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Rank&Foul
22-12-2008, 08:13
Okay here is my question again. Where does the army book say that the shrine has to be on a chariot base? Has anyone seen a picture of the shrine? Did I neglect to look somewhere for an answer?

I want to model mine as a cluster of crazed warriors on 50x50 base. Can I do this? Why or why not?

havoc626
22-12-2008, 08:28
It doesn't say in the book that it has to be mounted on a chariot base, but (I think) the standard rule is that it must be mounted on the base it is supplied with, so it really depends on that for as to whether or not you can mount it on a 50x50 base.

Nurgling Chieftain
22-12-2008, 08:30
That doesn't make sense. Where's the shrine? Why not just make it a cluster of crazed warriors on a 50x100? The fluff image shows the shrine as a fairly large piece of kit pulled by a couple of chaos steeds. Without an official model, it's hard to specify an official base size.

Necromancy Black
22-12-2008, 10:09
Out of interest, what rules does the shrine follow and what's it's US?

This isn't a clear shot way of calculating it's base size, but it'll give you a good indication.

nosferatu1001
22-12-2008, 10:45
It would presumably have a US of [no of wounds on profile] as it is not a chariot and is therefore not automatically US4.

This unfortunately doesn't tell yu base size, as it strictly does not have one - as there is no model for it, and it is not defined as either chariot base or another size, you could model it 40x40 monster, 50x50 daemonic mount or 50x100 chariot, and by RAW any could be correct (meaning none are? ;) )

However, as has been said the fluff image depicts it as a chariot style creation, with a shrine being pulled along by steeds. As such I would put it on a 50x100, as this seems the fairest interpretation - largest frontage which would normally hurt it, and large flanks which again is a detriment to the model. This way you are clearly not modelling for any sort of advantage.

the two I have seen so far both followed this principle. one was awesome - chaos ogre wuith hooks in its back was pulling the shrine along:D

EvC
22-12-2008, 13:21
As a monster, the only guidance ofr bases is:
"Any base/ no base".
So make it on 50mm if you want, it's not like you get any notable advantage from it.

Talash
22-12-2008, 13:22
In theory, as it is not treated as a chariot but as a monster for moving and fighting, and has four wounds on its profile, a 50x50 base could be seen as appropriate. A 50x100 would be fine with me if someone used one against me, and until someone comes up with a ruling either way I dont see the harm.

Shamfrit
22-12-2008, 13:25
The general consensus amongst WOC players thus far is to base it on a chariot base, but again, this is only a concensus, it can technically be any size you want.

Lord Khabal
22-12-2008, 13:31
Yep, its just like the hellcannon, Valkia and Troll sp. character. No one knows. yey!

nosferatu1001
22-12-2008, 14:15
However with all of them there are "reasonable" estimates that can be made - Valkia is man sized large infantry*, Troll king would be troll base, and hell cannon....ok, you got me there. ;)

It's a monster so again, going by how the model looks, I would put it on a 50x100. But its another weird amalgam - looks like warmachine, doesnt have the rules of one.

In most cases modelling conservatively (limiting any advantage you would gain by modelling differently) is the most widely accepted and least likely to cause controversy method I've found.

*yes, you can't then easily balance her if you have decent wings - may have to nick the vamps wings, one pointed up would work, just about!

Neckutter
22-12-2008, 14:44
they will most likely make a model of it in the future and it will be on a 50x100 base. however, if you made it on a 50mm base i dont think many people would care, until GW releases the FAQ saying how big it is. on a 50mm base you arent going to have many "crazed chaos warriors". it would visually be better on a 50x100mm base.

valkia is on a 25mm base, the troll guy is on a 40mm base. the hellcannon isnt specified(even though the model has been out for more than two years).

Djekar
23-12-2008, 04:50
My friend is getting rid of his OK models and I was thinking of using his Skragg to pull my Warshrine instead of a steed. I see I've been beaten to the punch!

I agree that you should probably model it on a 50/100 to avoid people complaining that you are creatively modeling in order to get an advantage. It sucks, I know, but thems the breaks.

~Brick

blindingdark
23-12-2008, 11:26
Does the entry not state that the model is treated as a monster ?

Most monsters are mounted on a 50x50 are they not ? surely this means it should be mounted on a base as such, rather than a chariot base.

I can only think of two monsters that are mounted on a chariot base, the HE dragon and gaulrach, both of which are (obviously) dragons and so there size justifies this.

Other than an artists impression, what evidence is there that it should be a chariot base ?

just my two cents.

Whitehorn
23-12-2008, 11:32
The general consensus amongst WOC players thus far is to base it on a chariot base, but again, this is only a concensus, it can technically be any size you want.

Pretty sure Phil said Chariot base.
The imagery and description implies a chariot-like appearance (cart and horses with guardians).
The rules give it S4 by wounds.

Necromancy Black
23-12-2008, 11:32
The Corpse Cart, which is pretty much an undead chariot, follows all the rules for Monsters and has a chariot base. Honestly, I think 50x50 is the minumun size you'll get away with. There's absoluty nothing I can find that someone could argue against you about it, just so long as no side is smaller then 50mm.

blindingdark
23-12-2008, 12:27
The corpse cart is actually a ''cart'' and has many things in common with a chariot.
a warshrine can literally be anything, especially given the nature of Chaos.

i would argue that a 50x50 is just as acceptable as a chariot base, but a chariot base gives an advantage to your opponent.

Rank&Foul
23-12-2008, 23:46
Thanks a lot for your answers and feedback. I think that it is safe to conclude that we agreed that rulings regarding the size of the shrine's base are ambiguous. Using pages 7 and 71 of the big rulebook (base size, unit strength) as guidelines one can reasonably model the shrine on a 50x50 or a 50x100 base. But we also agreed that some people might be pissed off by the 50x50 so screw them if they can't take a joke.

Fellblade
24-12-2008, 00:12
Of the people I know, I don't think they'd complain about a 50x50 base for a warshrine. If I were to scratch build one, however, I'd put it on a 50x100 since that is the most likely what an official kit will be.

If that 50x50 "cluster of crazed warriors" were holding some sort of ark or other "shrine" type thing, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If it was just 5 warriors glued to a 50x50 base that could just blend right into a Marauder or Warrior unit, I might raise an eyebrow.

Rank&Foul
24-12-2008, 03:55
You are absolutely right 5 warriors stuck to a base would suck. But this is not how I intend to model it. As the fluff says shrines come in many flavors. I will probably model my shrines with 3-5 WoCs rallied around effigies or chaos totems of some sort... and while GW does not release an official models these shrines will be killers with a 3+ ward save (MoZ) and a smaller flank.

Neckutter
24-12-2008, 07:59
You are absolutely right 5 warriors stuck to a base would suck. But this is not how I intend to model it. As the fluff says shrines come in many flavors. I will probably model my shrines with 3-5 WoCs rallied around effigies or chaos totems of some sort... and while GW does not release an official models these shrines will be killers with a 3+ ward save (MoZ) and a smaller flank.

and then there's the rub. you are trying to skirt around making your shrine on a 50x100 base because its a disadvantage to you. very unsportsmanlike.

its like buying the new plastic giant and sticking him on a 50x50 base because the metal orc version came with that base.

blindingdark
24-12-2008, 11:03
and then there's the rub. you are trying to skirt around making your shrine on a 50x100 base because its a disadvantage to you. very unsportsmanlike.

I think thats a bit harsh in fairness. There is no legitamate reason why this cannot be done, (use a 50x50) and you could argue he would be giving away an unnesesary advantage if he plays it the other way.

also, bare in mind that he has gone through the effort of posting the question, to find what people consider acceptable. I do not think this is very unsportsmanlike ?

stripsteak
24-12-2008, 17:07
Personal opinion since there is no kit, and nothing official yet obviously or this question wouldn't be asked.

but since it includes a designers note that mentions it is pulled into battle by chaos steeds i'm going with the 50x100 crowd. the steeds pulling it would take up 50x50 as they are each normally on a cav base 25x50. that leaves you a 50x50 for the shrine itself.

Neckutter
24-12-2008, 17:29
I think thats a bit harsh in fairness. There is no legitamate reason why this cannot be done, (use a 50x50) and you could argue he would be giving away an unnesesary advantage if he plays it the other way.

also, bare in mind that he has gone through the effort of posting the question, to find what people consider acceptable. I do not think this is very unsportsmanlike ?

it is harsh, but i feel it is fair. he himself said that he is putting it on a 50x50 base because the 50x100 base will be a disadvantage. not because the 50x50 base will look better/makes more sense/whatever.

shouldnt you aspire to convert something to NOT give yourself an advantage? and if you think about how chariots/corpse carts are modeled it will be FAQ'd most likely that it goes on a 50x100 base. and if it isnt FAQ'd that way, no one is going to complain about your conversion being on a bigger base than normal.

Guanyin
24-12-2008, 17:43
it is harsh, but i feel it is fair. he himself said that he is putting it on a 50x50 base because the 50x100 base will be a disadvantage. not because the 50x50 base will look better/makes more sense/whatever.

shouldnt you aspire to convert something to NOT give yourself an advantage? and if you think about how chariots/corpse carts are modeled it will be FAQ'd most likely that it goes on a 50x100 base. and if it isnt FAQ'd that way, no one is going to complain about your conversion being on a bigger base than normal.

I'll complain, it aint on a correct base. It is likely that it will end up on a 100x50 base, but likely does not mean it WILL. I could easily see it on a 50x50 base, my first thoughts of modelling fitted fine on the standard monster base.

Dread the idea that GW wont release a model sometimes soon, and I bet no faq either.

Condottiere
24-12-2008, 21:17
My opinion says 2"x4", if steeds are pulling it along.

TheMav80
25-12-2008, 00:21
What size is the Cauldron of Blood? Or the Empire War Altar? Or the Casket of Souls?

I honestly have no idea.

If they are all chariot bases, you would have strong evidence for the Chaos Shrine to be on a chariot base. If not, well it all goes up in the air again.

Also, whats the speed on the Chaos War Shrine? I thought it was a 4. Doesn't sound like it is being pulled by steeds. Maybe shetland ponies.

nosferatu1001
25-12-2008, 01:22
Chaos steeds pulling a huge construction made to honour the gods probably arent going to go too quickly ;)

Walter is 50x100, Casket is the same (or as near as damnit, i believe it is one complete base rather than being stuck on a 50x100) and the cauldron is - not sure.

The designers notes have it being pulled by steeds, the picture is on a 50x100 - do it on a 50x100, make it look cool, and NOONE would then complain.

Fellblade
25-12-2008, 01:32
The designers notes have it being pulled by steeds, the picture is on a 50x100 - do it on a 50x100, make it look cool, and NOONE would then complain.
Or if you're looking to be different with only a 50mm flank, then make it 100x50.

nosferatu1001
25-12-2008, 01:40
True, that would work as well

Anyways, bed calls - Merry Christmas everyone :)

Neckutter
25-12-2008, 18:13
casket of souls fits on a 80mmx80 mm. this means 4 of the "regiment bases" green stuffed together. i tried to do something with cav bases, but 75mm frontage wasnt quite enough.

i play TK and i based mine, because even though it doesnt move, i felt it needed a base.

note that CoS DOESNT come with a base, so you do not need to base it. it was just me being obsessive.

Borthcollective
26-12-2008, 18:29
What size is the Cauldron of Blood? Or the Empire War Altar? Or the Casket of Souls?

I honestly have no idea.

If they are all chariot bases, you would have strong evidence for the Chaos Shrine to be on a chariot base. If not, well it all goes up in the air again.

Also, whats the speed on the Chaos War Shrine? I thought it was a 4. Doesn't sound like it is being pulled by steeds. Maybe shetland ponies.

Cauldron doesn't move, so the base is irrelavant
Casket doesn't move, so the base is irrelavant
Dwarf Anvil doesn't move, so the base is irrelavant

Empire War Alter is 50X100 is drawn by 2 steeds and is an alter. I think we have a winner. I'm of the 50X50 is not cool crowd.

Fellblade
26-12-2008, 18:37
Cauldron doesn't move, so the base is irrelavant
Casket doesn't move, so the base is irrelavant
Dwarf Anvil doesn't move, so the base is irrelavant

Ranges are measured to/from the cauldron so the base size matters.
Ranges are measured to/from the casket so the base size matters.
Ranges are measured to/from the dwarf anvil so the base size matters.

GodlessM
26-12-2008, 18:43
The War Shrine is most likely on a chariot base, but I would be ok with someone using a monster base too.

Avian
26-12-2008, 19:41
Why bother modeling something up on a 50 x 50 mm base when we're almost certain the official model will be 50 x 100 mm? Once that is out your model is no longer appropriate.




Ranges are measured to/from the cauldron so the base size matters.
Ranges are measured to/from the casket so the base size matters.
Ranges are measured to/from the dwarf anvil so the base size matters.
That is the case with war machines too, but they don't have a defined base size and yet we manage.

Guanyin
26-12-2008, 21:08
Cauldron doesn't move, so the base is irrelavant
Casket doesn't move, so the base is irrelavant
Dwarf Anvil doesn't move, so the base is irrelavant

Empire War Alter is 50X100 is drawn by 2 steeds and is an alter. I think we have a winner. I'm of the 50X50 is not cool crowd.

War Altar is intended to be a chariot, so it aint that suprising its on a chariot base. Chaos Shrine aint a chariot.

And, hrm, what stops a Cauldron from moving?

Note: Most people where I play have bases on their war machines, and imo, all models should have a base.

nosferatu1001
26-12-2008, 21:11
And also - the cauldron of Blood most definitely DOES move.

Change in the new army book.

Borthcollective
26-12-2008, 21:28
War Altar is intended to be a chariot, so it aint that suprising its on a chariot base. Chaos Shrine aint a chariot.

And, hrm, what stops a Cauldron from moving?

Note: Most people where I play have bases on their war machines, and imo, all models should have a base.

Yep looks like I screwed up on the Cauldron moving.

GodlessM
26-12-2008, 21:40
Yep, its just like the hellcannon, Valkia and Troll sp. character. No one knows. yey!

Valkia is on a 25mm base and Throgg is on a 50mm base.

Neckutter
26-12-2008, 21:45
throgg is on a 50mm base, where trolls are on 40mm bases?
i dont see where you get that.

GodlessM
26-12-2008, 21:58
Because he is a monster character. Look at the Doombull for instance.

Avian
26-12-2008, 22:59
Doombull is on a 40 mm base...

Draco Argentum
27-12-2008, 01:25
it is harsh, but i feel it is fair. he himself said that he is putting it on a 50x50 base because the 50x100 base will be a disadvantage. not because the 50x50 base will look better/makes more sense/whatever.

By the same token, isn't it unsportsmanlike to demand that it be modeled in a way that benefits 'you' (ie his opponent)? As long as its a legal base complaining just seems to be an attempt to pressure chaos players into giving other armies an advantage.

Is anyone here honestly willing to be a bad sport about such a small thing? Let the WoC players use any legal base.

Neckutter
27-12-2008, 01:31
you're right, draco.
ill make my chaos shrine on a 20mm base, and no one should complain.

GodlessM
27-12-2008, 01:44
By the same token, isn't it unsportsmanlike to demand that it be modeled in a way that benefits 'you' (ie his opponent)? As long as its a legal base complaining just seems to be an attempt to pressure chaos players into giving other armies an advantage.

Is anyone here honestly willing to be a bad sport about such a small thing? Let the WoC players use any legal base.

That's the thing, people are saying it's not a legal base.


Doombull is on a 40 mm base...

Oh right, thought it was 50mm. In that case I would say Throgg is on a 40mm base.

Guanyin
27-12-2008, 10:15
That's the thing, people are saying it's not a legal base.


How anyone can claim they KNOW the legal base is beyond me. The legal base size is decided by GW, either from what base comes with the model, or if they announce its size in a publication. They havnt done either. It might be dumb and a bit rulestwisting and unsportsmanlike, but technically you could put your shrine on a 20mm base. Or a 200mm base. Getting out of the game store/tournie alive is another matter.

Personally I feel it should be on a chariot base or a 50x50 monster base. What GW release will more likely be on a chariot base.

Neckutter
27-12-2008, 18:57
people could probably get away with using a 50mm base, but they will most likely run into a player or two who want it on a bigger base. and then they would have to convert their existing model. why not save yourself the hassle and just make it on a chariot base from the beginning?

EDIT: the point is this: you could make it on whatever base you want. HOWEVER you have to keep in mind what it will most likely be based on(a chariot-like contraption), and you also need to think about being fair and honest player.

Draco Argentum
28-12-2008, 04:35
EDIT: the point is this: you could make it on whatever base you want. HOWEVER you have to keep in mind what it will most likely be based on(a chariot-like contraption), and you also need to think about being fair and honest player.

I agree, to ensure that models are based correctly we should insinuate that people who use a base we disagree with are dishonest. Thats the good sportsman's way to do it.

Hmm, maybe not. 50x50 is sound from a rules standpoint. Calling someone doing that names just makes you a bully.

Condottiere
28-12-2008, 06:49
Bronzino's Galloper Guns variant?

popisdead
04-01-2009, 16:37
when the model comes out, it will be a chariot base. Do what you want now (you're kinda powergaming here) but wait and see.

Lordmonkey
04-01-2009, 22:59
A little cupboard with a crayon doodle of Khorne blu-tak'd to the inside is technically a shrine to Khorne, albiet a crap one. Could I glue it to a marauder's banner pole and call that a chaos warshrine? By the rules, it seems, yes, but I would never do it...

I personally wouldn't care either way, but when the model comes out I expect that it will be on a chariot base. This assumption is only made because it behaves in a similar manner to the corpse cart.

Neckutter
05-01-2009, 03:55
I agree, to ensure that models are based correctly we should insinuate that people who use a base we disagree with are dishonest. Thats the good sportsman's way to do it.

Hmm, maybe not. 50x50 is sound from a rules standpoint. Calling someone doing that names just makes you a bully.

im glad you agree with my point that it should be on a chariot base. i knew you would wise up.

Necromancy Black
05-01-2009, 04:13
Is there even planned release for a warshrine model?

Also, when it does come out, I hope like hell it ends up being 50x50 :p

Neckutter
05-01-2009, 04:15
those are gonna be some small chaos horses dragging an even smaller cart. chaos horses barely fit onto 25x50mm as it is.

Draco Argentum
05-01-2009, 10:11
im glad you agree with my point that it should be on a chariot base. i knew you would wise up.

Well that was quite a non sequitur.