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Sevor
16-12-2008, 22:31
I've been playing fantasy a long time, but just got into Daemons in the last 6 months. As far as I can read, there really is no sense in fielding a DP. I've read similar opinions online, but have a lot of trust in this posting community. Am I missing something or was the DP page a waste of ink and paper?

FunkyRatDemon
16-12-2008, 22:36
It's a cool model is all
2 Heralds cost less and do more, or a Greater Daemon in more ferocious and deadly...

thrawn
16-12-2008, 22:44
from what i can tell seems to me a waste. i think they tried to fix that with WoC DP, but even then he's not really worth the points. the only way i might take one is to get a lvl 2 slaanesh or nurgle mage and save a bit of points. but really, you are much better off taking a GD. that's my two cents!

lokigod
16-12-2008, 22:56
Hmm couple reason i would never take a prince over heralds or greater daemon.
1. over priced
2. 75 points in gifts and has to use those to be able to fly....
3. Why not spend a little more on a greater daemon and get a way better stat line...
4. 2 hearlds with there locus are way more flexible.

So I think your right they are a waste of ink :( too bad I have 3 converted up and painted that will never see use now....

aforce808
16-12-2008, 23:35
At least he's better than the one in the WoC book... I'm not saying that he's useful or cost effective, just that he doesn't suck quite as bad as theirs does. :-)

Kalec
16-12-2008, 23:44
Actually, the WOC prince is much better then the DOC one.

aforce808
16-12-2008, 23:56
I would have to respectfully disagree with you Kalec, and for a couple of reasons. He doesn't have magical attacks for one thing. How is a daemon of any sort, let alone a prince, going to have non-magical attacks? He has worse leadership than a regular Lord. Also, he doesn't have any of the gifts that the DoC Prince has that can actually make him good at killing something. You can't make the DoC prince fly or be a Lvl 4 caster, but if you do that to the WoC one, you are talking about 460 points for a flying mage that can't join units and isn't all that effective otherwise. Terror bombing isn't what it used to be either, with all of the Daemons and VC that live on the top tables.

thrawn
17-12-2008, 00:29
aforce808, most of the short commings you listed the DoC DP also suffers from. the WoC DP at least gets wings as standard and when you buy him a mark he gets a benefit, unlike the DoC DP whose expensive mark gives him the honor and prevelige to use the magic. such garbage!

Jericho
17-12-2008, 01:53
How about we just agree that he's a waste of time/points for either army? The WOC one has very few options worth taking, and if upgraded to Level 4 then he's much more expensive than a Sorceror Lord and barely better in combat. Add in marks and gifts and he can be 500-600 pts very quickly. The DOC one is simply outclassed by the GD's and Heralds.

pfishy98
17-12-2008, 01:59
too bad he sucks cos hes a dang sweet model

Darth ryanus
17-12-2008, 10:44
I would have to respectfully disagree with you Kalec, and for a couple of reasons. He doesn't have magical attacks for one thing. How is a daemon of any sort, let alone a prince, going to have non-magical attacks? He has worse leadership than a regular Lord. Also, he doesn't have any of the gifts that the DoC Prince has that can actually make him good at killing something. You can't make the DoC prince fly or be a Lvl 4 caster, but if you do that to the WoC one, you are talking about 460 points for a flying mage that can't join units and isn't all that effective otherwise. Terror bombing isn't what it used to be either, with all of the Daemons and VC that live on the top tables.

you can make him/her (i play slaanesh) fly by giving him/her wings at 20 points. But i do agree with everyone i find it hard to think of a use that is not done better/cheaper by 2 heralds or a GD. If it was say 100 points cheaper or paying for a mark gave something other than just the use of the relevant lore it might be worth it.

amazingdev2005
17-12-2008, 18:30
I'd never field one for the reasons listed above, but there are some interesting combos that raise an eyebrow.

Tired of slow-moving, shambling Nurgle units and characters? Try a prince with wings and Trappings for a +4 AS, +5 Ward, Regen monster with 20" range and doesn't give enemy missile fire +1 to hit. Upgrade him to the ludicrous price of a lvl 2 wizard, choose the first spell of Nurgle, and hopefully he can reduce enemies' S, T, WS, and I forget what else down to 1; that is, if it's not dispelled :) Combine that with a PB unit to the rear containing a Nurgle herald BSB and Stubborn banner, get within 12" of the attacking Prince and let him go to town. Not efficient, though.

In all, a shame that we can't choose a mid-level character inbetween a herald and a full-blown greater demon.

-Devon

isidril93
17-12-2008, 21:08
fact is you cant compare it to a gd or heralds cos they are different things.
heralds are there to boost units while GD are there to win the game.

a DP is somewhere in between.
he is not a large unit and so does can hide ect...
has some thing GD cannot access.
he is there to take down those warmachines or archers which normal units cant get to and GDs dont waste their time on.

but i believe he will come in usefull in larger battles where there would be a GD and a DP.

also it is very fluffy.

so lets think about ways to make a good GD.
i say many armed monstrocity, lv2, flying horror and using fire magic.
that way you'll get a blasty flying creature who has the potenial (1/3 of the time) to have 8 s8 hitting on 2s attacks

Axis
17-12-2008, 22:40
I've been playing fantasy a long time, but just got into Daemons in the last 6 months. As far as I can read, there really is no sense in fielding a DP. I've read similar opinions online, but have a lot of trust in this posting community. Am I missing something or was the DP page a waste of ink and paper?

The Belakor model is ridiculously good... that is the big reason to take one.

Sevor
18-12-2008, 06:15
Isidril, how about this for a little bit more stability? (I believe you might be on to something here)

Instead of Armed Monstrosity...

DP

Tzeentch
Lv 2
Winged Horror
MoS

This way, you KNOW you can use Sword of Rhuin, and you can use the other spells as well, only 10 more points, and you only lose 2 attacks.

Hmm...what else do people have to make viable DP's?

Darth ryanus
18-12-2008, 07:25
ok how about

DP
lvl 2
immortal fury
soul hunger
unnatural swiftness

cost 460
so you get a always strike first combat monster that re-rolls missed attacks and wounds.

AMWOOD co
18-12-2008, 10:23
I have to say that the Daemon Prince for the Warriors of Chaos can be very effective. True it has no magic attacks... big deal! Zap the Treefolk and Ethereal things with my lvl 4 mage powers. Here's the build I used in my last game:

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch (4+ ward save, +1 to cast)
lvl 4 wizard (Tzeentch Lore, got spells 1,2,3,5)
Diabolic Splendor (-1 Ld for enemy tests of Fear, Terror and Panic from him)
Word of Agony (Once per game, D6 S4 hits on enemy model at beginning of close combat phase)
Gift of the Blood God (MR(2), 4+ ward (improved to 3+ with MoT) against spells)

Total cost: 570

Yes, he costs alot, but he killed off a unit of rat Ogres, a unit of globadiers, and made the deciding cast of Rise to Glory, and all in two turns (game called very early due to time and one of our players is flying to Ottawa to visit his dad then going to Florida to see his grandmother, so it's over). Combine this with the Pandaemonium spell to see some real (Ehem) Chaos in the enemy's ranks. Just watch out for fully armoured knights. I had to face Empire knights with the 'Get you by' list. While my prince did hold out for 5 rounds of combat (losing each time, Stubborn 8 is nothing to sneer at), he only managed to kill one knight per round. In the end neither broke; they fought to a standstill.

I've seen the suggestion to take a Sorceror Lord on a Disk instead. The Sorceror can't fight like a Prince can, so it's not going to happen. Besides, the new Tzeentch list for Warriors only has 1 magic missle. That makes it combat friendly. My Prince can eat his cake and cast up a new one so he can still have it.

isidril93
18-12-2008, 15:31
Isidril, how about this for a little bit more stability? (I believe you might be on to something here)

Instead of Armed Monstrosity...

DP

Tzeentch
Lv 2
Winged Horror
MoS

This way, you KNOW you can use Sword of Rhuin, and you can use the other spells as well, only 10 more points, and you only lose 2 attacks.

Hmm...what else do people have to make viable DP's?

i would take that but i dont relly like tzeentch (ye si know what immissing out on but any way)

actually though this is the best combo, i think.

Sevor
18-12-2008, 23:02
ok how about

DP
lvl 2
immortal fury
soul hunger
unnatural swiftness

cost 460
so you get a always strike first combat monster that re-rolls missed attacks and wounds.

I like that too. Only problem is his STR 5 isn't awesome, and would have to pick his fights very carefully.

Alright so 3 viable so far. (Sorry can't count the WoC one since I play Daemons) I'd like to see if there is any further we can stretch this.

W0lf
19-12-2008, 00:40
Yes there are viable builds but for a few points more a greater daemon is like 20x better?

Darth ryanus
19-12-2008, 09:29
I agree you can make a good DP but not good enough when like Wolf says the GD is not that much more but miles better. If giving it a mark did something i think that would solve the main problem of costing to much

Khorne-hatred
Tzeentch-4+ward save
Nurgle- Regen
Slaanesh- always strikes first

This would keep it in line with the Heralds/core units of the chosen god with out over powering the DP. What do people think

Warsmith Tharak
19-12-2008, 09:53
A flying price of Nurgel with strem of curuption(?) + the tallyman to rank up kills fast. Not sure about points and I have never tried it, but it could work...
Make him a 3 level wizard to get that nice +5 to cast.

Darth ryanus
19-12-2008, 10:19
DP can only be up to lvl2 wizards

W0lf
19-12-2008, 11:13
It is a shame because i would kill to have the DoC prince in my WoC army easily. Its just he competes with GD who are not only better but cooler aswell.

Its a shame. Maybe if he was another 50 pts cheaper? The problem is that he is perfectly fine outside the daemons army for his cost but inside that broken ass list hes over costed. :P

Darth ryanus
19-12-2008, 11:15
There is nothing broken in the DOC list just very twisted.;)

changer of fate
19-12-2008, 14:17
hate it when good looking model sucks in game:mad:

isidril93
19-12-2008, 17:36
if the dp would get the locus then paying that extra 35 pts would be worth being marked but its not so heres another one:
lv 2
immortal fury, winged horror, unnatural swiftness
asf, reroll to hit, flying monster.
5 s5 attacks are nothing to be laughed at when combined with a unit of hounds in the front

also does anyone have any pics of the new daemon prince coming out...the rumour forum has only two pages.

Muad'Dib
19-12-2008, 19:06
The problem with Daemon Prince is that, for 20-30 points more, you can get this:
Bloodthirster, Armour of Khorne, Immortal Fury, Spellbreaker/Collar of Khorne
Way better stats, much tougher against small arms shooting, provides anti-magic. Only drawback is large target (which can be an advantage against non-shooting armies)
or
Keeper of Secrets, Siren, Soul Hunger, Torment Blade
Better stats, AFS, Siren provides multitude of options.
Both GDs also have higher LD.

Sadly, there is no simply no reason to take DP at all - if someone wants a cheap 330-400 points character, why not simply take a Khorne Herald or two ?

isidril93
19-12-2008, 19:15
the blood thirster cost a bit more than 30 pts, gives no dd (only some resistance for itself) is a large target.

hers another idea
lv 2
mot, immortal fury, unnatural swiftness and the one that gives you all spells

i would use either sword of rhuin or bears anger which gives 8 s7 attacks and makes him t6

Darth ryanus
21-12-2008, 13:52
I would have expected GW to make the DP uber as they do have the shiny new model due for release.

Harwammer
21-12-2008, 14:05
I would have expected GW to make the DP uber as they do have the shiny new model due for release.

Maybe BoC are getting one with the stats of a blood thirster, casts like teclis, pendant wardsave and unbreakable instead of instable. All for 5 points?

Darth ryanus
21-12-2008, 14:24
Maybe BoC are getting one with the stats of a blood thirster, casts like teclis, pendant wardsave and unbreakable instead of instable. All for 5 points?

5 points thats way to overpriced more like 3

isidril93
22-12-2008, 18:50
any other ideas? any more combos?

penek
28-12-2008, 13:24
Nurgle DP
Lvl 2 mage.
Winged
Noxious Vapours (enemy in BTB strike last, lose ASF)
Immortal Fury (reroll hits)
= 490pts.
If you get another casters to force opponent spend dispells on them, then this DP just wreck anyone who can attack.
Charge, cast 1st nurgle spell. Enjoy.
ps. also you can drop second magic level (= to use just 1st spell

Latro_
28-12-2008, 14:01
Being fairly green ot fantasy and daemons I read the DP entry about once, It seems to me Heralds and Hero SC's are the meat and potatoe chracters of choice and maybe a GD if you have the pts. See no unit/char that a DP fills that isnt dont better and cheaper elsequare.

Briohmar
28-12-2008, 16:17
I have found that a lvl 2 Slaanesh Prince with wings and many armed makes quite a nice second lord in 3000+ games. they actually are quite worhtgwhile in that role, but as has been said, not that great as a first lord choice.

Wapniak
28-12-2008, 16:39
You can also get an additional attack for the spare 5 points on this DP gift allowance by giving him the Torment Blade. ;)

penek
28-12-2008, 18:00
You dont get additional attack, as its not count for additional weapon (imho)

Devon Harmon
28-12-2008, 19:06
The daemon prince is listed as being armed with a hand weapon. The Torment Blade specifically states that it is a hand weapon. He is then a model on foot armed with two hand weapons, so he gets an extra attack. It is a daemonic gift, not a magic item, so the prohibition on page 121 against using a mundane weapon in conjunction with a magic weapon does not apply. [Even if it was a Magic Weapon and the prohibition did apply, the Torment Blade would be exempt because in its description it is spoecifically said to be a hand weapon].

At first I thought it was insane that a 5 point item would grant an extra attack, since most other armies would have to pay 15-25 points for the privilege. But consider that a daemon prince's attacks are already magical by default. With other armies, their attacks aren't magical by default, so the sword of battle isn't just adding 1 attack, it is adding 1 attack and making all of their attacks magical.

Sevor
30-12-2008, 04:05
If that is truly the case, that's awesome. Giving Heralds and DP one extra attack for 5 pts?

Ok, what's the opinion of the forum members about this? Can anyone find an errata or otherwise to show evidence for or against this?

Guanyin
30-12-2008, 12:34
If that is truly the case, that's awesome. Giving Heralds and DP one extra attack for 5 pts?

Ok, what's the opinion of the forum members about this? Can anyone find an errata or otherwise to show evidence for or against this?

Sure. He is a monster, not an infantry model. (BRB p7and demon book p30)
Anyone trying to get an extra attack out of it is a rulestwisting git. (a cheating one at that)

penek
30-12-2008, 15:00
Only this is written not at p7 or p30, but on page 55-56 in BRB, section covering hand weapons.
And even it not mention Monsters, just models on foot, and deny any special use of second HW, only when model is mounted on something.

Guanyin
30-12-2008, 15:52
Only this is written not at p7 or p30, but on page 55-56 in BRB, section covering hand weapons.
And even it not mention Monsters, just models on foot, and deny any special use of second HW, only when model is mounted on something.

page 56 BRB state "fighting with 2 hand weapons (infantry).

A demon prince is a monster, acording to demons of chaos book page 30. How monsters and infantry works is stated in BRB page 7.

isidril93
30-12-2008, 17:50
they get no +1 attack for the torment blade, not even heralds since it replaces their normal hand weapon like any other magic hand weapon.
you get no +1 attack from the sword of might even though you character already has another hand weapon, why should this be any different?

its true that the DP makes an excellent second lord, using his speed to make up for a GUO' s lack of legs

Devon Harmon
31-12-2008, 06:21
they get no +1 attack for the torment blade, not even heralds since it replaces their normal hand weapon like any other magic hand weapon.
you get no +1 attack from the sword of might even though you character already has another hand weapon, why should this be any different?


It is different because torment blades are not magic items (DoC pg. 92). Since they are not magic items, the prohibition against using a mundane weapon with a magical one would not apply. I think an argument can be made that the Herald gets +1 attack.

As for the DP, I missed that part on page 30 that classifies them as a monster(cleverly disguised in a fluff-looking box). I guess that I wish GW would specifically classify each unit's type in the entry (as they do for 40k). I was operating under the assumption that DPs fell into the "Up to and including Ogre Sized Square 40/50mm base on foot" category. The DPs I use are the GW models produced in 1997. They are on foot and came with a 40mm base. Notwithstanding their wings, they are roughly Ogre sized. I've been playing them as infantry with US 3, when it seems they are a monster with US 4. Sorry for being a cheating rulestwisting git.

Is there some handy way to distinguish the difference between infantry on a 40/50mm base that is roughly ogre sized and a monster? It seems to me that "roughly Ogre sized" is a poorly defined term. That Ogre from Battlemasters is huge!

Guanyin
31-12-2008, 10:31
It is different because torment blades are not magic items (DoC pg. 92). Since they are not magic items, the prohibition against using a mundane weapon with a magical one would not apply. I think an argument can be made that the Herald gets +1 attack.

You might want to argue that is the case, but it is clear an extra attack is not intended. GW does not give out an extra attack with additional effects for that point cost, especially not in the "kinda magic item but not realy magic item" section. Looking on other models that get extra attacks, it usually either says so, or "additional handweapon" is said. Characters aswell buy "additional handweapon", not "handweapon".



Is there some handy way to distinguish the difference between infantry on a 40/50mm base that is roughly ogre sized and a monster? It seems to me that "roughly Ogre sized" is a poorly defined term. That Ogre from Battlemasters is huge!
Not realy, besides that monsters generally dont form units. So if its ranked up in units, asume its Ogresized infantry. GW needs to learn to type out rules as "monster" on monsters etc in my humble opinion.

Wapniak
31-12-2008, 12:57
The Torment Blade gives an additional attack to the herald for 100% (just as dark elf magical weapons with hand weapon/ beastmasters scourge rules do). Noone should have doubts about that. If it was not intended they would simply omit the "Hand weapon" (nor Aetherblade, nor Axe of Khorne, nor Firestorm Blade have the hand weapon special rule). But about the Demon Prince I'm not so sure now. In my opinion the DP shall gain an additional attack, as he only "follows some rules concerning monsters" (there's something like that in the BRB). I think he is still an infantry model (at least he was in previous editions and I think he still is in WoC book), however this is not clear. I' ll check the rules again.

penek
31-12-2008, 13:24
page 56 BRB state "fighting with 2 hand weapons (infantry).

A demon prince is a monster, acording to demons of chaos book page 30. How monsters and infantry works is stated in BRB page 7.

it doesnt say Infantry. its clearly say - models on foot\not mounted.

Devon Harmon
31-12-2008, 15:26
Looking on other models that get extra attacks, it usually either says so, or "additional handweapon" is said. Characters aswell buy "additional handweapon", not "handweapon".


I guess I'm just treying to give some meaning to the fact that the Torment Blade description states "Hand Weapon." As it has been pointed out many of the other Daemonic Gifts that are weapon do not indicate that they are hand weapons. Another example is the Staff of Change. This is listed as being a Hand Weapon.

I'll concede that 5 points seems rather cheap for bestowing +1 attack and giving a nifty ability, especially when measured against the "Many Armned Monstrosity" ability that gives +2 attacks for 50 points. But then whay does the Torment Blade specifically say that it is a "Hand Weapon." I don't know.

I was hoping this would have been clarified in the FAQ...

With respect to the "monsters not getting +1 attack from wielding two hand weapons because pg. 56 says "infantry": What about the Dragon Ogre Shaggoth? Clearly he is a monster (mounted on a 50mm base and way larger than an Ogre) who is on foot. In both the WoC and BoC books he can be equipped with an additional hand weapon, for +10 points and +4 points, respectively. Surely if he is equipped with this option he will get +1 attack, despite being a monstrous creature? If that is the case, then a DP would get +1 attack when being equipped with two hand weapons (assuming, for the sake of argument, the Torment Blade counts as a hand weapon).

Guanyin
31-12-2008, 21:54
it doesnt say Infantry. its clearly say - models on foot\not mounted.

I urge you to not be bullheaded and accually open the rulebook, where the Header of the relevant rule page 56 BRB state

"fighting with 2 hand weapons (infantry)."

direct quote.

Wapniak
01-01-2009, 11:15
With respect to the "monsters not getting +1 attack from wielding two hand weapons because pg. 56 says "infantry": What about the Dragon Ogre Shaggoth? Clearly he is a monster (mounted on a 50mm base and way larger than an Ogre) who is on foot. In both the WoC and BoC books he can be equipped with an additional hand weapon, for +10 points and +4 points, respectively. Surely if he is equipped with this option he will get +1 attack, despite being a monstrous creature? If that is the case, then a DP would get +1 attack when being equipped with two hand weapons (assuming, for the sake of argument, the Torment Blade counts as a hand weapon).

Yes that's true. I double checked the rules. Any model on foot with Torment Blade (Herald/ DP/ Keeper of Secrets) gets an additional attack for fighting with two hand weapons (the exception beeing mounted herald only). No doubts about that.


P.s.


(...)they get no +1 attack for the torment blade, not even heralds since it replaces their normal hand weapon like any other magic hand weapon.
you get no +1 attack from the sword of might even though you character already has another hand weapon, why should this be any different?(...)

By the way: If you give a model a magic weapon it dosen't lose his other mundane weapons. The model just has to use his magic weapon, but if the weapon has a "hand weapon" rule or a rule which includes the hand weapon rule (vide: beastmasters scourge) he can use it in addition to his mundane hand weapon thus gaining additional attack when on foot.

For example:

A) If you give a dreadlord on foot the 'Dagger of Hotek' he gets the Always strike special rule and gains an additional attack when fighting on foot for having two hand weapons.

B) If you give the Blood Knights Castellan the 'Sword of Might' he still has a lance, just can't use it. If by any means the sword is destroyed (via spell for example), the Castellan can revert to using his lance.

I hope I helped. ;)

isidril93
01-01-2009, 21:41
Yes that's true. I double checked the rules. Any model on foot with Torment Blade (Herald/ DP/ Keeper of Secrets) gets an additional attack for fighting with two hand weapons (the exception beeing mounted herald only). No doubts about that.
P.s.
By the way: If you give a model a magic weapon it dosen't lose his other mundane weapons. The model just has to use his magic weapon, but if the weapon has a "hand weapon" rule or a rule which includes the hand weapon rule (vide: beastmasters scourge) he can use it in addition to his mundane hand weapon thus gaining additional attack when on foot.
For example:
A) If you give a dreadlord on foot the 'Dagger of Hotek' he gets the Always strike special rule and gains an additional attack when fighting on foot for having two hand weapons.
B) If you give the Blood Knights Castellan the 'Sword of Might' he still has a lance, just can't use it. If by any means the sword is destroyed (via spell for example), the Castellan can revert to using his lance.

I hope I helped. ;)

but if im not mistaken it says that the dagger of hotek is an additional hand weapon. also, evne if the castellan has the sword of might he would get an extra attack as he either uses the lance OR the sword not both (omit the fact that he is mounted). so really the torment blade is replacing the hos claws, she uses that instead.

the thing is this is not 40k where two hand weapons atoumatically means additional hand weapons so +1 attack. in warhammer it means you can use either one or the other.

Wapniak
02-01-2009, 01:22
but if im not mistaken it says that the dagger of hotek is an additional hand weapon. also, evne if the castellan has the sword of might he would get an extra attack as he either uses the lance OR the sword not both (omit the fact that he is mounted). so really the torment blade is replacing the hos claws, she uses that instead (...).

Noowhere in the rules there's written that the Torment Blade replaces anything. Only if it would be explictly written it would. This is why I gave the B) example -> neither the magical sword dosen't replace the lance, nor the Torment Blade replaces the hand weapon. You just have to use a magical weapon if you have one (and the gift is not even a one). So nothing prevents you from using both.

The word "additional" is not part of any rule. It is just a description in the options' entry that clarifies things. The other example would be the Whip of Agony as it has just the Beastmasters scourge rule. If you still have any doubts and don't belive me, please check the rules for the beastmaster scourge weapon (page 58 DE armybook). The weapon has just a "hand weapon" rule, and both the mundane beastmaster scourge and magical Whip of Agony give you an additional attack when combined with mundane hand weapon when you're on foot. Otherwise the Hydra handlers would carry the beastmasters scourge alone. However they carry both the whip and a hand weapon thus have effective 3 attacks.

Unfortunately we must understand that the wording and templating is poorly written for the armybooks and is more often unclear than clear. The writers make an assuption that what they write is logical.

Again, please think about it. Why would they add the "hand weapon" to the weapon entry if it wouldn't mean anything? It would be illogical.

I hope that I persuaded You with my reasons.

P.s. I understand that there's a concern about, if it is fair to get +1A for 5 pts. But look... many characters have an option of buying an additional hand weapon for few points or a magical weapon which gives +2 Attack for circa 50 points (for example: skaven for 50, high elves for 40).

isidril93
03-01-2009, 19:10
it might not replace it, i got that wrong, but it does not add up to it.
im not sure anout the beastmaster's scourge but ithink it is mandatory that the all units have a hand weapon, for example even swordmasters have one. i know im being stubborn but i must admit this argument is quite interesting. it might not be replacing the claws (for the hos) but it is being used instead of. i know that there is the word hand weapon in the rule (dont know why). they are only able to use one weapon at a time. also if im not mistaken in the rulebook it says that if a character chooses a magical weapon he may not choose a mundane one, ill have to check.

Kalandros
03-01-2009, 19:22
People need to read the rules instead of assuming things...

Page 56 Close Combat Weapons

- Fighting with two hand weapons

There is nothing in there requiring "Additional Hand Weapon" to be THE 2nd Hand Weapon. Its just a description of the equipment, not a weapon with its own rule.

Beastmaster's Scourge is a Hand Weapon, any model already has a Hand Weapon
That is Two Hand Weapons per the rules, and Beastmasters of the War Hydra have 2A so in total, 3A.

A Keeper of Secrets has its Claws and stuff that counts as a Hand Weapon.. then buys Torment Blade which is described as a Hand Weapon.
Thats Two Hand Weapons as well, so 7A total.

For the Herald of Slaanesh and Keeper of Secrets - They are Chaos Gifts - they are not Magic Weapons and are not bound by the Magic Weapon rule that "you cannot use any other weapon while you have a magic weapon".

So, a Master (Dark Elf) with Whip of Agony (Counts as BEastmaster's Scourge which is a Hand Weapon) would benefit from the PArry Bonus but not from having a 2nd Hand Weapon.
While the ASF Dagger for Dark Elves, specifies a normal Weapon can be combined with it.

Kalec
04-01-2009, 05:11
You aren't seriously arguing that monsters don't get an extra attack for 2 hand weapons, are you? The shaggoth is crying in a corner someone, alone and forgotten.

Djekar
04-01-2009, 07:07
The shaggoth is crying in a corner someone, alone and forgotten.

This isn't entirely because of this debate though. He belongs in that darned corner.

You make a great point, however!

~Twist

Darth ryanus
05-01-2009, 09:11
simple answer is no you dont get an extra attack for the torment blade.

Every model that can use the torment blade (DP,KOS,HOS) already have multiple attacks and under weapons have the entry- Claws (hand weapon)
so
Claws=plural so you have already been given an extra attack for having multiple hand weapons
Hand weapons =so your claws are hand weapons and the torment blade is a hand weapon so by taking it you swap 1 hand weapon for another hand weapon=no extra attack unless you think buying the torment blade gives you an extra arm to wield it i cant see how you would get another attack.

isidril93
05-01-2009, 18:50
and darth ryanus is our winner

if it says axes that means 2, so claws means 2

Devon Harmon
05-01-2009, 23:43
So by Darth's logic, Horrors should have an extra attack on their profile, since they are equipped with Tentacles (hand weapon). The same could be said of Furies who are equipped with Fangs and talons (hand weapon).

Tentacles=plural so you have already been given an extra attack for having multiple hand weapons.

Fangs and talons=plural so you have already been given an extra attack for having multiple hand weapons.

isidril93
06-01-2009, 10:50
YES!!! no...

MrBigMr
06-01-2009, 11:42
I would agree that monsters and mounted models don't get the extra attack, but lets face it, the FAQ itself says that the model uses all the "weapon" gifts at once along with everything else it has. It even states that a GUO with a flail (stock weapon) and balesword gift has in combat a flail that autowounds and causes D6 wounds. So when you have a hand weapon (stock weapon) and a gift hand weapon with special abilities, do you not use them all at once, and as such get the extra attack for an infantry model as per rules?

As for the topic at hand, I ran an Exalted Daemon in the old SoC list and I run a DP in the current one. It's a theme choice and I'm not gonna bend over to GW's latest trend option. Mine is Undivide (though I play her as Slaaneshi, but paying 35pts. for the title of being Slaaneshi and nothing else, is a bit too much for me) and has Swirftness, Wings and Corona.