PDA

View Full Version : Chaos Dragon



changer of fate
21-12-2008, 00:20
Now, we are talking about the biggest and certainly feared by most people.
But for me taking a dragon is always a question mark, so i hope someone could tell me is it worth it taking a dragon is WoC?:evilgrin:

Havock
21-12-2008, 02:04
I suppose it is, as long as the accessory is a level 4 mage.

changer of fate
21-12-2008, 03:18
would you consider taking one in a 3000pts game?

Havock
21-12-2008, 03:40
Definately. Even in a 2k game, you just have to build around it a bit.

bork da basher
21-12-2008, 07:15
i wouldnt have a problem using one in a 2k game, my opponants are up for anything usually or use one themselves so its all good.

i use one in an alternative list to my WoC all mounted army.

i arm him thusly...

chaos lord - chaos dragon, MoT, armour of morrslieb (3+ ward against all bar magical attacks) enchanted shield (1+ save) axe of khorne for 5 S6 killing blow attacks, favour of the gods and diabolic splendour which is a MUST HAVE for a chaos dragon rider, -1 to LD on terror tests is really nice.

i thought about going for a sorcerer lord but i just wanted a no nonsense plunge in type of charecter, i play alot of magic in my other list.

changer of fate
21-12-2008, 12:54
cool, I never even thought about using a dragon in games under 3000pts:eek:, but now i change my mind and try to use one in a 2k game, but can anyone tell me how to build a list around the dragon which is going to take up about 600-700pts?:confused:

Neknoh
21-12-2008, 13:07
Well, it depends on the dragon I'd say.

What you will want in a list including a dragon will vary greatly dependant on both what lord you place on the dragon and what you want your list to be made up from.

I would say that a Sorceror Lord on a dragon allong with a level two Sorceror should do well in the character department, this is however, around 900 points of characters, as such, we will want perhaps two or three blocks of Marauders to provide a core for the army despite having sunk a lot of points into characters. We can now add in whatever hitting power you will want, be it two units of knights, a unit of knights and some Ogres, Trolls or Dragon Ogres, there are many options for you.

theunwantedbeing
21-12-2008, 13:16
The chaos dragon is infact weedier than the star dragon.
Less wounds, less strength, less weaponskill.
Also it's breath weapons dont cause panic either.

Lord on dragon, sole character...loads of points left for an army.
Sorcerer lord for magic, normal lord if you dont want magic.

Works fine and isnt too overbearing in a 2k list either.
At larger points dragons become less worth taking as they die so easily to artillery, and at larger games you have more atillery.

Havock
21-12-2008, 13:39
chaos lord - chaos dragon, MoT, armour of morrslieb (3+ ward against all bar magical attacks) enchanted shield (1+ save) axe of khorne for 5 S6 killing blow attacks, favour of the gods and diabolic splendour which is a MUST HAVE for a chaos dragon rider, -1 to LD on terror tests is really nice.

... And illigal ;)
Armour of Morsslieb = magic armour, enchanted shield = magic armour.
You could swap the AoM for a collar of Khorne (with MoT 5+ wardsave vs everything and MR2)


The chaos dragon is infact weedier than the star dragon.
Less wounds, less strength, less weaponskill.
Also it's breath weapons dont cause panic either.


But our accessory is better ;)

GodlessM
21-12-2008, 13:45
I was thinking of a possible 2k Dragon list yesterday. A Dragon Lord with the splendour, coupled with a BSB with the Doom Totem could be a good strategy.

Harwammer
21-12-2008, 14:01
I don't like having a quarter of an army invested in one model. As such I'll rarely use a dragon in 2k. I'll fight against one, but I don't think the games are that interesting.

Valtiel
21-12-2008, 14:14
Actually if you give a Sorcerer Lord a Chaos Dragon and give him gifts/items enough he will cost almost 800 points which is almost too much in one model... especially in a 2k battle. I'd probably just put one on a Manticore in 2k and on a Dragon in 3k if I were you.

Havock
21-12-2008, 14:24
I don't like having a quarter of an army invested in one model. As such I'll rarely use a dragon in 2k. I'll fight against one, but I don't think the games are that interesting.
Well, let's just say that a sorcerer lord on dragon is far more a strategical weapon than the flying battering ram it is when you put a fighty lord on it.

changer of fate
22-12-2008, 02:54
After I thought about it, I finally came up with a Dragon list.

Character: Sorcerer Lord 700
Lvl 4 Wizard
dispel scroll
power familiar
mark of tzeentch
Chaos dragon
CHAOS SORCERER 165
Lvl 2 wizard
book of secret
mark of tzeentch
Core units: CHAOS WARRIORS 300
15 warriors
shield
full command
mark of Nurgle
CHAOS MARAUDERS 110
15 marauders
flail
light armor
full command
CHAOS MARAUDERS 110
15 marauders
flail
light armor
full command
CHAOS MARAUDERS 110
15 marauders
shield
light armor
full command
MARAUDER HORSEMAN 91
5 horseman
flail
musician
mark of slaanesh
MARAUDER HORSEMAN 91
5 horseman
flail
musician
mark of slaanesh
CHAOS WARHOUNDS 30
5 warhounds
CHAOS WARHOUNDS 30
5 warhounds
Special: CHAOS KNIGHTS 260
5 knights
musician
standard
mark of Nurgle

But I still cant decide between Sorcerer lord on dragon or Valkia the bloody in 3k games

Lazarus15
22-12-2008, 06:27
I would personally go with great weapons over flails on the foot slogging marauders. S5 is better when you get it all the time, rather than just first round. In subsequent rounds you will probably go last anyways, so, that is just me though. I would probably drop the one unit of warriors and add in more knights and more marauders/m. horsemen. Either that or trim slightly to add in a new unit of knights and one knight to the existing unit, making two units of six knights. That way you can pinch the enemy force in between 2-3 hammers, with your infantry and lighter calvary cleaning up stragglers, while using the war hounds to hunt war machines. Not a bad list though, not bad at all.

changer of fate
22-12-2008, 07:09
Thanks to everyone's advices, with all the advice I slightly change the list. It should look like this:

Characters: SORCERER LORD 700
Lvl 4 sorcerer
dispel scroll
power familiar
mark of tzeentch
Chaos Dragon

CHAOS SORCERER 165
Lvl 2 wizard
book of secret
marke of tzeentch

Core units: CHAOS MARAUDERS 110
15 marauders
great weapon
light armor
full command

CHAOS MARAUDERS 110
15 marauders
flail
light armor
full command

CHAOS MARAUDERS 110
15 marauders
shield
light armor
full command

MARAUDER HORSEMAN 91
5 horseman
flail
musician
mark of slaanesh

MARAUDER HORSEMAN 91
5 horsman
flail
musician
mark of slaanesh

MARAUDER HORSEMAN 91
5 horseman
musician
throwing spears
shield
mark of slaanesh

CHAOS WARHOUNDS 30
5 warhounds

CHAOS WARHOUNDS 30
5 warhounds

CHAOS WARRIORS 206
11 warriors
shield
full command

Special units: CHAOS KNIGHTS 260
5 knights
mark of nurgle
standard
musician


I did thought about replacing the warriors with the knights, but because of money shortage, I will try to use the models that i already own.

Havock
22-12-2008, 12:04
I would defnately rey to shove in a diabolc splendour on the Sorcerer lord, it's too good to pass up on. Either the Collar of Khorne or a cheap talisman of protection can boost his life expectancy by a lot.

Admiral Samuel Eden
22-12-2008, 21:32
I personally dislike using dragons, There are far too many amazing units in the list to pas up on a single model which is actually quite easy to kill. I totally grant that they are effective, but they don't suit my play style and it really goes against my principles. Being a WAB player and an Empire player in WFB, I prefer more troops. If you do use a dragon however, a sorcerer lord is definitely the better option, chaos lords aren't actually that good or cost effective while sorcerers kick.
By the way, bork DA basher, though indeed a nice combination of magic items, it is prohibited by the warhammer rule book which somewhat puts a shadow on its use.

snyggejygge
22-12-2008, 21:43
That Dragon Rider is too vulnerable, Iīd give him Collar of Khorne to protect him against magic & to also get a decent 5+ ward (atleast 1/3 of a chance to save a wound).

I donīt like Dragons much in small games, it become a hunt the monster game most of the time, but IF I would ever field a Chaos Lord on Dragon I would go for the following items:

Chaos Lord, Mark of Tzeentch, Collar of Khorne, Crimson Armour of Dargan, Flail & shield, then either Word of Agony or Diabolic Splendour (both have their uses, Word of Agony help you killing a pesky unit champ before any challenges are made, so you can kill more troops, Splendour helps you become a terror bomb, but is useless vs Daemons & VC), but only if the points allow it Imo the army itself is more important than the Dragon Rider.
I think this build is cheap enough, provides good hitting power (5 S7 attacks & 6 S6 Attacks), & is able to survive most shooting & magic due to the 5+ Ward, MR2 & not being able to get multiple wounds from cannons & bolt throwers

changer of fate
23-12-2008, 02:41
OK guys this is the newest version of my list and i hope it's the final version:rolleyes:.

Lord: Sorcerer Lord 760
chaos dragon
mark of tzeentch
lvl 4 wizard
dispel scroll
power familiar
collar of khorne
diabolic splendour

Hero: Chaos Sorcerer 165
mark of tzeentch
lvl 2 wizard
book of secret

Core: Chaos Warriors 206
11 warriors
shield
full command

Chaos Marauders 110
15 marauders
flails
light armor
full command

Chaos Marauders 110
15 marauders
great weapon
light armor
full command

Chaos Marauders 140
20 marauders
shield
light armor
full command

Marauder Horseman 91
5 horseman
flails X2
musician
mark of slaanesh

Chaos Warhounds 30
5 warhounds X2

Special: Chaos Knights 260
5 knights
mark of nurgle
standard
musician

SlaaneshSlave
24-12-2008, 22:09
I had a bit of an epiphany. Or, so I think...

Chaos Dragon can use its breath weapons into woods & target units it cannot see, can they? Thinking this might be the way for WoC to clear woods of those pesky scouts with killing blow. (Of course, need to wear the KB immunity armor.)

So, can a breath weapon kill skirmishers in woods even if they can't be seen? Can't think of a rule against it.

Lazarus15
25-12-2008, 00:30
I can't quite tell if your first sentence is a question or a statement. Unless it is army specific, you have to see the unit you are shooting at. Unless they are within 2" of the edge of woods, you can't see, so you can't shoot.

SlaaneshSlave
25-12-2008, 00:53
But it is a template weapon. Is it too cheesy to aim the template onto skirmishers that I cannot see because of woods?

Neknoh
25-12-2008, 01:35
If you can see one of them inside of the woods, then you can burninate the entire unit... with two templates.

If you cannot see any of them, you are not allowed to place the template there as far as I know

SlaaneshSlave
25-12-2008, 02:35
Note that the monster must be able to see all its potential targets.
Phooey! Those Way Watchers live again.

RavenBloodwind
25-12-2008, 02:40
Ah hell, it's christmas. I'll let you vaporize my waywatchers. Unfortunately you have to wait 'til next week.

SlaaneshSlave
25-12-2008, 05:07
How did you know I meant your Way Watchers?

hehe

Neknoh
25-12-2008, 09:59
One thing of note, those waywatchers no longer have the 3" rule, as such, if they can see you, you can see them (if facing the proper direction), so, they shoot at your knights? Dragon flies to proper edge of forest and turns to face them.

Anyone up for elf-roast?

Jericho
25-12-2008, 10:23
I don't see why anyone wastes time throwing a 700 pt model at Waywatchers. Unless you get absurdly lucky they aren't going to do much damage to anyone. I've rarely ever seen them do anything beyond provide a distraction (and I played nothing but Wood Elves last year for Fantasy). The KB shots are highly overrated, and spells with loose targetting restrictions are the far better way to deal with Waywatchers. D6 S4 is usually enough to make the unit completely useless for the rest of the game.

SlaaneshSlave
25-12-2008, 17:39
I generally agree with Jericho. But lately I have been trying a full infantry WoC force.

March blocking has become a major issue. I've done OK protecting my rear with Spawn, Chariots, Hell Cannon, Mounted Marauders, but they are not very mobile & don't work in woods well at all.

My thought was that a Wizard Lord on Dragon wouldn't have to dedicate himself to protecting the rear/woods. Just having the model within 20" of the woods should help keep the woods clear.

And Way Watcher killing blow doesn't really bother knights too much, because they can run away. That unit of 10 Chosen with a Special Character gives them 6 turns of killing blows. You can expect over half of the unit to evaporate if the Way Watchers are just allowed to follow the Chosen.

Jericho
25-12-2008, 20:41
If you give the Waywatchers that much time, then yes they will do some damage. At some point though you're probably going to get a spell off that will kill them. Each lore has a few that don't need LOS. Hysterical Frenzy can be a fun way to screw them, face them to charge something they have no hope of ever beating in combat. Some will die, then you'll have to soak a handful of S3 attacks, then you will swat them like flies in return.

<edit> As a remains in play spell, you can choose to end it at any time. Like, for example, immediately after you force the enemy to charge you... </edit>

Havock
26-12-2008, 11:45
11 PD in the Tzeentch lore + banner of wrath > waywatchers.