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Edahlo
20-12-2008, 18:47
Should I stick with spears for my Bfsp Night goblins, or should I try to convert them into hand weapon and shield? I don't see the spears making a big difference in the end. Night goblins rely on static CR, right? And no spears equals more goblins..

Stuffburger
20-12-2008, 19:14
I personally like to run some of both- more interesting, and they both have their uses (I'm in the minority on this though.)

HW&S guys are more resilient, because there's more of them and a +1 better AS.

Speargobs are a better defensive unit that they are usually given credit for- between the fight in two ranks and the potential of fanatics, a lot of things are going to think twice about charging them. The fanatics deal a small number of nasty hits, and on big, cheap units that have no problem soaking that up goblins are actually not that bad. I'm thinking stuff like state troops, clanrats, men at arms, etc. (I've had them slaughter stuff as good as HE spearmen and GW dwarves before, with some magical help). Because they are fairly slow, prone to squabbling and have awful leadership, they depend a lot on good deployment to earn back their extra points.

And if for some reason you charge with the goblins, they still can go HW&S.

Edahlo
20-12-2008, 20:20
Hmm, are you saying hw and shield gives better AS while spear and shield does not? I wasn't aware of this.. Does the spear negate the shield? Then why would anyone pick shields with spears? I'm a little confused..!

Urgat
20-12-2008, 20:29
Nah, when you pick hand weapons+shields, you get an additional save point, so gobs with spears and shields have 6+, and gobs with HW+shields have 5+.
That's a regular rule that applies to everybody, I assume you're a newish player if you don't know that one, so now you know. Say, a black orc with heavy armor, choppa and shield gets a 3+ save.

Ward.
20-12-2008, 21:03
Hmm, are you saying hw and shield gives better AS while spear and shield does not? I wasn't aware of this.. Does the spear negate the shield? Then why would anyone pick shields with spears? I'm a little confused..!

To get extra attacks or if the isn't really worth while, dark elf warriors come to mind as a unit that benefits from using spears occasionally.

Stuffburger
20-12-2008, 21:06
Hmm, are you saying hw and shield gives better AS while spear and shield does not? I wasn't aware of this.. Does the spear negate the shield? Then why would anyone pick shields with spears? I'm a little confused..!

This only is a factor in close combat- spear and shield and hand weapon and shield both only grant 6+ AS against shooting.

Stuffburger
20-12-2008, 21:07
Doublepost :(

Edahlo
20-12-2008, 22:41
Ah, okey. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I've never played competitively, only some friendly games, so I'm no rules expert. :)

Bortus
20-12-2008, 23:41
Well you can take the spears and shields if you want the gobbos to use thier shields as a save vs. shooty attacks such as archers and that's why you'll see spears and shields, that and the models look great with shields. Persoanlly I like to use night gobbos as fanatic delivery systems and I'll give them bows to kill whatever fanatic tries comming back and getting to my all important orc units!

Disciple of Caliban
20-12-2008, 23:53
I mostly like HW + shield. That said many of the skull pass goblins hold their spears across their bodies, and so its pretty tricky to cut it down to a hand weapon. For that reason i think its easiest to have a unit of each. Get all the goblins who hold their spears away from their bodies and cut the spear haft away from below the goblins hand, basically leaving you a goblin with sword and shield.

If memory serves (and it probably doesnt to be truthful) doing this gives you 18 HW goblins, and 16 spear goblins from the 34 (not including command figures) spear and shield goblins in skull pass

W0lf
20-12-2008, 23:54
Just dont take spears and leave them as they are.

Inform your opponent they dont have spears.

In an army with likely 150+ models that 1 pt per model really adds up!

Edahlo
21-12-2008, 00:16
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter, everyone. :)

W0lf: Would that work for tournaments and such? Don't they need to be "wysiwyg"?

I want my models with HW+shield to be usable in competitive play, so I guess I'll just make some of each type, using Disciple of Caliban's suggestion.

I'll also make sure to try your bow tactic, Bortus. When I get fanatics that is..

Braad
21-12-2008, 09:11
They do need to be WYSIWYG, ofcourse. Though with most friends you can pull of anything you like, but at tournies and shops it is just better to stick to the right arms.

I once did the math... Gob's with HW&Shield are better pointswise, but the others tend to generate more combat resolution (not much though!) especially if they get charged. Now that is all very nice, but if a unit dies completely because you wanted to spare 1 point per model, that is quite useless...

But I'm going with it! I'll be making a unit of 30 HW&Shield gobbo's. Still saves 30 points on that unit, which is nearly a spear chukka :P

On a side-note. The nice thing about giving them spears, is the versatility. You can choose what weapons to use, since when you arm them with spears, they also still retain their hand weapons. If you charge, you pick the HW&Shield to get more AS, and if you get charged you go for spears to retain as much attacks as possible.
Against high strenght opponents, gobbo shields are pretty useless anyway...

Disciple of Caliban
21-12-2008, 11:38
^^ Yeah, but factor this into your maths, for the cost of the spears (on a 30 man unit) i can buy a fanatic, now which unit is doing more damage :)

Personally i favour bows, and my first port of call when bringing out the night goblins in 3 * 25 archers with a fanatic each. These guys are pretty handy, and their static combat res (often enhanced by being on a hill) means they can hold their own against fast cav and such like with little trouble. Also, they'll make a real mess of any large target that lands nearby thanks to the ability for all ranks to fire at it :)

Braad
21-12-2008, 14:36
I did the math on a common gobbo unit... But more or less the same as my chukka, yes.

I completely agree with the archers too! I got 2 units of gobbo's (1 common, 1 night) of 21 with bows.
Also, ad a gobbo BSB to it, and give them the spider banner. Might be a bit expensive, but such a bunch of poisoned arrows is quite likely to hurt a lot for large targets.

Time of Madness
21-12-2008, 16:11
There is absolutely no reason at all to take spears.

The hand weapon/shield combo with the addition of nets provides a solid save. Keep the goblins as cheap as possible.
Time of Madness

Braad
21-12-2008, 18:32
There is a reason to take spears: its cool.

And another one: the box sets (at least, the old ones) didn't supply hand weapons...

Kronos
21-12-2008, 19:04
i think spears look better on the models, just explain to your opponent (as already) which unit has hand weapons and which one has spears.

on a side note...and i don't mean to hijack the thread, it's just something I've thought of while reading this thread....when you add the points up in a unit for the upgrade of spears do you also add the points of the command models (ie you have 20 gobbos, and three are the command, do you add 20 points to the total cost or just 17?).

Disciple of Caliban
22-12-2008, 10:34
you add 20 points, because the command models all count as being armed with spears.

Obviously the command models never get to use their spears, but what if you were arming a unit with (for example) 2 choppas, if you werent paying the points to upgrade the command models then your command options would only be able to fight with a hand weapon and so wouldnt get the extra attack

Kronos
22-12-2008, 13:55
you add 20 points, because the command models all count as being armed with spears.

Obviously the command models never get to use their spears, but what if you were arming a unit with (for example) 2 choppas, if you werent paying the points to upgrade the command models then your command options would only be able to fight with a hand weapon and so wouldnt get the extra attack

cheers, i don't play whfb, just like making army lists and i wasn't too sure on that, thanks for clearing that up.....actually makes sense now :D