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View Full Version : How would you feel about me using Space Marine rules for Sisters of Battle models?



Luckywallace
26-12-2008, 08:49
Hello all,

I'm a long-time Sisters of Battle player (pretty much since the dawn of 3rd edition) and I love the models and background of the 'ol girls but am increasingly becoming frustrated with how out of date the rules and their codex is getting. With the future codex nowhere in sight (it seems Guard, Necrons, Space Wolves and Dark Eldar will all come first, and there will also be second-wave releases of Orks and Daemons in the mix) I have almost stopped playing them in favour of my Orks (with their swanky new codex which is awesome).

I have begun to warm to the idea of using the new Marine codex for the S.O.B.s. Now I wouldn't start throwing in Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders, and I don't use any of the 'werid' Inquisitorial stuff from the Witch Hunters book. I would also stick only the the special and heavy weapons that Sisters use.

Some may suspect otherwise but this really is not a 'power game' attempt to make the army super-powerful, my other army, those loveable Orks, have still yet to loose a game to the new Marines (something like 5 wins and 1 draw).

I have seen things like Chaos Space Marine forces (especially Iron Warriors) use the new Space Marine codex and even some Imperial Marine armies use the Chaos codex (taking lots of Khorne Beserkers to make a Flesh Tearers army). So would there be a big problem with me using Marine rules for the sisters?

The specifics of my army would be...

- Using Chaplain rules for a Canonness (keeping the 'faith' theme going).
- Using Assault Marines for Seraphim
- Using Tactical Squads for Sisters of Battle squads (with only heavy bolters and multimeltas as heavy weapons)
- Using 'Razorbacks with twin-linked lascannons' as rules for my Exorcists (I have the forge-world exorcists with cool twin-missile-pod weapons)

willydstyle
26-12-2008, 09:34
I wouldn't mind playing against you, but I think that the Sisters codex is one of the best out there. I'd play them if I had the money to collect the army.

Reflex
26-12-2008, 10:02
i dont think the codex is to bad. but it does take a skilled player to play well with sisters so i dont blame you for being frustrated. personally i wouldnt have a problem with you playing space marine style against me. but then again, i do like playing against sisters and some of the nasty shizzle they bring.

Master Stark
26-12-2008, 10:17
I disaprove. There are rules and models for the Sisters of Battle. Suck it up, and just use them.

the1stpip
26-12-2008, 11:35
Why, I think the sisters codex is far superior to the SM codex, and as you wouldn't be using to gain access to stuff you couldn't have, then there is no sense.

Sleazy
26-12-2008, 11:58
Sisters dont need to use marine rules, sure you could if you wanted and I dont think I would mind but it seems a waste of the great SOB rules, fluff and minis.

You have a cool army thats one of the rarer ones...use it! Theres plenty of peeps would love a sisters force.

feelnopain666
26-12-2008, 12:12
As a SoB player, I think that ideia a little strange. True, we got a outdated codex with too expensive units (if we see that a Assalt marine is 18 pts, and a Seraphin is 22, something is wrong); but still I can't go as low as to using the cheesy Marines rules in one of the most beautifull armies in 40k. Some things must be changed, yes; but we can only hope that GW doesnt ruin all the fluff like some codex's already released.

ehlijen
26-12-2008, 12:24
I don't think this would actually be that great an idea. You'd limit yourself in weapons choice without getting the faith system as compensation to make up for the roles you can't cover with that weapon selection. No plasma, no las, no missles, no powerfists...
You'd be lacking range (especially for AT) and meltas don't cover it against nidzilla or termie spam. Unless you're into serious conversion work (the metals are hard to cut apart) you will have problems dealing with some things.

And then there's the annoyance of getting 1 stormbolter sister in every box of 10 that you couldn't use as anything but a veteran sarge (whose spot is taken by the superior sister you also get in the box) :p

I wouldn't really mind except for the razorback/excorcist. Twin missle pods are not lascannons. If anything, it looks much more like a whirlwind. It's the only 'rhino with lots of rockets' the marines have and that's what I'd expect it to be. It should be possible to add lascannons to immolator turrets though.

Lord Damocles
26-12-2008, 12:43
I wouldn't support anything like this to be honest.

1)You lose more than you gain - unless you start using Marine-specific units - which is wrong on a whole other level.

2)Sisters have rules. Marines have rules. Nice and simple - I'd prefer to keep it that way.

Frankly
26-12-2008, 14:41
Go crazy, it always helps if both players are enjoying their armies on the table top.

tstreet21
26-12-2008, 15:48
as long as its clear what you are doing up front and you are not mixing any regular SoB units into the marine list (cult assassains/sisters repentia, etc) then I don't think there should be a problem with it.

Col. Tartleton
26-12-2008, 16:45
Since your already handicapping yourself slightly (just SOB in a witch hunter list is good, but limiting) I think that moving to an equally handicapped marine list won't do a lot for helping you win games.

Your average trooper is going to be a size better and about 40% more expensive. That's legitimate, and I can't see any problem there.

You should build your men as Salamanders on paper, they're the most AS marine force. Flamers, meltas, flamers, more flamers, bigger meltas, bolters, bigger bolters... its pretty much the same feeling. As a result I think you should end up running a list like this. Mind you, some things on first glance may be a bit too marine ish, but I think that thanks to the =I= and ecclesiarchy you could very well have a land raider.

So Vulkan He'stan as a Cannonness would really strengthen your army. The relic spear, flame fist, and cloak o' cool, would really fit in as a sister count as. The relic spear thing could be done up like the spear of christ, the flame fist could become an intricate and gothic looking gauntlet on one hand (I'd keep it small to fit the size of the sister, like a marines regular hand with some minor flamer conversions.) and then the cloak could be a funeral shroud of a saint or something. And he makes all your flamers and meltas rape.

Then a chaplain as a Palatine would work. Or you could inverse the He'stan and chaplain if it suits you, but I see the Cannoness as a commander, whereas I see the palatine as a warrior priestess more like a chaplain.

The rest of your list seems sane. Seraphim assaults, tactical battle sisters, Sternguard Celestians... Do it. Then some devastator retributors should round out the list.

And I forgot, buy a land raider redeemer for your "canonness" and celestians. The mixture of the he'stan powers on flamers and the tig ol tank should be a nice army centerpiece. Just Gothic-ize the **** out of it.

Firstborn
26-12-2008, 17:02
The problem is you're screwing your army over. Mech Sisters are awesomely powerful when used right, able to annhilate power armour and flak armour with equal ease. My Sisters have never lost to a Marine army, and they eat Orks for breakfast.

I just don't see the point in crippling your army for no good reason.

zealot!
26-12-2008, 18:12
regular humans dont have t4. Sisters are better than marines pt for pt in 5th ed. they need nerfed. (rest of the book needs a jumpstart tho)

if you can't win with sisters you're doing something wrong. look @ the witch hunters tactica..

go with sisters in rhinos and a pair of exorcists, a jump canoness, inq squad with heavy bolters, and a callidus assassin.

HsojVvad
26-12-2008, 18:23
Are you trying to say, you want to use the SoB as "count as" SM? I have no problem with that.

I am actually surprised with all the negative comments on this, as 2 people have already said, SoB have their own rules, use them.

Where are all the DA, BA, SW players to defend this person? Isn't some of these people using the new SM codex for thier DA, BA, SW army? Maybe being Christmas they arn't online right now, but I better see them here defending this person, or they are nothing but hipocrits.

I thought SoB had great rules. Maybe them being out dated as you said, you want something new and refreshing, I can see why you want a change. Remeber guys, he didn't say the rules suck or anything like that, but out dated and old. Maybe he is tired of playing the same thing, and wants something different, without spending the money on a new force.

As I said, before, I would have no problem with it at all. I say go ahead and if your opponent has a problem with it, he wouldn't have been much fun in the first place to play againsnt.

Kalec
26-12-2008, 18:30
Make it clear what units are what, and there is no problem at all with this.

Inquisitor Engel
26-12-2008, 18:30
If you're not winning with Witch Hunters, you're not doing it right!

Doctor Thunder
26-12-2008, 18:34
I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Shangrila
26-12-2008, 18:38
I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I agree as long as I would know whats what.

Firstborn
26-12-2008, 18:43
regular humans dont have t4. Sisters are better than marines pt for pt in 5th ed. they need nerfed. (rest of the book needs a jumpstart tho)

They need nerfing because they are better point for point than Marines? Is that a joke? Ork Shooters are better point for point than Marines, as are Chaos Marines and Dire Avengers. Do all those need nerfing too?

Luckywallace
26-12-2008, 18:46
I seem to have stirred up a lot of discussion which is a good thing and seem to generally be getting two types of responces.

I want to make very clear that I *do* already have a Sisters of Battle army, fully painted and that I love the models, their fluff and their imagery. Nuns with guns FTW!
My general assumption was that there would not be a major problem with me using Sisters as "counts as" Marines and this seems to be mostly supported. As HsojVvad has pointed out, an awful lot of Dark Angels are now jumping to the new Marine codex even though there is a shiny Dark Angels book out there (which is MUCH more up-to-date than the Witch Hunters book).

As for whether it is tactially wise to make the switch that is something of another matter. I have to say while I do not claim to be a tactical genious and have never played in a tournament I consider myself a decent player. I certainly win more games than I loose and am currently un-defeated with my Orks since their re-launch in January (the exact record is, I believe 11 wins, 1draw, 0 loses).

With my Sisters, who I played an awful lot in late-3rd and most of 4th edition I found that I probably won about 65% of the time. However, as new codex books have come out they are simply more powerful (Orks is the most obvious example but the new Marines as well, a lot of stuff just got cheaper with no extra handicaps). I always played my Sisters at 1500pts as a very infantry-based army with 2 large Seraphim squads who would leap about causing carnage. Now it seems that the only way to be affective with Sisters is to go "Mech Sisters". Seraphim were once awesome but all other jump infantry has dropped in price a lot and often got better at the same time. The poor Sera's are now a shadow of their former selves.
I do not doubt that "Mech Sisters" are very powerful but they are just not my play style. I always like an army with good solid infantry squads and the SOBs used to be able to pull that off... not so against most decently chosen armies from late-4th or 5th edition books.

This possibly all sounds a bit "boo hoo" and some may say I should suck it up and keep playing but the simple fact is, I find it less enjoyable fighting an uphill battle from the start. I don't like having an army that is drastically more powerful than opponents either, I like a good balanced scrap. I never take games that seriously and am generally not a very competative person - if I get beaten by somebody who is a better player with a more cunning army then fair enough.
However, I do find it frustrating if I feel that I have played very well with a well-balanced army and yet my opponent still wins with a poor plan and tactics through all his flash new rules or super-cheap troops.

I love my Sisters of Battle and don't want to lock them away in their box for 2 or 3 years waiting for the next codex. I see the new Marine dex as a useful "stop gap" to keep the Sisters working on the table-top in the meantime.

Firstborn
26-12-2008, 18:51
Sisters of Battle are glass cannons. They die when you look at them, but they pack a hell of a punch. Walking them towards the enemy never worked, really. In Rhinos they absolutely rock. Seraphim are exactly the same as they always were. Other jump troops may be cheaper now, but you can't take those, can you? ;)

MrBigMr
26-12-2008, 20:06
I disaprove. There are rules and models for the Sisters of Battle. Suck it up, and just use them.
No U suck it!



I have to say I don't have a problem with it, as long as it's wysiwyg, etc. Sure, Sisters ain't Mahreeenz!!!122&#%#%&%/, but I can look it through my fingers. It's not like I have a non-Marine army using Marine rules... :angel:

I've been wanting to do a Sister army as Frateris Templars, but I'd rather see a new codex before doing anything like that. Yes, I do the opposite, I take female models and stick penises on them. Hah, take that you "nerds just wanna stick tits on everything" people.

Noserenda
26-12-2008, 20:48
Hah, take that you "nerds just wanna stick tits on everything" people.

Quote of the Day Winner :D

To the OP if its for something a little different with your buddies whats the issue really? Its never an idea thats going to be as acceptable to the masses as C:SM Dark Angels or even World Eaters. The Sisters may share an armour save and a Basic Weapon but there the Similarities fade.

However, as long as you remain consistent with the "Counts as"-ing you could probably produce a nice bland marine army, but why bother? When for want of a couple of Rhinos you could produce a more exciting Sisters list?

willydstyle
26-12-2008, 23:38
I personally thing that Seraphim are still awesome, but they're a short-range shooting unit rather than a CC jump infantry unit. Combined with Hit and Run they're quite useful.

The way you've described your approach to playing them seems like a sure way to lose to me. With even Orks outranging you in 5th ed, and with mobility being more important than ever, putting sisters in rhinos seems to be more important than ever.

That being said, I would still play against you as long as you were using legal rules, but I'm much more afraid of SoB lists than I am of SM lists. I play Chaos.

pueriexdeus
27-12-2008, 00:42
As a DA player who now pays more for less, I'll just say that if the OP's intent is get back some parity on War Gear that got nerfed, go for it. I don't/haven't played SoB so I'm not sure how the new SM Codex affected it, do have the codex though, I'll have to read through it when I get back home.

If he wants to play Sob As SM's, well a Bolter is a Bolter regardless who is holding it. Changing the statline might become problematic though. Go for it see how it work out.

Alright now that that's settled, who wants to run their Nids using the Ork Dex?

pueriexdeus
27-12-2008, 00:49
Crimeny, tried to post my reply and it got lost in the "taking to long to reply" zone.

As I was saying I have no problem if the OP is trying to recreate parity in wargear that got nerfed by the new SM Dex. As a DA player who is now spending more for less I understand the frustration. If however he wants to proxy his SoB as SM, OK, great learning tool, then get some Marines.

Now that we have that settled, who wants to play his Nids using the Ork Codex?

ZOMGBBQ
27-12-2008, 00:50
I would tell you you are a terrible powergaming git then throw you out of our club then instruct everyone else under pain of banishment to never play you for being said powergamy git.

I play both Space Wolves and Dark Eldar, and I routenly get the Chapter Librarians/Kinky Peoples to make sure such thoughts never go through my head. I could easily use the full nilla codex or use the Eldar Codex, but I dont because I play the army for the army, not because it has OMFGBBQNEWRULESANDVANGUARDYAY!

[/rant]

MrBigMr
27-12-2008, 01:01
Funny, as what I'm reading here and there, the new SM ain't doing so good, where as Sisters seem to be a strong list. So switching to SM codex is more like shooting yourself in the foot.

I play to play. I don't see what's the big deal. I mean, it's better than "one more God damn female Space Marine army", isn't it? What does it matter what models you have on the board, when the rules are in order? At the moment my Chaos army is using the SM codex, as the CSM one is unable to support the fluff at all. And don't think I haven't tried. I've had people offer to give it a try and so far no one has been able to do it. Win or lose, I'd far rather be happy with my army than anything else.

petesamd
27-12-2008, 01:21
sorry If I'm hijacking this thread but would anyone mind if I used SB as space marine scouts? the marines have strong ties with the inquisition.

Petesamd

MrBigMr
27-12-2008, 01:28
Except that the Adepta Sororitas is a part of the Ecclesiarchy and not of the Inquisition.

willydstyle
27-12-2008, 01:30
And they're also not particularly well-known for subtlety.

Metaphorazine
27-12-2008, 02:57
So long as you're playing with a legal codex, and everything's easy to identify, I don't care what toy soldiers you use to do it. And anyone arguing otherwise is really making a big deal out of something that isn't. Valid rules + models that can represent those rules = an army. Saying "Those rules aren't meant for THOSE toy soldiers! You cheatz0r!" is ridiculous.

Dr.Clock
27-12-2008, 04:09
yes... humans in power-armour with bolters. Go for it. If your army is completely WYSIWYG as far as armament is concerned, there's little I would say.

The weapon restrictions are awesome and this would actually be a handicapped SM list... no HS tanks aside from whirlwinds, I'm assuming, but HB and MM devs in combat squads could be nice.

You essentially resign yourself to maybe ONE sternguard unit from elites (it isn't the ammo... it's their faith), assault squads and at the most a command squad as celestians or arcos (?).

I figure the gap between editions makes a possible virture out of creative use of present edition rules... if the obvious differences between the forces is respected.

I wouldn't have a problem with scout-stat SoB if they didn't infiltrate... as it is, they could be arbites... that are working for an inquisitor (telion?). Give them shotguns, HB and bolters.

It will be absolutely necessary that you avoid using things that the Sisters simply have no access to, such as dreads, terminators, Land Raiders etc. But if the list is (as it obviously is in the OPs case) based on an existing, legal list from the original codex, I see no problem with any of it.

The list will be, I think, surprisingly balanced. And a multi-melta is always a good choice.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

blackroyal
27-12-2008, 04:57
They need nerfing because they are better point for point than Marines? Is that a joke? Ork Shooters are better point for point than Marines, as are Chaos Marines and Dire Avengers. Do all those need nerfing too?

Clearly they do. No one can be better than marines. Ever...


Now it seems that the only way to be affective with Sisters is to go "Mech Sisters". ...
I do not doubt that "Mech Sisters" are very powerful but they are just not my play style. I always like an army with good solid infantry squads and the SOBs used to be able to pull that off... not so against most decently chosen armies from late-4th or 5th edition books.


The most popular method of running sisters lists is to max the mech. If you want to use your pewter models armed with bolters/meltas/flamers as space marines, then do so. One of the things that I dislike from the 4th-5th change is the identity of models changed. They got away from listing models as "representations" or ""placeholders" and basically made the ruling that the kneeling guy was always kneeling. Your kneeling guy cannot see over a wall while all of his friends can.

Grand Warlord
27-12-2008, 05:12
Well for me as long as I knew what everything was I don't think there would be a problem.

Occulto
27-12-2008, 05:24
Wouldn't really have a problem with it - it's a lot less confusing than other proxies.

To be honest, I don't get many games against SoB, so I'd be rather disappointed if I faced someone using them as SM.

starlight
27-12-2008, 05:35
As a player of both...

...NO.

:p

Sisters actually have a fairly strong set of rules, they just happen to have some useless units in their book. Stick with the bog standard Battle Sister and her Power Armoured companions and it's a great force. :D


Would I refuse to play? No. Would I be very disappointed? Yes.

Ork
27-12-2008, 06:50
@ the OP.

Look how witch hunters did at the GT's this year.

Look how the space marines did.

Witch Hunters did MUCH better than Space Marines, even with their new codex. Suck it up and play your rules.

MrBigMr
27-12-2008, 08:11
Witch Hunters did MUCH better than Space Marines, even with their new codex. Suck it up and play your rules.
And that's what it's all about, isn't it, which army is the better, which is made out of more win than the other. Nothing else matters, right?


It will be absolutely necessary that you avoid using things that the Sisters simply have no access to, such as dreads, terminators, Land Raiders etc. But if the list is (as it obviously is in the OPs case) based on an existing, legal list from the original codex, I see no problem with any of it.
Dreads as Penitent Engines?

Luckywallace
27-12-2008, 09:06
Okay, maybe to try and clear things up a bit, how about I post my proposed 1000 point army list (I tend to always play 1000 points these days). Hopefully this will get rid of the odd shouts of "power gaming". In honesty if I wanted to be a power gamer I would never play anything but my Orks who I think are currently more powerful than either Space Marines or S.O.B.s

Also, one more thing before I post the list, I do not dispute that Sisters *can* still be a powerful army (Mech Sisters with flamers) but rather that I cannot play them in the style I *want* (and a style I had great success with back in late 3rd, early 4th editions). However I still love the models and the fluff.
So, rather than throw away my lovely Sisters models for a set of Space Marine models (which are nice but then everybody has them) I propose the following army list...

- Chaplain with Jump Pack (Uses Cannonnes model with power weapon + jump pack).
- 10 Assault Marines with 1 flamer and serg. with power fist (Uses Searphim, inc. one with twin hand flamers for the flamer and an Eviscerator on the Sister Suprior for the 'power fist')
- 10 Tactical Marines with flamer and heavy bolter (Obviously, normal Sisters with the equivilent weapons).
- 10 Tactical Marines with flamer and multimelta (As above)
- 10 Tactical Marines with flamer and multimelta (A second identical squad)
- 2 Razorcacks with twin-lascannons (Use my Forge World Exorcists. I know they look more like whirlwinds but in game-terms the Exorcist and the Whirlwind are NOTHING alike - the twin lascannons are much closer to how the Exorcist actually works).

So there we go, an infantry heavy Marine army .
By the way, if you really need a fluff explaination... "Acts of Faith" can make sisters stronger (up to strength 5 in fact), braver and more difficult to kill. It doesn't seem a huge stretch to me to think of this Sisters army as being in a permanent state of "faith" to justify their new morale, strength and toughness...

MrBigMr
27-12-2008, 11:47
Wouldn't a Predator with TL lascannon turret and no sponsons be closer as it has the right armour values? Besides, isn't the Whirlwind's incendiary missile very Sister-like? Ok, you might not have an equivalent model in the rules, but seeing how you can have SM chapters and Guard regiments with their unique weapons/gear, why can't some Sister covent utilize a Rhino chassis with an incendiary missile launcher?

ehlijen
27-12-2008, 11:50
Excorcsits are also not transport vehicles. Just like whirwinds aren't. The immolator makes for great razorback stand ins (all the weapons configs are even legal!). The FW excorcists have always looked more like whirlwinds than anything else, no matter what the stats. What about hyperion whirlwinds (from IA:apoc)? Or if you insist on lascannons (which I would not accept to be honest, but that's just me) make them predator annihilators, no transports and same armour as the excorcists.

kalspriggs
27-12-2008, 13:07
I don't see the big deal. As long as you're clear from the begining that it's something of a 'proxy' army. All the weapons, the armor, etc are ok. I've seen bigger changes, like the lizardmen 'nid army that the Fighting Tigers of Veda guy does. I think a big problem people have is the 'no female space marines' thing. So long as you and your opponent don't have any issues, who cares?

Surgency
27-12-2008, 16:24
It looks good to me. I'm even firmly against the "no female space marines" thing, and I'd play it, with a smile. It's obvious that you're running a Sisters army, just with a different ruleset. This reminds me of the Ork army that was modeled to be like an SM army, and used SM rules... I do the same thing, DA with SM rules, CSM with SM rules... Hell, I've even run my SM with CSM rules!

MrBigMr
27-12-2008, 16:34
Lets not forget Ork Deffwing.

Fr0
28-12-2008, 00:34
To proxy, no problem. To play for real, regularly; effin' wrong. Find another opponent.

Plastic Parody
28-12-2008, 01:29
Have you checked out the tactica thread or considered using the updated IA vehicle listings, this brings the SOB Rhinos etc back in to line with the updated marine equivalents. Obviously it would require your opponents consent. Another option would be to use guard allies maybe, seriously there is a gem of an army in there. Mech all the way for them.

Would I mind playing you, nah as Id probably do better against your proxy list ;-p

swordwind
28-12-2008, 01:50
If he pays the points cost and all the miniatures are modeled with the correct equipment, does it really matter which set of stats he uses?

ZOMGBBQ
28-12-2008, 05:34
Lets not forget Ork Deffwing.

No this is a different case.

Deffwing is a legitimate counts as Army.

The op just wants to use the SPAESH MARIEEENS! to try and win games, which is wrong. If winning is so important, sell your Sisters and buy Nidzilla.
You should collect an army because you like it, not just because it might win.

If you are having problems winning with sisters a crash course in Generalship in in order not trying to powergame.

MrBigMr
28-12-2008, 08:47
No this is a different case.
The hell it is.


Deffwing is a legitimate counts as Army.
On what basis? You're using DA rules for Orks. The rules don't even match up. Terminators don't have Slow and Purposeful, their weapons are better, etc. If you want Deffwing, why not use the official rules via the normal Ork codex with two warbosses, two Troop meganobs and 3 Elite meganobs?


The op just wants to use the SPAESH MARIEEENS! to try and win games, which is wrong. If winning is so important, sell your Sisters and buy Nidzilla.
You should collect an army because you like it, not just because it might win.

If you are having problems winning with sisters a crash course in Generalship in in order not trying to powergame.
So taking an army that is not that powerful to begin with, over a one that is, is just playing to win? I fail to see how. Maybe I should try it.

weissengel86
28-12-2008, 08:54
I disaprove. There are rules and models for the Sisters of Battle. Suck it up, and just use them. This is a silly response. If somebody spends lots of money and invests lots of time on a companies products only to have them ignore you almost entirely (like my poor daemonhunters:cries:). I see no reason not to take the initiative and do what GW should be doing. Especially if the people you play with are friends or dont have a rod up their ass about rules considering GWs failure with FAQs or updates.

As for the OP, though, I see no reason to use Space marine rules that seems silly to me. The sisters are not exactly weak or so old they cant do any good. They have solid units and in the hands of somebody who knows how to use them can be a very challenging force to play against. They could use an update obviosly but they work fine now. Just peruse the sisters tactica and test out some forces you will find they do quite well and can very easily slaughter horde armies or elite armies if they are tooled out right and you use faith points wisely.

Luckywallace
28-12-2008, 08:57
No this is a different case.

Deffwing is a legitimate counts as Army.

The op just wants to use the SPAESH MARIEEENS! to try and win games, which is wrong. If winning is so important, sell your Sisters and buy Nidzilla.
You should collect an army because you like it, not just because it might win.

If you are having problems winning with sisters a crash course in Generalship in in order not trying to powergame.

Okay... after everything I have posted I am a little miffed at how you could still come to this conclusion ZOMGBBQ.

I admit that my approach is somewhat unusual. However, I hardly see how I can really be called a "power gamer" - if you look at my proposed list it is mostly tactical squads with none of the really nasty new stuff from the Marine book and no min-maxing... unless taking lots of ordinary troops is considered to be power-gaming these days...

To boil it all down to the core essence I find that I love the SOB models and fluff and have a reasonably well painted army of them. However, whether it is a result of rule updates/changes or myself just becoming more aware of their play-style I have begun to find that I do not really "gel" with the army all that well. I see a decent alternative to fielding the gals with an army list that I feel I could get on well with and which would require no elaborate proxy or opponents keeping track of what is what (SOBs have all the same equipment as Marines and I would only be using special weapons that the SOBs have access to anyway).

Is it so wrong for me to want to use my lovely SOB models to play this army list or would people want to force me to either get rid of my Sisters or else lock them away in a cupboard for years?

Just to say again, I really do not find the new Marines to be horribly over-powered or anything, my Orks are still beating them into the dirt... if I really wanted to "just win" I would simply keep bringing the Orks along...

ehlijen
28-12-2008, 10:28
You have to admit: If you truly didn't care about winning or the power of an army, you'd just use the rules intended for the models you like and be done with it.

T_55
28-12-2008, 10:45
I must say i'd feel somewhat cheated if you brought out a SoB army and then told me you where using the space marine codex, much like how i'd feel uneasy about anyone who does so with chaos space marines due to a certain expectation.

However i haven't read through the whole thread yet, and i'm sorry if you've written why already but would you kindly tell us why you feel the space marine codex is more appropriate in representing an army of Sisters of Battle?

MrBigMr
28-12-2008, 10:51
much like how i'd feel uneasy about anyone who does so with chaos space marines due to a certain expectation.
Even when GW themselves says it's far more appropriate to use the SM codex for recently fallen chapters than the CSM one?

T_55
28-12-2008, 10:59
Yes :p. Such issues are open to a variety of interpretations and it doesn't stop people from doing it but it doesn't stop me from feel uneasy either.

BaronDG
28-12-2008, 12:06
May I ask, OP, what sisters army you used before?

MrBigMr
28-12-2008, 12:10
Yes :p. Such issues are open to a variety of interpretations and it doesn't stop people from doing it but it doesn't stop me from feel uneasy either.
I don't see how
If your Space Marines have only recently turned, then it is perfectly appropriate to use Codex: Space Marines leaves much room for interpretation. Then again, GW has said a lot of things and people still find reasons to ignore their statements if favor of their own oppinions. But it's their right... Right?

T_55
28-12-2008, 12:34
Well far be it for me to point this out but they do only say space marines recently turned traitor, and fail to mention chaos space marines. You could also question how recent is recent? 1 minute, 2?

GW says you must kill yourself immediately, we should listen to them right?

MrBigMr
28-12-2008, 13:17
GW says you must kill yourself immediately, we should listen to them right?
Some people might as well...

Luckywallace
28-12-2008, 14:01
Okay dokie, here is, roughly speaking, my 1000pts Sisters army I has used for a long period of time with reasonable success (again, I would estimate about a 65% win ratio back in the day). Full details not included...

- Canonness (sometimes with a jump pack)
- Squad of 10 Seraphim
- 2 Squads of 10 SOBs with 2 Stormbolters
- 10 Retributors with 4 heavy bolters
- 2 Exorcists

That is the basics, when going up to 1500 I would usually take another 10 Seraphim and a 10-strong SOB squad in a rhino with flamers or meltaguns. Sometimes an Inquisitor too.

Some may be aghast at this army but it really did work quite well (not against everyone I admit). However, towards the end of 4th edition and the newer army books I have found that this same army is facing an uphill struggle. I don't play the SOBs that much these days and when I do I have probably be able to maintain about a 50% win/loss ratio. One awkward issue is that I have had to ditch on the Retributors in 1000 points due to the new focus on TROOPS being the ones to take objectives. Suddenly the army's long-range firepower is much less impressive. The 'SOB infantry army' is a lot less effective than it used to be and I just don't like the idea of 'Mech Sisters'. Among other things I love my SOB models and don't like the idea of them sitting in my figure case for most of the game with just rhinos, exorcists and seraphim on the table.

I accept what ehlijen said, if I "didn't care" about winning then I wouldn't feel the need to change. However, I think there is space between the extremes of "not caring about winning" and "being a power gamer".
I really don't mind getting beaton if my opponent has a better army or better tatics or if luck is just on his side. I have suffered many defeats over my long GW carear (been going for about 13 years now). However, I have never liked playing an army that is just outright under-strength. With the Witch Hunters/Sisters, much like the Dark Eldar, I agree that they can be powerful still but it seems that only a few very limited cookie-cutter builds work with much of their codex lists being useless (I love the Sister Repentia models and the idea of having a dedicated hand-to-hand squad but would never field them).

To spin it a slightly differant way... if I was just starting out on a NEW army and told you all that I love the Sisters of Battle models and background but don't want to play with a very old out-of-date book would you still have the problems if I suggested using Space Marine rules? After all, my SOB army has probably cost three times (if not more) the ammount it would have to field the equivilent in a Marine force... and after all that money I've given to G.W. am I so wrong to feel annoyed that they have left several of their old armies with dusty old books when 10 minutes of work and a quick update on the internet would set everything straight?

willydstyle
28-12-2008, 14:54
All you would need to do to make that list super good is to drop the retributors for one sisters squad in a rhino with flamers. Really, two exorcists is plenty of long-ranged firepower, and with one-third of missions being "dawn of war" it limits the usefulness of foot-mounted heavy weapons squads anyways. With two of the scariest tanks in the game on the board firepower leveled at your rhino should be limited, and flamers coupled with divine guidance is one of the scariest things for any unit in the game to face.

I never use Havocs for 5th ed any more either. I think that if you were willing to change your army a bit for 5th ed, you could have a lot of success with this core army.

Exterminatus
28-12-2008, 15:11
Some people might as well...


Oi!!!!!!!!!!

BaronDG
28-12-2008, 15:29
I think you should go mech. Why are you so dead set against it?

I started out with intentions for a footslogging list and was beaten every time. It only made me more determined to get MY codex working and NOT to switch to marines.

Give yourself a rhino and an immolator and see what happens...

Doctor Thunder
28-12-2008, 16:32
You have to admit: If you truly didn't care about winning or the power of an army, you'd just use the rules intended for the models you like and be done with it.

Two quick points:

1) Everyone cares about winning and the power level of their army, without exception. You...me...everybody.

Some people care more then others, but there is no one who doesn't care at least a little.

2) Sisters performed better in the U.S. tournament circuit this year then the new Space Marine codex did, so your argument is flawed. If he was a power gamer, wouldn't he be asking permission to use the more powerful rules set, not the weaker one?

HsojVvad
28-12-2008, 16:54
To proxy, no problem. To play for real, regularly; effin' wrong. Find another opponent.


You have to admit: If you truly didn't care about winning or the power of an army, you'd just use the rules intended for the models you like and be done with it.

This is what I don't get with posts like this. It's easy to post a crast remark, but if you want to be taken seriously at least explain yourself.

@ Fro; what is the difference of proxy and playing real. When you proxy you are playing real. Effin' wrong find anthour opponet? Wow just don't know what to say.

@ ehlijen, what don't you get? He has been playing this army for almost 10 years. It's easy to say play with the the rules to the minis that you have when they are not updated in almost a decade. Maybe you can play with the same army but lots of people like something different once in a while but don't have the money or time, or care to collect and paint a new army just to play with it. Maybe that is not his case, but that is for a lot of people.

BTW he did explain himself, so can you be taken seriously?

ZOMGBBQ
28-12-2008, 17:29
Two quick points:

1) Everyone cares about winning and the power level of their army, without exception. You...me...everybody.

Some people care more then others, but there is no one who doesn't care at least a little.

2) Sisters performed better in the U.S. tournament circuit this year then the new Space Marine codex did, so your argument is flawed. If he was a power gamer, wouldn't he be asking permission to use the more powerful rules set, not the weaker one?

1) I dont actually, I play the game mostly for the Story, sometimes for the Cool models. I Dont care if I win or not. I also want to point out that the only whines we hear are from INQ and DA players, with almost none from DE and SW players, because players of those armies (I play both) have learnt how to actually use their armies.

2) This just shows that the OP hasnt a clue what he is talking about and is just some immature child who wants GW's new shiny toy.

Doctor Thunder
28-12-2008, 17:40
1) I dont actually, I play the game mostly for the Story, sometimes for the Cool models. I Don't care if I win or not.
I don't believe you. Someone who truly didn't care about winning or losing wouldn't be irritated by what the OP is doing.


2) This just shows that the OP hasn't a clue what he is talking about and is just some immature child who wants GW's new shiny toy.
What makes you think he is an immature child? That seems kind of unfair, seeing as how you don't know him. His posts in this thread have been fair and even toned, and he has not resorted to name calling like you have.

Why so quick to judge?

MrBigMr
28-12-2008, 18:58
If he was a power gamer, wouldn't he be asking permission to use the more powerful rules set, not the weaker one?
i was liek duing a mail sista army is it ok lol cool thx

ehlijen
28-12-2008, 23:09
Yes there is room between the extremes, but such defensiveness over what is a valid point just struck me as needing to challenged a bit.

The more powerful ruleset is also subjective. He's stated that for some reason he does not wish to play the successful mech sister list but rather a semi-static gunline. He seems to not believe the sisters rules are good enough for that, see he looks for a more suitable (and in this respect more powerful) alternate ruleset.

I'm not saying he is trying to WAAC or be unsportsmanlike, but when it comes right down to it, he is asking to be allowed to ignore some rules (wysiwyg) so that his army performs better.

As for not getting new rules, so what? There is no such thing as rules 'going off'. In fact that WH codex suffered from plenty of useless stuff to begin with while much of the good stuff is still good or even better now. Apart from the new ork hordes getting a deserved break, very little has upset the balance and the sisters have been able to deal with hordes better than most anyway.
And if you want a different army, why not get a different army?

HsojVvad
28-12-2008, 23:25
How long would you guys play an army before it got updated? It's easy for some people to say use your own codex, since lots have been redone within 5 years. His is an older codex. There are not alot of DE players because theres is so old. there area few die hards that will stick to them no matter what and there is nothign wrong with that, they should be comended, but most of us, including me would want to go onto something else.

So he wants to try something different without buying new mini's. What is wrong with that, untill a new Sisters codex comes out. I believe he is even doing WYSIWYG, so where is the problem?

What if they didn't redo SM for 10 years, would you just play the same army over and over again? Remember not everyone can afford to buy new armies, but can afford a new codex to use something that is different. Hell it can even be justified fluff wise. Yes the sisters are not Space Marines, but the new technology they have, make them equal to SM through their new suits. It enhances their strength and through new prayer they have better reflexes.

Doctor Thunder
28-12-2008, 23:32
I'm not saying he is trying to WAAC or be unsportsmanlike, but when it comes right down to it, he is asking to be allowed to ignore some rules (wysiwyg) so that his army performs better.

That kind of WYSIWYG is a tournament rule, not a 40K rule.

ehlijen
28-12-2008, 23:50
Curious. Wysiwyg is part of the 40k rules on a codex by codex basis (it's on the Using the army list page of each codex). But it seems...to only apply to wargear/equipment but not acutal models...I never noticed that before.

MrBigMr
28-12-2008, 23:51
I'm not saying he is trying to WAAC or be unsportsmanlike, but when it comes right down to it, he is asking to be allowed to ignore some rules (wysiwyg) so that his army performs better.
WYSIWYG is not always about using the appropriate GW model on hand. You might as well model each and every heavy bolter in your army as a big minigun and still be WYSIWYG, as each and every minigun = a heavy bolter. But if some of the miniguns were heavy bolters and the rest autocannons, then you would have a problem.


WYSIWYG is a tournament rule, not a 40K rule.
An anal GW tournament rule. I've heard of GW tournaments where even OOP GW models have been disallowed. Good news for all the veteran gamers.

We haven't disallowed nothing yet around local tournaments, though we encourage people to be WYSIWYG as much as possible, just so that the opponent knows what's going on. No one has ever had any trouble with my Dwarfs (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165632), and there's some "WTF is that" things in there.

Khornies & milk
28-12-2008, 23:52
So he wants to try something different without buying new mini's. What is wrong with that, untill a new Sisters codex comes out. I believe he is even doing WYSIWYG, so where is the problem?

I see no real problem with the mechanics of such a list, but in the end is the OP going to get in many games using his list...

..he will if he plays with his usual group of gamers who are OK with 'counts as' lists.

..he will if he comes across a like-minded gamer for a pick-up game, but I think they'd be few and far between, probably because it would come across as WAAC. May not be the OP's intention but I think this would be the perception held by the majority of people.

I play a varient of a SoB list myself, OH Strike Force, but only within a gaming group that's happy to play outside GW - set parameters, because I think it's pushing it to expect a stranger to play such a list without feeling a bit weird.

Doctor Thunder
29-12-2008, 00:03
But it seems to only apply to wargear/equipment but not actual models. I never noticed that before.

Right, that's because "counts as" has been allowed and encouraged by GW for as long as I've played it. Only tournaments require you to use the appropriate race, and even then it's not strictly enforced.

So long as his models have power armor and the correct weapons, he is breaking neither the spirit nor the letter of the rules.

suprememidgetoverlord
29-12-2008, 00:40
Wasnt there a tournement recently with a Kroot army on bikes that actually counted as being orks (and the bikers nob bikers)?

WYSIWYG is actually mentionned in the BRB, so it's not just a tourney thing after all.

We have never had a problem with it around here, as long as you tell your opponent before-during deployment, no one has never complained about it!

Doctor Thunder
29-12-2008, 00:54
WYSIWYG is actually mentionned in the BRB


It's only mentioned in reference to equipment on characters. It doesn't refer to the base models at all.

Luckywallace
29-12-2008, 07:41
Quickly with reference to ZOMGBBQ...

1 - That is good for you if you do not care about winning but I would suggest you are in a minority. I have never got upset or angry and always play in a friendly, sportsmanlike way. This doesn't mean I won't try to play to win or that I won't pick my army list in an attempt to make it work on the battlefield. It also doesn't mean I'm against following the "rule of cool" when it is not the most tactically sensible plan. The number of times I have charged my Ork warboss across the board at my friend's Space Marine captain only to have the greenskin killed on every occassion is getting tough to count...

2 - You were vaguely half-right on one front in that when i first posted this I didn't have a clue about who came out higher in tournament results. I'm not a tournament player, nor do I care desperatly about having the most powerful army (otherwise I would have sold the SOBs long ago and invested in, perhaps Daemons who I find to be a very powerful force).
As for the outright attack on me as being an "immature child", I do not see how anything I have typed or suggested is immature. In addition, I have not actually *DONE* any of this and not turned up to any games with my SOBs claiming them to be Marines. I suspected this would be a contraversial topic so hence have posted on hear asking opinions of a large community of G.W. fans. When challenged I have put across my answers in logical and reasonable forms, not resorting to name-calling or insults. I cannot see how that can be immature.
In addition, if you really want to know I am 24 so not exactly a child either.

In responce to BaronDG - I just don't feel "mech sisters" is my play style. As I said, I don't like my sisters spending 3/4 of the game sat in a figure case and it's also just not my "style". I find the idea somewhat risky (a few well-aimed lascannon shots and those rhinos are going nowhere) and I'm not really an "all or nothing" type of player (perhaps why I like Orks so much, there's always plenty more of the boys to fall back on if one mob gets pasted).

In responce to willydstyle - That is roughly the army I am using at the moment. It is workable, but I wouldn't say it is much more than that. Feels like a half-way house compromise between going fully mech/fast attack and keeping my gun-line together.

Metaphorazine
29-12-2008, 11:36
..he will if he comes across a like-minded gamer for a pick-up game, but I think they'd be few and far between, probably because it would come across as WAAC. May not be the OP's intention but I think this would be the perception held by the majority of people.

How is using a bunch of tin soldiers with 1 list of paper-bound rules different from using a different bunch of plastic soldiers with the exact same list of paper-bound rules? How is that WAAC? He's using C:SM, even intentionally restricting himself, and that's WAAC? It's WAAC cause his models are shaped different to yours, but he's using the EXACT SAME RULES? Please tell me, WHAT IS HE DOING WRONG?

They're toy soldiers. Build a damn bridge and get over it. Just cause GW designed X models to work with X ruleset doesn't mean a damn thing. They're models, nothing more.

09Project
29-12-2008, 12:56
- 2 Razorcacks with twin-lascannons (Use my Forge World Exorcists. I know they look more like whirlwinds but in game-terms the Exorcist and the Whirlwind are NOTHING alike - the twin lascannons are much closer to how the Exorcist actually works).



I got no problem with anything you want to do other than that bit, as I would look at the FW Exocist and think Whirlwind. And well, Immolators are very cheap for what you get in the box, convert a couple with changable weapons (SoB weapons in the box, grab a few lascannons) and you have two Immolators to use if you want to play as SoB and two Razorbacks you can use when you playing counts as.

Or I suppose convert your Exorcist with interchangable turrets again, standard ones for SoB and a couple of FW Lascannon turrets for Razorbacks. It a modeling project to get into too.

Luckywallace
29-12-2008, 18:52
While I do agree to some extent that the Forge World Exorcists look like Whirlwinds they still, in game terms, are NOTHING alike.

Something with twin-lascannons really was about the closest aproximation I could get to how an Exorcist might perform in a game, though perhaps Predators with twin-lascannons turrets rather than Razorbacks is closer, given that both Pred's and Exorcists have armour 13 (though back in the older SOB lists Exorcists used to be armour 11...).

O&G'sRule
29-12-2008, 18:59
I hate Wysiwyg, its stupidly restrictive if you play some people, but this I wouldn't like. They are 2 different armies, you wouldn't like tyranids being used as grey knights and its the same thing

oni
29-12-2008, 19:44
No way! If you want to play SM's then play SM's not proxy marines. I don't mind 'counts as' here and there, but I have zero tolerance for proxy-anything.

Orkeosaurus
29-12-2008, 20:31
This seems like a lot of work without that great of a reason.

It would be another thing if you wanted to use dread rules for pentiant engines or something, but just switching out the infantry doesn't make too much sense.

Battle Sisters are good when used well; theres no pressing need to switch them out with marines from that standpoint. Having an older codex isn't always a liability, as Sisters and Dark Eldar have been doing better than some newer armies.

Frep
30-12-2008, 02:08
Personally I dislike the idea, I wouldn't refuse to play it but I wouldn't be comfortable with it. Now while I understand the OP's point of view, the army he has used in the past has not adapted well for the changes in time, but army's changing is a fact of life. I used to field 6 man plasma squads for my marines, just the one plasma gun, now that isn't possible so I changed my list not my codex. If I were a SoB player I would change my list not codex, but the final choice is still yours, so I guess none of our opinions really matter in the end.

Khornies & milk
30-12-2008, 03:22
How is using a bunch of tin soldiers with 1 list of paper-bound rules different from using a different bunch of plastic soldiers with the exact same list of paper-bound rules? How is that WAAC? He's using C:SM, even intentionally restricting himself, and that's WAAC? It's WAAC cause his models are shaped different to yours, but he's using the EXACT SAME RULES? Please tell me, WHAT IS HE DOING WRONG?

Get a grip man....and stop shouting!
All I'm saying is that the OP might not get in many games using such a list, especially for pick-up games....if he does, then sweet!


They're toy soldiers. Build a damn bridge and get over it. Just cause GW designed X models to work with X ruleset doesn't mean a damn thing. They're models, nothing more.

Couldn't agree more...I have a fully modified WYSIWYG FoC of Deathwatch which are a 'counts-as' Death Wing force, but within my Club I use the GW Deathwatch ruleset for them, but I wouldn't and don't expect people to accept this for a pick-up game.