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BTDecoy
21-12-2008, 11:05
Hey, all. VERY new player here, AKA, haven't played a game.

I've been browsing through the topics for the past seven pages or so, yet oddly, nothing inherrently answers my question (likely because I don't know all of the slang yet.) My question is thus:

I want to make a PURE Tzeench army, with an amount of Magic capable of pretty much rendering the opposing player blind, deaf, and dumb. However, truth be told, I don't quite know how to do that.

On top of that, while running a purely Mark of Tzeenched army, what does one do with Marauder Infantry? Are they intended to simply tank fire while Knights, Warriors and Chosen move up to deal the heavier-hitting?

Finally, I suppose the question that I need answered the most is: In a moderately competitive gaming arena (Read; No major tournie-armies, but people like to win), is a Pure Tzeench force one that could hold water, or is going solid-marked a bad thing (read; Competitively weak?)

Thank you for any help you all would be able to convey my way. Shadow hide.

Valtiel
21-12-2008, 11:25
Nice to see someone going for the mono-God lists. I'm glad to see more of those. :)

Anyway I myself run an all-Tzeentch army and I think it works well. Haven't played that many games yet (2 games, one against ORcs and one against HE) and both went very well.

Imo, Tzeentch characters are some of the best of all the Gods if you equip them good enough. The lack of decent ward saves hurts, but Tzeentch adds a little more to it and makes Talisman of Protection and Collar of Khorne (if you want to take it) pretty good. Also Golden Eye of Tzeentch is great on Tzeentch characters. Also, Wizards of Tzeentch are great, with +1 to cast, a good lore and perhaps the best magic missile in the game (except against HE :P).

Blasted Standard is a gem with Tzeentch, I really missed it when I saw my 18 big unit of Chaos Warriors getting shot to pieces by everything my opponent had on the course of several turns. On Knights, it is most awesome as well. I also think that normal units can make good use of that 6+ ward. It might not be the best protection for the best points but it is better than nothing I think.

As for Marauders, I never mark Horsemen. And I will seldom mark footed Marauders. Maybe I'll mark those Marauders I have with Great Weapons but that will be it. I don't mark them because I want them as cheap as possible, and besides I don't think it fits fluffwise to mark them either. But what you can use the Marauders for? Anvils, they are rather great if you hide a Sorcerer or an Exalted Hero in it. They give some nice Static Combat Resolution along with being cheap units compared to everything else that is expensive as hell. They can have a 4+ armour save in close combat with light armour and shield which is pretty good for 6 pts. infantry. You can also use Marauders to support your Warriors, or maybe protect a flank.

I wish you good luck with your army. And may you claim many souls for the God of Change!

Elazar The Glorified
21-12-2008, 11:37
Hi, well there's the Tactica thread here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168969) which might be of some help.

I know most people aren't fans of mono-god for competitive armies but I like the appeal of a themed force over power playing so it doesn't bother me much. Personally I think Tzeentch is one of the stronger gods for a mono army. Ward saves on your troops I feel are worth the points. Sure it's only a 1 in 6 chance of saving a wound but couple that with heavily armoured warriors and knights etc they become a very hard army to break down.

As for marauders. It really depends what you plan on doing with them. Marking them Tzeentch can make them a little bit more resilient. Especially when you weight up the points costs. In most lists it's going to cost the same to give a unit the mark of Tzeentch as to give them shields OR light armour. Seeing as a 6+ armour save is easily cancelled out by moderate strength attacks a 6+ Ward save is in my opinion better value as you're always going to get that. With Horsemen it's maybe not as cost effective but by the same token, most good opponents are going to focus their firepower on killing these guys off before they can become too much of a nuisance as they're one of the easier to kill targets for shooting. If you're Horsemen are there more to draw fire than to cause damage I'd pass on it but I think the Ward Save is very useful on them, especially if you're sending them War Machine hunting.

Just my opinion but hope that's of some help.

W0lf
21-12-2008, 12:00
I field mono-God Tzeentch.

Top 10 tips:
1. Dont take Exalted champions, 150+ pt characters killing unit champs are a liability.

2. You want about 10 Power dice to start seeing a decent pay off for points invested in magic.

3. units of 20 Marauders with Full command, Light armour, shields and MoT are amazing static combat blocks.

4. Dont take warriors or chosen if your serious about winning. Knights fufill all they do and more.

5. Hounds, Hounds, Hounds.

6. 5 Marauder horsmen with no mark, (MoT is a waste of pts here) flails and mus for 81 pts is a solid investment.

7. Never leave home without Infernal puppet, only time i didnt take it my vampire opponents lord miscast and rolled a 3. Would have been instant-dead if id had the puppet.

8. Pandemonium is your best spell against a plethora of enemies, they will learn to fear it more then gateway.

9. Dont even bother casting spell 2 of Tzeentch lore. Its simply useless and can result in a miscast.

10. Make sure all your wizards have flickering fire and dont be afraid to one dice it. (only 3+ needed to cast)

BTDecoy
21-12-2008, 12:07
Firstly, thank y'all for the words thus far. Wolf, thanks especially for the spell-help, as I was not entirely sure about how it should run.

However, Wolf, why do you say not to take squads of Warriors? Marauders, I can sort of understand, but if there's something that needs sticking in, you'd think the Warriors would be able to do it. Am I just missing something?

Whitehorn
21-12-2008, 13:05
Mono-god WoC is a lot more feasible compared to Daemons. You have no restrictions on unit choices.

The marks for WoC enhance your units and define your magic. There's no way having only 1 mark or no marks would negatively affect your force.


3. units of 20 Marauders with Full command, Light armour, shields and MoT are amazing static combat blocks.

25-30 are better.


1. Dont take Exalted champions, 150+ pt characters killing unit champs are a liability.

So pull your head out of the tunnel and USE them to kill characters.

Havock
21-12-2008, 14:41
An exalted on daemonic steed with shield and aether blade = good assassin.

Raverrn
21-12-2008, 15:28
Assassin? He'll trash just about anything.

Havock
21-12-2008, 16:53
That's the whole point.

I like the basic Daemonic Steed: Extra movement plus 2 additional S5 attacks are a good deal IMHO; barring really crappy dice rolls, he can charge out of a unit and into something like a smallish cavalry unit. Challenge and either rip a hero to shreds or position away form the champion (if at all possible) and kill some knights.
assuming T3 2+ cav that's 3 dead. Enough to win combat by one with.
(assuming 3 hits and 2,5 kills from his own attacks, plus an additional 'half kill' from the steed)

He can kick the teeth in of most heroes, his only weakness is his 2+ save, so most high elf characters can be dangerous (S6, 3 attacks...)

Discord
21-12-2008, 18:28
So pull your head out of the tunnel and USE them to kill characters.

Well, if those characters aren't running around by themselves, you're forced to challenge, at which point the opponent just accepts with the champion. Which I'm pretty sure was the point here.

W0lf
21-12-2008, 20:03
How does that exalted assasinate anything? Dont people you play with take unit champs?

EoTGs seriously gimped all chaos characters beyond repair imo. Lest they be khorne ones on juggers ofc.

And i say dont take foot warriors because Knights do their job far better.

Marauders are for static.
Warriors for killing and tanking wounds.

Knights kill better then warriors and have a better armour save. Plus they cause fear and are almost 2x the speed.

Shamfrit
21-12-2008, 20:10
Unit champions don't exist on the flanks.

Unti champs will give 5CR, so unless it's a full CR unit (and it rarely is) you can still tie or lose by 1.

Not everyone puts unit champions in every unit, I know I certainly don't, because there's often no need to have them. Light Cavalry for example.

W0lf
21-12-2008, 20:13
Oh so your talking about running him solo?

Because if hes in a unit he will suffer the issues i listed. If hes solo he wont; easier flank charges, tking Light cav on his own being somewhat impressive (as opposed to him+unit).

However i have to stop myself from laughing whenever i see loan characters placed out. they die so easily its just a joke.

Edit: and calling unit champs +5Cr is a flat out lie. You do need to roll to hit and wound.

Shamfrit
21-12-2008, 20:15
Against 8 STR7 attacks hitting on 3 killing on 2+ the chances are you can easily achieve this. If you didn't, the dice are what's making you lose, not your choices!

And an Exalted with Enchanted Shield, Jugger, and the Golden Eye of Tzeentch is a -1 save, and a 4+ ward vs. missiles :D

Or on a Daemonic Steed/Disc, 3+ for the Mark fo Tzeentch.

W0lf
21-12-2008, 20:27
Oh i forgot exalted champs had 8 S7 atatcks. (erm wtf?)

Oh and that -1 up save isnt going to save your frenzied character from running into a wood, getting killed by a cannon/bolt thrower or a plethora of other counters.

oh and that combo above is 215 pts. id rather take 5 chaos knights with a musician for the points.

Plus your exalted has 8 S5 attacks.

Against a T4 3+ save unit champ hes got;

8 attacks
5.333 hits
3.555 wounds
2.9 unsaved wounds.

so thats something more like 3-4 CR. Against a block unit thats a loss by one and Ld7 break with frenzy lost.

Neknoh
21-12-2008, 20:32
No Shamfrit

Unit champions give 5CR PLUS whatever wounds they had before the champion let loose on them.

I think we would need a Warseer FaQ on them

W0lf
21-12-2008, 20:34
No your correct.

you get wounds caused plus an additional overkill bonus (excess unsaved wounds caused) of up to +5.

Neknoh
21-12-2008, 21:39
No your correct.

you get wounds caused plus an additional overkill bonus (excess unsaved wounds caused) of up to +5.

I take it as you cause wounds as normal and can get up to +5 for overkill which are solely composed of excess wounds caused to a champion

EDIT: Page 77, in black and white, BOTH as a given example AND in the text

The rule speaks about wounds inflicted and EXCESS WOUNDS which are "NOT ACTUALLY INFLICTED"

In the following sentence, it says quite clearly that "However, any excess wounds [this is reffering to the wounds not actually inflicted, i.e. the ones caused ONCE THE NORMAL CR WOUNDS HAVE RUN OUT] scored when fighting a challenge do count toward combat result(Up to a maximum of +5), even though they are not actually inflicted."

The example then given is that of a Dragon riding lord charging a unit, having the unit champion issue a challenge. The lord kills the champion causing 1 wound in order to do so, then, between him and the dragon, generates an additional 5 wounds, making the combat resolution 6 (5+1)

Jericho
21-12-2008, 22:07
W0lf, I'm pretty sure he's referring to the bog-standard Exalted with Jugger and Flail. I'm hoping these don't become as popular on the tabletop as they are on the Internet, they are pretty scary and I'm playing Tzeentch so I can't just smack him back with one :D

Neknoh
21-12-2008, 23:41
Anywho, on the nature of the Chaos List as a whole, there are some options viable for fully tzeentchian armies, however, the one thing you will want is magic, if only because the potential of very, very mean magic phases with mobile, yet durable sorcerors.

Avian has had quite some success with a trio of them, consisting of a Sorceror Lord with the Spell Familliar, Golden Eye of Tzeentch, Enchanted Shield and then whatever you would wish to give him for 45 points, perhaps the Rod of Torment could be tasty? Otherwise, a magic weapon allong with Favour of the Gods would be a rather shiny option, keep it cheap though, Sword of Might should be plenty enough. This character is given the Diabolic Splendour and placed on a Disc of Tzeentch and then goes surfing with his two best buddies.

The puppeteer
A sorceror with the Mark of Tzeentch, Amulet of Protection and an infernal puppet on a disc, he can be given the Bloodcurdling Roar to throw around some magic mayhem toward the enemy.

Lastly, we have the skullcarrier
This is a tzeentchian sorceror with a Skull of Katam sitting on a disc and surfing with his mates.

These three, as far as I've understood it, surfs together, forming a nice little bubble of +2 to cast Tzeentchian devastation, gateway goes down to a 13 to cast rather than 15 for instance, and the Lord is almost guaranteed to be sitting on it.


Now, when it comes to the core of the army, I would say it depends entirely on what you a looking for, a larger block of Warriors (say 20 fielded six wide with Shields, additional handweapons/Hallberds and a full command) can be quite nasty acting as points denial toward shooting and mangling most things in close combat should you opt to give them the Blasted Standard and the Mark of Tzeentch.

Otherwise, Marauders should make up your infantry core, blocks of 25 with shields and lightarmour make perfectly fine point fillers, CR givers and anvils. Two of these can be parked in your deployment zone next to the Warriors to protect the flanks of said warrior block, or can be deployed to one side of it to try and lure the enemy toward the weaker targets.

Marauder Horsemen are a must, yes, five of them with flails and a musician is, as wolf pointed out, a godsend and a well needed addition to a chaos army, don't give them anything shiny or somesuch, just keep them unmarked.

Doggies should be taken, nough said.

Now, for the Chosen, these are a little loved unit, I am currently experimenting with perhaps allowing them to act as a missile battery of rock hard badasness. Seven or eight of them armed only with Shields and a full Command could proove useful should you give them the Banner of Wrath and a Book of Seecrets, this would give them not one, but two magic missiles (should you pick Lore of Fire and default to spell 1) allong with some 240 points your opponent wont get ahold of. The problem here is that those 240 points might well need to advance to do something useful, leaving them dangerously prone to getting charged by fully ranked units.

Knights with Banner of Rage or Blasted Standard or even a Warbanner are pure gold, nothing more, nothing less, keep the ensorcelled weapons though, no lances.

Now, the rest of the special choises can well be considered, and I would say the Forsaken are even very, very fluffy for a Chaos army, however, I am still trying to find a role for them, considering two blocks of 20 in a 2000 point army acting as very dangerous missiles with their high movement, attacks and relatively high strength, however, in small blocks, I would say ignore them.

Trolls are good, but more often than not, they should be fielded with a Chaos Lord, Sigvald or Archaon as the army general rather than a leadership 8 sorceror lord that will be zooming around the field on a disc.

Ogres are only really useful when marked Khorne or accompanied by a War Altar or two, the stats given from the War Altars can turn these into truly horrific units, but again, for Tzeentch, I would avoid them.

Now, Dragon Ogres are a good alternative to Knights, having a higher strength and more wounds but lower armour and fewer attacks, I would say its a tossup and Knights often come out on top due to being mostly cheaper.

For the rares, Spawn are oft times useful, as a Shaggoths and Giants, but I would say its the Hellcannon shining through here, it can support your army from affar, handle enemy heavely armoured units, leaving little reason for your Warriors to carry the expensive and mostly useless Greatweapons. Furthermore, allong with the Sorceror Lord with Splendour, your Hellcannon should wreck panicked havoc on the enemy, not to mention the fact that the hellcannon will very rarely give its points to the enemy whilst accounting for quite a few more should you aim well.

LanceSaba
22-12-2008, 05:33
its still a toss up for me between tzeench and nurgle

but in my tzeench army im at a cross road what would be better 4 spawn with tzeench mark or 2 warshrines with tzeench mark mid u these will be my flanck holders because the way my army is i dont even have enough points to spend on hound but thats beside the point

so what is better to in a pure tzeench army the shrine or the spawn?

Jericho
22-12-2008, 08:07
Remember you don't have to mark everything. I probably wouldn't bother marking the Spawn, for example. 40 pts is a unit of hounds, which you say you need pretty badly.

Marwynn
22-12-2008, 08:38
Why choose? One Warshrine and 2 Spawn should do the trick. You don't have to Mark them up all the time too.

Jericho
22-12-2008, 09:33
The numbers actually work just about perfect that way, good call :D

Sidorio
22-12-2008, 09:57
hmm, i like mono-god lists, they're funb to use and make you feel all fluffy insdie. Anyway, take a nice warrior unit and knights both are handy little devils, as said you'll probably want units of 25 marauders for flanks and combat res, hounds are necesary and horsemen have their own uses.

for the rest of the force that is personal taste, i for one love chariots, don't doubt their potential, they are often overlooked and work real wonders on a flank, my chariot took out an entire skellie unit, suffering no loss and this was a surprise for both of us.

hellcannons inspire fear for the oponent, spawn... well i don't know too much here, same for the warshrine. anyway, happy hunting.