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EvC
16-12-2008, 20:14
Just wondering, there's situations where the magic propoerties of a weapon can be negated, for example Obsidian Armour or the High Elf Talisman of Saphery. In those cases, could a model opt to use a mundane weapon instead of his useless magic weapon?

For example a Vampire with Dread Knight (Gives him a Lance) and the Sword of Might charges into a High Elf unit with a character with that Talisman of Saphery. Can he then opt to use his lance, and therefore fight at S7 for that round?

Condottiere
16-12-2008, 20:40
Outside that rule for Bretonnian lances, I'm not aware of any other exception. If you have a magic weapon, you have to use it, exclusively. Though there's another exception if the description allows an additional hand weapon.

Nurgling Chieftain
16-12-2008, 21:03
If you have a magic weapon, you have to use it, exclusively.Right, but what if it's no longer magic?

nosferatu1001
16-12-2008, 21:13
It's a magic weapon that no longer [i]counts as[/] being magical, so you would still have to use it as it is still a magic weapon. Just useless...

additionally you would need to have selected your weapon before the magic item was revealed, meaning you would be stuck with your magic weapon in any case ;)

Nurgling Chieftain
16-12-2008, 22:22
It's a magic weapon that no longer [i]counts as[/] being magical, so you would still have to use it as it is still a magic weapon.So, your position is that a magic weapon that isn't magic is still a magic weapon? :cool:

Gazak Blacktoof
17-12-2008, 00:20
Very silly indeed which is why I take the opposing view:

If the weapon is no longer magical you can't be forced to use it as you no longer have a magical weapon.

Jerrus
17-12-2008, 00:54
If it has been permanently destroyed (Vaul's Unmaking for example) then you should be allowed to use others.

Otherwise I would say stick to using magic weapons even though they've been temporarily disabled to avoid anomalies. For example, what happens if the item causing the weapon to be disabled no longer affects it while still in combat, would a "in-combat weapon swap" be forced?

logan054
17-12-2008, 01:01
I think it goes something like you declare what weapon you are using in the first turn of combat, when you go to striking blow your magical weapon has simply lost its powers/rules, you cannot change what weapon you are using until you start a fresh combat.

End result, you have to use the magical weapon to find out its powers are negated.

Necromancy Black
17-12-2008, 01:15
what's the exact wording? Thinking of something like Lord Kroak, his rules says that magic weapons used against him count as hand weapons. It's kind of a catch 42.

If you use the magic weapon against him it's a mundane weapon, so you should be allowed to choose a different mundane weapon, like a lance. But if you use the lance then you magic weapon actually still counts as a magic weapon, and by the rules you have to use it.

I would say in this particular case you would have to use the magic weapon, as not doing so means your vialating the rule in the BRB that you must use magic weapons. Once used it become mundane, but you've already chosen to use it and must stick with it. It's the only way that doesn't break a rule.

I'm not familiar with the wording of other items like Obsidian Armour. If it's like Kroaks and they only affect magic weapons being used it's the same situation. It, however, it makes all magic weapons on a model in base to base lose their abilities or something like that, I'd say yes, you can use a different mundane weapon.

sulla
17-12-2008, 01:17
For example a Vampire with Dread Knight (Gives him a Lance) and the Sword of Might charges into a High Elf unit with a character with that Talisman of Saphery. Can he then opt to use his lance, and therefore fight at S7 for that round?Wouldn't you only discover the talisman as you swung your sword of might and realised the battleries were flat? If so, you couldn't swap to your lance that phase (or the rest of that combat).

After all, it's not the elf player's duty to help you out by warning you about the item till a time of his choosing.

logan054
17-12-2008, 01:24
why should you be allowed to use a different weapon? you automatically have to choose you magical weapon, i dont think his rule should be treated any different than say a chaos runeshield, i wouldnt think that you magical weapon stops glowing and your like "what, my magical weapon stopped working, glad i brought that trust great weapon!!"

I also think its abit weird with a lance (not so much rules wise) because you would have to draw it before you charged not once you charge head first into the enemy and quickly make a swap.

The key thing here is you have to use your magical weapon, you have to choose your weapon at the start or combat otherwise you would have silly things (say with a chaos hero and chaos runeshield)

"oh you have a chaos runeshield im going to use my lance"
"oh well then im going to use my great weapon then"
"ok ok i'll use my mega death magical weapon then"
"oh well i'll use my chaos runeshield then"
"wait no i'll use the lance then"..

Yeah, thats a great way to play warhammer, a endless circle of changing weapons, good one :rolleyes:

Nurgling Chieftain
17-12-2008, 03:48
After all, it's not the elf player's duty to help you out by warning you about the item till a time of his choosing.Look, there's plenty of ways that that information could have come out before that particular combat was joined.


...a endless circle of changing weapons...That particular issue is much more likely to come up with sets of entirely non-magical weapons anyway.

GodlessM
17-12-2008, 05:06
It doesn't matter whether it counts as magical or not as a model cannot have both a mundane and a magical weapon.

Necromancy Black
17-12-2008, 05:12
All models come with a mundane hand weapon. Also, where are you getting the rule that I can't choose both magic and mundane weapons?

Condottiere
17-12-2008, 05:33
If you have the option, you can carry an arsenal of mundane weapons. It's just that Magic Weapon has priority, and you'd be wasting points.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-12-2008, 05:51
So, your position is that a magic weapon that isn't magic is still a magic weapon? :cool:

A magic weapon whose magic effects are negated is clearly still a magic weapon. A force negated by a stronger opposing force is still a force. After all, a weapon whose puny strength cannot wound a high-T model is still a weapon. Right?

Necronartum
17-12-2008, 09:10
I'd have to agree with Solar.

A magic weapon that has its weapons magical properties negated in that combat still counts as a magical weapon. Albeit...useless. Its effects are simply useless against the character/model you are attacking.

The rules clearly state that a model carrying a magical weapon must always opt to use it in place of a mundane one.

Therefore, I think the issue is more surrounding whether your opponent would be nice enough to allow you to swap weapons. I can see the arguments both ways. I think it 90% of cases however it would be a moot point, considering that most models carrying magical weapons only have normal hand weapons and therefore changing to this from a magical hand weapon that no longer has any effects provides no advantage. The only instance would be the aforementioned lance/magical weapon scenario, in which I would not allow my opponent to swap under any circumstances. After all, I paid X points for an item to stop them beating my character and am not going to reveal it before hes attacks.

Lordmonkey
17-12-2008, 10:33
There's arguments for both sides in terms of context:

"My weapon's magical effects are nullified, so I switch to my lance"

or

"I swing with my magic weapon and, oh look, it doesn't sparkle anymore. Too late."

A magic weapon is still a magic weapon if it's effects have been nullified. I would imagine that each case of nullification would specify what would happen to the magic weapon. If the effect says "counts as a mundane version of that weapon for all intents and purposes" then it is no longer a magic weapon, for all intents and purposes, ergo your character is no longer obliged to use it.
If however it simply says "does not benefit from any additional effects" then it would still be a magic weapon that grants no benefit, and therefore, your character must always use it.

Necromancy Black
17-12-2008, 10:50
But once again that come with the problem that if using the magic weapon would mean "It counts as a mundane weapon", then switching anotehr mundane weapon (like a lance) would mean that the said magic weapon isn't being affected and still counts as a magic weapon. That means you've violated the rule that you must always use a magic weapon over a mundane one.

The only way to not violate this rule is to use the magic weapon and have it then become a mundane one for the purpose of the rules. At this point you've chosen your weapon and can't change, but this way you have not violated any rule in the rule book.

That's the only way to handle this situation without breaking the rule, otherwise you've got a perfectly good working magic weapon your not using.

As I said before, this only happens if the item that removes the magic affects only works when the bearer is attacked by a magic weapon. If an item said something like the following:

Tom's Helm of Utter 'BS'
"Enemy models in base to base contact of the model wearing this helm count all their magical weapons as a mundane version of that weapon for all purposes."

This clearly states that being in base to base contact causes the magic weapons to be mundane, at which point, yes, I'd argue they can choose any mundane weapon and not the affected magical weapon. But something like:

John's Shield of Defending
"All enemy magical weapons attacking the bearer of this sheild are treated as mundane versions of the same weapon for all purposes."

Is only triggered when a magic weapon is used. If you don't use a magic weapon (when you do have one) you violate the rule in the BRB as your not attacking with it. Attacking with it violates no rule.

I think I've repeated myself too much then...

DeathlessDraich
17-12-2008, 11:51
Good question.


Wouldn't you only discover the talisman as you swung your sword of might and realised the battleries were flat? If so, you couldn't swap to your lance that phase (or the rest of that combat).

After all, it's not the elf player's duty to help you out by warning you about the item till a time of his choosing.

It depends on the exact wording - like all magic items.


Just wondering, there's situations where the magic propoerties of a weapon can be negated, for example Obsidian Armour or the High Elf Talisman of Saphery. In those cases, could a model opt to use a mundane weapon instead of his useless magic weapon?



I think it goes something like you declare what weapon you are using in the first turn of combat, when you go to striking blow your magical weapon has simply lost its powers/rules, you cannot change what weapon you are using until you start a fresh combat.

End result, you have to use the magical weapon to find out its powers are negated.

Yes, that is crucial to finding a solution.

T. Saphery and Obsidian armour both state "whilst in base contact"

Base contact is established immediately after charges are successfully resolved.
Therefore the effects of Obsidian and Saphery are enforced from Compulsory moves onwards and when it is time to choose weapons for combat, only mundane weapons are available.

i.e. The character affected by Obsidian etc may choose his mundane weapon or 'mundanised' previously magical weapon

Brets Morning star, Law of Gold, Vaul's Unmaking and Ring are easier to resolve.

There is 1 more similar magic item I think?

EvC
17-12-2008, 12:08
Chaos Runeshield; also Lord Kroak's got a similar ability.

So basically, if in contact with a model with Obsidian Armour/ Talisman of Saphery and you know about it to begin with, then you could choose to use a mundane weapon. However you better hope that if you stop being in base contact with that one model then the combat is over, as otherwise the game will crash owing to the weapon becoming magic again and your not using the magic weapon when in combat ;)

DeathlessDraich
17-12-2008, 12:40
Yes, I see another possible problem.
The player with Obsidian etc may not have declared it yet. but since it is conventionally accepted that magic items are declared as soon as they take effect, maybe the player should declare he has Obsidian etc immediately after the bearer makes contact with the enemy

Gazak Blacktoof
17-12-2008, 12:44
It not really a problem is it. If your weapon is mundane you can choose any weapon, if its still magical you must use it. Regardless of inital choice you must continue to use that weapon for the duration of the combat unless it is actually destroyed.

EvC
17-12-2008, 12:59
Gazak, the problem is precisely what you just wrote down. If the magic weapon is rendered mundane you can choose a lance or whatever, but then if the obsidian dude dies but the combat continues then you must both keep using your original weapon choice but at the same time you must use the magic weapon. Like if a model makes himself unbreakable, he could then join an unbreakable unit, but GW say that players should never do that in case the character stops being unbreakable, and the universe implodes ;)


Yes, I see another possible problem.
The player with Obsidian etc may not have declared it yet. but since it is conventionally accepted that magic items are declared as soon as they take effect, maybe the player should declare he has Obsidian etc immediately after the bearer makes contact with the enemy

Hence why I stated "and you know about it to begin with" as a condition for being able to do this ;)

Gazak Blacktoof
17-12-2008, 13:11
Yes there's a compulsion to use the magic weapon, however you can only do so if you can use it. You can't swap weapons unless you're a bretonnian.

I never see the problem in situations like this, which I think are neatly resolved by the timing of the effects, whilst everybody else gets bent out of shape about them.

DeathlessDraich
17-12-2008, 13:15
Just to clarify:
(A) has Obsidian armour in base contact with
Case i) Tomb Guard - magic weapons. No difference there
Case ii) Character (B) with a magic weapon.
Case iii) Plague Censers

Case ii) (B) strikes first and uses a (chosen) mundane weapon as required by Obsidian. (A) is slain - no problems
(B)'s accompanying unit strikes first and (B) has to strike last with a mundane great weapon, already chosen. (A) is slain.
(B) now has a magic weapon but has chosen a mundane weapon for combat!

Can he switch over to the magic weapon i.e. overriding his previous weapon choice?

This rule is the closest I can think of to allow him to switch to the magic weapon -

"In case of contradiction, the special rule of a magic item takes precedence"
- this *assumes* the rule, that "magic weapon must always be used" is also a 'special rule of a magic item'.


Case (iii) Plague Censers - just too complicated to think about - Roll a dice:p

Havock
17-12-2008, 14:07
I wish I could.
Then I -could- take a chaos lord with flaming sword of doom and rip and tear dragon princes apart with his bare hands should he come up against that :p

Lord Zarkov
17-12-2008, 14:12
Plague Censer's not a problem as there's two separate rules - one that describes the mundane item, and one late that makes the gas and the flail attack count as magical.

Henec if they are made into a mundane version warpstone weapons is simply ignored and the go back to being a mundane Palgue Censer.

logan054
17-12-2008, 14:44
All models come with a mundane hand weapon. Also, where are you getting the rule that I can't choose both magic and mundane weapons?

because you have to choose the magical weapon in the first place in order to be effected by item that negates the magical weapon. I can sum this up, just seems like people are trying to find away around yet another magical item, i dont think i have every seen a item that effects combat in the movement phase, its always been in the combat phase.

At the end of the day why would i declare i had a chaos runeshield if your using a lance or great weapon, it has no effect on the combat (*cough* cured book evc *cough*)

The thing to remember is that it dosnt turn the magical weapon into a mundane weapon, this is something just said simplicity, it is just treated as one, it is still a magical weapon.

EvC
17-12-2008, 15:52
The Chaos Runeshield is a different matter though, you'd not get a chance to select a mundane weapon before the Runeshield takes effect, so you'd always be stuck with the non-magic magic weapon :D

logan054
17-12-2008, 16:05
well i wouldnt think it is actually because one would thin you would always have the runeshield selected until you decided to use a great weapon because you gain the advantage of a save against shooting :p

Gazak Blacktoof
17-12-2008, 16:11
As far as I know you don't have to be using the rune shield to actually benefit from its magical effect (questionable). You could be swinging a great weapon and have it slung across your back, it would still negate enemy magical weapons. Whether that makes sense to you thematically probably depends on whether you think of it as having some sort of dampening field or not.

orkz222
17-12-2008, 16:16
For example a Vampire with Dread Knight (Gives him a Lance) and the Sword of Might charges into a High Elf unit with a character with that Talisman of Saphery.

Can he then opt to use his lance, and therefore fight at S7 for that round?



you would need to have selected your weapon before the magic item was revealed, meaning you would be stuck with your magic weapon in any case ;)

Nope, stuck with the sword of might during the combat without the effect.

logan054
17-12-2008, 16:20
i would think you have to actually use the shield to use its rules, and no i dont think it has a dampening field, this is warhammer not 40k :p

Gazak Blacktoof
17-12-2008, 16:40
It could be some sort of magical sponge, sponges are damp...

logan054
17-12-2008, 17:25
why not just call it a chaos runesponge then :p

Harwammer
17-12-2008, 18:00
I think it is a player set presedent that a character must be using his shield to get any magic benefits from it. I've talked to people about this before, most people assume this is the correct way as a 'common sense' rule.

Condottiere
17-12-2008, 18:22
Actively using the shield makes sense. You'd have to have hand weapon, lance, spear, morningstar or pistol in the other hand.

Nurgling Chieftain
17-12-2008, 20:33
Okay... So you reach combat against someone with the Talisman of Saphery. At the moment you reach B2B, the Talisman takes effect, and your magical weapon counts as non-magical. Then, in HtH, you've got a non-magical weapon and a magical weapon that counts as non-magical. At that point, you can choose either, since neither one counts as a magical weapon.

logan054
17-12-2008, 20:56
I see nothing in the rule book that says i would declare magic items that affect combat until the combat phase, just as i wouldnt declare a banner that only works in the magic phase on models in B2B until the magic phase. Why is that people seem to think you can just bypass people using magic items, if i have paid 50pts for a item that negates a magical weapon why should you just be allowed to use a great weapon or lance instead?

i mean what happens

"oh that shields to be glowing abit much, better take out my great weapon rather than my swanky death sword"

Its also not as if they stand around looking at each waiting for the combat phase

"no wait a minute, hes still casting magic, no wait a minute hes got to shoot his gun, ok now boys we can fight hand hand, go!!"

please, seems abit daft dosnt it, the moment he enters combat hes going to have the weapon out hes using

Necromancy Black
17-12-2008, 22:22
@logan054
The point Nurgling Chieften is trying to amke (I think?) is that items like Talisman of Saphery would take affect before you choose a magic weapon, and the player with the Talisman would have to reveil the item is taking affect before your unit chose what weapons to use in close combat.

You argue that being made as a mundane weapon, a magic weapon is still a magic weapon. But if something says "treat as a mundane weapon", "counts as a mundane weapon" or "act as a mundane weapon for all purposes" then I will, and also let any oppanant I play, treat/count/act for all purposes their magic weapon as a mundane weapon for the entirety of the rules that follow mundane weapons.

This means they can choose another mundane weapon in this situation.

I will also argue the following:
A) The may only choose which weapon to fight with at the start of combat. If whatever is making the magic wapon mundane is removed/destroied, you are not allowed to switch to the magic weapon until a time arises that you would be allowed to choose another weapon normally (basically, a new combat).

B) Any item that changes a magic weapon to a mundane weapon that requires the magic weapon to actually attack them, may not be swapped for another mundane weapon. This is because the weapon is still magical at the time you decide what weapon to use, unlike the Talismen which takes affect before. Lord Kroak is an example of this, as Magic weapons have to be used against him before his Ceremonial Mace of Malachite takes affect.

Nurgling Chieftain
17-12-2008, 22:28
I see nothing in the rule book that says i would declare magic items that affect combat until the combat phase...You declare items when they take effect. This item takes effect on base contact.


Why is that people seem to think you can just bypass people using magic items...That's just not true. Quite the contrary; you're the one claiming the magic item doesn't work as advertised.


...if i have paid 50pts for a item that negates a magical weapon why should you just be allowed to use a great weapon or lance instead?Precisely because your item negates a magic weapon rather than negating mundane weapons. If the character didn't have a magic weapon in the first place, they'd still be able to use their great weapon or lance, why should having a magic weapon make your item even more powerful than it would be otherwise?

Defender of Ulthuan
17-12-2008, 22:46
While it is a silly rule to be forced to use a magic weapon (stopping you from using a magic GW and switching to a shield instead, when any ***** knows it would be the better choice, for example), the rules are the rules; if you have a magic weapon, you must use it.

In the case of Obsidian Armour, etc., the item is still the same, it simply has no effect on the BT (for example).

When a magic item is destroyed, or made unusable for the rest of the game (which is really the same thing, ie: Vaul's Unmaking), it then ceases to be magic, and is treated as a normal weapon of its type (meaning you can switch between weapons freely) or destroyed completely (meaning you can't use it, even if you wanted to) in accordance with the spell/item description.

Defender

Draconian77
17-12-2008, 22:53
I would agree with Nurgling Chieftens interpretation, as soon as a Magic Weapon is negated you are free to choose a non-magical(as in, any...) weapon you want.

However I would also say that if you kill the model thats negating or the spell that negated your item ceases to be in effect you are stuck using your mundane weapon.

logan054
17-12-2008, 22:54
You declare items when they take effect. This item takes effect on base contact.

but why does a item that affect combat take affect in the movement phase? the movement phase has nothing to do with combat, again how is this any different from say the festering shroud? Im yet to see anything in the magic item section that suggests i would declare a chaos runeshield (or similar item) before you declare what weapon your using.

[quoe]That's just not true. Quite the contrary; you're the one claiming the magic item doesn't work as advertised.[/quote]

Must have missed this advertisment, and no, actually im claiming you cant work your away around a 50pts weapon ;)


Precisely because your item negates a magic weapon rather than negating mundane weapons. If the character didn't have a magic weapon in the first place, they'd still be able to use their great weapon or lance, why should having a magic weapon make your item even more powerful than it would be otherwise?

Yeah sure if he didnt have one in the first place he sure could use a different weapon, thing is in this case he does have a magical weapon and your suggesting he would know instantly know he was facing someone who could negate his weapon. I think their is a point when you have to stand back and say "you know, i think im trying to bend the rules here abit"

Necromancy Black
17-12-2008, 23:54
but why does a item that affect combat take affect in the movement phase?

Because the rules say any model in "base to base". If that's the only condition of the item, then the item is triggered when that condition is met. So if you issue a challange, moved the models to base to base, it would then take affect. And then you would choose the weapon your using (if it's the first round of combat). Even simplier, you make contact from the charge, meeting the criteria of the item to take affect.

Your saying a magic weapon doesn't stop being a magic weapon due to these items. I say that's picking at the rules, when the rules say the weapon has to be treated as a mundane weapon. To me, this means I have to follow all the rules of mundane weapons, and that allows me to use a different mundane weapon if I have one.

All this comes down to the individual wording of each rule, but for items like the Talisman, I say they can use a different mundane weapon, which they are then stuck with for duration of that combat.

Nurgling Chieftain
18-12-2008, 00:37
I think their is a point when you have to stand back and say "you know, i think im trying to bend the rules here abit"Yes, and I think you should step back and say precisely that. You want a weapon to be simultaneously magic and not magic, picking and choosing rules from each category as suits you. You have long since ceased to have any rules-based argument at all, and your other arguments don't add up anyway.

logan054
18-12-2008, 00:50
I still havent seen anything to suggest revealing rules relevant to the combat or magic phase in the movement nor have i ever played anyone who tried to play it this way. Frankly the way you suggest the rules works makes the items even worse than they are all ready is.


So in order to use a 50pts items effectively you suggest that

1) that im base to base with a magic weapon ( well yes we know)
2) that they dont just pull out a great weapon/lance or whatever

Sounds like a very good defensive item to me, hell makes sense its more points than a wardsave dosnt it

So obviously im picking the rules to my advantage


Yes, and I think you should step back and say precisely that. You want a weapon to be simultaneously magic and not magic, picking and choosing rules from each category as suits you. You have long since ceased to have any rules-based argument at all, and your other arguments don't add up anyway.

obviously im trying to do that rather than saying "well its ok if you take that item i can just swap my magic weapon for X weapon" which then just makes the item pointless, and item which will cost more than a wardsave ;)

Nurgling Chieftain
18-12-2008, 01:07
I still havent seen anything to suggest revealing rules relevant to the combat or magic phase in the movement...Then you're not paying the slightest bit of attention. There's nowhere you can go with this argument; the item is quite relevant precisely at the moment we're discussing, and therefore must be revealed then, or before then. Revealing it afterwards would be nothing short of cheating, the equivalent of withholding an item which makes the bearer stupid until it's beneficial.


Frankly the way you suggest the rules works makes the items even worse than they are all ready is.That's not even a consideration to me. If I have to re-write the rules to make every item in every codex useful, we're going to be pretty busy, frankly. The Talisman of Saphery is traditionally used in combination with the item which makes the bearer immune to non-magical attacks, and frankly, which non-magical weapon your opponent uses in that case is completely and totally irrelevant.


that they dont just pull out a great weapon/lance or whateverY'know, I see very few character builds that carry a mundane weapon upgrade just in case their primary weapon gets destroyed somehow. I doubt this is going to come up much.


So obviously im picking the rules to my advantageObviously you are. Your whole post right here is nothing short of a blatant admission that you're trying to twist the rules to make the item better than it is, because while the rest of us have been talking about rules all you can think of to talk about is whether the item is good enough.


obviously im trying to do that rather than saying "well its ok if you take that item i can just swap my magic weapon for X weapon" which then just makes the item pointless, and item which will cost more than a wardsaveSee, when you make this sort of argument, you're effectively admitting that all you're doing is trying to make the item better, regardless of what the rules actually say.

Nonetheless, the argument that the ability to switch to a different mundane weapon makes the item irrelevant is totally incorrect. If a mundane weapon were as good as the negated magic weapon, the model would have absolutely no reason to have purchased the magic weapon. It's just an absurd argument on the face of it.

...Okay, I think at this point that by responding I'm just giving logan054's posts more legitimacy than they deserve. He hasn't come up with anything new, so unless I see a novel argument, I'm done here.

logan054
18-12-2008, 01:48
Tell you what mate, you show me were it says you declare magic items such as this in the movement phase rather than the combat phase and i will accept i have simply missed something, i have been looking through the book i cant see it written in any place.

Necromancy Black
18-12-2008, 02:00
I don't care when you declare it. You prove to me that the effect of the magic item does not occure the moment the model is in base to base contact.

If that affect comes into play before I have to chose the weapon I use in close combat, then my magic weapons will count as mundane weapons. And if it it counts as a mundane weapon when I go to choose a weapon, I will follow the rules for mundane weapons and choose whichever one I wish.

Mireadur
18-12-2008, 03:10
I think Logan54 is right on this one. His arguments got me on his side.

Condottiere
18-12-2008, 03:28
I have to admit I'm lost.

If a magic item neutralizes the "magickness" of a weapon when in btb contact, it only has to be revealed when it becomes relevant, when that magic weapon is trying to score a hit.

If it renders the weapon mundane, this fact usually only becomes relevant after the wielder declares attacks (to his great surprise).

Nurgling Chieftain
18-12-2008, 03:45
First off, I think way too much weight is being put on the discovery aspect; there's plenty of ways in which it might become known long before any models reach contact.

That being said, I think the "relevance" standard includes weapon choice, anyway.

TheDarkDaff
18-12-2008, 05:52
I have to say i was agreeing with Logan's arguement until he started saying the the Movement Phase has nothing to do with the Combat Phase (i kept thinking what about charges?).

Anyway i would say to avoid the messy situation of still being locked in combat and the Magic Weapon being "turned back on" so it must be used you should just stick to using the Magic Weapon. The only time you will see it anyway is when a Charcter has Shield and a Magic Weapon (be it Great weapon, Spear, etc.) and want to get the Hand Weapon and Shield Bonus (which is the dumbest rule ever) or if you are fighting a Black Orc that is "armed to da teef". Is getting +1 AS really worth the hassle?

AMWOOD co
18-12-2008, 09:55
I have to admit I'm lost.

If a magic item neutralizes the "magickness" of a weapon when in btb contact, it only has to be revealed when it becomes relevant, when that magic weapon is trying to score a hit.

If it renders the weapon mundane, this fact usually only becomes relevant after the wielder declares attacks (to his great surprise).

Here, here. This is how my group has always played items of this sort. Otherwise, my opponent can ask me "Do you have that stupid nullifying item?" before the issue of him having a magic weapon has come up. The issue I see is the opponent coming into contact, magic sword at the ready, just to feel no magic when he actually swings. Then he would clue in to the Talisman of Saphery being present. If he already knows it's there (some other poor shmuck met it first or a scry of somekind revealed it) then he would have options.

As for the Obsidion Amulet, I would hold it the same as any other magic item. You don't actually know it's there until something is denied. An expected presence isn't felt or an ability doesn't trigger when wanted. This will likely be in the enemy's magic phase when a wizard near the thing can't cast spells but it could be sooner. Once it is known, then you may have others adjust to that knowledge. Remember that signals, flags and runners between units is a standard part of warfare in the ancient times (and can thus be expanded to fantasy).

logan054
18-12-2008, 18:17
I have to say i was agreeing with Logan's arguement until he started saying the the Movement Phase has nothing to do with the Combat Phase (i kept thinking what about charges?).

I was more meaning that

Movement phase on you do think movement related
Magic phase you only do things combat related
shooting phase you only do things shooting related
combat phase you only do things combat related

but yes charges do relate to the combat phase

nosferatu1001
18-12-2008, 20:37
Logan - you're missing the point.

As soon as you make B2B contact with a model carrying Vauls Unmaking, your magic weapon is nullified. At this point the Magic Item is relevant, as the character is no longer carrying a magic weapon.

At this point you would declare the item, not during combat

logan054
18-12-2008, 20:47
Actually i think your missing the point, that not supported by the rule book, as i said before, were does anything in the rule book suggest i would reveal a item that effects combat in any other phase than the combat phase?

Jerrus
18-12-2008, 21:01
Well since the "Magic-weapon nullifing" only works against Magic Weapons, one's opponent would have to first declare any Magic Weapons (when in b2b) if he wants one to reveal one's "Magic-weapon nullifing".

sulla
18-12-2008, 22:50
First off, I think way too much weight is being put on the discovery aspect; there's plenty of ways in which it might become known long before any models reach contact.

That being said, I think the "relevance" standard includes weapon choice, anyway.

I think you're probably right in your first statement there Nurgling. I might have derailed the post when I originally wrote that.

The main problem for me still remains that just because the talisman is working, I can't see where you would get the ability to choose a non magical weapon.

The main rules say you must always use a magical weapon in preference to your mundane weapons.

The Talisman says "The magical weapons of enemy models will have no special effects whilst in base contact with the bearer of the talisman. Treat the weapon as a normal one of it's type, e.g. a magic sword would count as a hand weapon, magic spear would count as a spear, etc"

To me, they still remain magical weapons, so you still have to use them. After all, the main rulebook rule is that you must always use your magical weapon, not that you must always use it unless it is inconvenient. And the talisman doesn't stop the weapon being a magic weapon, it just stops all it's special abilities.

Nurgling Chieftain
18-12-2008, 23:53
I don't get that argument. I don't see why the rule that it has to be used gets some weird, special exemption that doesn't apply to any of the other properties of the magic weapon. You quoted the rule saying to treat it as a normal weapon, and then turn around and say you should still treat it otherwise. How do you reconcile that? It says to treat it as a normal weapon, and your interpretation does not.

EDIT: To put it from a positive spin, I think that when it says you treat it as a normal weapon, that includes being able to select your weapons, since that's what you'd be able to do if it was, in fact, a normal weapon.

Necromancy Black
19-12-2008, 00:46
I agree with Nurgling Chieftain, in fatc I've said that about 2-3 times already. If I have to treat my magic weapon as a mundane weapon, I will treat it as one to the full extent of the rules, meaning I may swap it for another mundane weapon if, and only if, the item or ability that makes it count as a mundane weapon happens before I have to choose which weapon to fight with.

I don't get the argument that an item that takes affect when the enemy comes into base to base contact doesn't take affect at that point. Your saying it doesn't take affect for another 3 phrases, when there's nothing int he rules for the item saying "In the close comabt phase".

logan054
19-12-2008, 01:31
treating something as such isnt the same as actully being something, in this case treating it as a mundane weapon does not make it a mundane weapon, i still personally dont see anything to suggest you would reveal it before you decalre you are using a magical weapon but i will go with this other line of thought.

Condottiere
19-12-2008, 07:19
Since you have to choose your weapon selection just before combat, you aren't informed that your magic weapon has no effect. Therefore you have to choose that magic weapon, and then you are stuck wth it, unless it was by some effect totally destroyed, in which case you are free to choose any other weapon.

nosferatu1001
19-12-2008, 13:46
Condottieri - except your weapon is no longer magical BEFORE the combat phase. AS soon as you are in btb, it is a normal weapon of its type. as soon as - not 3 phases later. This means before you choose your weapons you must be told you no longer have a magical item, and you are therefore free to choose which weapons - after all, if you trerat it as a normal hand weapon, you are allowed to choose as that is one of the properties of a non-magical weapon.

Logan - you are missing that the ruels state you have to reveal a magic item as soon as its effects become relevant. An item that affects something in the movement phase, i.e. stopping something being magical, is relevant in that phase, even if the item affected cannot be used until the combat phase - the item has still had an effect. While it is also relevant in the combat phase, that is irrelevant as it is later and therefore the first occasiopn it is relevant takes precedence. You will not find a specifc rule stating that, just the general rule on relevance.

Overall I think this is clear - you have two situations:

1) the item makes your weapon "count as" or is "treated as" a normal hand weapon = you get to choose, if the effect happens before you select weapons

2) the item makes you lose the magical benefits, but does not strictly say it is non-magical or normal = you must still use that weapon.

Does that sound accurate to people?

Lord Zarkov
19-12-2008, 15:40
But it is only relavent if your oponent has a magic item to nullify, which you don't know until they declare it's use, by which time it's too late to switch. Of course if another charcter later came into contact they'd know to choose another weapon.
If the enemy character had already used his magic weapon you might have to declare it earlier though (since you then know the effect is relavent).

nosferatu1001
19-12-2008, 16:44
Whether or not you KNOW the opponent has a magic item to nullify, the item will nullify it regardless.

As such you should declare you have vauls unmaking as soon as you make BTB contact, as, regardless of what you know, the magic item, if it exists, HAS been nullified and this is therefore relevant.

Vauls Unmaking does not make a distinction between magic items you know about and magic items you don't, therefore it applied to both cases.

logan054
19-12-2008, 16:47
Logan - you are missing that the ruels state you have to reveal a magic item as soon as its effects become relevant.

So a item that effects closecombat is relevant in in the movement phase rather than the close combat phase, i think that the point you and others are missing, how is a chaos runeshield for example relevant to the remaing moves part of the movement phase? it has no relevance to the movement phase what so ever, it relevant to the part of the combat phase when you declare what weapons/shields you are using.

1) count as isnt the same as actually being a mundane weapon, its still a magical weapon and you still have to use it.

2) well yes it does make you lose the benefits, it is a 50pts item that only effect magical weapons :rolleyes: again it actually dosnt prevent the item being a magical weapon. The way i look at it is that it cancels the game text printed on the item unless this mentions any mundane properties.



As such you should declare you have vauls unmaking as soon as you make BTB contact, as, regardless of what you know, the magic item, if it exists, HAS been nullified and this is therefore relevant.

I thought that was a spell, why would i declare at any times other than the time i was casting it or rolled it up......

Nurgling Chieftain
19-12-2008, 21:16
...you aren't informed that your magic weapon has no effect.Let's say I have a crystal ball. Or I've fought that character before. Or, even, y'know, you always bring the same or nearly the same loadout every game like lots of people I know. What say you then?

AMWOOD co
19-12-2008, 22:36
Let's say I have a crystal ball. Or I've fought that character before. Or, even, y'know, you always bring the same or nearly the same loadout every game like lots of people I know. What say you then?


Otherwise, my opponent can ask me "Do you have that stupid nullifying item?" before the issue of him having a magic weapon has come up. The issue I see is the opponent coming into contact, magic sword at the ready, just to feel no magic when he actually swings. Then he would clue in to the Talisman of Saphery being present. If he already knows it's there (some other poor shmuck met it first or a scry of somekind revealed it) then he would have options.

I've already said it and now I'll say it again. This is how I see things happening.

sulla
20-12-2008, 05:23
Let's say I have a crystal ball. Or I've fought that character before. Or, even, y'know, you always bring the same or nearly the same loadout every game like lots of people I know. What say you then? Agreed. There are many ways you could know about this item. But the item doesn't stop a magical weapon being a magical weapon. It just stops the magical effects working. So in my opinion, that doesn't allow you to ignore the 'must always use your magic weapon' clause. And that's the real crux of the issue isn't it: The item is temporarily not working. Does that allow me to ignore the 'must use magic weapons' clause?

Necromancy Black
20-12-2008, 05:41
The item does not simply state that magic weapons loose there abilities, it also states that they count as a mundane weapon.

Again, I say that by counting them as a mundane weapon you will follow the full rules for mundane weapons, not the magical ones, meaning you can swap choose between weapons.

nosferatu1001
20-12-2008, 10:48
So a item that effects closecombat is relevant in in the movement phase rather than the close combat phase, i think that the point you and others are missing, how is a chaos runeshield for example relevant to the remaing moves part of the movement phase? it has no relevance to the movement phase what so ever, it relevant to the part of the combat phase when you declare what weapons/shields you are using.


You really can't understand how, if your item stops something frmo working IMMEDIATELY UPON CONTACT, that it isn't relevant at that point? It is irrelevant what phase the item would be used in, you have stopped it working at that point. The Chaos runeshield has stopped you having your sword of striking at the point of contact - the item has therefore made a change to an item. It has changed something - how can thaty not be relevant?

The least that you must agree upon is that, at the start of combat, the restriction on being able to choose weapons has been removed because the item "counts as a mundane weapon of the same type" - one of the rules of a mundane weapon is that you can choose what weapn to choose. At this point the item is relevant, therefore the item would indeed be relevant.

Again, if you have an item which makes them "count as a hand weapon" then it follows all the rules for hand weapons - you can't have it both ways Logan!

logan054
20-12-2008, 14:26
Actually i think its very relevant what phase you use the item because that is when the item becomes relevant, what relevance does a magic shield effecting a magic sword have on the movement phase? does it effect the movement phase in any way? dosnt does it, so if it dosnt have a affect on the given phase it isnt relevant.

I actually dont agree with that at all, as i said it hasnt stopped being a magic weapon, at no point does it say it no longer counts as a magical weapon, it still is a magical weapon.

BTW Necromancy Black depends what item you are talking, obsidian armour just states that the weapon lose all its magical abilties, it dosnt state it counts a mundane weapon (i would say it does but thats another discussion), chaos runeshield dosnt state it becomes mundane (sorry thats the old wording), it again states the weapon loses its powers and is treated a ordinary weapon of its type (so that isnt saying it becomes mundane at all).

I cant speak for all such items but we should approach them in a similar manor

DeathlessDraich
20-12-2008, 14:54
Just having a quick look to see why this discussion is going on.

Nothing worthwhile or of real substance so I wont comment further :p

nosferatu1001
20-12-2008, 17:11
Logan - so you really think that an item that states "models in btb contact" doesn't take effect until you tell it to? Really, that is the crux of your argument? Despite the item stating that it takes effect on models in btb? And when do models which are charging / charged get into base contact. Ah right, the movement phase. So yes, I *am* saying the runeshield, whcih does not state any restrictions ON WHEN IT IS IN EFFECT apart from "in btb" does take effect in the movement phase.

I have therefore found a rule which states

1) when it is effect
2) what it does as soon as it is in effect

To disprove this you need to show that items like this have a specific "phase" they take effect in (which you can't) OR that you are somehow allowed to delay the effect until when you want it to occur. PLease, find those rules- if you cannot cite a page reference, your opinion that you can choose, or that it somehow doesnt happen immediately really doesnt count.

Counts as a hand weapon - if it counts as a hand weapon it therefore counts as a hand weapon when it comes to the allowance for changing weapons - otherwise you are not counting it as a hand weapon. Really, why is that so difficult to grasp? You are told to "counts as" - without restriction. You are the one placing restrictions on the "counts as" without being told you can.

Again, you therefore need to find a rule whcih allows you to "count it as" a hand weapon for everything excpet for choosing weapons. If you cannot do this, then again it is only your opinion that it doesn't work.

nosferatu1001
20-12-2008, 17:15
As an addition - since when does an item have to effect a certain phase to be relevant? Oh thats right, it is something you have made up. the rules actually state nothing of the kind, just leave it very generally "relevant"

If an item effects something, then regardless of what phase you are in that item has caused an effect, and that effect is relevant for the rules on revealing something. Do you not think the magic sword of much magickness wielder wouldn't notice his sword had stopped working? Or do you think the person stands there waiting for combat, checking his email?

logan054
20-12-2008, 17:26
Logan - so you really think that an item that states "models in btb contact" doesn't take effect until you tell it to?

obviously your not reading my post then, did i say that? no i didnt, i said it dosnt take effect until its relevant to the game, a item that negates magic weapons has nothing to do with the movement phase.


To disprove this you need to show that items like this have a specific "phase" they take effect in (which you can't) OR that you are somehow allowed to delay the effect until when you want it to occur

Who said anything about a delayed effect, using a magic weapon has nothing to do with a movement phase, it only effect the weapon being used, the weapon is only used in the combat phase. I cant think of a single weapon that while in b2b with a model can be used in another phase. It has nothing to do with a delayed reaction, by using the term delayed reaction your talking about it as if it was a real object, if we are talking about things as real objects then you are suggesting that everything in warhammer has a delayed reaction, your suggesting that guns actually wait for wizards to caste magic and closeombat fighters hang about waiting for the wizards and guns to do the business, right.....



Counts as a hand weapon - if it counts as a hand weapon it therefore counts as a hand weapon when it comes to the allowance for changing weapons

As i pointed out most of the items actually dont say that, thats the old wording from 6th ed items, the wording has been changed with 7th ed items. I suggest you find me the part that actually states they cease being magic weapons

nosferatu1001
20-12-2008, 21:56
Logan - i don't need to find a rule, you do. If it states they count as hand weapons, they do exactly that. by counting as hand weapons they are no longer magic weapons for the purpose of deciding what weapon you are allowed to use.

If you don't let them choose their weapon then you are not using counts as a hand weapon in every respect. As stated - I have applied the rule exactly, you now need to find a rule that limits them to not counting as a hand weapon for specific cases. If they count as a hand weapon, that overrides them being a magic weapon unless stated otherwise - now please find that exception. If you can now please cite rules, like I'm doing? Otherwise everything is your opinion on how you think it should work.

Nice straw man by the way - the edition of the rule is irrelevant, as long as the army book is current. Yes, they make it more explicit in the current one (e.g. runeshield) however that is irrelevant, and was presumably added in order that people who couldn';t understand what "counts as a normal handweapon" actually means were now better informed. Obviously telling you "this is a handweapon" wasn't clear enough.

I was the one that suggested it was silly to suggest they stood around waiting, so again well done on that one. Unfortunately the game IS split into phases therefore using the term "delayed reaction" is perfectly appropriate to describe your attempt to delay applying the effects of an item from when it actually occurs (the movement phase, as soon as btb contact is made) to a point later in that turn. So again, answer how you are allowed to do that.

The item says "when in btb contact"
You are in btb contact
The item activates immediately, as you are not told otherwise.

If you delay doing so, you are breaking the rules of the item and you are cheating, specifically to attempt to give yourself an advantage. If you want to show the item does not activate at that point, then please show the actual rule that allows this. Again, if you don't provide rules then it is your opinion on how it should be played.

To whit: If the item in question has an effect that is activated when the wearer is in base to base with another model, then that model has activated the item at that point. If it does something to the other model that has an in game effect then by the definition of the term "relevant" the effect must be declared immediately. at worst it must be declared at the start of the combat phase, to therefore allow the character to choose weapons. If you do not do so you have failed to follow the rules for your item. It is irrelevant when the model who has been affected would use the item that has been affected, so you are presenting a straw man argument there.

So - could you please cite some rules? Something along the lines of you being able to pick and choose when an item activates without it telling you you can, something that states "reveal an effect as soon as it is relevant" actually means "when i think it may be relevant, despite it happening 3 phases before"? Anything along those lines will do. With page numbers please.

logan054
20-12-2008, 22:21
Logan - i don't need to find a rule, you do.


Why is that, because you cant find the rule and thus your own defence is to tell me to look for a rule, funny that is originally what i said after being accused of cheating for playing a rule a certain way


If it states they count as hand weapons, they do exactly that. by counting as hand weapons they are no longer magic weapons for the purpose of deciding what weapon you are allowed to use.

As i said it one the items i looked at it dosnt state that, again you are failing to actually read my post


Nice straw man by the way - the edition of the rule is irrelevant, as long as the army book is current.

Oh look, again we didnt read the post did we, let me explain, the old chaos runeshield for example is worded differently to the currently, the use of "counts as" is actually the old editions rules (the HoC book not the WoC book), so actually ist very relevant ;)


I was the one that suggested it was silly to suggest they stood around waiting, so again well done on that one.

Actually you didnt, i had already said this several pages back ;)


Unfortunately the game IS split into phases therefore using the term "delayed reaction"

Actually it isnt, as i said so many times now, having a magical shield has nothing to do with the movement phase, the only person attempting to do anything is yourself, you are attempting to find a loophole to get around a magic item, by mentioning rules without page numbers or quotes. As you are the one that originally claimed that moving into B2B automatically reveals all items that affect a model out of phase order im still waiting for proof on this. I think the fact you continuously just turn this back on myself says it all.


If the item in question has an effect that is activated when the wearer is in base to base with another model, then that model has activated the item at that point. If it does something to the other model that has an in game effect then by the definition of the term "relevant" the effect must be declared immediately.

You problem here is you assuming that its relevant to the movement phase, as i said before, it actually has no bearing on phase, as i said before, a item that negates a magic weapon has no relevance to moving units, fleeing units, making charges or anything that is done in the phase. It does however effect the closecombat phase, and that is the bottom line.


So - could you please cite some rules?

I will when you do ;)

nosferatu1001
20-12-2008, 23:46
Logan - how the *$* have I turned my back on you. I have attempted to explain something to you which is painfully obvious to so, so many people.

I am following the rules given by the item text. Please answer this question - if the item activates with the clause "nullifies....carried by models in BtB", please answer this question:

Q: WHEN DOES THE ITEM ACTIVATE:

1) Immediately when the model moves into base to base.
2) At some other, unspecified point, to be decided upon by the owning player.

There - I have now cited a rule for the item Chaos Runeshield. It states "in BtB" - please find me a rule within the rule for the magic item on page 113 that states that it does not take effect when the model is moved into base to base. Please also find a rule which then states which phase it takes effect in - if there are no restrictions, would this mean it would activate immediately? If you can finally, eventually agree that it activates immediately, as you are not told otherwise, then the following corrolary is true:

C: When the model moves into base to base, any magic items are nullified. Very simple, very straightforward.

Finally - i nowhere said it was the OLD chaos runeshield I was talking about. I was using the general statement "counts as" and then asking you to explain how if you "count as" a hand weapon with no restrictions, as none are given by the rule, how this does not also "count as" a hand weapon for the purpose of choosing weapons. this would apply to any instance which used the words "counts as", which was what we are discussing. By suddenly trying to claim this is "old wording" you are not arguing what I have written, and deflecting it by building an absurdity and showign it is absurd [old rules that no longer apply] So as i said, straw man argument.

I have given you a rule - "counts as a hand weapon of the same type" - and shown, by simple english comprehension, how this must include all instances of "counting as a hand weapon", including choosing weapons. As this is a permissive ruleset, I have now found the rule that would permit me to choose weapons - you now need to find a rule that counters or otherwise restricts that. That is how the ruleset works - so, I say again, I *have* given a rule, you now need to give a rule that supports your argument. If you can't, then it is your opinion.

So to sum up:

- An item that effects someone in BtB must activate as soon as this condition is fulfilled - unless you are told otherwise
- If this item then has an in game effect, regardless of what phase of the game the item that is effected could be used in, it is relevant* at the point it is activated
- If a magic item has a relevant effect then it must be declared

I'm not sure how this can be explained any more succintly - and I'm not sure I can be bothered. You now have rule quotes, page numbers and a logical, clear folloowing of the rules. You have weird exceptions, some garbage when you talk about moveing chargers, and straw men. And a staggering inability to answer very simple questions.

*as the rules for relevancy do not state "within the appropriate phase" or other such limiting language. Again, rules for permissive ruleset - I have a rule that tells me this is relevant, without any restriction on when, then it is relevant immediately. You then apply the rest of the rule which is - tada - declare the item and what it has done. You seem to think "relevant" has something to do with the rules for the phase - however the rules do not cover that, or tell you that is what relevant means.

Again, *at worst* the item is nullifed and definitely relevent at the start of the close combat phase, BEFORE choosing weapons. SO again you lose.

Neckutter
21-12-2008, 00:11
while i hate to break up the love-fest that logan and nos are having, i feel id like to weigh in:

as soon as your shield is in base contact, the opposing magic weapon is then treated like a mundane weapon. as such, when combat starts the BRB forces you to use your magic weapon, HOWEVER it is treated as a mundane weapon, and the owner of the magic weapon must be notified of its inefectiveness. then the magic-weapon player is then free to choose any mundane weapon that he has at that point.

the logic behind this is that if you dont tell me that my magic weapon isnt magic anymore, and after i start rolling dice... you have forgotten about your magic-shield and have thus waved you chance of using it. it is like forgetting you have a dispel scroll, or you forget your magic banner does +1 combat res after you have rolled your breakcheck.

if you dont use your magic shield in time, then you dont get to use it once dice are being rolled.

nosferatu1001
21-12-2008, 01:07
Which is pretty much what I was saying - see the "worst case" I put at the end. Glad someone else sees it this way :)

If you don't tell them their magic sword, which they thought they had to use, is no longer magical and they therefore get a choice, then your item is not applicable. You have not declared when relevant (at worst case before combat begins) and therefore you have forfeited your right to use it.

If you try to insist on it still working, then you are cheating

AMWOOD co
26-12-2008, 05:56
... see the "worst case"...

If you don't tell them their magic sword, which they thought they had to use, is no longer magical and they therefore get a choice, then your item is not applicable. You have not declared when relevant (at worst case before combat begins) and therefore you have forfeited your right to use it.

If you try to insist on it still working, then you are cheating

Scenario: You have not declared/revealed your magic sword and have begun rolling (let's say you are using a Runefang for ease) your to-hit rolls after I have already attacked you. You reveal after your to-hit rolls that your have a Runefang and that I am now taking, let's say, all 3 wounds I would take from an Empire General (the unit type). I now reveal the Chaos Runeshield, nullifying your Runefang.

This is the worst case, because denying me my Runeshield makes a whole combat round irrelevant as I would demand a new weapon choice (like that greatweapon I took for killing the Steam Tank).

I, personally, have never encountered this scenario. It is understood by my group that you choose your equipment in the blind upon contact with the enemy. There are no special checks of "Do you have this?" as that seems against the purpose of certain items.

How would you resolve the above, sirs? Would the Empire player, whose side represents nosferatu1001, force the Chaos player to redo the whole combat round or just his round? Would the Chaos player, whose side represents logan051, be acknowledged as having trumped the Empire player?

I, personally having used many items like this and having them used against me, would say that the Empire player was outmatched. That seems to be the point of anit-magic-weapon magic items. How can I know my item is relevant if I don't know you have a magic weapon? Are you going to tell me upon contact, "I have a Runfang, do you have the Talisman of Saphery?" to every High Elf army I play?

Note: Though this ends in a rhetorical question, it is not made in a demeaning manor. The intended tone is serious and questioning. No personal attacks are intended and the stated people are just shown as to what sides of the obvious arguement they take in this, the worst case scenario.

Storak
26-12-2008, 21:15
does anyone have a reference to the "magic items are revealed, when they take effect" part? i couldn t find it in the rule book.

if such a line is in the book, then it is clear, that you can change weapon (against items using the effect when in base contact" phrase). if not, it gets more complicated.

losing the effects of a magic item might get relevant in the movement phase, for example a loss of defensive stats on a char would keep you from releasing fanatics through him...
it could also effect the magic or shooting phase...


So you reach combat against someone with the Talisman of Saphery. At the moment you reach B2B, the Talisman takes effect, and your magical weapon counts as non-magical. Then, in HtH, you've got a non-magical weapon and a magical weapon that counts as non-magical. At that point, you can choose either, since neither one counts as a magical weapon.

you forgot the most funny option: use BOTH and dual wield the two HW you now own...

attention, important piece of information: while rule-lawyering, always go for maximum effect!

ps: i am interested in this question. black orcs seem to be the only chars, that would really benefit from this academic question!

nosferatu1001
26-12-2008, 21:38
.........SNIP.........
This is the worst case, because denying me my Runeshield makes a whole combat round irrelevant as I would demand a new weapon choice (like that greatweapon I took for killing the Steam Tank).
.........SNIP.........


No, the worst case as I have outlined is that your are forced, as soon as your Runeshield [which activates immediately upon BtB contact remember; no permission to delay] makes contact with an enemy, to state that the opponent now has no magical weapons (or items, cant remember what it specifies) if they had them.

The Runeshield nullifies upon contact - therefore it is either relevant immediately, or at worst it is rlevant at the start of the close combat phase. You MUST declare activation if activation is possible; to not do so would break the "relevancy" rule and would therfore not be legal. The situation you have outlined above is not possible if you followed the rules inthe first place - they wouldnt be shocked that you had the Runeshield, as you will have told them.

Yes, you may think it sucks - however how many characters carry a Runefang and, say, a GW "just in case"? - you are still nullifyikng their magical weapon, still enhancing your defence.

Neckutter
26-12-2008, 21:40
when combat begins(right before you start rolling dice) you decide on which weapons to use. at this point is when you reveal your characters have magic weapons.

your scenario:
my empire general on barded warhorse with runefang, your WoC Exalted with the Runeshield.
i charged you. our characters are in base contact.
i decline to challenge. you say "well my exalted has to challenge" i say "well i accept with my empire general" i say "ok, i have the runefang, so all hits automatically wound;no armor save." you say "i have the chaos runeshield, it is a mundane weapon" i say "oh ok, then since it is mundane, i will choose my mundane lance instead."

then you continue rolling. and see who wins.

another signifigant scenario:
im playing my TK. your WoC exalted charges my tomb guard with tomb prince(great weapon, shield, armor of the +1W).
you say you challenge, i accept with my tomb prince. BEFORE you start rolling YOU declare what weapon you are using, and then i decide whether i want to use hw+shield or my GW. then we start rolling dice. i dont get to see if you miss your attacks so i can use my GW. i would have to pick GW or shield BEFORE you roll your attacks.

and i agree, black orcs are silly. armed to da teef lets them use 2 HWs/GWs with BSBs when their magic weapon is negated. pretty resourceful for orcs.

AMWOOD co
27-12-2008, 03:14
your scenario:
my empire general on barded warhorse with runefang, your WoC Exalted with the Runeshield.
i charged you. our characters are in base contact.
i decline to challenge. you say "well my exalted has to challenge" i say "well i accept with my empire general" i say "ok, i have the runefang, so all hits automatically wound;no armor save." you say "i have the chaos runeshield, it is a mundane weapon" i say "oh ok, then since it is mundane, i will choose my mundane lance instead."

I like this. Thanks for this. I think I'll suggest this to my group to be used from now on. (Furthur praise to be inserted upon my feeling like it)


another signifigant scenario:
im playing my TK. your WoC exalted charges my tomb guard with tomb prince(great weapon, shield, armor of the +1W).
you say you challenge, i accept with my tomb prince. BEFORE you start rolling YOU declare what weapon you are using, and then i decide whether i want to use hw+shield or my GW. then we start rolling dice. i dont get to see if you miss your attacks so i can use my GW. i would have to pick GW or shield BEFORE you roll your attacks.

and i agree, black orcs are silly. armed to da teef lets them use 2 HWs/GWs with BSBs when their magic weapon is negated. pretty resourceful for orcs.

True on both accounts. Did I not mention I love my Black Orcs?

My issue is when exactly weapons are revealed. The common time is when the magic weapon actually changes the standard process of to-hit, to-wound, saves when compared to the characters bare stats. Personally, as stated, repeatedly, above, I like what you said Neckutter. Bravo.

Gazak Blacktoof
27-12-2008, 22:26
does anyone have a reference to the "magic items are revealed, when they take effect" part? i couldn t find it in the rule book.

In order to explain why you are shooting, attacking, nullifying an item, etc you will have to reveal the process you are using to perform the action.

If I have an elector count with a dragon bow and want to shoot your wizard, I would announce "I am shooting your wizard with my dragon bow".

In order to resolve the effects of the rune shield the player being affected needs to know it is there. If I had an exalted champion equipped with a rune shield I would announce after making contact with an enemy, "My exalted champion has the rune shield, your magic weapons in base contact will no longer function". The rune shield takes effect once base contact is made, this is when it should be revealed, I wont know if its "effect" will have an "affect" until after it has been "used" but the only way to know is to try. There is no other way to resolve the situation.