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giner
22-12-2008, 12:27
Just wondering why WoC have some kind of production line of Swords of Might and lances, that their characters can't have or only one can have. Also why can heroes and lords have flails but not warriors or chosen?

Is there any real reason? Or is it just forgetfulness, balance or oversights.

Eta
22-12-2008, 12:51
The Sword of Might is a common magical item and can therefore only be taken once per army. Concerning the lances, I think that flails are almost the same in effect. You lose +1 armour save because you cannot use a shield but you have the strength bonus even when you are charged.

Greetings
Eta

enyoss
22-12-2008, 12:53
The point regarding Ensorcelled Weapons (or free `Swords of Might') is purely a game balance issue. It seems they wanted to give Chaos Knights S5 and the option for lances, without the lances giving them that crucial S7 on the charge. It's a pity that in trying to do this they've inadvertently created a fair amount of confusion about the interaction of Ensorcelled Weapons with spells such as Vauls Unmaking, items like the Talisman of Hoeth and even with the lance upgrade itself!

In hindsight I guess it might have been better to say that hand weapons give +1S to Chaos Knights and that all their attacks count as magical. That would give them magic attacks with lances and would mean their +1S bonus wouldn't be affected by magic weapon destroying/negating spells/items, while keeping them at S6 with their lances on the charge. Assuming that is the way games development wanted it to be played of course, who knows :D!

Cheers,

enyoss

EvC
22-12-2008, 13:25
My first game with Warriors was against dirty Daemons, my Knights' first charge was against a Bloodthirster with Obsidian Armour. As nasty as it was for my guys I'd have felt like I was rules lawyering if I'd tried to claim that they weren't magic weapons when their rules do call them as such, so it was down to S4 for my elites. Butchered!!

Avian
22-12-2008, 13:33
Is there any real reason? Or is it just forgetfulness, balance or oversights.
Wanting to keep old models legal is probably a good part of the reason (5th edition and older knights had lances), then there is the practical limit on how many weapon options they can shove into a plastic kit and finally there is the fact that having few mundane weapon options encourages more use of magic weapons.

I for one don't think it would be a problem to let Marauders (both types) get the option for morning stars, let Warriors and Chosen get options for morning stars and flails, and let fighter characters take morning stars, ensorcelled weapons and lances. If you look at the new 40K Marine Codex, their characters get heaps of options, allowing for some nice conversion work.

But it's not a big deal.

Master Stark
23-12-2008, 10:49
In hindsight I guess it might have been better to say that hand weapons give +1S to Chaos Knights and that all their attacks count as magical. That would give them magic attacks with lances and would mean their +1S bonus wouldn't be affected by magic weapon destroying/negating spells/items, while keeping them at S6 with their lances on the charge. Assuming that is the way games development wanted it to be played of course, who knows :D!

Would have been easier again to just give the Knights the option for spears, rather than lances.

W0lf
23-12-2008, 22:55
Its almost as weird as a Daemon prince being stuck at S5 (yes less then goblins with a big axe)

Then again;

Why dont chaos lords cause fear when knights do?
Why do weak wizards challenge characters like vampires?
Why dont the Gods love their children enough to give them a real ward save like their daemonic brethren?

OldMaster
23-12-2008, 23:46
Why can't a Chaos Lord/Champion have an ensorcelled weapon, or a lance?
Why do the Chaos Gods instantly kill any horse you might own before they graduate you to a Chosen?
Why can't Chaos Lords/Heroes roll on the EotG table on the start of the battle while Chosen can?

SuperArchMegalon
24-12-2008, 03:56
Balance, balance, balance! Besides, why would you want a Lance when you could get a Flail?

Avian
24-12-2008, 10:24
In order to carry the Enchanted shield in your other hand?

SuperArchMegalon
24-12-2008, 14:15
Ah, there it is. Forgot the 1H/2H dilemma.

SonofUltramar
25-12-2008, 22:33
Having only just picjed up the WoC book I have to say I never really thought about any of these issues and still think they are of little consequence in the grand scheme of things. The simple option is game balance as has been said but then again they would have been nice from a modelling perspective.

Cognitave
26-12-2008, 04:49
Chaos lords figure if Sauron swings around a flail, they might as well too.

"Hell, as long as I don't have a ring, I'm good to go!"

Goose
26-12-2008, 04:51
Why do weak wizards challenge characters like vampires?

This one has made sense to me. It is about glory and looking strong. I imagine the night before the battle all the Chaos people drinking a lot of alcohol around a camp fire cheering for glory and the dark gods. Then cheering that again in a mad drunk frenzy when in battle when accepting the challenge.

Or never refusing a challenge because they are living up to their scary and tough image.

Firstborn
26-12-2008, 05:58
Dunno about you but Vampire are scary and tough too. Even if I had my rifle I wouldn't be challenging aa Vampire to a dual. ;)

Master Stark
26-12-2008, 07:29
This one has made sense to me. It is about glory and looking strong. I imagine the night before the battle all the Chaos people drinking a lot of alcohol around a camp fire cheering for glory and the dark gods. Then cheering that again in a mad drunk frenzy when in battle when accepting the challenge.

Or never refusing a challenge because they are living up to their scary and tough image.

I always figured it was just that most lowly characters have no idea who they are messing with when they challenge someone like a vampire or chaos lord.

sulla
26-12-2008, 07:36
I always figured it was just that most lowly characters have no idea who they are messing with when they challenge someone like a vampire or chaos lord.

"Rrrarg! I am Ulthreg the despoiler! Sorceror, prophet and gateway to my gods! I challenge you! I shall slay you and lay your guts out for the gods to see! Oh, but first, can you beat me in a fight? If so, I'd prefer my lowly squad leader to fight you instead. Can't serve my gods if I get hurt...";):D

Condottiere
26-12-2008, 08:05
"Let the squad leader win his spurs, besides you are not worthy of my attention yet."

Storak
26-12-2008, 08:28
hahahaha

all these question expose your little understanding of the ways of the dark gods...

hahahaha (more insane laughter after the break..)

Chicago Slim
26-12-2008, 15:36
Exactly, Storak!

Look, the Ensorcelled Weapons of Chosen are not swords of might: they're regular swords, touched by the power of the gods -- the Sword of Might is crafted by a mortal servant of those gods, instead.

Clearly, it's that Knights never get promoted to Exalted-- it's kind of an "also ran"-- you had a good run, kid, and you kick butt pretty well, but you're getting old, now, and you're just not Champion material. Here, have a horse, and a special weapon, as your concillation prize...

Goruax
27-12-2008, 04:42
I also don't like the 'step forward, step back' way the 'better' units of chaos get.
It does seem strange that Chaos Lords, these awesome figures of terror and destruction...are not as scary when you're face to face with them than as a guy he can more than easily bitch-slap out of the saddle.

"Ahhhh! Some knights! Crap, I'll just fight this enormous guy behind me who seems to inspire fear and respect out of the guys who are smaller than him, but twice my size...phew, what a lucky break!"
~ Halberdier Joe.