather extremist, which makes El'Jonson either an utter jerkor someone with all the emotional maturity of an adolescent.


Lion El'Jonson:
He seems like a really ambitious, and somewhat merciless person. Didn't like others stealing his limelight or bringing anything about him and his deeds into question. He'd be your friend as long as he benefited from it. We really don't know much about him, which is odd given how much there is written about his legion. I like the ambiguity as to whether he would have eventually sided with Horus or dear old dad.

Man, I gotta tell you guys... I never got that out of reading anything about the Lion.

What I got out of his stories is that he is short-tempered, and slow to forget slights and insults. He seems to be the type that will carry a grudge forever--until he feels that honor has been satisfied. Even then, it appears that he might still not like the individual in question. If all the fluff about him and Russ is correct, then knocking the Space Wolf Primarch out after their fight just didn't cut it.

I don't see adolescent-like immaturity, nor do I see ambition or insecurities about glory, limelight, etc. What I do see is that tends to lack tact, or be considerate of others feelings and/or motivations. A prime example of this would be the occassion where he infuriated Russ by attacking a citadel whose master had personally insulted the Great Wolf.

The thing about this, though, is that El'Jonson is hardly unique in his flaws. Leman Russ had a lot of reasons to be angry at his brother, but he had no excuse to openly attack him for what amounted to injured vanity. It's not just Russ, either, though. Guilliman could be insuferable toward his fellow Primarchs. All of the Primarchs that eventually fell to Chaos had even more baggage, and the rest of the Loyalists (Sanguinius aside, since he was perfect...) simply didn't get as much backstory.

That's just my take, though! :)

Rockerfella
17-12-2008, 16:21
*claps*

Good oh! Excellent summary of the Lion, I feel. See, what you haven't done, is let your personal bent towards said primarchs take control and influence your opinions of them.

Which is refreshing.

Job well done.

Thanatos_elNyx
17-12-2008, 16:22
Well I hate Russ, for being the tool that he is that turned my Primarch to Chaos through his ignorance and fear of magick.

And all the following as well. QFT.


What's with all the Russ love, anyway? He's a drunk mutt who can't see past his own bigotry in a so-called age of enlightenment. He's every male-inadequacy fantasy rolled into one- he took down a Titan with one blow... you kidding me? Not to mention being raised by wolves- that one's so old it founded Rome. He's not terribly two-dimensional himself- rabid lapdog with a real problem with magic tricks he can't understand sums him up about right. Hell, look at the name of his Legion- Space Wolves- and their homeworld- Fenris. Original? Don't make me laugh. He's your typical Viking-barbarian-recycled-IN-SPACE! And just for kicks, they even threw in werewolves for fun. Werewolves-recycled-IN-SPACE! Plus, because they're werewolves, they can't be corrupted by Chaos (Mark of the Wulfen). They're so special they can't have successors, too. Don't forget, they're nice guys (yeah, like any Space Marines can be truly nice guys). Besides, their so-called obsession with honor is a farce and stinks of more macho-macho chest-thumping. And the runes his Legion uses are blatantly Fantasy Dwarven, which are stolen from history in...

Phoebus
17-12-2008, 16:50
Kirsath, that still doesn't explain why Rogal went crazy at Night Haunter because Curze was having visions. He was a rather sycophantic guy, who couldn't stand anybody mocking his father.
To be fair, though, if he was a sycophant... he wouldn't care if anyone mocked his father. The fact that he genuinely feels anger at that means he's not a sycophant. ;)


Oh yeah, another point for why Rogal is an idiot. Who does he send to fight at Istvaan? The Night Lords! You know, the guys who the Emperor has ordered brought back to Terra, have destroyed their own homeworld, and gone rebel already. Seriously, why pick them? Rogal knew they'd gone rogue. Hell, it was due to a fight with Rogal that made Curze snap.
Really, I know he needed guys, but why send a guy who's already turned from the Emperor?
I'm really not sure what was going on there. Graham McNeill wrote both "Fulgrim" and "The Dark King" in 2007. I can't for the life of me figure out how the timing between those two stories works out. :confused:

Rockerfella,

Thanks. :)

Captain Mike
17-12-2008, 18:03
Pertuarbo, or however you spell it. Egoistic, vain and too paranoid for his own good. He got angry when Rogal Dorn stated a fact, and let that turn him to chaos.

Rogal Dorn, on the other hand, rocks!! No more Dorn bashing, he saved Terra and tried to stop the Codex Astartes, which ruined the Space Marines. All round great guy. AND he wore yellow. So he wasn't afraid of being shot at!

khirsath
17-12-2008, 18:06
Well, one of Dorn's flaws is that he sometimes let his pride and/or anger take him into situations where conflict was inevitable. He certainly didn't have much tact when talking to the brothers he liked least. Sometimes it seems (and he's not the only one) that he torments his 'younger' brothers. A natural behavior for siblings that are close rivals. Perturabo sucks it up and goes and broods on it, where it eats away at him. In Curze's case, he was a bit unhinged, he just socks Dorn. As to why he sent Curze to Istvaan, I always felt he sent all the legions that were close by in hope that if Horus would come quietly if outnumbered by so much, to avoid killing so much astartes. Of course Horus anticipated such a reaction. Also Dorn may not have yet come fully to terms with the new Horus.

Phoebus--I agree about Lion's unforgiving nature, he certainly would hold a grudge and would show no mercy to those that insulted him.

one more thing:


Not to mention being raised by wolves- that one's so old it founded Rome.

I found this hilarious

Righter8
17-12-2008, 18:12
Horus - He just peed in the pool and ruined everyone's party.

McPherson
17-12-2008, 18:18
Perhaps i'm just out of touch but where is all this "Dorn held the palace, Dorn Saved Terra." spiel coming from?

Dorn designed the imperial palaces defenses yes, however during the siege Dorn and the Fists were on that floating platform, the palace was defended by Sanguinius, The Blood Angels and the Guard, and the Khan was busy trying to retake spaceports.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not hating on Dorn, just wondering if something changed recently in the fluff that i've missed being a long time Blood Angels player.

- McPherson

Captain Mike
17-12-2008, 18:22
Perhaps i'm just out of touch but where is all this "Dorn held the palace, Dorn Saved Terra." spiel coming from?

Dorn designed the imperial palaces defenses yes, however during the siege Dorn and the Fists were on that floating platform, the palace was defended by Sanguinius, The Blood Angels and the Guard, and the Khan was busy trying to retake spaceports.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not hating on Dorn, just wondering if something changed recently in the fluff that i've missed being a long time Blood Angels player.

- McPherson

Well the Imperial Fists were in two places at once; on Terra and floating in space. Bit of both. Legions are so big they can be in many places at once, as was required in the battle for Terra.

DemolishedMan
17-12-2008, 18:24
Horus - He just peed in the pool and ruined everyone's party.

Right on! :D

Goofball-Inc
17-12-2008, 21:16
I just thought of something about Sanguinius

The Black Rage and The Red Thirst are meant to be echoes of his death on his gene seed right?

What if when Horus killed him, he used some chaotic power and made the darkest sides of Sanguinius' psyche emerge. Then spread it into every Blood Angel into existence.

Also, I think there could be an interesting friendly rivalry thing with Gulliman and Sanguinius, since they are kind of opposing sides of the Space Marines

RCgothic
17-12-2008, 21:19
Nope, the rage kicked in for the first time when sanguinius was wounded fighting the bloodthirster.

laudarkul
17-12-2008, 21:27
Angron.' cause it is madness.
Mortarion. 'cause he choose chaos:rolleyes:
Vulkan.'cause there is such little information about him:D.

Advocate
17-12-2008, 21:31
Mortarion. 'cause he choose chaos:rolleyes:

Yeah, that's another thing that irks me when it comes to their characters. Horus, Fulgrim and Angron had their reasons for falling to Chaos, but Mortarion? Just because the Horus said so? :confused:

Draconian77
17-12-2008, 21:37
Russ.

It's really that simple.

Goofball-Inc
17-12-2008, 22:04
Nope, the rage kicked in for the first time when sanguinius was wounded fighting the bloodthirster.

Ah, that I did not know

Would be good if they explored that more

holmcross
17-12-2008, 22:21
Ah, that I did not know

Would be good if they explored that more

Its one of the main reasons why there is a theory that the 'black rage' actually originates from Khorne. That the voice in the heads of the blood angels is actually Khorne's. Of course, this idea royally pisses off sangy fans :)

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-12-2008, 23:43
Sounds like someone has been dipping into Sanguinius's diseased gene-seed a bit too much :P

Wouldn't have it any other way.


You're complaining about how far-fetched Lemmy Russ' fluff is? Uh, welcome to Warhammer 40k...? If the kitschy charm of this game's story doesn't appeal to you, what does?

You didn't get it when I said:


I'm sure you can see what I did there by now.

:p


Sanguinius is virtually the opposite of all those things.

Okay.


People in glass house shouldn't throw stones.

You couldn't resist going back for another go, eh?

To be honest, I could do what I did with Russ for every Primarch if I wanted to. But I chose Russ. It's fun to see wolves growl and whine.


I've never really considered any of the above, but, you know what? You're actually right! :p


And all the following as well. QFT.

Haha. It's not tough to rant about the Primarchs, really.


No more Dorn bashing

*looks at thread title*

:p


I found this hilarious

What can I say? 6th grade history teaches you something.


Its one of the main reasons why there is a theory that the 'black rage' actually originates from Khorne. That the voice in the heads of the blood angels is actually Khorne's. Of course, this idea royally pisses off sangy fans :)

It does? I like that story!

trigger
17-12-2008, 23:44
Russ.

It's really that simple.

Would you like to elaberate as to why you hate RUSS so much????

Advocate
18-12-2008, 00:08
To be honest, I could do what I did with Russ for every Primarch if I wanted to. But I chose Russ. It's fun to see wolves growl and whine.


Heh. However, you gotta give them credit where its due: At least they remain true to form every time someone says something bad about Russ.

EDIT: Although, lets be fair - almost anyone would react that way to any insults, real or imagined, towards their favourite Legion :)

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-12-2008, 00:08
Come on, everybody, I've done my part. Answer Trig's question. :p


Heh. However, you gotta give them credit where its due: At least they remain true to form every time someone says something bad about Russ.

True that. XD

trigger
18-12-2008, 00:18
What's with all the Russ love, anyway? He's a drunk mutt who can't see past his own bigotry in a so-called age of enlightenment. He's every male-inadequacy fantasy rolled into one- he took down a Titan with one blow... you kidding me? Not to mention being raised by wolves- that one's so old it founded Rome. He's not terribly two-dimensional himself- rabid lapdog with a real problem with magic tricks he can't understand sums him up about right. Hell, look at the name of his Legion- Space Wolves- and their homeworld- Fenris. Original? Don't make me laugh. He's your typical Viking-barbarian-recycled-IN-SPACE! And just for kicks, they even threw in werewolves for fun. Werewolves-recycled-IN-SPACE! Plus, because they're werewolves, they can't be corrupted by Chaos (Mark of the Wulfen). They're so special they can't have successors, too. Don't forget, they're nice guys (yeah, like any Space Marines can be truly nice guys). Besides, their so-called obsession with honor is a farce and stinks of more macho-macho chest-thumping. And the runes his Legion uses are blatantly Fantasy Dwarven, which are stolen from history in... I could go on but...

...I'm sure you can see what I did there by now.



You bastard :D By Russ's steel ******** im gunna hunt you down and kick you in the nutts.
But was quite funny though :)

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-12-2008, 02:48
You bastard :D By Russ's steel ******** im gunna hunt you down and kick you in the nutts.

Oh, great, another. Oh wait:


But was quite funny though :)

This one has a sense of humor. Nevermind. :D;)

Hellebore
18-12-2008, 03:08
What's with all the Russ love, anyway? He's a drunk mutt who can't see past his own bigotry in a so-called age of enlightenment. He's every male-inadequacy fantasy rolled into one- he took down a Titan with one blow... you kidding me? Not to mention being raised by wolves- that one's so old it founded Rome. He's not terribly two-dimensional himself- rabid lapdog with a real problem with magic tricks he can't understand sums him up about right. Hell, look at the name of his Legion- Space Wolves- and their homeworld- Fenris. Original? Don't make me laugh. He's your typical Viking-barbarian-recycled-IN-SPACE! And just for kicks, they even threw in werewolves for fun. Werewolves-recycled-IN-SPACE! Plus, because they're werewolves, they can't be corrupted by Chaos (Mark of the Wulfen). They're so special they can't have successors, too. Don't forget, they're nice guys (yeah, like any Space Marines can be truly nice guys). Besides, their so-called obsession with honor is a farce and stinks of more macho-macho chest-thumping. And the runes his Legion uses are blatantly Fantasy Dwarven, which are stolen from history in... I could go on but...

...I'm sure you can see what I did there by now.


You say all that like it's a bad thing.

I'll have you know some of my least known, rarely visited acquaintances are male-inadequacy fantasy macho-macho chest-thumping bigotted drunk mutts raised by wolves to become Viking-barbarian-werewolves-IN-SPACE!

Your appreciation for the baser parts of human nature is sorely lacking my barely known, rarely visited Domineering acquaintance...

Hellebore

Captain Stern
18-12-2008, 03:19
Russ used to fit perfectly in the background, back when he was one of the greatest primarchs in a great crusade that was greater, grander, more epic than it is now after its fashionable overhaul as a mission to spread secularism throughout the cosmos *groan*. He used to be a great character before the background was unceremoniously changed to fit what lesser, less experienced writers naively consider to be highly original, bold directions to take the story e.g. the loyalists were just as bad as the traitors, the Emperor was the real villain, Russ was always a c**t and Magnus was a tragic victim e.t.c.

This is Leman Russ:


Recollections of Bjorn:
He could remember things that were only legends to those who lived today. But mostly what he remembered was Russ, his Primarch: the roaring, roistering giant he had followed accross a hundred worlds in those ancient days. By all that was sacred, had there ever been another such man? He doubted it. Russ had been a giant, and there were no more giants left. It seemed impossible to believe that such a one as Russ could die. He had burned with life and power and pride.

Bjorn did not believe that he was dead. The power of the primarch had transcended mere mortality. He knew that somehow Russ would defy time and come back to the Fang one day.

Does that not strike a chord with any one else any more? Are your hearts so empty!?

That was Russ, not the more flawed than not charicature he's been reduced to in recent publications.

And before you clamour to expose me as a Space Wolves 'fanboy' let me make it clear that I'm not. I simply despair at the corruption of 40k as it was.

Starchild
18-12-2008, 05:08
I hate the two Primarchs of the Legions whose records were deleted following the Horus Heresy (Legion II and Legion XI).

Really! Whatever they did, it was *so wrong*, that even their very existence could never again be acknowledged... so base... so vile... not even Horus himself could match their depths of loathsomeness. At least Horus is acknowledged as existing. But not the Primarchs of the 2nd and 11th Legions! <shudder> :eyebrows: :(

genestealer_baldric
18-12-2008, 07:03
Why do people hate the Big Wolf?

all he wants to do do is go out and smack some cultist about have some fine food good beer and crawl up and fall alseep infront of the fire, what wrong with keeping it simple and having good laugh and drink with brothers in arms, rather than making thing over complicated or dead serious :D

you other chapters take life to serious:angel:

my only conclusion is that all u Russ haters is that you are cat rather that dog people :D

khirsath
18-12-2008, 08:06
my only conclusion is that all u Russ haters is that you are cat rather that dog people :D

Would that mean everyone is a Lion El'Johnson fan then? :p

Reflex
18-12-2008, 08:22
Why do people hate the Big Wolf?

all he wants to do do is go out and smack some cultist about have some fine food good beer and crawl up and fall alseep infront of the fire, what wrong with keeping it simple and having good laugh and drink with brothers in arms, rather than making thing over complicated or dead serious :D

you other chapters take life to serious:angel:

my only conclusion is that all u Russ haters is that you are cat rather that dog people :D

Thats it... he was a primarch who acted like a sheep dog... not something i would idealise or follow the orders of.

genestealer_baldric
18-12-2008, 08:45
Would that mean everyone is a Lion El'Johnson fan then? :p

yeah if dont follow Russ, or are allergic to cat hair.

Also russ wouldn't leave hair balls alll over the place. :D

Thats it... he was a primarch who acted like a sheep dog... not something i would idealise or follow the orders of. -reflex

thats basically what 99% imperium allready do follwing blindly the otrders from terra without question :p just like sheep :eek:

Koryphaus
18-12-2008, 08:58
Also russ wouldn't leave hair balls alll over the place.

At least cats bury their droppings..:eek:

Rockerfella
18-12-2008, 09:06
And clean themselves. And aren't dependent on you. And are clever in ways a dog can never be. Oh, and pound for pound, are much deadlier too.

Me, a cat person? No... simply making an observation. I'm allergic to cats, actually.

But I like Sterns post of Russ. Yeah, it warmed the cockles and struck a chord with me. I like that kind of thing.

It dosen't really say anything though..... does it?

holmcross
18-12-2008, 09:20
And clean themselves. And aren't dependent on you. And are clever in ways a dog can never be. Oh, and pound for pound, are much deadlier too

Haha, pound for pound? Enter the ant that comes in and kick both of their asses.

But to stay on topic: I'd take the average cat over the average dog, but an above average dog beats the above average cat anyday.

genestealer_baldric
18-12-2008, 09:27
cats are small angry and give a smug aura of self satifcation and leave half dead "presents" on your bed at night for some un fathomable reason.:confused:

i would say dogs can be just as smart as cats, they are more loyal than a cat would ever be :p

yeah ive got bit side traked with talking about cat and dogs. ;)


lets just say some people are Space Wolves people and some arn't (the wrong ones) :D

burtnernie
18-12-2008, 09:28
Official from when I spoke with Mr Kelly at GD. 08.

SW's are one of the most loved SM chapters by some way... this backed by the fact that every year there are SW models in the top Golden demon standings... the Bill King books rate as some of the most interesting and detailed.

Recycle all you like, cos people can relate to Space Wolves... and the fact that he don't like magic tricks, well neither did the emperor, hence the council of Nikea, so surely he was just so passionate about fulfilling his masters dream.

So he was fanatical, I think you pretty much have to be to conquer a world, let alone a galaxy...

But you could say the same for so many other chapters, Blood Angels nearly went the Vampire cliche route, everyone hates ultramarines, why? cos they are too goody goody, cos they made the rules. OMG :cries: wail, crai, gansh teeth.... my beloved Iron Hands are crap in the game cos they use "Vanilla" aka ultramarines rules, ergo Guilleman made my Iron Hands crap!!!

The cliche behind the whole redemption story of the Dark Angels, the biker mice from mars that are blatently the White Scars, the siege specialist having a fued with, none other than the defense specialist... i'm almost aghast.

Now back on track.... so SW's are a tad, ripped from the book, so what, open your eyes, so are so many other things in this game!!

Hell most of the named characters have a representation from the Bible.

Reflex
18-12-2008, 10:15
thats basically what 99% imperium allready do follwing blindly the otrders from terra without question :p just like sheep :eek:

Cept the rest of the imperium isant 1 of 20 super human who where the foundation of genetically enhanced warriors.

russ was a tool (and i dont mean the useful kind u get out of a box) end of story...

Phoebus
18-12-2008, 10:22
I hate the two Primarchs of the Legions whose records were deleted following the Horus Heresy (Legion II and Legion XI).

Really! Whatever they did, it was *so wrong*, that even their very existence could never again be acknowledged... so base... so vile... not even Horus himself could match their depths of loathsomeness. At least Horus is acknowledged as existing. But not the Primarchs of the 2nd and 11th Legions! <shudder> :eyebrows: :(
The latest fluff indicates that it wasn't so much a case of them being *worse* than Horus as it was that their "separate tragedies" proved Primarchs aren't perfect. Judging by the fact that their fates are concealed even before the Heresy breaks out, methinks it's much more likely that the Emperor didn't want people knowing his "demigod" sons were, indeed, mortal and flawed.

Following the Heresy, there was no secret to keep. Conversely, there would be no one to really let people know what happened to the two Missing Legions if anyone thought to ask. Hence, the difference in the classfication between Traitors and "Missing".


Russ used to fit perfectly in the background, back when he was one of the greatest primarchs in a great crusade that was greater, grander, more epic than it is now after its fashionable overhaul as a mission to spread secularism throughout the cosmos *groan*.
Honestly, I don't think Russ has changed.

Where secularism is concerned, that wasn't the object of the Crusade. Secularism was merely a tool used to protect Humanity from the very real threat of Chaos. Do you honestly think the Emperor would have stifled religion if it wasn't a way for fell Chaos powers to wreak havoc on Humanity?


But to stay on topic: I'd take the average cat over the average dog, but an above average dog beats the above average cat anyday.
I would beg to differ. Cats include tigers, lions, cheetahs, panthers, leopards, etc. You have to add that to the average. By virtue, there are far fewer "great canines" out there. :D

burtnernie
18-12-2008, 10:39
I would beg to differ. Cats include tigers, lions, cheetahs, panthers, leopards, etc. You have to add that to the average. By virtue, there are far fewer "great canines" out there. :D

I would stake money on a pack of wolves over the above any day...

I watched a programme on how they track animals and the distances they cover and can hear/smell over... fantastic.

holmcross
18-12-2008, 10:40
I would beg to differ. Cats include tigers, lions, cheetahs, panthers, leopards, etc. You have to add that to the average. By virtue, there are far fewer "great canines" out there. :D

Touche, my friend.

Koryphaus
18-12-2008, 10:54
I would beg to differ. Cats include tigers, lions, cheetahs, panthers, leopards, etc. You have to add that to the average. By virtue, there are far fewer "great canines" out there. :D

Hey, the 1st line of defence in many airports is a Beagle (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/i/beagle.jpg)! :p

Don't forget, in our Above Average Cat Vs Above Average Dog contest, we need to take into account organisation. Felines are ambush predators, whereas canines wear their prey down over distance. Most cats live and hunt alone, dogs, wolves, hyenas etc hunt in packs.

Out of the Lion and the Wolf, who was the best at strategy, tactics, logistics? I'm not after the victory tally, though it is formidably impressive for both leaders. But who had the best organisational skills?

genestealer_baldric
18-12-2008, 10:59
people seem rather passionate about this canie vs feline debate, having said that i agree that "burtnernie" is correct i reckon that a pack of wolves could even beat a pride of lions(cos they could cope with the cold :D)

cos most cat pride a small in number but wolf packs can be alot bigger. :p

if felines are so deadly why dont the DA get to use lions in game like the SW get to use wolves.?;)

burtnernie
18-12-2008, 11:06
people seem rather passionate about this canie vs feline debate, having said that i agree that "burtnernie" is correct i reckon that a pack of wolves could even beat a pride of lions(cos they could cope with the cold :D)

cos most cat pride a small in number but wolf packs can be alot bigger. :p

if felines are so deadly why dont the DA get to use lions in game like the SW get to use wolves.?;)

Using Caliban "Lions" would definitely turn a few more eyes on the already scrutinised weasels in the dark...

Koryphaus
18-12-2008, 11:29
i reckon that a pack of wolves could even beat a pride of lions(cos they could cope with the cold :D)
cos most cat pride a small in number but wolf packs can be alot bigger. :p

Hmm.. I doubt that. Cats are clever, and only ever fight on their own terms (that's why housecats wait until you aren't looking before clawing your leg!). Anyway, how well would a pack of wolves go in the African heat?Lion prides number up to 30. That's a lot of power there. Plus they travel up to 15 miles a day if they're hunting (when they aren't sleeping!), can run at more that 60 kph, leap 4 metres and kill a Cape Buffalo..


if felines are so deadly why dont the DA get to use lions in game like the SW get to use wolves.?;)

I want to do that! I don't even play either SW or DA, and I still want to use Lions!! They'd be so mad, I could get some Ogre Saberlions or something.. Use Chaos Daemons summoning rules and Flesh Hounds to represent the ambush..

Curse you, possibilties and ideas!!

genestealer_baldric
18-12-2008, 11:41
:eek: hummm i wonder if could design a new SW Vs DA battle using only wolves and lions:D

Koryphaus
18-12-2008, 12:27
Definately. Check out the creature feature rules on the GW site.

genestealer_baldric
18-12-2008, 13:02
ok will do thanks, should be fun little side game :D

Hellebore
18-12-2008, 13:13
Hey, the 1st line of defence in many airports is a Beagle (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/i/beagle.jpg)! :p

Don't forget, in our Above Average Cat Vs Above Average Dog contest, we need to take into account organisation. Felines are ambush predators, whereas canines wear their prey down over distance. Most cats live and hunt alone, dogs, wolves, hyenas etc hunt in packs.

Out of the Lion and the Wolf, who was the best at strategy, tactics, logistics? I'm not after the victory tally, though it is formidably impressive for both leaders. But who had the best organisational skills?

I'm a wolf man so I'd back wolves against lions. The lowest latitude wolves live in Syria, which is desert, so the whole 'hot africa' doesn't really work against wolves. Dogs are generalists, whilst cats are specialists. In the evolutionary arms race, generalists win over specialists every time.

Lion El'Jonson was definitely the best organiser. The battle that led to their fight had him surveying the enemy for days planning his assault. Russ got pissed at the insult hurled at him and just wanted to storm in.

Hellebore

Thanatos_elNyx
18-12-2008, 15:58
... but an above average dog beats the above average cat anyday.

I dunno, I think an above average cat (i.e. a Tiger; the biggest in the cat family) could take an above average dog (i.e. a Wolf; the biggest in the dog family).


I would stake money on a pack of wolves over the above any day...

I watched a programme on how they track animals and the distances they cover and can hear/smell over... fantastic.

I remember seeng on Discovery that in Lions Vs Hyenas fights, that Lions were worth about 6 hyenas (Yeah, I know Hyenas aren't as 'cool' as Wolves, but they do operate in a similar hunt-pack structure). Thats pretty impressive odds for a big kitty.


I'm a wolf man so I'd back wolves against lions. The lowest latitude wolves live in Syria, which is desert, so the whole 'hot africa' doesn't really work against wolves. Dogs are generalists, whilst cats are specialists. In the evolutionary arms race, generalists win over specialists every time.

I would disagree that Cats are specialists and dogs generalists. Dogs operate in packs, and if a dog is caught out on his own he is pretty much screwed. Cats can operate in feline societies but for the most part are independent.


if felines are so deadly why dont the DA get to use lions in game like the SW get to use wolves.?;)
I have yet to see a decent GW cat model.

On Topic: Aside from Leman Russ is teh Sucks, teh lame and teh fail. The other primarches that I dislike includes Fulgrim, for his stupidity; Horus, for not heeding Magnus's words and basically bringing about the world that he was trying to avoid; and Sainguinius, for the fanwank he inspires in his fanboys (he killed a Bloodthirster, no wait it was the king of Bloodthirsters; he got pwned by Horus, no wait he opened a chink in his armour; etc).

Rockerfella
18-12-2008, 16:46
I dunno, I think an above average cat (i.e. a Tiger; the biggest in the cat family) could take an above average dog (i.e. a Wolf; the biggest in the dog family). Without question... relative size, power and speed is a massive factor here. *nods*




I remember seeng on Discovery that in Lions Vs Hyenas fights, that Lions were worth about 6 hyenas (Yeah, I know Hyenas aren't as 'cool' as Wolves, but they do operate in a similar hunt-pack structure). Thats pretty impressive odds for a big kitty. Indeed. And the one I saw, big Pappa cat got involved too. The Hyena pack works on a Matriachal system. So the first thing the Alpha male Lion did, was steam into twenty Hyenas, grab the Matriach and kill her with ONE bite to her ribs. Not very pretty. He then stands up and kinda goes 'Right... come on then. Who's next? Fancy a little?' and all the other Hyenas do one, quickly.

You can see that on youtube actually! Veru interesting stuff. *s*




I would disagree that Cats are specialists and dogs generalists. Dogs operate in packs, and if a dog is caught out on his own he is pretty much screwed. Cats can operate in feline societies but for the most part are independent. Aye, completely independent. The average cat can go gets its own dinner. I'm afraid the next door neighbours Scottie can't go get anything, other than the stick they throw at it to fetch. This dog isn't a generalist at anything, but he's a specialist at fetching sticks. You throw a stick for a cat, and you can kind of see it thinking 'Go get it yourself, you lazy t**t!

I have yet to see a decent GW cat model.


On Topic: Aside from Leman Russ is teh Sucks, teh lame and teh fail. The other primarches that I dislike includes Fulgrim, for his stupidity; Horus, for not heeding Magnus's words and basically bringing about the world that he was trying to avoid; and Sainguinius, for the fanwank he inspires in his fanboys (he killed a Bloodthirster, no wait it was the king of Bloodthirsters; he got pwned by Horus, no wait he opened a chink in his armour; etc).

Ah, the classic 'Yeah but' argument you so often encounter. ;)

Noserenda
18-12-2008, 16:59
Of course a lone Lion beats a lone wolf... They evolved as pack creatures and are more effective for it.

And most breeds of dog arent actually that bad an hunting when in need, its only the ones bred to be ornamental that tend to suffer. However as pack animals they rely on their Alpha (IE you) to get them food. Which is ofc a gross generalisation :D

The differences between a House cat and dog is that Dogs are useful animals, bred into a variety of forms for tasks. Cats are however an inherently useless animal kept around to be decorative (Like some dogs) and so remains more true to its "wild" ancestors.

Staying vaguely on topic, I suspect Russ and Sanguinius suffer in popularity less due to their characters, but more due to the bias of their critics. The Angel and the Barbarian both suffer at the hands of different types of geeks. The same reason Magnus tend to be popular despite being an idiot :chrome:

Firaxin
18-12-2008, 17:12
I dunno, I think an above average cat (i.e. a Tiger; the biggest in the cat family) could take an above average dog (i.e. a Wolf; the biggest in the dog family).
gnoez!!1! you don't understand, the biggest dog in the family is a werewolf!
;)



The lowest latitude wolves live in Syria, which is desert
Antarctica is a desert too, you know. Desert =/= hot.


Cats are however an inherently useless animal kept around to be decorative (Like some dogs) and so remains more true to its "wild" ancestors.
Back in the day, when I was still a young whipper snapper and everyone's roof was made of straw, cats were very useful because they kept rats out of your food, kept you warm in the winter, and you didn't have to feed them.

genestealer_baldric
18-12-2008, 17:27
and yeah a lion may munch on a hyena but i was thinking more of wolves. i also dont think lion go around in groups of 20:confused: - as was mentioned before but wolves do.

and its not all about strenght but speed and manoveriblity. thats why wolves can take down things alot bigger and stonger but attacking undefened areas then pulling back before a it can respond and then keep doing it again and again till they wear it down. wolves can hunt the same thing for days at a time not stoping a cat after 30 min would quit and go have a nap.:)

this is probbaly one of the best off topic arguments ever, its gone from which primarch we hate the most to which is better cats or dogs which is silly because its obviously dogs:)

Firaxin
18-12-2008, 18:11
wolves can hunt the same thing for days at a time not stoping a cat after 30 min would quit and go have a nap.:)
Now you're comparing wolves to house cats... :eyebrows:

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-12-2008, 18:31
and the fact that he don't like magic tricks, well neither did the emperor

I'm just gonna sit back... relax... and let you guys figure out how very ironic this is.


Now back on track.... so SW's are a tad, ripped from the book, so what, open your eyes, so are so many other things in this game!!

I made my post somewhat ironically... but yeah. Like I said, I can do that for all the Primarchs. I just figured that using Russ would get several pages of wolf-squee and an eventual debate on the virtues of cats and dogs.


But who had the best organisational skills?

Undoubtedly *spits* Guilliman.


Ah, the classic 'Yeah but' argument you so often encounter.

But but but but but it's t-t-t-true! :cries::cries::cries::cries:

Rockerfella
18-12-2008, 18:34
Hyenas are massive dogs, and have a bite power that makes a wolves look puny. They are as dangerous, if not more so, than wolves. Plus, they knock about in packs of well over 20 individuals. Spotted Hyenas weight about the same as the largest Wolves, so.. there's not much in it really.

If a male lion can single handedly scatter a sizeable group of Hyenas, he would certainly do it to a group of wolves. He just runs that dog down like the dog it is.....Oh....wait.... *i'll get me coat*

A male lion can weight over 400lbs, is pure muscle, designed to do nothing other than eat, sleep, and fight things. He will protect the Pride from anything, and only ever steps in when he feels the pride is somewhat under threat.

The difference between wolves bringing down much stronger animals (which lions do too, remember, like Buffalo and even Giraffes) is that if Wolves attacked lions, they bite back. And harder.

There isn't really a comparison here. One on one, the Wolf is just so far out of its league its frightening. Its why Hyenas aren't daft enough to attack a Lion whilst they're on their own.

To be fair, a better one on one encounter would be a mountian Lion, or Cougar, vs a grey Wolf.

I'm sure there was once a programme on discovery that dealt with this, called 'Animal Face off'. They had all kinds of experts in throwing opinions around. Twas very informative indeedy! Great white vs Salty Croc. Cougar vs Wolf. Lion vs Tiger. You get the gist...

Sorry guys. I've just realised i've spent ten minutes posting so off topic its frightening. A thousand apologies! Apologies abound!

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-12-2008, 18:54
Just throw in a bit about how Lions whupping Wolf ass is relevant to the Primarchs (hmm... I dunno... how could this one possibly go? ;)) and you'll be good. No need to apologize... well, not to me. I'm sure the Russ fans will be baying for your blood. :p

Rockerfella
18-12-2008, 18:58
Just throw in a bit about how Lions whupping Wolf ass is relevant to the Primarchs (hmm... I dunno... how could this one possibly go? ;)) and you'll be good. No need to apologize... well, not to me. I'm sure the Russ fans will be baying for your blood. :p

Haha! What, could they be baying for my blood any more than they already are, after my assertion that Russ couldn't knock over a titan with one PUNCH??

I think i've upset them enough! ;)

genestealer_baldric
18-12-2008, 20:54
wolves hang around in pack of 20, lions around 5 female and 1 male and 1 youing male on avarage i think, so the lions would be out numbered.

And as my fellow rippers can explain how they have taken out terminators just because we have numbers on our side.:p

do wolves on ferris come with under slung grenade launchers:angel:

did he punch it in er how do i put it "meat and two veg" :evilgrin: and the pricpus (sp?) fall over in due tranfer pain hence over the titan falls.

Rockerfella
18-12-2008, 21:01
wolves hang around in pack of 20, lions around 5 female and 1 male and 1 youing male on avarage i think, so the lions would be out numbered. That dosen't matter. Becasue if a pride of say, five, six.. seven lions can see off 20 Hyenas, then they can see off 20 Wolves.




did he punch it in er how do i put it "meat and two veg" :evilgrin: and the pricpus (sp?) fall over in due tranfer pain hence over the titan falls.

Hahaha, yeah, I know what you mean. In the baby makers. Well... *shrugs* Not unless he was 25 metres tall (and, shhhhhhh, but some folk on this thread actually think Russ was that tall.....) ;)

genestealer_baldric
18-12-2008, 21:17
Hahaha, yeah, I know what you mean. In the baby makers. Well... *shrugs* Not unless he was 25 metres tall (and, shhhhhhh, but some folk on this thread actually think Russ was that tall.....) ;)[/QUOTE]

or "they" hung very low.:D
You mean he wasnt. Shock Horror :eek: or may b it was a titan with a growth problem.

Rockerfella
18-12-2008, 21:19
Oooooooh. Now there's a mental image I wasn't prepared for......

Koryphaus
18-12-2008, 21:59
wolves hang around in pack of 20, lions around 5 female and 1 male and 1 youing male on avarage i think, so the lions would be out numbered.

Lion prides can number up to 30 individuals..

Inquisitor Engel
18-12-2008, 22:04
Are you guys seriously comparing Russ and Jonson to animals on the plains of Africa?

:eyebrows:

Rockerfella
18-12-2008, 22:11
Hey, if Russ can punch a titan and knock it over, I can compare lions, Zebras, wolves and lemmings if I want! ;)

Koryphaus
18-12-2008, 23:03
Are you guys seriously comparing Russ and Jonson to animals on the plains of Africa?

You mean you aren't? :eyebrows:

trigger
19-12-2008, 00:20
Why are you people useing wolves as your example against a lion?????

There is a breed of dog that was bread for killing lions , The rodesian ridge back (sorry for the spelling)
It takes 8 of them to kill a male lion, a whole 8.
And yes a rodie will beet a wolf 1 on 1 , as would the irish wolf hound, and possibly a rotty.
But back to the lion thing , dimestic cats beet dimestic dogs, wild cats beet wild dogs, thats why the lion is the king of the jungle.

(I cant belive it , i read this and said i was not going to comment on it , and now look what you have made me done....grrrrrrr)

Oh and im a SW player, to all you russ haters ,:P

Eisen
19-12-2008, 00:44
...thats why the lion is the king of the jungle.

Well, that and the shocking shortage of jungle-dwelling canines. Not like there are a lot of lions in the jungle, either, come to think of it.

Having added that irrelevant aside, I'm torn - Sanguinius for being IMO the most ridiculously gothy Primarch (come on, lots and lots of red, inhuman, ethereal beauty, and wings, dagnabbit!), or Russ, for appealing to the "GRAAR! THOR SMASH!" Norse stereotype. The entire idea of my nascent SW army is that they're essentially exiles because their leader is more the sneaky Viking than the hulking berserker. Plenty of evidence for it too, just look at Harald Haadraade's time in the Varangian Guard.

trigger
19-12-2008, 01:18
I dont know were you get the idea of russ or the wolves as being the 'Graaar hulk/thore smash ' thing from.

The vikings and the norse had alot more to them , yes they were both war hungry race's but they were not quite as barbaric as you all seem to think.

Yes russ did what the emperor said , he was a good general , and he may have been a tad head strong, but he was no berserker.\
As for sanguinius were does all this goth crap come from, he has possible got the most tragic background of them all. He has to watch as his closest friend and brother falls from grace and stes to destroy everything they have fought for. He the has a vision of his death at the hands of said brother, but still he goes to the fight , not to become a martyr , but to save humanity, he goes to fight his best friend , every one knows goths dont have friends.

Hellebore
19-12-2008, 02:08
Indeed. And the one I saw, big Pappa cat got involved too. The Hyena pack works on a Matriachal system. So the first thing the Alpha male Lion did, was steam into twenty Hyenas, grab the Matriach and kill her with ONE bite to her ribs. Not very pretty. He then stands up and kinda goes 'Right... come on then. Who's next? Fancy a little?' and all the other Hyenas do one, quickly.


Hyenas are actually feliforms not caniforms. Male lions are built the way they are for intraspecies conflict with other males.



Aye, completely independent. The average cat can go gets its own dinner. I'm afraid the next door neighbours Scottie can't go get anything, other than the stick they throw at it to fetch. This dog isn't a generalist at anything, but he's a specialist at fetching sticks. You throw a stick for a cat, and you can kind of see it thinking 'Go get it yourself, you lazy t**t!




I would disagree that Cats are specialists and dogs generalists. Dogs operate in packs, and if a dog is caught out on his own he is pretty much screwed. Cats can operate in feline societies but for the most part are independent.


I think you misunderstand the terms generalist and specialist. In biology generalists have wide ranging behaviours whilst specialists have a narrow set of behaviours. Generally referring to eating behaviours, it is also applied to other things as well.

Caniforms are omnivorous and many canids specifically can and do eat vegetable matter (this is why dog foods contain a lot more grain and vegetable matter than cat foods). Feliforms are very specialised carnivores.

In evolutionary terms specialists are well adapted for the short term, but tend to die out in the long term. Generalists on the other hand survive indefinitely because they are not completely dependent on a specific food source or environment.

As to domesticated cats and dogs, they were bred for different things. I doubt very much that a wolf would find it difficult to get its own food. Cats were generally a lapanimal. They were bred for appearance only. Dogs were bred for working and so specific behaviours that are good for specific jobs were encouraged. Dogs like setters, cavaliers, pointers etc all were bred for very narrow purposes.

Cats aren't really domesticated at all, they still possess most of their wild instincts. Dogs are much more like chickens, cows and sheep - they've been heavily modified for human use. Cats need only look pretty. They even bred specific dogs to do the work that cats are supposed to do. Catch rats etc.



I dunno, I think an above average cat (i.e. a Tiger; the biggest in the cat family) could take an above average dog (i.e. a Wolf; the biggest in the dog family).


Depends where you draw the line. The caniforms are much more specious than the feliforms (due to their generalist nature) and includes such things seals, mustelids (racoons etc) and BEARS.

There are some amazing wolf packs in British Columbia iirc that have adapted their hunting behaviours to kill and eat grizzly bears.

Of course they both pale in comparison to wolverines who kill and eat bears by themselves. But again, the wolverine is a caniform...

Hellebore

Rockerfella
19-12-2008, 02:32
Hyenas are actually feliforms not caniforms. Male lions are built the way they are for intraspecies conflict with other males. Very good. But, whats this got to do with the above quote? Male lions will fight anything. They're genetically programmed to protect the pride they dominate, not just from other males who may be stepping on their patch, as it were.






I think you misunderstand the terms generalist and specialist. I was being facitious, actually. I understand the terms pretty well good sir! ;)

Caniforms are omnivorous and many canids specifically can and do eat vegetable matter (this is why dog foods contain a lot more grain and vegetable matter than cat foods). Feliforms are very specialised carnivores. Truly, Google is your friend. ;)


In evolutionary terms specialists are well adapted for the short term, but tend to die out in the long term. Generalists on the other hand survive indefinitely because they are not completely dependent on a specific food source or environment. Interstingly, cats are still here, and so are dogs. This is a food chain issue, surely. If there are enough mice for a cats to catch, they will live for as long as however the mice last, as an example. Or rats. My guess is, that will be a very long time.




Cats aren't really domesticated at all, they still possess most of their wild instincts. Dogs are much more like chickens, cows and sheep - they've been heavily modified for human use. Cats need only look pretty. They even bred specific dogs to do the work that cats are supposed to do. Catch rats etc. Which is why I think I prefer Cats. Dogs are needy and tend to want affection. Cats take it or leave it. I like the independent nature of the cat, because it suits my lifestyle. Wild cats of course, as in the big nasty ones that live in scotland, tend not to look too pretty.

Also, cats in general share very similar physical attributes, and proportinate abilities with their much larger, wild cousins. A domesticated cat is very much a scaled down vesion of a big cat, regardless of whether its great great great grandparents were bred to lool pretty.





Depends where you draw the line. The caniforms are much more specious than the feliforms (due to their generalist nature) and includes such things seals, mustelids (racoons etc) and BEARS. I think we can draw the line there. Because we're talking about cats and dogs. Not Bears or seals.

The polar bear is the largest land predator on the planet. There is some interesting footage of one hurling a grey wolf twenty feet in the air. Sort of puts things in perspective. Youtube is your friend. ;)


There are some amazing wolf packs in British Columbia iirc that have adapted their hunting behaviours to kill and eat grizzly bears.


Of course they both pale in comparison to wolverines who kill and eat bears by themselves. But again, the wolverine is a caniform...

Hellebore

Which again, pales in comparison to the 'honey badger', touted as the most vicious creature on the planet. *shrugs*

Hellebore
19-12-2008, 02:51
Truly, Google is your friend. ;)


Lol, I was hoping it would be my job but you take what you can get:D



Interstingly, cats are still here, and so are dogs. This is a food chain issue, surely. If there are enough mice for a cats to catch, they will live for as long as however the mice last, as an example. Or rats. My guess is, that will be a very long time.


They are, but in much smaller numbers. Biological success is measured in quantity after all...



I think we can draw the line there. Because we're talking about cats and dogs. Not Bears or seals.


Except that a dog is a very narrow range of animals. "Cats" does not include tigers or lions either.

So if we are to stick to only 'cats' and 'dogs' (as those terms are defined) then we get:

Cats: The Felinae includes Cougars, Cheetahs, Caracal and the Domestic Cat

Tigers and lions are in the Pantherinae (a subfamily of the Felidae)

Dogs: The Canini includes all Wolves, Dingos, and Domesticated Dogs.

The Vulpini includes all foxes. (these are tribes or infrafamilies)

So, Cats are distinct from Felids, which are distinct within Feliforms, just as dogs are distinct from Canids which are distinct within Caniforms.

So like I said, it depends where you draw the line. If you draw the line at 'cat', then you don't get tigers or lions. Pumas are pretty nasty though and in a one on one with a wolf are likely to lose.




Which again, pales in comparison to the 'honey badger', touted as the most vicious creature on the planet. *shrugs*

Which is also a caniform...;)

Hellebore

Eisen
19-12-2008, 02:56
I dont know were you get the idea of russ or the wolves as being the 'Graaar hulk/thore smash ' thing from.

The vikings and the norse had alot more to them , yes they were both war hungry race's but they were not quite as barbaric as you all seem to think.

Yes russ did what the emperor said , he was a good general , and he may have been a tad head strong, but he was no berserker.


Couple points...

1 - Please, define exactly what the difference between "Viking" and "Norse" as you're using them is. Since "Viking" means either "from the bay of Vik" or "to go raiding," I'm unsure how that makes them separate from "Norse."

2 - Did you even read my post? I said I dislike Russ because he plays into the berserker stereotype, not that the berserker stereotype was even remotely valid. Matter of fact, I pretty much said the opposite and cited an example - Harald Haadraade.

3 - If anyone could claim to fit the berserker stereotype, it would be a man who was raised by wolves and whose idea of "negotiation" was a threefold challenge involving eating, drinking, and fighting, and not a step past those three.


As for sanguinius were does all this goth crap come from, he has possible got the most tragic background of them all. He has to watch as his closest friend and brother falls from grace and stes to destroy everything they have fought for. He the has a vision of his death at the hands of said brother, but still he goes to the fight , not to become a martyr , but to save humanity, he goes to fight his best friend , every one knows goths dont have friends.

So you're telling me that the idea that he is a terrible, doomed beauty who must face his friend who has fallen to the mordant, creeping darkness doesn't strike you as the least bit gothy? Funny, sure sounds a lot like the worst aspects of D&D character creation played in a party with at least one goth, to me. "WOE IZ ME, I IZ TEH DOOMED!"

Reflex
19-12-2008, 03:01
lol im gonna flick on animal planet... im behind the 8 ball on this discussion now...

Rockerfella
19-12-2008, 03:06
Lol, I was hoping it would be my job but you take what you can get Wow, you google for a living? Now thats amazing..... ;)




They are, but in much smaller numbers. Biological success is measured in quantity after all... Well, thats not entirely true, is it? I mean, they are few in number becasue they're so much higher on the food chain that a rat, or a mouse. Or are you talking about cats and dogs here? Dogs are surely more numerous( if they are at all) because they're domesticated and we, as pet owners, pamper and look after them?




Except that a dog is a very narrow range of animals. "Cats" does not include tigers or lions either. So when I watch 'big cat diary', that dude is wrong? Ha! Send him an email!


So if we are to stick to only 'cats' and 'dogs' (as those terms are defined) then we get:

Cats: The Felinae includes Cougars, Cheetahs, Caracal and the Domestic Cat

Tigers and lions are in the Pantherinae (a subfamily of the Felidae)

Dogs: The Canini includes all Wolves, Dingos, and Domesticated Dogs.

The Vulpini includes all foxes. (these are tribes or infrafamilies) So it is true... you do google for a living......:);)




So like I said, it depends where you draw the line. If you draw the line at 'cat', then you don't get tigers or lions. Pumas are pretty nasty though and in a one on one with a wolf are likely to lose. Puma being a mountain lion, right? Or... is that a cougar? Check out 'animal face off' with relevant zoologists arguing the toss for their animal. The Mountail lion bowls out the wolf. Take a peek... its great.





Which is also a caniform...;)

Hellebore

Well, that settles that that. Honey Badger FTW!!

Hellebore
19-12-2008, 03:10
Woops, I wrote that the wrong way around. It was supposed to read "Pumas are pretty nasty though and in a one on one with a wolf are likely to win." lol. :o

Us professional Googlians aren't perfect...;) :angel:

Hellebore

genestealer_baldric
19-12-2008, 07:43
i think that you need to compare animals from the same temprate climates like said above, but also depends on what kind of fight e.g in an arena like in rome or out in the wild.

but what would win out a ferris wolf vs caliban lion?:confused:

but if we pitted a normal dog e.g german sheppard vs normal house cat in arena i would say dog every time.

unless it was top cat vs scooby doo then it would be top cat every time. :D

Firaxin
19-12-2008, 07:59
but if we pitted a normal dog e.g german sheppard vs normal house cat in arena i would say dog every time.
Not necessarily. My cat, a striped tabby, has fought and killed coyotes on more than one occassion.

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-12-2008, 07:59
So you're telling me that the idea that he is a terrible, doomed beauty who must face his friend who has fallen to the mordant, creeping darkness doesn't strike you as the least bit gothy? Funny, sure sounds a lot like the worst aspects of D&D character creation played in a party with at least one goth, to me. "WOE IZ ME, I IZ TEH DOOMED!"

I'm almost certain that you need to clarify exactly what Gothic paradigm you are referring to, as the things you have said about Sanguinius don't exactly line up with the Gothic subculture you are referring to. I'm concerned that you might just be using a buzzword as a derogatory term, in which case I might as well say 'jocktard lol' to Russ instead of the long and detailed rant I went into earlier.

Yes, he is a terrible beauty, but that one's been around as long as people have tried to describe angels. As in long, long, long before the modern Gothic subculture came about. It's what Sanguinius is.

Yes, his friend did fall to the mordant, creeping darkness (or otherworldly, freakish, and slavering god-monsters of another realm that truly has no definition of darkness, to be true, but whatever). But that's the tale of the Heresy, and Sanguinius' reaction to it is reasonable considering his motivations and role to his brother.

And I really, really don't think that last line characterizes anything about Sanguinius at all. It sounds a lot more like a blatant placing of words in mouth by someone who skimmed the background and really, really missed the character of the Primarch in question.

Yes, I am a bit of a fanboy for Sanguinius. But that doesn't mean I don't know his faults. He's a blatant combination of two elements in order to try to make them cooler (vampires and angels zomg lol!). He's a bit of a Mary Sue- as the provided quote by Horus shows, he's kind of perfect. And yeah, he might overplay the tragedy a bit. But little to none of that says 'goth,' in the sense you used it, to me.

He plays his part in the story, though, as does Russ. I respect their strengths, both of them, but know how to pick on their real weaknesses, faults, foibles, unfeasible aspects, etc.

EDIT: Oh, and my housecat survived on his own after he ran off into some Alaskan wilderness (where I come from) for nearly a month. This is during the summer, when we have bears, wolves, and *yes* coyotes running around. Don't diss the housecat too much, they're tough little obscenities when they want to be.

genestealer_baldric
19-12-2008, 08:11
well i live in the uk. The worst a cat will meet over he is a disgrunted badger so they dont get all that much in the way of animal combat ;)

i reckon when cats go "misssing" they just stay at someone elses house for a while like a holiday.;)

McPherson
19-12-2008, 17:25
Well Imperialis_Dominatus and Eisen the whole "negative faggy goth" image that surrounds Sanguinius these days comes not from his character but from other literature.

Look around at the number of the "Tragically beautiful Vampire Romances" that have come out in the last 10-15 years, you have your Ann Rice and her Tragically Beautiful Lestat, you have Stephanie Meyers new abomination upon the world Twilight and its sparkly vampires.

The world's perspectives are changing because of these novels, what was once a unique and different thing (an Angelic Vampire fighting for good - Sanguinius) has now become Mudane, trite and quite frankly overdone. Personally I am one of the biggest Sanguinius fanboi's you will ever meet, it was the tragic 2'nd edition story of the Heresy, the fall of Sanguinius and the continued pain the Blood Angels suffer while fighting for the Imperium that brought me into 40k.

As for my 'least favourite' primarch, I woul dhave to say that all the primarchs stories and personalities have grown throughout the years and improved and there isnt any one of them I hate, especially as you stories continue to grow and they become more human and you can understand the reasoning behind many of their actions.

However that aside, the Khan getting on his space bike and flying off to Commoragh is the dumbest piece of fiction I have ever read.

- McPherson

AfroCelt
19-12-2008, 17:50
However that aside, the Khan getting on his space bike and flying off to Commoragh is the dumbest piece of fiction I have ever read.


But oddly it works perfectly for Wazdakka (the Boss is trying to build an interstellar biker highway to ride and fight on forever :) )

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-12-2008, 19:29
Well Imperialis_Dominatus and Eisen the whole "negative faggy goth" image that surrounds Sanguinius these days comes not from his character but from other literature.

Look around at the number of the "Tragically beautiful Vampire Romances" that have come out in the last 10-15 years, you have your Ann Rice and her Tragically Beautiful Lestat, you have Stephanie Meyers new abomination upon the world Twilight and its sparkly vampires.

The world's perspectives are changing because of these novels, what was once a unique and different thing (an Angelic Vampire fighting for good - Sanguinius) has now become Mudane, trite and quite frankly overdone.

Targets acquired.

Eversor Assassin, designation Ann Coulter mk II-V dispatched.

Ave Imperator.

...


sparkly vampires


sparkly vampires


sparkly vampires

Addendum:

Immolate the remains.

Phoebus
19-12-2008, 19:53
I'm in the middle of a road-trip, so I can only offer a couple of points, real quick.

1. Lions as a jungle-dwelling feline? Since when? If a single environment should be assigned to lions, it should be a savannah, or other plain-like environment. There are successful jungle-dwelling felines, but lions are not it.

2. Regarding the whole specialist vs. generalist thing... Wolves, much like lions, have been almost been driven to extinction in certain regions. Should that be held against them where their qualifications as generalists are concerned? There's a reason why there were legends regarding Hercules killing not one, but two lions in ancient Greece. Lions thrived in environments that don't come to mind when we think of them. Similarly, should wolves be thought of less in Europe a thousand years or so from now? They've also become a very rare sight there.

holmcross
20-12-2008, 03:26
Well Imperialis_Dominatus and Eisen the whole "negative faggy goth" image that surrounds Sanguinius these days comes not from his character but from other literature.

Look around at the number of the "Tragically beautiful Vampire Romances" that have come out in the last 10-15 years, you have your Ann Rice and her Tragically Beautiful Lestat, you have Stephanie Meyers new abomination upon the world Twilight and its sparkly vampires.

I've hated those weedy little scamps from the first time I played Castlevania for the NES. Belmonts for lyfe.

Though the literary holocausts the 'infernal duo' released upon humanity has done nothing but compound my hatred for them. Meeting people who played the vampire LARP didn't help, either.

There is one exception to the rule, and thats the 'vampires' from the Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain series. Though they aren't really vampires in the strictest sense, they're aliens.

Sigesti
20-12-2008, 03:37
Angron. Mostly because I find him to be dull.

Koryphaus
20-12-2008, 12:07
Look around at the number of the "Tragically beautiful Vampire Romances" that have come out in the last 10-15 years, you have your Ann Rice and her Tragically Beautiful Lestat, you have Stephanie Meyers new abomination upon the world Twilight and its sparkly vampires.

Ok, so you've given us 2. Huge number I'm looking around at. But don't forget that in those two examples, there are the traditional evil, viewing-people-as-cattle vampires as well as the Louis and the Cullens.

What make it an abomination? The books are international bestsellers, so the author is doing something right. Or do you just dislike on principle what is otherwise highly popular? Actually, I found the sparkly skin to be a breath of fresh air, it made a great change to the usual sunshine=death.


The world's perspectives are changing because of these novels, what was once a unique and different thing (an Angelic Vampire fighting for good - Sanguinius) has now become Mudane, trite and quite frankly overdone.

Here's a radical idea - why not have a story about a Vampire who is pure evil and lives only to hunt humans! We could say that he lives in a big manour house, or maybe even a castle. Oh, and he could turn himself into a bat, or a wolf! Oh, wait..

I don't think that the world's perspective on Vampires is changing because of these stories - if people couldn't associate with the main characters the books/moies wouldn't sell. Dracula works because the main protagonist is are humans, ergo every reader can associate with them in some manner. If Dracula was to be told from the perspective of Dracuala himself, it wouldn't work nearly so well, as we would be seeing ourselves through his eyes - a vision of ourselves which we wouldn't like, and almost certainly wouldn't have been published - possibly even resulting in Bram Stoker recieving similar treatment to Oscar Wilde.

These ideas/versions of Vampires which feature in the Twilight Series and the Vampire Chronicles (good at heart, struggling with their curse etc) just strike more of a chord with young people. Remember that the vast majority of movies are made to appeal to young women (the largest movie going group), hence making what women want = best ticket sales. Even if Stephanie Meyers didn't write the books with younger readers in mind, she has found a massive following, and is now laughing all the way to the bank.

Perhaps also, in this time of darkness - where the only things in the news seem to be violence of some kind in some part of the world, or the problematic world financial situation (not the best of stories to cheer someone up), people are looking for more of a struggle-against-and-overcome-your-nature, defeat the odds, prove your worth, happy ending sort of literature, to take their minds off the world - even if only for a couple of hours. People have changed their entertainment requirements, and the entertainers naturally endeavour to please.

This is much the same as the way 40k depictions have changed over the years, and in fact, it is because of social entertainment demands that GW produces the games it does. To horribly (and I mean it, this generalisation is pretty epic lol) generalise the timeline, originally GW was a few guys who made wooden boardgames in their rented flat. Then they made D&D, and slowly developed Warhammer. Subsequently, Warhammer and its younger brother Warhammer 40000 have become less role-play oriented and instead more focussed around larger games. This is not only a means of generating more income for GW, but is due in large part to the demand from players to be able to play large games relatively quickly.

Also think about how the story has changed over the years, gradually becoming its current grimdarkskulls self. Space Marines have gone from being psychopathic killers to heroic warrior monks. Now they can do anything they please, including killing War-Gods in single combat and devastating Eldar Craftworlds. Chaos has gone from being the Great, Terrible, Secret enemy whom nobody knows about - to being little more than a nuisance, a sidestory.

Sorry for the long post guys, these are just my thoughts, I don't want to seem like I'm having a rant lol.. Maybe I'm just tired.

laudarkul
20-12-2008, 12:53
13 Legion was Caesar elite legion which went with him from Belgium, than Rubicon than conquering the world. 13 legion in 40k is Ultramarines,,,So i never going to hate this legion/Primarch.

Machiavelli
21-12-2008, 13:56
I actually loved the character of Fulgrim, although I agree he was an Epic Fail:D

The one who I hate is Guiliman because of the ultramarines. I just can't stadn them. Thay are like a bunch off teachers for me always praising that book....how pathetic
And they didn't do that great thing for the imperium.

Ubermensch Commander
22-12-2008, 05:52
I've hated those weedy little scamps from the first time I played Castlevania for the NES. Belmonts for lyfe.

Though the literary holocausts the 'infernal duo' released upon humanity has done nothing but compound my hatred for them. Meeting people who played the vampire LARP didn't help, either.

There is one exception to the rule, and thats the 'vampires' from the Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain series. Though they aren't really vampires in the strictest sense, they're aliens.

Yes! The Legacy of Kain Vampires were quite awesome. Particularly those of the Soul Reaver game/era.
Anyway back on topic. Trying the defend Sanguinius as not gothic is a bit difficult as his being a vampiric (Granted that apparently came after his death) angel winged matyr figure somewhat fits the bill. Besides, in fairness, alot of warhammer is gothic. It is one of the themes prevelent in the games background.
The Blood Angels fluff focuses ALOT on Sanguinius death at the hands of Horus and the repercussions of that act. The vampire iconography is ramped up via the COFFINS they use to put the blood into new recruits, the fact that the Sanguinary priests drink blood to keep it going in them, and the Black Rage/Red Thirst which makes them want to drink blood. This whole vampire imagery is then juxtaposed against the oh so noble and beatific Blood Angels who are just really great guys except for their heart wrenching addictions to BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD EMPEROR to create a "tragic image."

Very Goth. Very Vamp-esque.
So since we have little information about Sanguinius pre-heresy except for the latest praise of him in the Horus Heresy novels (who also praised DORN of all Primarchs......*shakes head*) and then the subsequent focus in the codices (2nd and 3rd edition Angels of Death and Blood Angels) on his death at the hands of Horus which Sanguinius willing went to apparently, it creates an imagery that does fit with the prettied up, misunderstood, "woe is me" vampire imagery...although most of that does come from his legacy and his post death Chapter's actions/traits.

Getifa Ubazza
22-12-2008, 06:54
I cant say i hate any of them. Some are a little boring for my taste. Horus for example, seems to have come out of the HH book series looking not quite as interesting as he once did. The same for Mortarian(sp) I would say Leman Russ is my Favourite though.

Lord_Crull
22-12-2008, 18:11
Ok, so you've given us 2. Huge number I'm looking around at. But don't forget that in those two examples, there are the traditional evil, viewing-people-as-cattle vampires as well as the Louis and the Cullens.

What make it an abomination? The books are international bestsellers, so the author is doing something right. Or do you just dislike on principle what is otherwise highly popular? Actually, I found the sparkly skin to be a breath of fresh air, it made a great change to the usual sunshine=death.



Here's a radical idea - why not have a story about a Vampire who is pure evil and lives only to hunt humans! We could say that he lives in a big manour house, or maybe even a castle. Oh, and he could turn himself into a bat, or a wolf! Oh, wait..

I don't think that the world's perspective on Vampires is changing because of these stories - if people couldn't associate with the main characters the books/moies wouldn't sell. Dracula works because the main protagonist is are humans, ergo every reader can associate with them in some manner. If Dracula was to be told from the perspective of Dracuala himself, it wouldn't work nearly so well, as we would be seeing ourselves through his eyes - a vision of ourselves which we wouldn't like, and almost certainly wouldn't have been published - possibly even resulting in Bram Stoker recieving similar treatment to Oscar Wilde.

These ideas/versions of Vampires which feature in the Twilight Series and the Vampire Chronicles (good at heart, struggling with their curse etc) just strike more of a chord with young people. Remember that the vast majority of movies are made to appeal to young women (the largest movie going group), hence making what women want = best ticket sales. Even if Stephanie Meyers didn't write the books with younger readers in mind, she has found a massive following, and is now laughing all the way to the bank.



I hate the sparkly good vamps that Meyer and Rice write. I would love to read a book told from Dracula's viewpoint. Absolutly love it. I prefer evil castle-living, bat-changing vampires any day over the homosexual goth vampires.

The people who bought and read Twilight and Anne Rice were pathetic teenage goth fangirls who need to get a life.


But oddly it works perfectly for Wazdakka (the Boss is trying to build an interstellar biker highway to ride and fight on forever :) )

It's because he's an ork.

cicero
22-12-2008, 18:42
13 Legion was Caesar elite legion which went with him from Belgium, than Rubicon than conquering the world. 13 legion in 40k is Ultramarines,,,So i never going to hate this legion/Primarch.

haha that is why i play dark angels.....the first legion was pompey's hammer legion and the last defenders of the republic of rome.incidentally i always thought that ceasar favoured his tenth legion but i have been wrong before.On the subject of primarchs

I always have found that alpharius seems to be a pussy.that guy in legion wounds him and then guilliman bitch slapped him.

Being a DA fan i feel like i should defend the lion.I think that luther was sent back because he will never be as quick or strong as a regular marine and gave luther the position that pre-emperor luther always wanted.maybe lion tried to help luther by him not being embarassed by the previous novices.the fallen might have been corrupted by Chaos,afterall Caliban was tainted by chaos anyway so in the heresy i imagine the gods tried harder than usual.Anyway i'm sure someone better informed ill be ready to tell me im wrong :)

isidril93
22-12-2008, 19:03
guilliman
that smurf thinks hes sooo great, chickening out of a fight with horus then commanding (yes commanding!!!) Rogal Dorn to obey his coex aastartes which he made and by his word forced all other SM to obey him. thats the type of guy i hate.

McPherson
22-12-2008, 19:34
@ Koryphaus :

Your right I only gave two specific (And very mainstream) examples - mostly because I didnt really think I needed to give anything more than that - most people got the joke :D

However you are right, Dracula as told from his viewpoint would be a much more sympathetic story, but still nowhere near the kind of drivel Sparkly vampires are (Yes I realise that Meyers is rolling in the money from her popular teenage fangirl phenomenon, as they say, even a broken watch is right twice a day) And yes again they have the more traditional human are cattle monster-esque vampires in her books as antagonists, but thats the whole point - vampires have gone from their traditional villan roles (Dracula) to heroic roles(modern drivel vampires). They've done it so fast and so much they've over-saturated the market and people are sitting there thinking "Jesus christ more of this? Really?"

You can also blame other sources than Rice/Meyers, but they get the point across pretty well :D

That aside Wazdakka's intergalactic highway is acceptable because he's an ork, The Khan's flying space bike is not because, well, its just silly :P And yes I realise thats hypocritical considering but still.

- McPherson

Koryphaus
22-12-2008, 22:22
The people who bought and read Twilight and Anne Rice were pathetic teenage goth fangirls who need to get a life.

Well I went to see the movie with my girlfriend and thought it was excellent. And I have one of the books, and want the other 3 for christmas.

Does that make me a pathetic teenage goth fangirl?

Lord_Crull
22-12-2008, 23:21
Well I went to see the movie with my girlfriend and thought it was excellent. And I have one of the books, and want the other 3 for christmas.

Does that make me a pathetic teenage goth fangirl?

No, but it proves you have really sh**y taste.

Did your girlfriend make you do?

Again in my area all of the local goths are devouring it. I bet my left arm and my entire collection of warhammmer minatures that 90% of the people who buy the books are teenage goth fangirls.

The entire series is basicly about how pretty and perect the vampires are, in paticular.

I tried to read the first book. Key word being tried. I though C.S goto was bad but.....

Koryphaus
22-12-2008, 23:52
Why do they have to be Goths?

How does it prove that I have bad taste? Simply because you and I have different interests doesn't mean that either of us have to be wrong.

I don't have bad taste, I have a copy of Dracula sitting on my shelf right now, alongside The Portrait of Dorian Gray and Gulliver's Travels, which are also sitting next to the Children of Hurin and the Silmarilion. And Diskworld just for good measure lol..

Perhaps I'm just more open-minded than you are.

And no, she didn't make me go and watch it, we really wanted to go and see Madagascar 2, but it was sold out lol, so we went and watched Twilight instead.

This thread is awesome, it began as an honest thread where people could chat about which primarch they hated the most, then it became about whether big cats or big dogs are better, now its a discussion about the Vampires in Twilight and Dracula lol..

Where will it go next? Probably get closed for being off-topic and end up in the wastes..

Lord_Crull
23-12-2008, 00:10
Then let's stop now and get back on topic. Just forget the last few posts ever happened.

Favourite primarchs.

Horus
Angron
Kurze
Fulgrim

I like chaos.

Rockerfella
23-12-2008, 01:08
Does that make me a pathetic teenage goth fangirl?

No, of course it dosen't. The Anne Rice books are interesting because for me, they gave a different take on the Vampire than had been explored before.

Memnoch the Devil, for example, asks many interesting questions, and simply has nothing to do with 'Goth' or 'emo' culture what so ever. In fact, its more biblical in nature, and although I read it many years ago, it certainly made me think about the bible in a differen't way. Which is great, isn't it?

Emo? No. Goth? Erm.... well... maybe a little. But still.... great books. :)

Lord_Crull
23-12-2008, 01:23
What did I just say? Let's get back on topic.

Rockerfella
23-12-2008, 01:35
What did I just say? Let's get back on topic.


Oh, sorry! forgive me! I forgot for a brief moment there, that you are the thread boss! ;)

Back on topic.

I don't hate any of them.

Is that ok, boss??

Lord_Crull
23-12-2008, 02:14
Oh, sorry! forgive me! I forgot for a brief moment there, that you are the thread boss! ;)

Back on topic.

I don't hate any of them.

Is that ok, boss??

Not funny, I am making an effort to follow the rules now, you should too.

Ubermensch Commander
23-12-2008, 05:20
Ok some people do not like pretty pretty dress up sparkly Vampires. Some do. Moving on, yes?

So Sanguinius, covered. Why some like, some dont.

Rather surprised no one has come out and said that Horus turning on the Emperor annoyed them. I mean, Dad tells him to hold down the fort...and then one little life/death incident and he thinks "Let's turn on the guy who saved my life and whose life I have saved and I have known for centuries!"

Although I like the character of Horus, I understand how some would roll their eyes at his fall.

jmcg1989
23-12-2008, 19:01
im not particularly fond of ferrus manus
dont think he has much of a backstory

"check me i have metal hands"
*enter fulgrim*
"oh no, now im dead"



my personal fav primarch has to be konrad curze,
purelky cause of the whole tormented foresight thing
such a shame that the night lords are a really sucky chapter

Inquisitor Engel
23-12-2008, 20:19
my personal fav primarch has to be konrad curze,
purelky cause of the whole tormented foresight thing
such a shame that the night lords are a really sucky chapter

I was surprised, reading 'The Dark King' that he apparently has serious telepathy ability as well, creating a localized blackout aboard the Phalanx and destroying lights, pipes and causing all kinds of havoc, essentially with little more than an angry scream.

At the end of 'Fulgrim,' he's said to have shadows "floating" around him, which makes me think he has much more to him than simply "Batman goes Colonel Kurtz.... in Space."



Also, I didn't find 'Fulgrim' nearly as good as everyone talks about Ostian and d'Angelus are essentially pointless, giving us nothing like contrast (Ostian disappears for half the book, shows up, dies) or conviction and change like Sindermann, Oliton and obviously very different than Keeler. They held nothing for me.

Lord Commander Vespasian, could have been awesome and put up a fight, or we could have at least seen his perspective, instead he shows up 2/3 through, says "I don't like what's going on here..." and gets a knife in the throat.

I DID enjoy Solomon Demeter's story, but Fulgrim's? Ferrus'? Not really. I much preferred 'Galaxy in Flames' or 'False Gods.'

Fire Harte
23-12-2008, 20:35
I hate that cissy sanguinus as well as Lemon Wuss of the Space Pups. :p

Da Black Gobbo
23-12-2008, 20:47
I hate Roboute Guilliman, because i hate Ultramarines, nothing else to say.

ungulateman
23-12-2008, 22:55
I hate Vulkan.

"I'm going to come back after you run these errands for me. Just pick up these 7 really valuable pieces of **** on the way back."

bossy boots....

jk

Fire Harte
23-12-2008, 23:01
That's a very hate filled opinion you have there...

I LIKE IT!! :evilgrin: