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slingersam
17-12-2008, 14:42
Just wondering is it a good idea to max
out on reaper bolt throwers, and just keep
them in a straight line, with an arch mage,
a couple spear elf blocks and swordmasters
to cover the spear blocks

Edit: the bolt throwers will either harass
with thier 6 str 4 shots or pick out heros
with thier single shot

PeG
17-12-2008, 15:38
Depends on how you define a good idea. By my definition a good idea is something that will result in a game that is fun for both players and I have difficulties seeing that this idea would be good by that definition.

If you define a good idea by the probability that your list will win combats I think that this list should beat monster heavy lists but will suffer against lists that either have methods of removing the bolt throwers or have sufficient model counts to soak up the losses.

Draconian77
17-12-2008, 16:03
If your playing the Asur then its "Repeater" not "Reaper" :angel:

Even if you take 4 don't depoy them in a straight line...Allows flanking units to roll them up if they reach your lines.

Bolt Throwers are great against some lists and pointless against others.
I would also argue that they are about 20pts too expensive for what they normally achieve, however the more you take the less this matters as concentrated fire will often achieve more than sporadic shooting.

FunkyRatDemon
17-12-2008, 17:17
Personally I see Great Eagles mixed in as well, no need to max

Dooks Dizzo
17-12-2008, 17:28
Dark Elves use Reapers :)

Guy Fawkes
17-12-2008, 20:50
If you mean max out with 6 Repeaters in 2k, I think this is a bad idea. You get a lot of shots, and those shots are probably better, longer ranged, more powerful, and more versatile than archers, but 600 points is a lot for shooting. It's an all-or-nothing approach, because fliers, scouts, and the like will easily gobble down a few elves without something to guard the Bolt throwers. At 100 points, it's quite lucrative to ignore your whole army and just kill the Bolt Throwers with shooting, fliers, or scouts. Then the enemy can use points denial and claim objectives easily for the win. Besides, if they knock out a bunch of bolt throwers (As VC I can bring in 5 wolves for 40 points that will tie up a bolt thrower the whole game and can auto-break you if you don't win combat every turn for the rest of the game. Even if you kill one a turn, you'll spend the whole game not firing and when you win everything will be in combat. I can also buy fliers, raise zombies, use scouting Vampires, etc...Other armies have similar options), your whole strategy is dead because you can't just sit around anymore. Against other gunlines, your army simply can't muster the firepower and will be forced to advance or perish. It's not the best strategy, and likely won't make for fun games.

That said, Repeater Bolt Throwers are great, but spending 30% of your army on them in 2k? Maybe not the best idea.

Condottiere
17-12-2008, 21:32
How do you get 6 RBTs in a 2K list?

slingersam
17-12-2008, 23:29
just thought that the cannons would be able to weaken blocks of troops were the spear elfs would finish them off, along with the swordmasters, also calvary heavy armies will be taking dmg by the mouth full. Btw the spearelves and theswordmasters will be advancing.As for flanks what should I do with them or how would i handle them.

Guy Fawkes
18-12-2008, 02:36
How do you get 6 RBTs in a 2K list?

Not sure if I'm entirely right, but I believe RBTs are 2-for-1 rare choices and High Elves get an extra rare slot.

Lord Dan
18-12-2008, 02:43
Not sure if I'm entirely right, but I believe RBTs are 2-for-1 rare choices and High Elves get an extra rare slot.

I mean no disrespect but I admit I did chuckle at the fact that you combined both the old and new rules.

Old rule: 2 rare slotes, bolt throwers 2 for 1.

New rule: 4 rare slots, bolt throwers 1 for 1.

theunwantedbeing
18-12-2008, 02:47
4 rare at 2k, bolt throwers are a single rare choice each.

The 2 for 1 was dropped by letting them get more rare slots.
So the maximum is 4 (well 5 if you include either the moonbow..Alith Anar is a lord right?, or the bow of the seafarer).

I'de advise not using the single bolt to pick out hero's.
Hero's on foot on their own that is....-1 to hit means you'll often just miss.

El Haroldo
18-12-2008, 02:54
It's not a good idea.

You'll become, 'the 4 bolt thrower guy'. You'll win some games, you'll lose some games, but the outcome will hinge on how many turns of solid shooting you can churn out before the enemy get across the board.

1 blot thrower per 1k is plenty good.

darkelves99
18-12-2008, 02:57
well its always nice to go with alot of bolt throwers i would use either bolt throwers or archers.

Preacher
18-12-2008, 02:59
I'm just starting High Elves now and at 2k (for tournys) I am planning on taking 4 of them. I know maxing out might not be the best idea, but I am going with a shooty, magic heavy list for the next tourny(read: Teclis). I am really just hoping they can strip a rank here and there before Dragon Princes and Chariots get into range to charge. If they can take out any monsters and or fast cav or fast moving units, all the better.

Guy Fawkes
18-12-2008, 03:49
I mean no disrespect but I admit I did chuckle at the fact that you combined both the old and new rules.

Old rule: 2 rare slotes, bolt throwers 2 for 1.

New rule: 4 rare slots, bolt throwers 1 for 1.

Thanks for the correction. As you can see, I don't play High Elves myself and nobody has ever played more than 2 Bolt Throwers against me at 2k. Thanks for clarifying things for me. And glad I provided a laugh too. :D

Lord Dan
18-12-2008, 06:41
Thanks for clarifying things for me. And glad I provided a laugh too. :D

No problem at all. Please also bear in mind I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at the potential for 8 bolt throwers in a 2K list with the combined old and new rules.

...I don't know why I'm laughing, as it's not nearly as funny as it is terrifying.

Djekar
18-12-2008, 06:53
I don't know about terrifying Lord Dan, I mean it would still be 800 points. That's quite a chunk for shooting out of a 2k list - and they probably wouldn't be well supported. That being said, you'd have to have some mighty fine screen for Cavalry at that point, either that or just take the cav knowing that they'd soak up the casualties.

~Hedges

AMWOOD co
18-12-2008, 10:31
That being said, you'd have to have some mighty fine screen for Cavalry at that point, either that or just take the cav knowing that they'd soak up the casualties.

~Hedges

Really? I use repeaters against cavalry primarily. Heavy cavalry get the 1 shot in the side treatment (except Brets who take it head on) and Fast cavalry get the 6 double range handguns with BS4.

As for using Teclis, try using fire magic with him and 2 Bolt Throwers. Add this to one or two units of archers and maybe a unit of shadow warriors for harassment and you can dish out a great deal of damage before the enemy meets your spearline. I'll keep it general, as I'm not trying to write your list here, but I've seen Teclis destroy massive numbers of things with the fire list.

Lord Khabal
18-12-2008, 10:36
you should use an eagle to march block...

slingersam
19-12-2008, 05:04
Sorry new to fantasy is march block were you put a unit near another unit and have them go at regular speed.
And if the bolt thrower isnt effective what should i take instead. Since I can only take 4 in 2000 points
what should i take instead for 400 points.

Djekar
19-12-2008, 05:25
AMWOOD: I was saying that when facing 8 Bolt Thowers one would have to have lots of Cav Screens, not that the army with the BT's needed them. Sorry for the confusion.

Slinger: You are right, marchblocking is where you position a unit behind/beside multiple units in order to keep them from moving at double speed. 2 Bolt Throwers are usually seen as plenty (I think), and the other 2 slots are used for Great Eagles to use for Marchblocking, or Mage hunting, or redirecting... or you know, all sorts of things. Hope that helps a bit.

~Roses

Jericho
19-12-2008, 08:13
I don't think that taking more than 4 is worth the points, you're sacrificing a ton of mobility and close combat prowess to take so many bolt throwers. Not to mention burning up all your Rare slots. Eagles are fantastic to have, and even 1-2 of them can slow down an opponent long enough for your 4 bolt throwers to wreak some serious havoc.

Also: You cannot hero-snipe with bolt throwers. Cannons are the only thing that can do that. Look up the rules for bolt throwers, it is quite specific about targetting individual models within units. It can only be done under seriously limited circumstances.

Admiral Samuel Eden
19-12-2008, 08:41
I personally don't rate the Repeater Bolt Thrower. 2 of them is sensible as it allows your weak elves to kill monsters and makes bretonnian lance formations think twice, putting them on a flank helps. More than this and you are wasting points, especially since eagles are so good.

Nekrodamus
19-12-2008, 09:26
Do you remember the DE City Guard list? Played it once and of course with 8 RBTs at our local (everything goes and is used, but lord level SC) 2,500 points tourney: Extremely effective and worth the 800 points, alone the psycholocial effect was amazing. Of course this is 'feast or famine' at it's best (I was just lucky to meet no magic heavy list, if you remember just one small mage was allowed) and some people will call it boring, but there we fight for the win, allthough in a very friendly atmosphere.

Back to the topic I would say, that 2 or 4 depends on the game / event. For tournaments 4 RBTs ARE effective, 2 + a Hydra are neither less effective nor less evil, 2 + 2 DoW cannons (HE) can be a real alternative (see above) but in a 'nice' game you shouldn't use more than one rare slot (2 for HE) at all.

And it's never a good idea to have all war machines close together. Spreading them increases the risc to loose some of them but decreases the risc to loose them all and offers flank shots more often.

PS: Eagles? Never!

slingersam
19-12-2008, 09:27
Ok 2 bolt throwers and 2 eagles? Or just 1 eagle and use the extra points to get maybe a small squad of archers or is the str 3 not worth it.

Grey Mage
19-12-2008, 09:35
I cant see the point in eagles... everything they can do Shadow warriors can do. Unless your playing rather small points... even then, they simply die to quickly.

theunwantedbeing
19-12-2008, 09:56
I'de be inclined to take 3 bolt throwers and 1 eagle at 2k for a High elf army.
Simply as you often dont need many eagles so 1 is plenty, and 3 bolt throwers combined with curse of arrow attraction is really very powerful.
18 st4 shot's hitting on 3's/4's (re-rolling) and then wounding on 3's tends to cripple enemy infantry unit's a lot, making them incredibly easy to defeat with your normal troops.

I'm highly tempted to swap out my DE crossbowmen unit's for a couple of bolt throwers, simply as my crossbowmen lack the range to be of much use early on in the game, a couple of bolt throwers would solve that problem.
With a HE army it's less easy to do that as your likely to have taken small archer unit's as your only core, so unless you have other unit's to fulfill the core allowance it's not as easy a swap as with dark elves.

Preacher
19-12-2008, 15:02
Hmmm...you've raised an intersting option unwanted.

Perhaps taking 3 bolt throwers and 1 Eagle would be enough. I am currently think of running 4 throwers 2 units of 10 archers and Teclis...for a tourny.

But 3 Throwers, 20 Archers and Teclis should be enough shooting to make the enemy think twice and the eagle lets me get some march blocking and redirecting done with my Dragon Princes.

I didn't even think about 3 and 1. I keep forgetting its 2 for 1 rare choice but they dont have to be the same...new to High Elves.

Thanks.

FurryMiguell
19-12-2008, 15:09
NO! I wont bother explaining why, I have done that so many times Im sick of it! A thread almost identical to this has already been discused btw...

Dragon Prince of Caledor
19-12-2008, 15:42
It's not a good idea.

You'll become, 'the 4 bolt thrower guy'. You'll win some games, you'll lose some games, but the outcome will hinge on how many turns of solid shooting you can churn out before the enemy get across the board.

1 blot thrower per 1k is plenty good.


The four bolt thrower guy quote says it all :) I have never used more than two. Not my style. It will make you a lot of enemies. Unless they can fly, scout, or shoot well.

slingersam
19-12-2008, 21:06
Ok im gonna go with 3 bolt throwers 1 eagle, my core is spearmen so thats no problem. Ive never done a march block before but I dont think it will be 2 difficult 2 do, Anyway I can always use the eagle as a rear flanker if i have 2.

Jericho
20-12-2008, 12:18
One of the biggest uses of War Eagles is also to redirect chargers. If someone takes the bait, then make sure your eagle is angled off so that he'll pursue/overrun into a bad position and/or expose his flanks to your army. Eagles are also great for baiting frenzied troops of course!

They are easy to use, but can take a bit of finesse to really get the absolute most out of them.

slingersam
20-12-2008, 20:53
So eagles can only be used as a distraction, if they get into close combat can they do some dmg or no. Also can you shoot your own guys with the bolt throwers (u guessed wrong or it bounces into them).