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dwarfhold13
27-12-2008, 06:44
ok.. so i've spent 2 months now, painting this ******* army and i've play tested the list in two games..
its really getting to me that i can't seem to do well with the list i've made.. and i wanted to see what you guys thought...
i'm running:
level 4 sorceress w/ 3 scrolls, cloak of 1 extra power die
master w/ great weapon, and reverse ward on cold one
lokhir fellheart

x24 corsair unit with frenzy banner and full command

x24 corsair unit with full command

x11 crossbowmen
x11 crossbowmen

x5 dark riders w/ mus. and champ
x5 dark riders w/ mus. and champ

x9 cold one knights with full command and standard of slaughter

x2 bolt throwers

hydra

the hydra is even not really living up to its reputation as being a nasty beast.. in one game it got beat down by a giant and the other just over-run.. boo!

the crossbowmen are overlooked a lot with other intimidation on the table and actually are pretty nasty

the corsair units are pretty gross too as far as attacks and shooty saves.. but after about 2 rounds of solid combat they start falling quickly.. now lokhir on the other hand.. if in combat with another big unit and a big unit behind him is really hard hitting.. i have yet to over-run anyone though and get double points...
having my lev. 4 mage in a fighting unit is proving to be a wrong move.. i think the sacrificial dagger is also more worth the 25 pts.. but there aren't many places i could put her..

HELP!!!!
Jon

Catferret
27-12-2008, 07:06
I'd drop the sacrificial dagger and get her mobile. Dark pegasus or even a dark steed (NOT a cold one). Means she can stay out of fights easier and getting picked on when her unit engages.

I'd also swap out the great weapon on the Master. A lance and shield will be far better for him. Increased protection and better strength. You are looking to be winning in one round with that big a unit of knights. Barring insane bravery or Unbreakable, a unit of cold ones charging in led by a character, while Dark Riders hit the flank, should break an enemy on the charge.

Aside from that, I think your problems are down to bad luck or poor use of the units. I'm still trying to get to grips with my Dark Elves but a lot of my friends play them so I'd hope that some of my advice was of use.

Oathwarden
27-12-2008, 07:11
The Corsair blocks should be toned down to 17 if you're throwing Lokir in them and 18 in the other block and run 3 ranks of 6. the frenzy banner is okay as long as you are using something as a blinder to keep them running where you want.

The cold ones should be run in a group of 5-6. these things shouldn't have to rely on the extra rank bonus. they should be either getting flank charges, charging a unit same time as other units, or charging something that will break on the initial charge.

Freeing up those points gives you a spearman block, drop a scroll from your sorcess for the sac. dagger and you have your battery unit. If you want to go that way.

The master you might swap the GW for Soulrender. GW w/ AP for an extra -1 on those really tough units or sword of might(+1 Str) and shield for some extra durability. And for those annoying times you need a magic weapon.

For the Hydra, you probably should run 2+ or none at all. adding 2 more Reaper's while some might cry foul is an acceptable tactic, or using the points from dropping it and a few of the other changes to add in some blackguard, shades, possibly a lvl 2 sorceress, etc.

I'm build corsair heavy lists, my link fu stinks, but if you want to take a look at the how to use for those, there is some lively discusions a page or 2 down. and people esp ==Me== have put up some good advice on them.

Suspicions
27-12-2008, 07:27
In keeping with what the other players here have said...

The theme you're going for is not an uncommon one, a list that can do a bit of everything with perhaps a special bit of attention leaning towards close combat.

What I personally believe, is that the individual units you have chosen work fine on their own, and that when it comes to combat,, you've got some great strength (provided you are hammering your opponent a single unit at a time...i.e. knights and hydra split the front while 5 dark riders hit flank, ect.)

The only real difficulty I see in this list, is that the individual components of it do not support one another particularly well (except perhaps in close combat where you should do fine against lightly armored / low toughness targets)

To elaborate and clarify, you are spending a very healthy number of points in a Lord level spell caster and expecting her to fill the roles of both magical offense, and magical defense. Against a typical list, you may be able to cast 2 very pertinent and valuable spells a turn that happen to be in range and potentially devastating to your opponent...but typically, you will fail in the casting of one spell, and your opponent is likely able to neutralize two more of your (5) spells each turn. Ultimately, the return you get in her points cost does not add up...one spell caster gets neutralized far too easily.

By taking even a single level 2 sorceress to support your Lord, you are throwing out up to 5 additional power dice each turn, against which your opponent will run out of scrolls and magical defense much faster, leaving more turns for both spell casters to harm the enemy. This is magnified again by granting your Lord the item that only a lord can carry, the Black Staff. Between this, her own Power of Darkness, and her 4 casting dice, you can use the 2 Army pool dice on your level 2 sorceress and spread out the casting potential (amplifying the effectiveness of each caster...the total is greater than the sum of its parts)

Every unit in your army should (ideally) fit this general idea, that of synergy, particularly as an Elf player (wood, high, or dark).

I would, personally, mount your level 4 on a Dark Pegasus and grant her the black staff and a scroll, with careful movement, you should never be in a position for her to be harmed, and she can go to where ever she is needed most. Your level 2, I would grant the Tomb of Furion and a dispel scroll.

Instead of a champion for the Dark Riders, I would keep only the musician for their feigned flight rule, and grant them repeater crossbows. Use them to pick out war machines and break ranks (getting into combat only for this purpose)

The Crossbowmen are perfect, keep them just as is.

The two blocks of Corsairs, which are the theme of this army... running them 6x4 with the additional hand weapons is indeed very effective at cutting down low T low AS units, especially when combined with Frenzy...with that volume of attacks, can you see how great it would be for them to have Killing Blow? Or an additional attack each (4), or if they are dying too quickly for you, granting them a ward save? For them to be more effective against all targets (not just the squishy ones) I recommend the Cauldron. Drop your master on cold one and take a Death Hag with this toy and it will make these blocks much more deadly, completely worth the points in my opinion.

To make up the points, you may consider dropping the number of Cold One Knights. They are a large total of your points, currently, and 6 should survive plenty long enough to get into combat (again, not alone!) and do their job.

Lastly, a point of balance. I like the concept of being able to do a bit of everything decently...but the ultimate result of this, in my experience, is that you end up doing nothing particularly well. I find it better to focus on two phases of the game in which you wish to dominate. If it's mobility, harpies and dark riders, dark pegasi and so on...for shooting, dark riders, crossbowmen, bolt throwers...for magic, multiple (3) spell casters...combat, Knights, Hydras, blackguard...

you may consider dropping either the Hydra, therefore, and taking two more bolt throwers, or dropping the bolt throwers and taking a second Hydra...spilling your focus onto either combat -or- shooting, while making your Magic a definite strength. (in magic, go big, or go none. the Ring, and a level 1 scroll caddy, someone with the seal of ghrond, should do you fine if you don't like casting....otherwise, 3 spell casters)

Those are my recommendations...I hope they are helpful to you.

==Me==
27-12-2008, 08:58
Corsairs don't need to be run for maximum ranks, they cost a lot more than spearmen and don't compare when it comes to SCR. Corsairs kill people, so 18 or 21 is the most I'll ever take. Grab the Frenzy Banner and throw an Assassin in there and you have a unit that can tear up infantry and handle just about anything. Use cheap spearmen for ranks, Corsairs to generate kills.

Same goes for COKs, it isn't worth paying so much for a measly +1 rank bonus. You can get a whole other unit of COKs and generate a lot more CR from kills.

I run a Corsair themed list very similar to what you have. Block or two of Corsairs featuring Lokhir to kill things, Spearmen with a level 4 carrying the Sacrificial Dagger to magic it up and a level 2 on a Dark Steed for extra magic. Add Bolt Throwers, Shades, Dark Riders, and Crossbowmen to taste.

Taking lots of everything will end up with you getting outclassed in everything. Focus on fewer things (infantry, mounted, monsters, shooting, magic, etc) and you will find that you get much better at what you focus on, more than enough to cover any weaknesses left by neglecting other things.

dwarfhold13
27-12-2008, 21:58
hey there.. well.. i've been playing on army builder, and here is what i've come up with so far.. go from here and make recommendations
as for hero choices, there is only so much you can do.. since i'm going with less cold one knights.. i've thought about just not taking the hero on the cold one.. so i have two mages and lokhir, keeping with the corsair theme..
also.. i like not only the variety of the bolt throwers and hydra, but they do compliment each other well..
anyway..
level 4 w/ sacrificial dagger and 3 dispel scrolls
level 2 w/ 2 dispell scrolls and dark steed
(i could probably go down to 3 scrolls and save some cheese)
lokhir

19 warriors with full command

17 frenzied corsairs full command

18 regular corsairs full command

10 crossbowmen

10 crossbowmen

5 dark riders w/ musician and crossbows

5 dark riders w/ musician and crossbows

6 cold one knights w/ full command and +d3 combat res on charge

hydra

2 bolt throwers

i also have 143 pts. left to play with after taking the 2 scrolls out.. could try an assassin or another core unit maybe? also for that much i could go with some shades.. what do you think?

backslide
27-12-2008, 22:05
143, I would find 60 points and put it a pair of chariots give u more hitting power