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View Full Version : Invocation of Nehek is weird.



Chicago Slim
28-12-2008, 17:55
I've got a game coming up next week against an old friend, who'll probably be bringing Vampire Counts-- so I was brushing up on the VC rules, and noticed that Invocation of Nehek specifically resurrects command models first (starting with the champion).

At first I thought, "Ah, then you could capture the same banner multiple times!" Then I thought "but wait, undead are unbreakable, so you can only capture the banner when you've destroyed the entire unit, at which point they aren't eligible for resurrection anymore"...

Same's true of the musician, right? So, I guess IoN only ever resurrects those "other command models" if you've dropped the unit down below 3 models?

skank
28-12-2008, 18:06
Yep, thats right.
Its mainly because the VC fella will want to be raising his champion again after it gets killed.

GodlessM
28-12-2008, 18:07
Actually to capture a banner you must break a unit and then pursue it, so unless there is a special rule saying otherwise in the VC book, you cannot capture their banners.

McMullet
28-12-2008, 18:12
You can also capture the banner if you destroy the unit entirely (Rulebook p80).

EvC
28-12-2008, 18:24
I've got a game coming up next week against an old friend, who'll probably be bringing Vampire Counts-- so I was brushing up on the VC rules, and noticed that Invocation of Nehek specifically resurrects command models first (starting with the champion).

At first I thought, "Ah, then you could capture the same banner multiple times!" Then I thought "but wait, undead are unbreakable, so you can only capture the banner when you've destroyed the entire unit, at which point they aren't eligible for resurrection anymore"...

Same's true of the musician, right? So, I guess IoN only ever resurrects those "other command models" if you've dropped the unit down below 3 models?

This entire post is one big tautology :D

IoN will of course resurrect the champion if he has died in some other way, like allocated attacks :)

Raverrn
28-12-2008, 19:02
Could Harry the Hammer do it? I think he can...

Chicago Slim
28-12-2008, 19:39
IoN will of course resurrect the champion if he has died in some other way, like allocated attacks :)

Sure-- I'm at no loss to come up with ways for the champion to have been killed (plenty of things allow you to break the normal targeting rules, and kill the champ with shooting or magic-- of course, thanks to IoN, it'd be particularly foolish to choose a unit champion as the target for an HLR, but it's still possible...)

Really, it's the other command models that had me a bit stuck at first...


Actually to capture a banner you must break a unit and then pursue it, so unless there is a special rule saying otherwise in the VC book, you cannot capture their banners.

As noted by McMullet, this is simply incorrect.
It is, however, correct to state that the only way for an undead unit to lose their banner is when they're down to (at most) their last 2 models. Even then, the banner isn't captured, yet.

I don't remember Harry the Hammer's rules, so I couldn't speak to that point... Anyway, it's pretty much an academic conversation at this point: "Is it possible to capture an undead unit's banner, and still have it be susceptible to IoN?" The basic answer is "probably not". Past that, *shrug*, who cares?

Goruax
28-12-2008, 21:24
It is impossible to capture the same banner twice, for the reasons stated above.

ZigZagMan
29-12-2008, 04:47
Harry the Hammer causes fear in undead, and can cause them to flee if they are outnumbered. So you could capture their standard in that 1 particular instance without destroying the entire unit. However the standard bearer was never killed (assuming they weren't run down), so how can he be resurrected?

ehlijen
29-12-2008, 05:46
He can be resurected, he just doesn't have the banner anymore and so is no different from other models.

Keep in mind that 'standard bearer' and 'musician' aren't special models. They are roles that are passed on through the unit as the front rank is killed. So if you've completely lost the banner (via harry, it's the only way) but have still got the unit, you can't resurect the 'standard bearer' as there is no standard to bear.

The only thing this rule does is:
If one or two of the command group are dead and at least one is still 'alive' (and not broken - see harry) you can bring the banner and musician back (as the enemy hasn't taken the banner yet).

havoc626
29-12-2008, 09:31
Actually, what if an undead squad is reduced to to 1 model, and then the IoN is cast on the unit? In this case, the Banner Carrier would have 'died', and then been ressurected.

Just to give an instance of where this would come into affect.

Edit: No, I did not read the whole post above me.

nosferatu1001
29-12-2008, 11:25
Havoc - it doesn't matter, as you only normally capture Undead unit standards by completely destroying the unit; you have not destroyed the unit, so the banner is still on the floor ready to be picked up by theresurrected model. ANY model can pick up the banner as well - only the champion is a special model, the other two are special roles that anyone in the unit can fulfill.

The example above is using Harry, the only time any VC unit can flee from combat. You would have to chase them down to get the banner, but of course the unit is then destroyed as well - difference is minimal.

Borthcollective
29-12-2008, 17:43
The example above is using Harry, the only time any VC unit can flee from combat. You would have to chase them down to get the banner, but of course the unit is then destroyed as well - difference is minimal.

As soon as the unit turns to flee it drops the banner, you are not required to run them down to capture it, only pursue.

Goruax
30-12-2008, 04:16
As has been said, there are two cases where it can be captured;

1 - The unit is destroyed and loses the banner. They cannot be resurrected.

2 - The unit flees because of Harry. The 'Standard' is lost, either by simply dropping it as they run, or they have it captured by Harry's unit. As soon as this happens, the banner is lost, and the unit no longer has a 'Standard Bearer', but gets back a normal model.

DeathlessDraich
30-12-2008, 12:50
At first I thought, "Ah, then you could capture the same banner multiple times!" Then I thought "but wait, undead are unbreakable, so you can only capture the banner when you've destroyed the entire unit, at which point they aren't eligible for resurrection anymore"...


Yes, a pertinent observation.
I wonder if this crossed the minds of the rules writers as they wrote the ION rules.
Another thought - magic item upgrades e.g. for Bloodknights. Some might argue that these upgrades are *also resurrected* (the argument being it is *resurrection* and not *creation*) but I doubt whether VC opponents will agree.

Chicago Slim
31-12-2008, 22:07
Interesting point, Draitch-- I think that Blood Knight Kastellan is the only champion that can have upgraded equipment... With any OTHER model eligible to carry magic items, they can't be IoN'd once removed, so it's really just the Kastellans we're talking about here, right?

For simplicity, I think it's clear that skeleton champions and Wight Seneschals would be resurrected with the same gear their unit has, which is also to say, the same gear they had before. With Kastellans, those two things (what their unit carries and what they originally carried) might not be identical...

For my part, as a vampire opponent, I'd say that the model should always come back equipped just the same as it was before. No particularly good argument as to why, really-- just feels right to me.

Braad
01-01-2009, 10:11
About Harry, remember that he is a model meant for fun, so don't expect the official rules to be completely in line with what he does...

About the other:
All command models can have chance of being resurrected, if I see this right. If nearly the entire unit gets killed without specific attack allocation and only one model survives, then the last to die is always the champion. So, now you can resurrect the standard bearer and musician. However, if the same situation occurs, but an attack was allocated against and kills the champion, another command model survives. Afterwards, the champion can be resurrected again.

@ Deathless
About the bloodknights, I don't see why they wouldn't pertain their equipment. They are afterall the same model coming back. At least, I don't think any battlefield is littered with so many of the bloody knights, that they can pop out of the ground anywhere where the VC player wants them to, so I don't think it involves (fluffwise) any other long-dead knights.

Gazak Blacktoof
01-01-2009, 10:34
Even as a slightly bitter tomb king player (they get all the best magic, grumble, grumble) I'd have to say there's no reason that the kastellan shouldn't come back with any upgrades he's got.

If a unit of skeletons is upgraded to have spears, those that are resurrected wouldn't come back without them, would they?

DeathlessDraich
01-01-2009, 12:41
Chicago Slim, Braad and Gazak - seems you agree collectively that the Kastellan's magic weapon is also resurrected.

I would agree as well prior to the VC FAQ which muddies the ground somewhat. The FAQ doesnt mention this case but considering IoN for Spirit Hosts FAQ IIRC, there is an underlying emphasis that the *whole model* is not resurrected *intact* but IoN solely resurrects wounds.

I'm not suggesting that this FAQ would solve the problem of IoN on the Kastellan but I get the impression that the FAQ writers are veering towards IoN affecting wounds *only*.

Gazak - Yes the resurrected skeletons would have the same upgrades. Extending that to magic weapons might be unpopular with VC opponents but seems right!

Avian
01-01-2009, 13:06
Well, a standard bearer with a magic standard is resurrected with the magic standard, so why would a magic weapon be different? There isn't anything that suggests that magic items should get any kind of special treatment when it comes to resurrecting models. Thus presumably a resurrected Castellan still has his shield, his heavy armour, his steed and his weapon (whatever that may be). It would be very clunky otherwise. :)

Harwammer
01-01-2009, 22:33
If you get charged, have some skeletons get killed, but then have a hero use a magic weapon to resurrect the skeletons can those skeletons strike back?

nosferatu1001
01-01-2009, 22:34
It depends on what the rule for the magic weapon states.

If it resurrects them immediately, before their initiative step in the combat, then they may be able to. If it specifies "at the end of the phase" then probably not ;)

Harwammer
01-01-2009, 22:49
Good point :D

But the rule book also states that models that are removed before they fight don't get a chance to attack. I see no exception for models that are returned after they are removed, so I guess this means they can't attack back even if resurrected?

nosferatu1001
01-01-2009, 23:14
Unless there is somethign that overrules the BRB, I'd say they couldn't attack. Think of it as the skeletons behind moving forward, the new ones being res'd at the back of the unit....