PDA

View Full Version : Assassins and Word of Agony



Draconian77
21-12-2008, 10:12
Very simple question really, which goes first/last/whenever...

Came up in my latest game against the WoC and after a reading of the rules they appear to happen at the same time. We decided to go with the "turn player" resolves his rules/abilities first followed by his opponent, but is this the established way for dealing with this little problem?

Lordsaradain
21-12-2008, 10:21
I'd say first the assassin is revealed, then challenges are declared, then you can use word of agony and after the assassin may strike.

Draconian77
21-12-2008, 10:30
Whats your reasoning behind that?

Its seems pretty clear that they happen at the same time("Start" being synonymous with "beginning" was our arrived point)

Dareus
21-12-2008, 10:40
And because of this I'd say that you also can use your word of agony before the assassin is revealed ;). That doesn't make sense most of the time so you should wait to see the Assassin jumping out of the enemy regiment.

Draconian77
21-12-2008, 11:32
And because of this I'd say that you also can use your word of agony before the assassin is revealed ;). That doesn't make sense most of the time so you should wait to see the Assassin jumping out of the enemy regiment.

It's not really a matter of whether or not it makes sense and its certainly not up to the Chaos player to "wait", its a matter of when it's triggered. It seems that they both trigger at the same time so how do you resolve it? Other than a dice off which players around here are sceptical to use, because entire games can swing on a D6 roll.

Dareus
21-12-2008, 14:07
It's not really a matter of whether or not it makes sense

Hehe...Sometimes this indeed is a real problem in Warhammer. ;)

But I don't really see a reason why there has to be a rigid sequence for events "at the beginning of the close combat phase". When the "beginning of the phase" is over after the first event the second event won't even happen.

Apart from this there is no set sequence written anywhere, so maybe there really is none.

Just imagine two "items" that can be used "anytime" and one of them had an effect on the other one. You also wouldn't roll for sequence because after the first one is triggered and the game isn't over then, it would be still "anytime" and the second one could be used in response.
I think this can be directly tranferred to the above problem.

Draconian77
21-12-2008, 14:56
Hehe...Sometimes this indeed is a real problem in Warhammer. ;)

But I don't really see a reason why there has to be a rigid sequence for events "at the beginning of the close combat phase". When the "beginning of the phase" is over after the first event the second event won't even happen.

Apart from this there is no set sequence written anywhere, so maybe there really is none.

Just imagine two "items" that can be used "anytime" and one of them had an effect on the other one. You also wouldn't roll for sequence because after the first one is triggered and the game isn't over then, it would be still "anytime" and the second one could be used in response.
I think this can be directly tranferred to the above problem.

Originally Posted by myself...
"It's not really a matter of whether or not it makes sense"

Definately not my finest argument I'd agree...:angel:

But still it seems that they both trigger at the both time.

Also, the thing about your example is that if the one that had an effect on the other triggered first it makes a large difference to the outcome of the game...

Thats very much the case here actually.(Word being the item which affects another) With our interpretation the Druchii player could receive a charge and his Assassin would be an invalid target for Word of Agony or he could charge but then his Assassin would be a valid target.

stripsteak
21-12-2008, 22:00
well since they both occur at the same time. they both occur "at the start of the close combat phase" it should be treated in a similar manner to when ASF meets ASF. roll it off to see who uses there ability first. at leasts that is how i would go since there is no clear rulling. they both occur at the same point in the phase and neither say anything like this occurs before anything else.

GodlessM
22-12-2008, 00:12
Assassin is revealed, then Word of Agony, then challenges are declared, then fight your combats.

Draconian77
22-12-2008, 05:21
I really wish people would provide reasonings behind this chain of events.

I mean if someone else posts "Word of Agony->Assassin->Challenges->Combat" who can say who is right/wrong without using logic...

Fellblade
22-12-2008, 08:41
Stripstreak has the best answer. If they're simultaneous, roll it off. That's how WFB seems to cover that type of situation.

Draconian77
22-12-2008, 20:01
Ah, the wholesome 4+ rule...we meet again apparently.

I wish GW would sharpen up their rules just a tad.

Djekar
23-12-2008, 04:44
I treat it like I do when there are 2 infernal puppets (in each army, of course). In that case, the person (A) who rolls a miscast that he likes will never use his puppet, and so his opponent (B) is forced to use the puppet first, allowing the caster (A) to modify the roll that has been modified already (by B), allowing him to reacquire the result that he wanted, and rolled first.
It does translate to this situation as well. Combat starts. They both go at the same time, I see no reason to WoA, so I don't use it. You pop the assassin out, now I see a reason and use it. Just because I didn't use the power immediately doesn't mean that I forfeited my chance to do so. You say "Okay, then I don't pop my assassin out" and then I ret-con the use of WoA and we are stalemated again. The start of combat phase is not as rigid as to give each person only a single chance to perform an action. Until you both decide to do nothing else, then it is still that phase. So WoA is an assassin killer, either by nuking him directly or by making him too scared to come out and play in the first place.

~Tarp

Draconian77
23-12-2008, 05:31
I treat it like I do when there are 2 infernal puppets (in each army, of course). In that case, the person (A) who rolls a miscast that he likes will never use his puppet, and so his opponent (B) is forced to use the puppet first, allowing the caster (A) to modify the roll that has been modified already (by B), allowing him to reacquire the result that he wanted, and rolled first.
It does translate to this situation as well. Combat starts. They both go at the same time, I see no reason to WoA, so I don't use it. You pop the assassin out, now I see a reason and use it. Just because I didn't use the power immediately doesn't mean that I forfeited my chance to do so. You say "Okay, then I don't pop my assassin out" and then I ret-con the use of WoA and we are stalemated again. The start of combat phase is not as rigid as to give each person only a single chance to perform an action. Until you both decide to do nothing else, then it is still that phase. So WoA is an assassin killer, either by nuking him directly or by making him too scared to come out and play in the first place.

~Tarp

Assuming that is how it works(I have my doubts as all things must occure at some point in time) would it then be acceptable to deploy an Assassin in the fight but not in base contact with the bearer of WoA, then issue a challenge which the bearer(Being a WoC character) must accept, what happens? Does WoA go before challenges are declared? If so my original question was quite pointless actually.

Nakat
23-12-2008, 14:56
I'd have to re-read the text, but it would seem pretty darn apparent that this is an ability used to save a character (or at least help out) caught in a dual he doesn't want to be in. Not being able to use this in a dual would be, dare I say, crap.

Thus I think it's RaI, if nothing else, to say that WoA can be used in response to an accepted dual. I also think Tarp is right, and that if multiple things happen "at the beginning," then it's up to the players to decide the order, and things that happen in response do just that. It's just something to consider. I personally think taking a 40pt. gift usable once per game just in case you get hit with something like an assassin is a pretty fair trade.

Borthcollective
23-12-2008, 19:41
How about the Dark Elf player be smart and place the Assassin away from the Chaos character? You move them into base after the challenge is made, which I would not argue happens after the beginning of the close combat phase. If he chooses to place him in contact with the character though I would play it as simultaneous and the assassin would take the damage.

stripsteak
23-12-2008, 20:15
How about the Dark Elf player be smart and place the Assassin away from the Chaos character? You move them into base after the challenge is made, which I would not argue happens after the beginning of the close combat phase. If he chooses to place him in contact with the character though I would play it as simultaneous and the assassin would take the damage.

That would works perfectly well and is a good use of the rules.

Djekar
24-12-2008, 04:25
I heartily agree Borth, great idea! Way to stick it to those Chaos worshiping bums!

~School

OldMaster
24-12-2008, 10:25
Darn it... =P
Assassins are not fair...
I suppose then you're not worthy to be a Chaos Lord if you're killed by the first Assassin you encounter.

Dareus
24-12-2008, 10:56
Hm...yes right. Don't know to say anything against this. If this isn't FAQed then the Assassin is still the omnipotent solution against each and all character.
With 5-7 Attacks KB, hatred of the Assassin the Chaos Lord is dead in average like any other character, too.

At least the Dark Elf lord with his toughness of 3 is easy to kill for any other eager (to die) Chaos Sorceror :rolleyes:

Cheers and Merry Christmas,

DAreus