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Malorian
16-12-2008, 22:41
So I did a pre-game poll before and it seemed people had fun with it, so lets try it again.

Tomorrow I'll be up against the local dark elves and I promiced to use an army he hasn't played for a while and thus decided on bretonnians.


Hate filled his mind.

Lord Dantes knights were coming over the hill and their foe, the vile Dark Elves, were coming into view, and if there was one thing Dante couldn't stand it was those that would hide back with their crossbows and magic when there was honor to be won in combat.

Well he had brough his own mages with him to protect him knights, and it wouldn't be long before they would be crashing their lances against the weak elves.

His army paused for a second, giving praise to the lady, and then charged forward...


This will be my list:

(Lord Dante) Lord w/ silver lance, shield, virtue of the ideal, horse
(Lady Elisabeth)Prophetess lvl4, chalice of malfleur (heavens)
(Sir Patrick) Paladin *BSB* w/ horse, warbanner, virtue of duty
(Andrea) Damsel lvl 2 w/ horse, dispel scroll (life)
(Gayle) Damsel lvl 2 w/ horse, dispel scroll (life)
(Samantha) Damsel lvl 2 w/ dispel scroll (beasts)

9 KE w/ FC, errantry banner
8 KotR w/ FC
8 KotR w/ FC
8 KotR w/ FC
8 KotR w/ FC
21 skirmishing archers w/ villein

5 pegasus knights
9 questing knigts w/ FC

5 grail knights

Total: 2999

I know I could have more knights, but I want to keep the list from being boring.


Not too sure what his list will be... he's gone super magic heavy the last couple of times, and is he's liking hydras more and more, but he might change it up.


So there you have it. Place your bet and after my game tomorrow I'll post the battle report :)

Glorfindel
16-12-2008, 22:57
I vote for the dark elf player, because they're my favorites ;) though I know there's a big possibility you'll win.

Actually i hope he uses some close combat stuff too. Like a lord on a dragon :D would be epic fluffwise ... matchoff vs your lord ^^. Either that or an assassination :p

badgeraddict
16-12-2008, 23:13
These are my two favourite armies.

I think it will be a draw. :)

Hospitaler
17-12-2008, 02:06
Having never used DE, and quite often used Brets, I would have to say the Knights.
From a totally unbiased point of view :p

More practically, there is a large amount of anti-magic in this list, and still lots of knighty hurt, even though you havent gone 'all-out'!
Kudos if you win.

GuyLeCheval
17-12-2008, 12:18
If he's gonna magic heavy, you'll win. Just to many lances to him to face.
If he's gonna hydra heavy, you'll need to play tactically to win.
I've seen enough battles against him in your reports to be almost sure you win.

Besides, who's your general?
You lord can't be with that virtue, can he?

Malorian
17-12-2008, 13:29
Nope, the prophetess is :)

Briohmar
17-12-2008, 14:10
I voted against him last time, and lost, so I'll side with the Knights this time.

Draconian77
17-12-2008, 15:26
If he's gonna hydra heavy, you'll need to play tactically to win.


Hydra heavy isn't exceptional against Knights unless there are some nice pieces of terrain sitting in the centre of the board.

Now Assassin/flying monster heavy, that might be a tough fight.

SevenSins
17-12-2008, 22:14
Just to keep it open I made the cowardly vote of a draw, as draconian says elf build will have some say (obviously), you're an experienced general malorian so he's in for a fight no matter what.

Malorian
18-12-2008, 05:27
Ok, so as I write this there are 14 votes that I'll win, 12 that I'll lose, and 6 for a tie.

This was his list: (as best as I know)

Lvl 4 supreme sorceress w/ dagger and 2 power stones
Lvl 4 supreme sorceress w/ black staff and 2 power stones
Lvl 2 sorceress w/ 2 power stones
Lvl 2 sorceress w/ 2 power stones
Lvl 2 sorceress w/ 2 power stones
Assassin w/ extra hand weapon, rune of khaine, touch of death, black lotus

20 spearmen w/ full command
20 corsairs w/ full command
10 crossbowmen w/ shield
10 crossbowmen w/ shield
10 crossbowmen w/ shield
10 crossbowmen w/ shield

20 black guard w/ full command, kouran, ASF banner

Hydra
Hydra
2 RBTs


The board was 6X4 and there was a hill at the back of his deployment zone, a forest on either flank and some buildings in the back left of my deployment zone and also in the back right of his.

I deployed from left to right: grail knights, KE, KotR w/ BSB, KotR w/ damsel, KotR w/ Lord, KotR w/ damsel, questing knights, archers w/ prophetess and damsel, and the peg knights were behind the right trees.

He deployed from left to right: hydra, crossbowmen w/ mage, crossbowmen w/ mage, corsairs w/ staff lord, black guard, spearmen w/ dagger lord, crossbowmen w/ mage, hydra, and on the hill was the other unit of crossbowmen with a RBT on either side.

I prayed for the blessing and he took first turn.


Pre-game thoughts: Well I was glad to see no dragon and actually his list exactly like what I expected it to be: VERY magic heavy. I didn't know where that assassin was and that had me worried... I was sure he would have killing blow and my 234 point lord didn't feel all that lucky... Any any rate, the plan was to hit the black guard with as much as I can, grail knights get creamed while KE take out the left hydra and the questing knights deal with the right one. Then the peg knights help out where possible.


Turn 1 DE:

Line mainly moves up. On the left side the inner crossbowmen move up and the left unit shuffles behind them. The hydra on the right was careful to stay out of LOS of my peg knights. In his magic phase he kills 2 archers with chillwind and that's really it. I stop most of it and what does go through doesn't do any harm (I made my first three 6+ wards this turn!). In the shooting phase two grail knights go down as well as a KotR from the left and right unit.

Turn 1 Brets:

Knights move up while archers move back (scary hydra). Everything tries to set up to be about 14 inches from the front of his line while the questong knights wheel and aim at the right hydra, while the peg knights fly to their left and set up to either charge the hydra or the crossbowmen. In the magic phase I get off celestrial shield on the archers, a lightning bolt takes a wound off the right hydra, and beast cowers on the left hydra (no running into the trees for him!).

Turn 2 DE:

Only thing to move is the hydra that moves up right in front of the questing knights (it's at this point I realize that one failed terror could REALLY cause a LOT of panic...). In the magic phase I left chillwind through which does nothing to the KE and then his mage miscasts and the magic phase ends (!!!). In the shooting phase the hydra breath kills one of the right KotR, and two more grail knights go down (think I lost another knight somewhere but I'm not sure).

Turn 2 Brets:

I pass all 4 terror tests (thank god) and declare a ton of charges. The questing knight pass the fear test and charge the right hydra, the peg knights dodge the stand and shoot and hit the right crossbowmen, the rigth KotR unit charges the spearmen (at which point an assassin jumps out) while the other three nuits all charge the black guard, and the KE charge the left hydra. The last grail knight runs behind the left trees and the archers move up. Magic phase produces nothing. In combat the peg knights kill the mage and some crossbowmen and run them down (not off the board). The quesing knights do 3 wounds to the hydra and the hydra kills three of them, breaks and I run it down. The KE do two wounds to the hydra, take no losses (!!!) and run it down. This causes the front left crossbowmen unit to panic over the corsair unit which also panics (!!!). In the big combat my BSB and lord are both not in base to base, but after the black guard kill 3 of the center units knights I kill six in return (a champ and a regular knight wanted to attack Kouran but failed their test) and they are unbreakable. In the spearmen combat my champ makes a challange and is killed twice over by the assassin. I kill only a couple of spearmen and I break and am run down as the spearmen overrun into my lord's unit.

Turn 3 DE:

Crossbowmen and corsairs rally. In the magic phase the power stones come out and 5 KE are killed by black horror (I pass panic test). Luckily I stop the rest (2 scrolls) or the cast is 1 short of going off. Shooting only kills a single questing knight. In combat Kouran kills a knight but the rest of the black guard to nothing. the charging assassin kills 1 knight and the spearmen do nothing. My lord directs his attacks at the supreme sorceress (5 autohitting str 4 attacks) and I do a single wound (!!!) and I kill 4 black guard and Kouran (go champ!). The stubborn black guard hold but the spearmen break (I'm locked in combat and can't pursue).

Turn 3 Brets:

Peg knights charge the fleeing spearmen, catching them, overrunning into one of the left crossbowmen, who flee and get away, and my 20 inch move can still make it to the other crossbowmen so they flee too and get away. KE reform to face the fleeing crossbowmen and the questing knights move up to threaten either his hill or the black guard flank (Bretonnians don't know the meaning of overkill ;) ). Archers move up and the BSB and lord are moved over to be in base to base with the black guard. In the magic phase I get off rain lord on the right RBT, and all arrows miss. In combat more black guard are killed (about 6 left) but they still hold.

Turn 4 DE:

One crossbowmen unit rallies, but the other fails and runs into the KE. In the magic phase he casts black horror with an 18 and I stop it with a 19.

At this point he gives up.

Victory to the Bretonnians!


It had been a long time since he and his knights had taken to battle, so Lord Dante smiled even more when the Dark Elve army crumbles before him and fled the field.

Nothing was better for celebrating a victory than chasing after your fleeing foe and putting your lance through his back.

Good times... good times indeed...


Post-game thoughts: For the most part is went exactly as I had planned, and my task was made even easier by him missing an entire magic phase and my leadership tests all going my way. It's games like this that make up the tmies when this kind of list gets off a dozen black horrors and absolutes wipes out my army.

It was nice to use the brets again. I really would like to use them more, but I can't stand all the complaining. After this game I had to listen to how broken they were while I packed up, and it reminded me why I had to put these guys away and start ogres in the first place.

*Deep breath... hold in the urge to rant...*

So thanks for reading and I hope the betting part made up for the short report:D

darkelves99
18-12-2008, 07:33
good job to the bretonnians

Count Zero
18-12-2008, 10:16
Well done, that was a pretty comprehensive @ss whooping.

Got to say having quite a bit of experience of playing DE vs Brets there is no way i'd take a list like your opponent did. No mobility what so ever allows the Bret to pick and choose every single fight and a ranked infantry bock of DE is 8/10 times going to get broken by a charging lance, unless they are BG, are very lucky or have an assassin etc.

7th ed DE can beat Brets so they are no longer over-powered compared to DE, but you need a list that can take them on at their own game and not let them pick the fight. My friend is a very good a Bret player, but has yet to beat my 7th ed DE (and conversely i never beat him with my 6th ed DE)

Glorfindel
18-12-2008, 11:19
When I saw his list, I said ... DE lose ... How true it was. You can never win with such an army against a mobile combat driven army with decent magic defence. What he needed was chariots, cold one knights, executioners with a cauldron to make em stubborn and a dreadlord or at least a hero or two with hitting power, equipped with the sword that negates armor for example or the dagger of hotek and a strength potion. All those crossbowmen were useless, you can never shoot enough of those highly armored opponents down before they are upon you. Even those corsairs are pretty useless. Even with all that magic, you'd have 2 turn (mostly even one because most spells will not be in range first turn if you go first) and them it's over because your combat power is lacking to stand after a charge from those knights.

Count Zero
18-12-2008, 11:45
I agree Glor,

2 lvl4's, but neither mounted on a pegasus, at least with that she move around and harass, esp combined with a focus familiar.

he only had 3 combat blocks and you had 6 lances!

Malorian
18-12-2008, 13:12
Just to be clear, we don't design our armies to beat each other.

He had no idea which army I would be using (ok he knew it would either be brets or ogres) and I used a standard list.

SevenSins
18-12-2008, 13:22
Magic heavy often ends in win big/loose big it seems, oh well, well done Mal and bretonnians are tough, not broken ;)

Count Zero
18-12-2008, 14:11
He had no idea which army I would be using (ok he knew it would either be brets or ogres) and I used a standard list.

hmm, his army may have fared better vs ogres where that huge amount of shooting would be more dangerous.

to be fair I find Brets a hard army to play against if you are making an all-comers list as well.

Malorian
18-12-2008, 15:27
We were talking after the game about how he would have done a lot better with some throw away units like harpies, or even putting the crossbowmen in front and baiting with them.

If I were him I'd drop the second supreme sorceress, drop a mage, and add a combat noble, add two units of 5 harpies, and two chariots.

Count Zero
18-12-2008, 16:14
i think he could have done with a flying monster to be honest. something with good mobility and hitting power that can get round and behind the lances.

so much magic was over the top, as soon as you got into combat his mages abilities would be severely limited, and as happened with so many spells phase ending miscasts will occur.

Arguleon-veq
18-12-2008, 16:18
I would have thought Repeater Crossbows would be quite decent against Bretts to be honest.

1 Kill at long range.
2 Kills at short range.
1 Kill with Stand and Shoot.

I think thats a fairly decent return for the unit. Providing you do get those shots off, of course.

I think if anything the Hydra is the bad performer against Brets, 1-2 Wounds in the first round against static res of 3-4. 1 Kill in subsequent rounds.

An Assassin in a scouting Shade unit for March Blocking and Rending Star hurling would have been handy though.

Congrats on the win Malorian against a pretty tough Dark Elf list. I don't think Brets are over-powered, I just think some forces and builds have a very tough time dealing with them because of how unique they are [all cav with 2+/5++ saves]. I wouldn't say Dark Elves are one of those though, so a very good win.

Draconian77
19-12-2008, 16:46
Wow...

Magic is pretty worthless to the Druchii unless you combine it with mobility, sticking all those mages in RnF units is just asking to lose especially against Bretonnians.

RxBmen are quite good against Brets because they can cause a lot of damage with their new AP rule, but adding a 150pt+ mage to every unit means the investment will never make a worthwhile return.

Feefait
19-12-2008, 23:35
i am not so sure Bretts are broken, so much as when they win they win big. But the thing is they don't have much aside from the big, heavy hitting units that people fear. BUt it'sI really a one trick, all or nothing pony. Stop that charge and you win. When I play Bretts I always think the same thing, and think about how much trouble i have with them. But I actually don't think I've ever lost to them. Just get so demoralized at the losses form the charge I think I was devastated. Just forces me to take more care and play a bit differently, but I like that.
You did get pretty lucky on the magic and psych tests, but in my opinion you have o count on some of that going your way. I wondr at all the xbow men against such a heavily armored army. But again, general army not tailored ot beat bretts, then the selections make more sense.

Alathir
20-12-2008, 08:21
Well fought, noble paladin..

For the Lady!

I used to have to listen to a fair amount of complaining as well but with the advent of Vampires and Demons, my Bretonnians seem freed of all that nonsense.

Glorfindel
21-12-2008, 11:37
Well, I certainly won't say bretonnians are broken. I just tought, he knew he'd face bretonnians and that he should expect a lot of hard and fast cavalry, the list he used wasn't suited to fight an army like that. If he wanted to use a magic heavy army he should have at least used more marchblockers so he could have a turn or two of magic to weaken his enemies.

In this case, you had a lot of movement freedom to get your charges off, he needed some marchblockers and some units with high movement who'd force you to manoevre a lot more to get in the right position for your charges. For example, a bretonnian player wouldn't charge a unit if he knows the chances are big the unit will flee leaving him open for countercharges from for example chariots or cold one knights or executioners. You need to influence a bretonnian movement face as much as possible, not stand back and wait for him to charge, in the case of a dark elf that's like being a sitting duck :)

Draconian77
21-12-2008, 14:59
Case in point, mount all those magic users on Dark Pegasii.

Now that will really present problems to the Bretts.

Its also highly evil, very much in character with a Druchii army...:angel:

Orstein
22-12-2008, 16:54
Dark pegassii are no match for bretonnian pegasii. Ive been finding that ward saves and high armour make brets actually quite survivable against all but the anti armour magic. That coupled with magic resistance and a chalice actually makes us pretty survivable against magic heavy armies.

Not to mention the awsome turn 2 charges.

Well played. Glad to see you enjoying the noble bretonnians. I love mine to bits

zak
22-12-2008, 23:55
I wish I had seen the lists before I had voted. He had two turns to do as much damage as possible before he got over ran. He didn't do the damage, hence he lost. As said before bad army choice. Magic heavy rarely wins through against a mobile army as so many of the spells are useless as soon as you get into combat.

Multiple small warrior units would have been ideal as bait and march blockers.