PDA

View Full Version : Comp-Friendly DoC



Jericho
23-12-2008, 00:07
OK so everyone has a massive hate-on for this army. That much is certain and probably not going to change. I really feel bad for people that play the army because they had an old Be'lakor army or simply like the models. A lot of people take a lot of flak regardless of their motivation for playing the list.

I was thinking of just brainstorming some ways to keep the army competitive without making people want to ram your Palanquin of Nurgle down your throat. Sideways.

For starters, mixing things up a bit would be nice. Everyone taking 2 units of Horrors, Flamers and Flesh Hounds accompanied by a massive block of Plaguebearers w/ Herald is pretty tiresome. We all know this. The anti-magic banner is pretty hideous too, and probably not necessary if you have a lot of Tzeentch or Khorne units (sorry don't remember the name of this item). But what are some ways to play a reasonably powerful DoC list without being over the top?

Please don't let this thread turn into a huge debate about whether the army is broken or not. The list can be very reasonable played certain ways, or pretty insane taken to certain extremes. Just like every other list. I'm just interested in what people would consider to be reasonable DoC armies for tournament composition scoring purposes.

nagash42
23-12-2008, 00:32
maybe go for the old mainstay rule they had? so you couldn't take lot of flesh hounds without taking lots of bloodletters? Maybe just take a demonprince instead of a greater demon?

aforce808
23-12-2008, 00:34
Unfortunately, I think you will probably take a comp hit regardless of you army composition when playing Daemons. Personally, I think you should take what you like, as long as you aren't just min maxing. Oh, and take only one unit of Flamers. ;)

sephiroth87
23-12-2008, 04:32
I think your best bet is to go Mono-God to get comp points. Most of the ire that the daemons draw is that players (me included) cherry pick the good units from each group and end up with a list that looks the same. Play a list that focuses on one god and takes only units from that god (I guess furies are okay, too).

That would be my suggestion. Most of these players that I have played in tournaments have gotten pretty good comp scores.

Thurizdan
23-12-2008, 05:09
Exactly, I don't think mixed gods DoC feels like an army. Pure Nurgle etc feels like an achievement and has personallity. People respect this.

Kalec
23-12-2008, 06:16
Take a daemon prince and no other characters. No flamers, no horrors, no flesh hounds. And no siren standard. You should do fine on comp.

Latro_
23-12-2008, 18:13
I'v played a couple of games with that exact army you said, 2 blocks of plague bearers with pala herald, block of horrors, 2 units of flamers a unit of flesh hounds...

I'm fairly new to fantasy an have me ass handed to me twice. So they can't be all powerful. Mindyou my mate was using a pretty well made WoC army. So far my experience of daemons has been nothing like the hype/hate i read on the internet :s

theunwantedbeing
23-12-2008, 18:52
Take a daemon prince.
Avoid multiples of any non core choice.
Dont take a Nurgle BsB, and certainly dont take the banner of sundering.

Keep to the god speciifc numbers as bets you can as well.
Or at the very least multiples of the numbers of the gods.
eg.
Tzeentch 9,18,27,36
Khorne 8,16,24,32
Nurgle 7,14,21,28
Slaanesh 6,12,18,24

Keeping a nice variety of troops helps greatly as well.
Sticking to 2 gods that dont hate each other too much is a good idea.
eg.
Khorne hates Slaanesh
Tzeentch hates Nurgle
And the other way of course!, so anything other than that is a fluffy combination.

Scott
24-12-2008, 04:51
I'm curious what you guys would think about this. Read this as if you were judging soft scores in a tournament.

Essentially a nurgle army.
3 heralds and epidemius
3 blocks of 14 pleaguebearers
2 units of 3 nurglings
2 units of 5 furies
and one unit of 2 beasts

Essentially 3 levels of magic no multiple gifts the only "cheesy" thing is epidemius I think. But when you are running this kind of list it's almost implied that you'd have him or at least a greater daemon. (there'd be a bsb with hellfire banner and 1 staff of nurgle but that's it)

Anyways I'm just kind of curious how you'd mark this for comp.

lokigod
24-12-2008, 17:39
daemons get a lot of hate period.... there main problem is there are players out there that cant understand a 200 point block of pb with a another 100 point herald should own there 150 point blocks.


There beatable but in the right hands there just sick and nasty. I am 35-2-0 with new book and thats why im retiring them. Thats after I even started just using mono nurgle.....


Anyway here is a nice fluffy army that runs well for me at 1000 points

2 x herald of nurgle with always strike last skill
2 x 14 pb with standard
3 or 4 bases of nurglings
2 beast of nurgle

hmm epi and gd are not needed in any list except nurgle magic heavy period. 4 heralds or 3 heralds are alot more nasty than a gd ever thought of being.

theunwantedbeing
24-12-2008, 17:50
I'm curious what you guys would think about this. Read this as if you were judging soft scores in a tournament.

Essentially a nurgle army.
3 heralds and epidemius
3 blocks of 14 pleaguebearers
2 units of 3 nurglings
2 units of 5 furies
and one unit of 2 beasts

Essentially 3 levels of magic no multiple gifts the only "cheesy" thing is epidemius I think. But when you are running this kind of list it's almost implied that you'd have him or at least a greater daemon. (there'd be a bsb with hellfire banner and 1 staff of nurgle but that's it)

Anyways I'm just kind of curious how you'd mark this for comp.

Max character's, min core.
Not a huge attempt to keep the god specific numbers in the list.
I wouldnt give this an overly high score really.

Although if you'de taken units of 7 where possible and docked epidemius (as he doesnt have a unit of his own to sit in) and taken a full compliment of 77 plaguebearer's in total I'de give the army a very high comp score.

MalusCalibur
24-12-2008, 19:00
Another thread on this? Alright, here's my opinion again.

You shouldnt feel guilty or have to mitigate the choices YOU want to make regarding your army just because of the mass hatred Daemons have generated because of a few broken builds-the same that most armies have access to (Empire Steam Tank/War Altar, High Elves double Dragons, etc etc).

Take the units you want. Take the units you like, whether it's because you like the models, the fluff, or whatever. Do not let anybody tell you that you can't take something. Just avoid the REALLY broken army lists (muliple Plaguebearer blocks with BSB/Heralds+multiple Flesh Hounds+mass Flamers I believe is the big complaint). I'd also steer clear of the Special Characters, but Id say that for any army, not just Daemons.

Do not feel guilty just because you play Daemons, regardless what other people might try to tell you.


MalusCalibur

Dooks Dizzo
24-12-2008, 20:56
Here's what I would run:

Hero
Herald of Tzeench
Dispel scroll thing

Core
Plague Bearers x 20
Full Command
Icon of Eternal Virtulence

Plague Bearers x20
Full Command
Icon of Sleeping Decay

Bloodletters x 20
Full Command
Icon of Endless War

Bloodletters x 20
Full Command
Icon of Skull Totem

Daemonettes x 20
Full Command
Banner of Ecstacy

Daemonettes x 20
Full Command
Siren Standard

Horrors of Tzeench x 10
Full Command
Icon of Change

Horrors of Tzeench x 10
Full Command
Icon of Sorcery

Ravenheart
24-12-2008, 21:39
There is a few ways you could achive that goal.

The obvious one would be to run the less popular choices such as the Daemon Prince, Beast of Nurgle, Nurglings, Screamers and so on.

Also themed or mono god armies show that you care more about the lore and army background than about winning your games, which is always a plus.

Lastly, put extra effort in painting your army. Personally I really like to play against well painted arimes, no matter if the list is highly compeditive or friendly.

Dooks Dizzo
24-12-2008, 21:55
I actually like my little 'all core' list. I think it could be quite competitive. You have decent anti magic, lots of static combat res and rather good combat from a few of the units.

I would set them up in a reverse wedge formation, basically a 'V' with the slowest units in the middle and the faster out on the edges. Anyone attacking your middle would be in danger of getting flanked.

fubukii
25-12-2008, 07:48
take the following units for a comp friendly list

Daemon prince
Bloodletters or nettes
nurglings, seekers
fiends or crushers

isidril93
25-12-2008, 11:31
my list is:
dp, khorne + slaanesh herads
letters+nettes
hounds
fiends+crushers

hardly broken if i do say so myself

Latro_
25-12-2008, 12:42
Another thread on this? Alright, here's my opinion again.

You shouldnt feel guilty or have to mitigate the choices YOU want to make regarding your army just because of the mass hatred Daemons have generated because of a few broken builds-the same that most armies have access to (Empire Steam Tank/War Altar, High Elves double Dragons, etc etc).

Take the units you want. Take the units you like, whether it's because you like the models, the fluff, or whatever. Do not let anybody tell you that you can't take something. Just avoid the REALLY broken army lists (muliple Plaguebearer blocks with BSB/Heralds+multiple Flesh Hounds+mass Flamers I believe is the big complaint). I'd also steer clear of the Special Characters, but Id say that for any army, not just Daemons.

Do not feel guilty just because you play Daemons, regardless what other people might try to tell you.


MalusCalibur


here here! thats on of the most sensible posts i'v read in a while.

If you liek the fluff or the models then go for it! Like in my army yes, its the blocks of PB one but bah! I had 36 plague bearers in a box from a deathguard army I was gonna do,,,, I have 10 flamers but nah again! I like shooty stuff i'm a veteran 40k player! Since getting into fantasy over the last month i'v read so much whindging and what have you about 'broken' armies. I'm actually starting to worry about playing pickup games with people i dont know at my local GW now...

Lord Aislinn
26-12-2008, 09:59
I'v played a couple of games with that exact army you said, 2 blocks of plague bearers with pala herald, block of horrors, 2 units of flamers a unit of flesh hounds...

I'm fairly new to fantasy an have me ass handed to me twice. So they can't be all powerful. Mindyou my mate was using a pretty well made WoC army. So far my experience of daemons has been nothing like the hype/hate i read on the internet :s


Is you're getting your ass handed to you with a list like that against the weakest army list in this edition, go play a game like 40k where the need for the use of a brain is un-neccessary, and an army list with 6 fexes and 2 tyrants or whatever it is'll win games no matter who uses the list. Though I wouldn't have thought a brain was truly needed in that game. Basically, when you lose, don't accept it and just try again with the same list, which I see done so often and is the reason that some people's skill in this game never progresses - you have to be overly critical about everything you did wrong and change it.

Honestly, do that with a DoC army and you'll be nigh unstoppable.

Lord Aislinn
26-12-2008, 10:10
Here's what I would run:

Hero
Herald of Tzeench
Dispel scroll thing

Core
Plague Bearers x 20
Full Command
Icon of Eternal Virtulence

Plague Bearers x20
Full Command
Icon of Sleeping Decay

Bloodletters x 20
Full Command
Icon of Endless War

Bloodletters x 20
Full Command
Icon of Skull Totem

Daemonettes x 20
Full Command
Banner of Ecstacy

Daemonettes x 20
Full Command
Siren Standard

Horrors of Tzeench x 10
Full Command
Icon of Change

Horrors of Tzeench x 10
Full Command
Icon of Sorcery

I'm sorry but that wouldn't be an effective list imo. Plaguebearers and the only core unit that isn't worth their points unless they're join by a herald, in which case they should each cost 234 points each.

i'm guessing that that's a 2k list, and at 2k I see absoloutely no reason to not run a greater demon. They are imba.

I believe that they are strongest to weakest in this order:

Keeper of Secrets
Lord of Change
Bloodthirster
Great Unclean One

The keeper of secrets is a potent magic caster, very fast, can beat characters up in CC, and has some filthy gifts.

Lord of change is the best magic caster non-special character in the game after slaans, and they get some pretty nifty gifts.

bloodthirsters are pretty much fool proof. They kill cavalry v. fast, and will probably kill enough to counter static combat ress if you're daft enough to charge infantry.

GUO are worth their salt in a full nurgle army with epidemus, but if you're taking a mixed list, leave him on GWs stock shelf.

The Bloodletter standard that lets them march within 8'' is quite cool against elven armies that have lots of march blockers, as is the +d6'' charge range one, though I could probably leave that one for always marching unless I wanted to quickly close with dwarfs.

But what I'd basically say is, just because you don't want your DoC to be a dirty cheesey army, doesn't mean you shouldn't act like every other general does - being competant. So still take the most point effective options, just don't do full nurgle or slaanesh armys.

(Or slaanesh armys with 2 units of flamers :P)

EDIT: Fixed a spelling