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Once Bitten
17-12-2008, 13:09
A question arose in a game yesterday ...

There was a 3-wide unit of ogres, with a character being the right-most model. I had a 7-wide unit of white lions with a unit champion. There was a challenge. I had some models that were in the combat UNTIL the challenge, but since they were only in b-t-b contact with the ogre character, they were deemed to be out of combat.

Is that right? Can the challenge effectively move models out of combat?

Atrahasis
17-12-2008, 13:12
Yes - the challenge rules expressly cover this situation.

Rooze
17-12-2008, 14:37
Did you maximize during your/ your opponent's movement phase? I find it weird (though not unthinkable) that if both units contain more than one model is connected ONLY by one!
Furthermore: is it not so that both characters are still part of the unit, although fighting apart, and thus the units are still locked?

Gharof von Carstein
17-12-2008, 14:45
yes it can and no it cant, depends on the situation. the rules specifically state that the characters need to be placed in base to base contact. how you do this is up to you and your opponent. its possible that when you place a character in base to base contact with another character (or they already are in which case you dont get to move them) that a rank and file trooper that can only hit the character now cant hit seeing as his only legal target is the character he is in contact with.

how do you solve this? place characters in base to base contact in such a way that the rank and file move over, this is true with what a challenge in essence is. namely that the two characters call each other out, walk into the open to meet each other and do one on one combat. it doesnt say so in the rulebook but you could shift your rank and filers in such a way that the characters end up facing each other and the rank and filers end up facing each other (put both characters on the outer corners of the unit facing each other so the rest of the rank and file face each other, while keeping your rank intact). another solution is to handle the combat of the challenge first, it isnt stated when this should happen in the rules (although there is a mention that the troops look on at the combat in awe and root for their champion, which you could read as "do the challenge first, than the rest of the combat") if you do the challenge first however and your champion dies, the rank and filers can now hit the character as the challenge is over.

to reply more on the above post. yes the characters/champions remain a part of the unit, moving them out of the units to do combat would be illogical. however it doesnt say anywhere in the rules that when you place the challengers in base to base contact, i dont get to replace the open slot of my character with a rank and filer to keep my ranks intact. it sounds obvious to me that rank and file troopers move over to let there character through when he has called someone out or is being called out.

i hope this helps some.

Once Bitten
17-12-2008, 14:46
Some of my models were out of b-t-b contact because my base sizes are so small compared to his huge ogre size bases. My champion was barely touching one side of his base - and since he was on the end of his row, all my models on that side of my champion were taken out of combat.

That being said ... it is, in fact, explicitly stated in the BRB that challenges can take other models out of combat. Weird.

Thanks for the feedback.

orkz222
17-12-2008, 14:48
hmmm you should maximize during the 1st charge move... (bringing all ogres into b-t-b with your white lions)

but let say if only 1 ogre character charge your white lions and your champ accept challenge then the 6 other white lions cant strike the lone ogre character as challenge effectively move models out of combat as stated in the big red bk

Gharof von Carstein
17-12-2008, 14:52
in the last case its due to the fact that in the spirit of honor the only ones doing the mortal kombat are characters. the rest just look in awe. if your character dies in the challenge and your rank and filers havent gotten their attacks yet, you still get to attack the winning character. this can be explained as the fact that due to the death of their champion the rank and filers are outraged and poor on the enemy.

orkz222
17-12-2008, 14:55
if your character dies in the challenge and your rank and filers havent gotten their attacks yet, you still get to attack the winning character.

page? :confused:

Gharof von Carstein
17-12-2008, 14:57
its logical really. in the challenge part of the rulebook it says nowhere in what order the challenge must play out. so basically you do the challenge first. lets say your champ dies during that challenge. challenge is than over and the rule that you dont get to attack the character anymore doesnt apply. so it stands to reason that the rank and filers get to attack the character after the challenge has been met and has been ended.

orkz222
17-12-2008, 15:12
Nice explaination there :) I was trying to find the actual wording in the big red book since my opponents like to refer to the red book when a rule arguement come up during a game

Cheeko
17-12-2008, 15:30
[/QUOTE]it doesnt say so in the rulebook but you could shift your rank and filers in such a way that the characters end up facing each other and the rank and filers end up facing each other (put both characters on the outer corners of the unit facing each other so the rest of the rank and file face each other, while keeping your rank intact)[/QUOTE]

yeah i think thats the best way 2 do it (well thats the way me and my mates play)

EvC
17-12-2008, 15:55
Nah that's not right Gharof. It says as clear as day that in a challenge those two models will only fight each other during that round of combat. So you can't then jump on the guy who killed your character in a challenge... not until the next round of combat :)

orkz222
17-12-2008, 16:06
Hmmm that how my grp plays for challenge, normal guys cant hit the enemy character in the same rnd their own character is killed.

I was wondering if my grp had been playing wrong since 6th ed, was going to ask my grp rule lawyers regarding this in up-coming game.

Necromancy Black
17-12-2008, 21:51
Agreed, no other model may attack models that participate in a challange in that round of combat. The rules says:

"When Combat is worked out, these two models will fight together. No other models may attack them or thier mount, even if their bases are touching."

When combat is worked out would aplly to the whole combat in question (not the entire round of combat). This would mean if their are multiple combats and a surviving character from a challange overuns into a combat not yet fought, he can attack/be attacked as normal, as well as accept/issue/refuse any new challanges for that combat.

Also, who issued the challange? The rules state that it is the model that accecpted the challange that must move to be in base to base contact with the other model. Only when this is not possible does the model that issued the challange have to move.

Chicago Slim
17-12-2008, 23:15
Yeah, what Gharof suggests is what's sometimes known as "an Irish duel"-- the winner of the one-on-one duel will now be jumped by all the friends and cousins of the loser... :P

Warhammer, however, limits challenges to more, uh, traditional rules: no piling onto the winner until at least the next round of combat.

Condottiere
18-12-2008, 04:20
That must be some form of discrimination then.

"It's because I'm Irish; you're only jumping on me in the same round because I'm Irish."

Rooze
18-12-2008, 07:39
What you actually do (after declaring challenges) first in a phase of CC- rules lawyer style - is determine what models get to fight, en who they will be fighting. After that, there is no changing that - so you cannot say: "well, my char has knicked yours off, so your infantry now has the chance to bully mine.". In the start you should have figured that those infantry either attacked the other unit, or not at all (or other options). There is no "IF - THEN" option!