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kormas
17-12-2008, 05:52
i have played undead for a very long time and have decided that i am sick of never haveing to take moral tests and have decided to try empire, mostly because they have low leadership and because i love the models.

i have absalutly no experiance at playing empire effectivly so the following list is made up of what i will hopefully be getting in the near future, all commants and critisisms are welcome.

LORD
General Franz=171
Armour of meteoric iron
Holy relic
Great weapon

HEROES
Capitan Martian=104
The silver horn
Full plate armour
Great weapon
BSB

Warrior priest wolfram=113
Heavy armour
Additional hand weapon
Sigil of sigmar

Warrior priest Valmir=148
Sword of battle
Enchanted shield
Heavy armour
Barded warhorse

CORE
20 swordsmen=145
gull command
detachments: 10 handgunners=80
5 free company=25

20 spearmen=120
full command
detachments: 10 crossbowmen=80
10 swordsmen=60

20 halberdiers=140
full command
shields
detachments: 10 swordsmen=60
10 spearmen=50

10 handgunners=80

20 flagellants=210
prophet of doom

SPECIAL
10 inner circle knights=330
full command
standard of arcane warding

5 pistoliers=97
musician

great cannon=100

RARE
Helblaster volley gun=115



this all comes to a little over 2000pts, but at my gc we dont mind that.
i have absalutly no idea on how this list will do on the field, i am hopefully going to sub a few battles and get some basic tactics but i would realy apreciate some help from the warseer comunity
thanks in advance:D

Nicha11
17-12-2008, 05:57
Ok i'm not a vet Empire player but I know a few things.

1) try to get some dispell scrolls, they can really save the day.
2) 1 unit of Flagellants may be taken as core if you have a warrior priest.
3) Halbediers are not as good as spearmen or Swordsmen.

But otherwise a strong but slow list with a big hammer:evilgrin:

kormas
17-12-2008, 06:05
woops, missed that rule, thanks Nicha11, fixed now

SamVimes
17-12-2008, 06:29
It's a good start. Since the Silver Horn is a bound spell, it isn't very good in a magic light army (which yours is). If you want to keep it, I'd suggest swapping one of your warrior priests with a a level 2 wizard with scrolls. Actually, I'd do that anyway. Your main infantry blocks should be 25 strong to make sure they make it to the enemy with max combat res. As they are now, one kill and they lose 1 point of static (bad for state-troops). For detachments, nine is good for the combat ones (in a 3X3 block) to take up a minimum amount of space and to ensure they are us-5 when they counter charge. For the shooty ones, only take 5. 10 is far too large (as they will take up way too much space). Halberdiers are only useful as detachments, and they still are not the best choice. Put all of your heroes on barded steeds to maximize their armor.

kormas
17-12-2008, 06:48
thaks for the advice, just out of curiosity, can you put mounted caharacters in infantry units?, i'll try to get up a redone list soon as possable

SamVimes
17-12-2008, 06:50
Yep, and it rocks because he counts as another guy in the second rank, so you relly only need 23 guys in any unit you plan on having a character in.

kormas
17-12-2008, 07:08
wow, i never new that that was legal, noone at my gc has ever done it.
taking into account all the advice that has come in here is a revised list, it is by no means my final list and any commants or help would be aprieciated.

LORD
General Franz=201
Armour of meteoric iron
Holy relic
Sword of battle
Barded warhorse

HEROES
Capitan Martian=116
The silver horn
Full plate armour
shield
BSB
Barded warhorse

Battle wizard wolfram=115
2 dispel scrolls

Warrior priest Valmir=148
Sword of battle
Enchanted shield
Heavy armour
Barded warhorse

CORE
30 swordsmen=200
full command
detachments: 5 handgunners=40
9 free company=45

25 spearmen=145
full command
detachments: 5 crossbowmen=40
9 swordsmen=54

25 swordsmen=175
full command
shields
Detachments: 9 swordsmen=54
9 spearmen=45

SPECIAL
10 inner circle knights=330
full command
standard of arcane warding

5 pistoliers=97
musician

great cannon=100

RARE
Helblaster volley gun=115

20 flagellants=210
prophet of doom

i dropped one unit of handgunners and fiddled with the unit sizes, the unit of 30 was because i had nothing better to spend it on. at the moment i am wondering how i going to set them up so that there is as many units in range of the general as possable, if anyone could suggest any suitable tactics for deployment that would be great:D
thanks in advance

SamVimes
17-12-2008, 07:18
I'd suggest getting rid of at least 2 knights, as well as the extra 5 swordsmen, plus a couple of points here and there (probably reducing the units you will have mounted characters in by two) to afford a unit of huntsmen. Scouting skirmishers are invaluable to control your enemies army.

kormas
17-12-2008, 07:31
just out of curiosity, what is the recomended size for a unit of huntsmen?

SamVimes
17-12-2008, 07:32
10, which also happens to be the minimum. Funny that ;)

kormas
17-12-2008, 08:02
lol:D

LORD
General Franz=201
Armour of meteoric iron
Holy relic
Sword of battle
Barded warhorse

HEROES
Capitan Martian=116
The silver horn
Full plate armour
shield
BSB
Barded warhorse

Battle wizard wolfram=115
2 dispel scrolls

Warrior priest Valmir=148
Sword of battle
Enchanted shield
Heavy armour
Barded warhorse

CORE
23swordsmen=163
full command
detachments: 5 handgunners=40
9 free company=45

25 spearmen=145
full command
detachments: 5 crossbowmen=40
9 swordsmen=54

23 swordsmen=163
full command
shields
Detachments: 9 swordsmen=54
9 spearmen=45

10 huntsmen=100

SPECIAL
10 inner circle knights=330
full command
standard of arcane warding

5 pistoliers=97
musician

great cannon=100

RARE
Helblaster volley gun=115

15 flagellants=160
Prophet of doom

i decided to drop some of the flaggelents insted of the knights, i want these guys to be as hard as possable. thanks for the advice so-far, it has been great.

ivrg
17-12-2008, 10:02
I would go for a arch lector instead of an ordinary general with the same equpiment. Two bounds on him and one bound on your other priest. Then use the ring that gives u the panic causing head of fire spell(don remeber the name). Upgrade wizard to lvl 2 if you can. Use 2 great cannons, because they are really good for stopping all big monsters and enemy warmachines etc. Imagine two of them firing at your varghulf?! I woul duse a minimum of 20 flagellants if i were to use them. I have also seen that pistoliers really rock. So maybe consider 2 of them. And makeing your knights ordinary knights instead, but that is just some speculation.

maze ironheart
17-12-2008, 11:02
I would say reduce the knights from 10 to 5 as ranking knights is a huge waste of points I tryed it when they see them they will shot magic and mane them.I would then say drop the helblaster for a second cannon or the hel storm as the hel blaster can't go one game without blowing up plus 2 cannons really hurt the enemy.I would drop the ether the captain or the worrior priest for a second wizard with the rod of power that is what I would do.I aggree with an arch lector instead of the general of the empire you could give him vanhortmanns speculum and armour of meteoric iron and drop the holy relic he has a bound spell to get a 4+ ward save instead use the points on something else.

Makarion
17-12-2008, 16:19
Your list (post #11) isn't a bad start. Some ideas to mull over, while you play a few games yourself - experience is by far the best teacher!

* It's a huge improvement to field the infantry in blocks of 25 and up. Swordsmen can survive at 25, but spears and halberds I'd not field in units under 30 (the latter I tend to not field at all, mind). Only use champions in infantry units with a character you need to protect from challenges, since they are too expensive otherwise - it's not like you actually kill things with Empire infantry.

* Spearmen make pretty lousy detachments. I'd stick with swordsmen (least CR due to wounds given up) or halberds (best chance to kill something yourself.

* With the Armour of Meteoric Iron, the General doesn't need a horse for his armoursave, and the mount costs more than the model it replaces. I agree, though, that the Arch Lector is more effective in most Empire armies, but that shouldn't stop you. A General with minimal gear can be a really cheap Ld boost, for those "horde" style armies out there.

* The BSB is worth gold, and only in all-out magic lists I don't bring it. Generally, he's preferable without a magic banner, although it's worth testing out the Griffon Standard at some point - preferably on a big, beefy unit of 30 swordsmen or so (5 wide, 6 deep). Remember, though, that with a magic banner your BSB won't have much in the way of defense (although full plate and a barded warhorse gives him a 2+ save). I'd stick with something like Shroud of Magnus on him normally.

* The Doomfire Ring is, as mentioned by others, a very good boost to your magic phase. The Ring of Volans is junk in comparison, since you may well end up with a useless spell, and it's one use only. The Silver Horn is good as well, but you really need to crank up your magic phase if you plan around using it.

* The Huntsmen are much maligned, and they are admittedly pretty crap for their cost; they don't even have the longbows from 6th edition anymore! I tend to replace them with a detachment of archers for one of my infantry blocks, deployed in a skirmish line in front of the unit. Moving up in turn one, they are just as good a marchblocker, cheaper, and they don't cause panic when they get invariably killed.

* A unit of flagellants is quite vulnerable when small, since they die so easily against shooting. Consider fielding them not, or in sizeable blocks (they make good anchors to hold a flank).

* Knights are, unsurprisingly, superb. A unit of 10 is a bit awkward though, since they lose their rank bonus so easily against a lucky arrow or somesuch. I tend to field them in one of a few ways:
- 5 (core) knights, musician. Dirt cheap, good flankers, and they can break small units nonetheless. Do not give them a standard under any circumstance! You must be willing to sacrifice them for them to be worthwhile.
- 5 IC knights, full command, Warbanner (or Arcane Warding, or Steel Standard), with a Warrior Priest. The character will negate the worst of the rubber lance syndrome. Kit caries, but try out Sword of Might (or Sigil of Sigmar, or Enchanted Shield) and Aldred's Casket at some point.
- 6 IC knights, musician, champion. Budget version of the above. Without hatred, I feel they fluff their rolls too often to risk the loss of a standard.
- There's a mad last option: 10 IC knights, full command, a magical banner, warrior priest, Templar Grand Master (or Kurt Helborg!). Immensely expensive, but with some nice MR on the unit (Arcane Warding or Shroud) it's quite impressive, really. Not as efficient as multiple units of 5-6 knights, but I don't always care to be efficient :).
Being 6 wide, they can also suffer a casualty before losing their rank, and they actually might outnumber once in a while. Having said that, I still think the Banner of the Daemonslayer is junk.

* On a final note: Van Horstmann's Speculum (VHS) is generally considered our best magic item, and it rightfully finds it's way into almost every list - even if it's a bit predictable. It can be very nice on a warrior priest or arch lector, especially. The Rod of Power is probably my second favourite; it combines well with a powerstone (but note that you need a second wizard for any scrolls you'd like , if you use the RoP).

kormas
21-12-2008, 06:05
thanks for the replies so far, they have all been helpfull, special thanks to Makarion for bringing some brillient advice.

so, after looking at all the advice i have decided to change my list rather dramaticaly.

LORDS
Arch Lector Franz=195
Van horstmannís speculum
Armour of meteoric iron
Sword of might

HEROES
Capitan theodric=97
BSB
Full plate armour
Barded warhorse

Warrior priest Fredric=138
Doomfire ring
Barded warhorse
Heavy armour

Battle wizard jakob=150
Level 2
Rod of power
Power stone

CORE
30 swordsmen=205
full command
-14 archers=122
-9 halberdiers=45

30 spearmen=162
standard, musician
-5 free company=25
-9 swordsmen=54

5 knights=123
musician

30 swordsmen=195
musician, standard
-5 handgunners=40
-5 crossbowmen=40

5 knights=123
musician

SPECIAL
5 pistoliers=97
musician

cannon=100

cannon=100


i have dropped a few units and replaced the general with an arch lector, hopefully he will prove his worth, i have also traded out the inner circle knights in favour of 2 units of expendable flankers, i have dropped the huntsmen in favour of 14 archers, mostly because i had a few spare points and they should provide a good screen fot my generals unit, more comments and critisisms would be great.
thanks in advance:D

Sidorio
23-12-2008, 08:10
you can test the list on me at some point, just get me round. looks like good fun to play.

too the important stuff; the list looks nice, those big units will be liquid gold for you as they'll last a little longer. the bound items will help alot with your magic phase. the arch lector makes a nice addition and his damned speculem will make challenges hell as my chaos lord is so much better than him. personally, i'd take outriders over pistolliers anyday but as you've already argued that with me, we'll not get onto it. your knights as flank protectors/flankers will be a pest for most other light flanking units out there, though beware of those heavier ones. your cannons should help a bit with dealing with other nasties on the field, also maybe a mortar, i don't know the general opinion of them, but i like them.

it's a nice change too see you moving away from the undead, your finally going up in the world, from Tomb Kings to Vampire Counts to the Empire. for the first time in a long time we can make you run and weep in agony as your prized units legit in fear as you fail leadership tests in the fashion i've seen you do ever so often. actually now i think of it, maybe an unbreakable unit would help you out too.

best of luck with your frail little manlings.

maze ironheart
23-12-2008, 09:30
Very good but one thing I would give the arch leactor a great weapon you got the 1+ armour save why not go for 2+ strength.

sniperjolly
23-12-2008, 18:53
I would definatly consider taking a magic standard on the BSB. If your club takes alot of fear causing armys, try the Imperial banner, rereolling all psychology tests will make your line as stable as a dwarf's. The GW is a good idea, because I 4 really isn't something that you should spend massive amounts of points trying to preserve.

Rare choices? In bumping this list to 2250, I would add 2 helstorms. My list is missing out on some knights because of those things, but I still take them in 2000 points. Have you ever seen an entire unit of black orcs evaporate into thin air? Swordmasters? Hitting with them is really hard, but you don't have to be a really great guesser, just point at a high traffic area and let fly. You probably shoulden't have tham in a 2000 point list though...

Walls
23-12-2008, 19:00
My turn?

First of all, specifically from your list... your arch lector doesn't need the Speculum. He's tough as nails as is. If you REALLY want it on your list, give it to a wizard. Watch people cry when your 1st level wizard kills their heroes.

Most importantly, IMO, figure out a theme for your army. Figure out the units you want to use. You can lose and still have plenty of fun if you like the army.

For example, I was playing a non cavalry army. Then I had a themed army: led by an adventuring group (used captain, wizard, priest, etc and had them represented by not normal models), local militia, mercenaries and zealots rally to their cause! Even Stompy, a giant they had rescued, joined in! Basically had a bunch of spearmen to represent some town militia, free company, some huntsman, flaggelants and a giant. Was tough to play but it had a ton of character.

Once you know your theme and favorite units it is easy as heck to make a list. As well, don't feel you need to get locked into one list. Try your first list, then try your second, then try your third. Try them against the same enemy even. Find a friend willing to let you try stuff out. I am playing vampires and that's what I am doing. It works brilliantly, allowing you to see what works in situations and not. Experience trumps a list!

sniperjolly
23-12-2008, 19:15
tough as nails? he only has 2 attacks! str and T 4 are nice and all, but he has the same stats as a regular preist and an extra wound.

Walls
23-12-2008, 21:42
I think you made your point. :)

Toughness is more then stats!

kormas
23-12-2008, 22:24
thanks for all the advice so far, it has been great, keep it coming.
just one question, if you give the BSB a magic banner does it lose the orrigional bonus or is it cumiltive?? caus i really need the reroll break tests because my luck with leadership tests is abismal, it was one of the reasons that i turned to undead

Walls
24-12-2008, 00:23
You still get the +1 CR and the reroll for the BSB. A good plan, especially in, for example, a block of swordsmen is to give him the Warbanner. Cheap and gives him a further +1 CR.

I pretty much don't field a BSB without it no matter the army and I pretty much always field a BSB.

Makarion
24-12-2008, 12:10
It's great to have a magic banner in a unit, but you don't always need a BSB for that! Personally, I think the Imperial Banner is hugely overrated, since it's almost guaranteed that the BSB-with-banner won't survive more than maybe two rounds of combat - after which that very expensive banner, and 100 bonus VP, are lost. Me, I stick to the Gryphon Banner if I must take a magical one over 50 points, and only against less-experienced opponents. It's just handing out free points otherwise.