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Walls
17-12-2008, 20:20
Technically you can join units with a Necromancer on a corpse cart. That's no problem. My questions are...

Do the ghouls in the front rank plus the corpse cart plus the necromancer all get attacks to the front?

How many in the front rank does the cart base count as? If I rank them as five around and behind are they all counted as full ranks (so max 3 obviously)?

What's the unit strength on a corpse cart? It counts as a monster so... 1 + 1 for the necromancer?

Thanks in advance. It's such an amazing model I would hate to not use it. The times I have it seems to get picked off when riding around on it's own. It's kinda fragile afterall.

Oberon
17-12-2008, 20:29
US3 as its wounds are 3, plus the necromancer 1, so four in total.
There are no rules regarding bigger bases in a unit, only things we have are the rules of screaming bell and slann, they fill the unit up the same the base of the model in question does. I would use those for the cart too. And of course all models in the front rank can attack, as per the normal rules.

Lord Zarkov
17-12-2008, 20:33
Corpse cart has a unit strength = wounds (as a monster) (so 3+1 IIRC)

In the front rank it counts as 1 model by RAW.

Any ghouls in btb with the enemy get to attack. If the cart is in btb both it and the necromancer get to attack as per normal ridden mosters.

And oddly it also gets look out sir since the total US of 4.

Necromancy Black
17-12-2008, 20:40
If you want to advoid losing you ranks either make sure you have 5 gouls per rank or 4 per rank.

I'm not sure which is the best way to go. 5 Ghouls per rank will definitly give you the rnak bonus. 4 per rank I don't know. There are definitly 5 models in the from rank, but there are no rules or guidlines about if the corpsecart counts a a model in any other ranks. My advice would be go with 5 wide in ghouls then add the cart to that.

Walls
17-12-2008, 20:52
Excellent! Thanks muchly for the quick responses. I may try this one.

Fellblade
17-12-2008, 20:58
The corpse cart counts as one model in each rank it occupies when counting.
For example, to get rank your rank bonus you'd need to set it up like this:

XXGGGG
XXGGGG
XXGGGG
XXGGGG
GGGGGG

X being the corse cart, Gs being the ghouls.

Neckutter
18-12-2008, 04:57
that is incorrect fellblade.

GT rulings coincide with what the rulesboys say, and they say to do this:

XXGGGG
XX
XX
XX
GGGGGG
GGGGGG
GGGGGG

also this goes for chaos mount that are on 50mm bases as well, like the palanquin of nurgle. you haveta have the spaces of nothingness. it looks stupid, but there you go.

Necromancy Black
18-12-2008, 05:01
Couldn't you do this:

XXgggg
XX
XX
XX
ggggg
ggggg
ggggg

That's the same number of models in each rank (5). The rules only says each ranks needs to have the same number of models, not that they have to take up the same amount of space.
It will create som auquid combat. And how are you mean to treat flank and rear chargers? It would be better to do this:

XXggggg
XXggggg
XXggggg
XXggggg

Still, the overall result isn't exactly perfect :(

Neckutter
18-12-2008, 05:13
im just passing on what they told me. it isnt MY ruling. i asked this question in regard to the palanquin and they explained to me that i would have 5 "models" in the front rank, and 6 models in the 2nd,3rd and so on ranks.

Walls
18-12-2008, 05:18
I don't get why you'd have to have 6.

Fellblade
18-12-2008, 06:28
Couldn't you do this:

XXgggg
XX
XX
XX
ggggg
ggggg
ggggg


No. You don't rank up empire like:

HSSSS
H
SSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS

Where H is the horse being ridden by a hero and S are swordsmen. This is the correct way:
HSSSS <--- 5 models
HSSSS <--- 5 models (note: one is duplicated)
SSSSS <--- 5 models
SSSSS <--- 5 models

The corpse cart (or another ridden monster) is larger, but its still only a single model. (c= corpse cart, S skeleton)
CCSSS <--- 4 models
CCSSS
CCSSS
CCSSS
SSSSS <--- 5 models, first complete rank.

In fact, looking at the rulebook(pg6) the above probably isn't a valid formation because the ranks do not contain equal numbers of models... it would probably need to look something like this:
SSSSCC
SSSSCC
SSSSCC
SSSSCC
SSSSS
SSSSS
...to be a valid formation. The skaven screaming bell appears to be the exception to this because the army book specifically covers how it interacts with units and how many models it displaces.

Fellblade
18-12-2008, 06:31
im just passing on what they told me. it isnt MY ruling. i asked this question in regard to the palanquin and they explained to me that i would have 5 "models" in the front rank, and 6 models in the 2nd,3rd and so on ranks.

pg6 of the rulebook forbids non-rear ranks from having unequal numbers of models.


As far as possible, the unit always has the same number of models in each ranks and, where not possible, it is always the rear rank that is left short

Walls
18-12-2008, 07:07
Couldn't you have the cart and 3 guys in each rank?

Condottiere
18-12-2008, 07:14
Sure, but no rank bonus. Unless it's stated otherwise, always assume that a miniature qualifies as only one model.

You can always make a house rule regarding the size/models, our group does.

devolutionary
18-12-2008, 07:30
No. You don't rank up empire like:

HSSSS
H
SSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS

Where H is the horse being ridden by a hero and S are swordsmen. This is the correct way:
HSSSS <--- 5 models
HSSSS <--- 5 models (note: one is duplicated)
SSSSS <--- 5 models
SSSSS <--- 5 models


Can you please cite where you are getting this second diagram from?

nosferatu1001
18-12-2008, 13:28
fellblade - While that would be correct in 6th Ed using the 2004 Chronicles, it is most definitely not the correct way in 7th Ed.

7th Ed is explicit that you count the number of MODELS in each rank, and it does not give you permission to count a model twice (or more) for sucessive ranks, regardless of how much "space" it takes up. While specific armybooks do allow you to do this in certain cases, they are in general 6th ed (lizards and skaven) and the exception, not the rule.

This makes the diagram with Hero and Swordsman incorrect, as you cannot duplicate the model - if nothing says you can, you cannot.

Reinnon
18-12-2008, 14:37
The club where i play has houseruled it that the corpse cart ranks up like this:

ggggcc
ggggcc
ggggcc
ggggcc

Because by raw, the unit looks stupid and is a pain in the **** to move around the table.

nosferatu1001
18-12-2008, 14:52
Reinnon - Agred, it is stupid looking. And our group generally would play it the same way. However tournaments do NOT generally play it that way at all, hence giving the "correct" (on the basis that nothing is correct as everything can be agreed :) ) answer above, based on what the book actually says.

Finally - can someone PLEASE PLEASE lock this thread, as 2 seconds with search will bring up around 10 instances of the same question being asked, just in slightly different in detail but same in effect cases. It gets annoying as you have the same RAW vs 6th Ed Chronicles vs RAI debate everytime.

Walls
18-12-2008, 17:16
Really though, doing it the "right" way is certainly advantageous if you are attacking to the front. The Necromancer's attacks, 2d6 from the cart and 4 ghouls including a possible ghast. Just have someone protecting your flanks!

Ganymede
18-12-2008, 17:22
Agred, it is stupid looking. And our group generally would play it the same way. However tournaments do NOT generally play it that way at all

Name one of those Tournaments that expects this, just one.

XXgggg
XX
XX
XX
ggggg
ggggg
ggggg

nosferatu1001
18-12-2008, 19:05
Well UK GT heat 2 (I think) had rulings which supported this. Although it isn't in the rules pack, as it's,erm, actually in the rules. Although trying to grab the ToSkulls pack now, just to check.

Can you name one where they ruled FOR the count the model multiple times approach?

It also doesn't change that a) thems the rules and b) this exact question has been asked, and completely answered, around 30 times. Enough!

Ganymede
18-12-2008, 19:13
Well UK GT heat 2 (I think) had rulings which supported this. Although it isn't in the rules pack, as it's,erm, actually in the rules. Although trying to grab the ToSkulls pack now, just to check.

Can you name one where they ruled FOR the count the model multiple times approach?

It also doesn't change that a) thems the rules and b) this exact question has been asked, and completely answered, around 30 times. Enough!

Every tournament in the Indy GT circut, as well as every tournament in the GWUS circut, supports such an interpretation. From an analysis of the army pictures and batreps of the place earners of all of this year's UKGW heats, we also see that it is the supported stance there as well.

Philosophically, if no one plays by a certain rule, then what weight does such a rule even have?

Neckutter
18-12-2008, 19:38
Every tournament in the Indy GT circut, as well as every tournament in the GWUS circut, supports such an interpretation. From an analysis of the army pictures and batreps of the place earners of all of this year's UKGW heats, we also see that it is the supported stance there as well.

Philosophically, if no one plays by a certain rule, then what weight does such a rule even have?

i was told specifically by a rulesboy that i would have to match up length with a palanquin into a unit. thus you get the 5 "models" in the front rank, a weird gap, then you have 6 models ranks after that. he said that since you have 150mm frontage you have to keep the same frontage to keep a "sqaure". so the "second" rank would be made up of 1 more model than the front.

is this a bunk ruling then?
and me and my friends play by the tournament rulings, so i made nurgling placeholders made of cav bases for my units to look better.

my palanquin lines up like this in my units:
where p=palanquin, and c=chaos warrior, in a unit of 18 chaos warriors
ppcccc
pp
cccccc
cccccc
cc


in the gap i have two cav bases filled with nurglings just as a place holder. i would very much like to know if this is not a correct formation. for if it is incorrect, then i am missing out on combat res. i would assume that if the GTs played it like this:

ppcccc
ppcccc
cccccc
cccc

it would look like the pictures in white dwarfs, and would make a hellova lotta sense. anyways, i guess if they did not FAQ how a palanquin on nurgle works for daemons, they wont FAQ it for WoC either. that also reminds me. when i called the rulesboys, it was about daemon palanquins as well(because the WoC book wasnt out). of course im hoping that daemon palanquins act like WoC palanquins. which is asking GW for a lot.

nosferatu1001
18-12-2008, 19:40
Trouble is this the rules forum, therefore you can state the actual rules, and as you have nicely missed, I support that it is a silly look and feel.

And for the 30th time - this thread is a simple repeat. This question has been completely answered (RAW AND GAP) multiple times, and is jsut a waste of space.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
18-12-2008, 19:47
with the gt ruling it would affect skarsnik as well as his base is huge

Walls
18-12-2008, 20:12
Constantly repeating it's a waste of space is kinda the same.

We are trying to discuss why the rules do/do not work. I still think it's kinda wonky myself. Wouldn't you count the cart and necromancer seperate, therefore ranking up 3 beside them to make 5?

nosferatu1001
18-12-2008, 21:28
No - the cart counts as 1 model, see many other rulings whcih indicate this.

This isn't why the rules do / do not work - the rule is clear, you count a model once for determining if the unit gains rank bonuses.

Now gap doesnt work it like that. So there are the entire set of possible answers, now pick the one that your local area /tourney plays by:

1) Strict raw, which looks silly. 1 model == 1 model, no counting it twice or more
2) GAP, where you put the model in so it looks nice, and count its' displacement of mdoels towards rank bonus.

There aren't any other answers, there really aren't. And this has been answered in a lot of other threads, just not for this exact example. Why people cant use search...

devolutionary
18-12-2008, 21:45
To further the point quickly; If a model with a base that shifts in to another rank or file counts as filling that space (as is suggested above), then a 25mm based hero in a 20mm unit will count as four models.

Ganymede
18-12-2008, 23:34
i was told specifically by a rulesboy that i would have to match up length with a palanquin into a unit.


Wait a second! I was told the exact opposite by a rulesboy. Now don't that beat all.


To further the point quickly; If a model with a base that shifts in to another rank or file counts as filling that space (as is suggested above), then a 25mm based hero in a 20mm unit will count as four models.

To be honest, isn't this little more than a straw dog?

devolutionary
19-12-2008, 00:04
Straw man you mean? Not really. It's intended to highlight the flaws in arguing for the lap-around : If a model's base exceeds normal sizes and begins to occupy the space that other bases in the unit can fill, it counts as being 1 model for the purpose of that space : OK, that's probably not the best description, but that's what folks arguing for the lap-around effect on the cart are basically saying. Now if I put a 25mm model in to a 20mm unit, he extends 5mm to one side, back, and the corner. How do you address that situation? Assuming that the intention of the lap-around argument is to ensure square sides and even distribution of plastic in a unit with the exception of the last rank, he would occupy 4 model spaces.

Another thought - Does it state in the rules it says that the front of the models are aligned in a rank? This could force the cart out in this way;




FRONT

cc
cc
ccsssss
ssssss
ssssss



When we start looking for ways to include a single model in multiple ranks, we end up with too many problems and confusions. I would think it is safe to say that in the absence of any rule to indicate otherwise, a single model can fill a single place in a single rank. 1 rank position, 1 file position. There are specific exceptions for multiple units in the game but each is handled differently, so they hardly provide precedent game-wide.

Ganymede
19-12-2008, 00:39
Straw man you mean? Not really. It's intended to highlight the flaws in arguing for the lap-around : If a model's base exceeds normal sizes and begins to occupy the space that other bases in the unit can fill, it counts as being 1 model for the purpose of that space : OK, that's probably not the best description, but that's what folks arguing for the lap-around effect on the cart are basically saying.

That is not what folks are saying; it is some malformed golem of what folks are saying. Hence, it is a Straw Dog (straw man).

The issue at hand is that some people (almost all people) feel that the rules outlined in the most recent Chronicles are perfectly servicable for handling oddly shaped characters. They may not be in the most recent edition of the rules, but they certainly fit the general understanding on how such characters are commonly played. Even GW is somehow deluded into believing such. That's an important distinction.

We're here to provide solutions, not pedantry.

Fellblade
19-12-2008, 02:04
No. You don't rank up empire like:

HSSSS
H
SSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS

Where H is the horse being ridden by a hero and S are swordsmen. This is the correct way:
HSSSS <--- 5 models
HSSSS <--- 5 models (note: one is duplicated)
SSSSS <--- 5 models
SSSSS <--- 5 models



Can you please cite where you are getting this second diagram from?

Page 33 of the rulebook, figure 33.1, example 1. Its possible those are separate units, but there isn't a space between them unlike the chariot and units in example 2.

woodulikeanother
08-01-2009, 03:00
this is awesome i did'nt know the CC could join a unit, also i have put a post up asking if anyone knows if a varghulf can join units of ghouls?

WLBjork
08-01-2009, 07:38
Diagram 33.1 example 1 isn't brilliant.

I would say it's a useful guide as to the intentions of GW, just wished they'd made it clearer.

Lord Zarkov
08-01-2009, 11:27
@woodulikeanother: A valgulf can't join units because it's a monster. The Corpse Cart can only join units when ridden by a Necromancer.

Atrahasis
08-01-2009, 11:37
Diagram 33.1 example 1 isn't brilliant.

I would say it's a useful guide as to the intentions of GW, just wished they'd made it clearer.

Empire archers are skirmishers, so the hero couldn't join them anyway...

EvC
08-01-2009, 14:34
I have never seen a single UK tournament make people play it the way Neckutter says they do. Probably because he's basing his information on what a "rulesboy" says (Somewhere at GW HQ, a cleaning lady has gone missing...)

Neckutter
08-01-2009, 14:44
we dont play that way either, but that is what the rulesboy said to me. it is backed by RAW as well.
however in all the pictures you see the nice neat block formation that people like to see:
p=palanquin, n=plaguebearer

nnppnn
nnppnn
nnnnnn

so the rules are written a different way, but people dont play that way AND the GW picture guys(who set up the WD and armybook pictures) set up units differently.

@atrahasis why cant a hero on foot join a unit of skirmishers?

Atrahasis
08-01-2009, 14:53
The hero pictured is on a horse.

Neckutter
08-01-2009, 15:11
i missed that point.