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FatOlaf
23-12-2008, 10:49
Okay So I had a Tyrant with Siege breaker about to squish a Plague Monk Champion in a challenge.

The Tyrant lands 4 wounds, and then multiplies each of these into D3 wounds, even though this was a 1 wound champion.

Should the CR have been:

A) 1 wound with 3 overkill

or

B) 1 wound with the max of 5 overkill (using the D3 wounds ability)

?

nosferatu1001
23-12-2008, 10:56
the multiply only takes effect up to the maximum wounds on a model, in this case 1

So you would get CR4, 1 wound and the 3 additional wounds you caused. You cannot cause multiple wounds where the model only has 1.

This was also answered in a seperate question about multiple wounds, although not specifically in a challenge. There is a much better explanation there!

Necromancy Black
23-12-2008, 11:01
EDIT:: Reading the rules again I'm not actually 100% if I'm right or if nosferatu1001 is. Multiwound rules does say you can not inflict more wounds then on a units profile, but that's for out of challanges. The rules for challanges say that any excess wounds scored when fighting a challange to count, but has no example for any multiwounding attacks. The only example given doesn't actually how many hits were inflicted, just the number of wounds.

EDIT EDIT:: The FAQ clears nothing up. For now, I would go with caution and follow what nosferatu1001 said. Below is teh what I origanally posted and the way me and everyone I've played with has always done. It's always possible we've been playing this wrong, but then me may be right. Either way, what nosferatu1001 said has more backing in the rules. Still, this is once again a situation that GW has not worded in a fully clear manner :(

You multiply each wound, add them together then cap it at 6 CR (1 wound + maximun of 5 overkill). This will give you between 4 and 12 wounds, capping at 6 for overkill.

Technically, this happens outside of combat. One wound each on a plauge monk, then each model wounds loses D3 wounds. You don't bother rolling as outside of challanges you don't count multiwounds past the number of wounds each current model has. But in a challange you up to five more point for CR, so you would then roll for each multiwound to work out overkill.

The easiest way to for this out is to treat anyone fighting in a challange as though they had an additional 5 wounds that can be inflicted onto them.

FatOlaf
23-12-2008, 11:07
This was also answered in a seperate question about multiple wounds, although not specifically in a challenge. There is a much better explanation there!

Yes but it's the fact it's in the challenge that made the Ogre player argue that the D3 wounds would come into place..



The easiest way to for this out is to treat anyone fighting in a challange as though they had an additional 5 wounds that can be inflicted onto them.

Which we do when he landed 4 wounds in the first place, hence his overkill of 3, what I cant see is why the D3 wounds should come into place on a single wound model even in a challenge, he has the chance to get +5 Cr as it is even without the D3 wounds ability, seems like he gets double the chance which he would not have got outside a challenge...

FatOlaf
23-12-2008, 14:38
@ Necro - thanks for going over that again, yes it does seem like it is open to abuse down to poor wording again...

Neckutter
23-12-2008, 20:11
in a challenge, our gaming group has always played it that the maximum you can get is +6 CR. 1 for the initial wound, and 5 for the overkill. reading the rules, i would assume we have been playing this wrong. however it would make any weapon that did D3 or D6 wounds worthless. "oh your guy causes D6 wounds? my champion accepts your challenge!"

stripsteak
23-12-2008, 20:39
They do lose some of their 'power' against a single wound model, but the multi wound weapons aren't worthless, given a tournament or overall aspect. they will eventually come against a unit that has multiple wounds. in this case they will get more value. and even against just a 2W model they start showing more usefulness.

2 wound model in challenge. 3 wounds are unsaved.
normal weapon - CR 3 (2 wounds+1 overkill)
d3 weapon - CR 3-6 (2 wounds to kill, with up to 4 from overkill, each wound can expand to maximum 2 wounds)
d6 weapon - CR 3-6 (same as the d3 weapon but you are more likely to get into the higher area)

Ganymede
23-12-2008, 21:45
Page 31 - "If the model has only one wound on its profile, there is no need to [roll the d3 or d6], as models cannot suffer more wounds than they have on their profile. The victim dies instantly and any excess wounds are wasted."

Page 77 - "...any excess wounds scored when fighting a challenge do count towards the combat result, even though they are not actually inflicted."

While you are not actually inflicting any wounds on a challenged champion with your extra d3 and d6 and those wounds would normally be wasted, they still count toward the combat result.


seems like he gets double the chance which he would not have got outside a challenge...


Remember, this works for excess wounds from other sources too. A fourth wound inflicted on a three-wound character would also be wasted, but it is still counted in a challenge. During a challenge, we have an opportunity like no other to crush the morale of our foes. Eviscerating a puny champion with the flail of skulls is sure to unnerve even the most stalwart of enemies.

Fellblade
23-12-2008, 21:55
While you are not actually inflicting any wounds on a challenged champion with your extra d3 and d6 and those wounds would normally be wasted, they still count toward the combat result.
That's the way we always understood it... not sure if its correct by the strict RAW.

Killing Blow is another odd duck in challenges. If I have a 4 wound model that is hit with a single killing blow, does he count for 4 CR or only one? If I'm not mistaken KB says something to the effect that "if a model takes a wound from a killing blow, remove it" saying nothing about it losing all further wounds (unlike str7 vs chariots.)

Djekar
24-12-2008, 04:44
I agree with Neckutter - but mostly because that's the way we've always played, more than by a strict RAW interpretation. I think that Ganymede has the right of it, but Nos does bring up interesting points as well.

Fellblade: I have always played that the character lost all of his remaining wounds from the first KB and each additional wound (KB or not) counted only as 1. I thought that I read it somewhere, but I am away from my sources right now, and so I only have a hazy memory to go on, sorry.

~Macaroni

nosferatu1001
24-12-2008, 08:30
AS you quoted, KB seems to indicate you only get a single wound for CR, plus any overkill. There is a suggestion in the vamp FAQ (for red fury i believe) which suggests you do count the wounds, as the vamp gets the extra attacks for the wounds. this however appears to be another "against RAW with no reason given" answer

A lot of people generally say that it counts as all remaining wounds, however there is nothing RAW about it - it's a house rule. I would always play that hitting the character such that he is eviscerated in a single blow is as frightening as a longer, slower combat and so deserves the full CR for remaining wounds :D

(ps Djekar thanks for editing sig quote, I look slightly less stupid now!)

FatOlaf
24-12-2008, 12:31
Page 31 - "If the model has only one wound on its profile, there is no need to [roll the d3 or d6], as models cannot suffer more wounds than they have on their profile. The victim dies instantly and any excess wounds are wasted."

Okay so that's the rule for single wound creatures


Page 77 - "...any excess wounds scored when fighting a challenge do count towards the combat result, even though they are not actually inflicted."


While you are not actually inflicting any wounds on a challenged champion with your extra d3 and d6 and those wounds would normally be wasted, they still count toward the combat result.

The excess wounds would be the 4 wounds he inflicted from his attacks before any weapon ability, which would normally be lost in normal combat. Why should he get those wounds and then the chance to get extra (ie the last 2 available overkill) when this weapon should not have any extra effect.....Seems wrong to me..

DeathlessDraich
24-12-2008, 13:09
1 wound and 6 overkills is my short answer .
No excuse me while I stuff myself with turkey:p

Ganymede
24-12-2008, 16:43
The excess wounds would be the 4 wounds he inflicted from his attacks before any weapon ability, which would normally be lost in normal combat. Why should he get those wounds and then the chance to get extra (ie the last 2 available overkill) when this weapon should not have any extra effect.....Seems wrong to me..

Aside from the rules saying that the challenger get those excess wounds, it is also important to note that GW is clearly into the idea of killing, destroying, and completely eviscerating your foe in a challenge. While it seems wrong to you, it is the bees knees over at GW central.

Page 77 - "If the troops see their [challenged] champion crushed to a bloody pulp before their eyes, they will inevitably get a bit upset..."

Page 77 - "[T]he overkill rule means that it is an advantage to crush a challenged enemy as overwhelmingly as possible."


The only reason we don't roll that d3 or d6 is because, gamewise, it doesn't do anything. Under normal circumstances, there is no distinction between just-barely-killing and annihilating a single wound foe; only one model dies in either case. As the rules say, that extra effort into killing your target (those extra wounds) is wasted. In a challenge, things are different.

AMWOOD co
26-12-2008, 05:24
The issue with killing blow was answered, if I recall correctly, in one of the old Annual/Chronicle books. The conclusion there was never rewritten, however, even though killing blow is exactly the same.

It stated that the first killing blow scored for all remaining wounds and each subsequent one (or simultaneous one) against the same model in a challenge was simply 1 overkill point but that your foe still received no armour (no regeneration can be added for the current edition). All non-killing blow wounds may still be blocked by armour (so don't forget your mount) and still count for overkill if you haven't reached that +5.

The common arguement I see coming is that it was a 6th edition FAQ and that it does not apply to 7th. If it still is coming up, however, shouldn't we take a note of precidence (is that the spelling?) based on what was said before?

Fellblade
26-12-2008, 07:28
The issue with killing blow was answered, if I recall correctly, in one of the old Annual/Chronicle books.
Anything written before 7th edition is void. Rules change, that's why its "7th Edition" and not "version 6.1" or something.
The fact that the "FAQ" info wasn't reprinted could also indicate it wasn't valid anymore... the argument is, if it was valid they'd have reprinted it, right?

Short answer: There is no answer.

Given the way they spelled out "lose all wounds" in other places and is missing from KB seems to hint its only worth 1 wound. Wasn't it in a Phil Kelly interview where he said something like "players should assume we meant exactly what we wrote and didn't forget anything or not notice something"? I forget the exact line, but it was at the same time he blamed players for the rules being bad... "why bother to write clear rules if people are going to rules-lawyer over everything anyway?"

Condottiere
26-12-2008, 08:00
Which is why you write clear rules in the first place. Curfew is at nine o'clock, means you have to be at home by nine, not quarter past nine. You're grounded for a month, will have certain clear exceptions.

Chicago Slim
26-12-2008, 15:25
The excess wounds would be the 4 wounds he inflicted from his attacks before any weapon ability, which would normally be lost in normal combat. Why should he get those wounds and then the chance to get extra (ie the last 2 available overkill) when this weapon should not have any extra effect.....Seems wrong to me..

I'm going to turn this around on you: you're already agreeing to count the fact that he hit and wounded you, even though your guy is already dead from the first wound, because this is a challenge.

So, since you've agreed that it's correct to count these wounds, how do YOU justify ignoring the effect of his weapon (causes d3 wounds per wound)??

Ganymede
26-12-2008, 16:32
Given the way they spelled out "lose all wounds" in other places and is missing from KB seems to hint its only worth 1 wound.

I don't think this is a safe assumption by any stretch of the imagination. GW is not renowned for their consistency, and they are also plagued by bad editing/proofing. It'd take a grand leap of faith to divine GW's intentions here with just an omission.

Negativemoney
26-12-2008, 16:44
In this situation yes you do multiply wounds in a challenge up to the maximum overkill of +5. This is regardless of how many wounds the model starts with as this is spelled out on page 77 of the BRB. Ganymede did a great job of quoting the rules that should be followed in a challenge with a multi wound weapon.

EvC
28-12-2008, 15:22
Hey Fat Olaf mate, just think of it like you would the Tomb King Flail of Skulls (Which I'm sure you must've used occasionally?)- if your Tomb King were to do three wounds to a unit champion in a challenge, they would multiply to 6 wounds for fll overkill, wouldn't they?