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Arnizipal
29-12-2008, 04:09
Here's the situation as it starts out:

B: Black Knights
G: Grave Guard
S: Skeletons
P: Phoenix Guard


GGG
BB GGG
BBP PGGG
BBPPPPPGGG
BBSSSSSGG
BBSSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS


The Skeletons were in combat with the Phoenix Guard. The Phoenix Guard has this turn been flank charged by the Black Knights and the Grave Guard.
The Black Knights are lead by a Wight King with the Talon of Death (inflicts 2D6 S5 hits), which kills four Phoenix Guards in the magic phase.
The combat now looks like this:



GGG
BB GGG
BB GGG
BB PPP GGG
BBSSSSSGG
BBSSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS


The question is: are the Grave Guard and the Black Knights allowed to slide forwards to stay in combat? Their slide move is blocked by the Skeletons, so are they allowed to slide up first?

What if this situation had occured during combat? For example if the Black Knights had killed 4 Phoenix Guards on their charge. Would the Grave Guard have been allowed to slide?


And finally a slightly unrelated question:
Phoenix Guards are fighting a unit of Skeletons containing a Vampire with Blood Drinker (each wound inflicted can be used to heal yourself or your unit).
Phoenix Guards always strike first and kill three skeletons. Then the Vampire attacks (as he has a higher Initiative than the skellies) and kills two Phoenix Guards, thereby resurrecting two skeletons. Do these two Skeletons still get to fight?

havoc626
29-12-2008, 05:43
i think you would simply use the same rules as for attack a unit in the rear that has an incomplete rank. Even though the units aren't in base contact, they still attack as though they where as close as they could get. So the BK would have 3 models in contact, as would the GG. (BRB Pg. 36, Fig 36.3 - Incomplete Ranks in Combat. Might be a different page, as that is the small one.)

I think this would be right, and this is how I would do it.

ehlijen
29-12-2008, 05:48
This falls under the 'oddball stuff' category that is mentioned in the charging section of the rulebook I believe. What I'd do is slide the PG to the side so they are still fighting one of the flanking units (PG's players choice) and, yes, let the other unit out of the fight as they can't get in there anymore.

Solid State
29-12-2008, 06:00
i think you would simply use the same rules as for attack a unit in the rear that has an incomplete rank. Even though the units aren't in base contact, they still attack as though they where as close as they could get. So the BK would have 3 models in contact, as would the GG. (BRB Pg. 36, Fig 36.3 - Incomplete Ranks in Combat. Might be a different page, as that is the small one.)

I think this would be right, and this is how I would do it.

Actually the Black Knights would now only have 2 models in base contact (due to the Phoenix Guard being on the smaller 20 mm base), but otherwise from that, a fair conclusion to the original problem I'd say.

In regards to your 2nd question, although I don't have the rules to hand, I'd probably say yes, the ressurected skellies still get to fight.

havoc626
29-12-2008, 06:09
Actually the Black Knights would now only have 2 models in base contact (due to the Phoenix Guard being on the smaller 20 mm base), but otherwise from that, a fair conclusion to the original problem I'd say.

In regards to your 2nd question, although I don't have the rules to hand, I'd probably say yes, the ressurected skellies still get to fight.

Right, yeah, forgot about base sizes.

I forgot about the second Q. As it says that it cast like the IoN, the new Skeles would get to attack in that phase.

Arnizipal
31-12-2008, 02:05
The thing that bothered us in just moving up is that the Skeletons are in the way. The move you have to make to stay in contact is both up and forwards, which is quite complex and not a simple nudge like the example in the rulebook.

As a counter arguement: if the Phoenix Guard had been fleeing from the Black Knights and the Skeletons had restrained pursuit, the Knights wouldn't have been able to move past them either.

Condottiere
31-12-2008, 09:11
I'm probably wrong, but:

1. The PG are no longer in contact with the Black Knights since there are 4 casualties.

2. The PG would still be in contact with the Grave Guard, since there are no casualties; problem, they'd be arranged in a L shape. It would depend if you remove casualties like shooting, in which case it's legitimate to remove the PGs in contact with the GG.

As regards to the Blood Drinker, I have to sit on the fence, my gut says they can't strike this round, but magic is funny that way.

Neckutter
31-12-2008, 09:50
GGG
BB GGG
BB GGG
BB PPP GGG
BBSSSSSGG
BBSSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS


The question is: are the Grave Guard and the Black Knights allowed to slide forwards to stay in combat? Their slide move is blocked by the Skeletons, so are they allowed to slide up first?

What if this situation had occured during combat? For example if the Black Knights had killed 4 Phoenix Guards on their charge. Would the Grave Guard have been allowed to slide?


And finally a slightly unrelated question:
Phoenix Guards are fighting a unit of Skeletons containing a Vampire with Blood Drinker (each wound inflicted can be used to heal yourself or your unit).
Phoenix Guards always strike first and kill three skeletons. Then the Vampire attacks (as he has a higher Initiative than the skellies) and kills two Phoenix Guards, thereby resurrecting two skeletons. Do these two Skeletons still get to fight?

everyone is still in combat. their attacks would just "reach forward" toward the remeaining phoenix guard. you dont get to slide anyone at all, you just stay there in the awkward formations.

and yes, the resurected skeletons get to fight. check out the FAQ on the spear of antarhak for tomb kings. any raised in THAT TURN get to fight, but dont count as charging.

Condottiere
01-01-2009, 07:54
If you're not in contact at the start of the phase, the models can't exchange blows.

Braad
01-01-2009, 10:01
GGG
BB GGG
BX XGG
BX PPP XGG
BYSSSSSYG
BBSSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS



But those same rules don't really describe such weird situations, do they? At least, I don't remember reading anything about what and if it is even possible to lose contact with a unit in CC. So maybe contact is lost, but common sense tells me that no soldier is going to hang back in this situation, to just watch how their comrades are killing/getting killed... The rules do tell is to be gentle with each other, since it is still just a game supposed to be fun.
There are other situations where sliding, striking through etc. are allowed. When a unit is attacked in front and rear, BtB also isn't lost due to casualties. When do plenty of damage on the front rank, you strike the second or even subsequent ranks even though there is no actual BtB.

First of all: don't come up with a solution that is more difficult than the question. Sliding will cause many problems in this specific situation.
Second: easy solution, just strike with as many models that can, when they would step straigth forward. If there is only a single line of enemies left, I would say that a max of 2 warriors per flanking unit could attack. I marked those that I think could attack with an X. The two I marked Y already got a skeleton on the place where they would make Base contact if you where to move them forward like in the case with no skeleton unit.

No probably this won't get consent of some people here, or won't be allowed at tournaments, dunno... But often if you solve unsolvable questions by throwing in some logical thinking (what would happen in real life?) then that gives the best solutions.

Condottiere
01-01-2009, 10:05
Basically, I agree, but lapping seems to have been removed, and non-skirmish units can't lose coherency.

Neckutter
02-01-2009, 02:28
but you are in contact.
you can do two things. you can either slide the movement trays until you ARE in combat, or you could just let the models "attack forward" either way the models are still in HtH, as models dying cant bring you out of HtH with a unit.

the brb talks about this in certain situations about "tidying up" the battlefield by maneuvering the units so that everything isnt chaotic 40k with square bases.

Braad
02-01-2009, 09:48
Basically, I agree, but lapping seems to have been removed, and non-skirmish units can't lose coherency.

Well, I'm not really talking about lapping around... More like: filling up rule-holes with a bit of common sense.

Hereby I quote the most important rule in the book:
Warhammer BRB Page 3, under the title 'the most important rule': "...there are bound to be certain occasions where a particular situation lies outside the rules as they are written. Warhammer players should feel free to improvise where necessary, resolving such situations in a friendly and mutually agreed manner..."

Since in this situation, units are not allowed to deform or slide in such a weird way, but also no option is given to leave combat by casualties alone, I say it is not covered and this rule comes into effect. So: Improvise.
And as I said before, the best way to do this, is by using the most logical and realistic solution.

DeathlessDraich
02-01-2009, 10:52
This has been discussed a few times before.

1) Rules close to the end of the Close combat chapter - units can be disengaged from combat by casualties.

2) Problem here is - Incomplete ranks rules *do not* explicitly and sufficiently cover flank combats.
This situation requires mutual agreement
But

3) It is best to *assume* that the Incomplete Rank and Casualties rules can be applied to combat in the flanks.
Sliding should *not* be allowed in this case as it would not work in other similar circumstances.
Consider - a HE unit *not* in combat behind the PG.
Sliding would cause GG and BK to be in btb with this HE unit and violate Combat rules

4) The solution which would not violate other rules:
The Grave Guard and Black knights are disengaged from combat.

Braad
02-01-2009, 12:45
Yup, found that rule. But isn't that one meant mainly for cases where several friendly and enemy units are engaged, and one unit is excluded from the combat because the unit they were fighting is destroyed? Because in that case, it sounds more logical for a unit to go on moving again than in the situation described above where the enemy they were fighting is not completely removed...
Just my thoughts, of course.

About the 4th point you give, Deathless, wouldn't it be a little bit more logical if only one unit is disengaged? Maybe decided on a dice roll?

What would happen in the following situation:

DDD
DDD
DDDXZZZ
DDDFFFFF
DDDFFFFF
DDDFFFFF

Where X is a casualty just caused on unit Z. Unit D wouldn't be disengaged, would they, but instead Z slided sideways. So why disengage both units in this situation?

I can't really find much on this...

DeathlessDraich
02-01-2009, 14:30
The rule is - units responsible for killing and creating a loss in btb contact are moved forward to maintain btb.

The units that suffer casualties are not moved.

If the killing unit cannot be moved, because of terrain or units** other than the one/s they are in combat with, then they will become disengaged.

** These could be a) Obstructing friendly units
b) an enemy unit not initially in btb with the 'killing unit'

Anton
02-01-2009, 17:32
Phoenix Guards are fighting a unit of Skeletons containing a Vampire with Blood Drinker (each wound inflicted can be used to heal yourself or your unit).
Phoenix Guards always strike first and kill three skeletons. Then the Vampire attacks (as he has a higher Initiative than the skellies) and kills two Phoenix Guards, thereby resurrecting two skeletons. Do these two Skeletons still get to fight?If any of the resurrected models are command models, I'd say they can fight. Any other models are placed in the rear and cannot fight.

This is one of those things that should have a FAQ, though.

Arnizipal
02-01-2009, 19:26
Yup, found that rule. But isn't that one meant mainly for cases where several friendly and enemy units are engaged, and one unit is excluded from the combat because the unit they were fighting is destroyed? Because in that case, it sounds more logical for a unit to go on moving again than in the situation described above where the enemy they were fighting is not completely removed...
Just my thoughts, of course.

About the 4th point you give, Deathless, wouldn't it be a little bit more logical if only one unit is disengaged? Maybe decided on a dice roll?

What would happen in the following situation:

DDD
DDD
DDDXZZZ
DDDFFFFF
DDDFFFFF
DDDFFFFF

Where X is a casualty just caused on unit Z. Unit D wouldn't be disengaged, would they, but instead Z slided sideways. So why disengage both units in this situation?

I can't really find much on this...
The situation as I descrived above is not entirely accurate. The three models left in the end were the Phoenix Guard champion, a High Elf Prince and a High Elf Battle Standard Bearer. Since none of these are random troopers, I don't think they would slide to either side.

But I like the solution you suggest here the best so far. We played it that only the skellies could fight.


If any of the resurrected models are command models, I'd say they can fight. Any other models are placed in the rear and cannot fight.

This is one of those things that should have a FAQ, though.
That's how we played it as well.

Neckutter
02-01-2009, 21:19
Well, I'm not really talking about lapping around... More like: filling up rule-holes with a bit of common sense.

Hereby I quote the most important rule in the book:
Warhammer BRB Page 3, under the title 'the most important rule': "...there are bound to be certain occasions where a particular situation lies outside the rules as they are written. Warhammer players should feel free to improvise where necessary, resolving such situations in a friendly and mutually agreed manner..."

Since in this situation, units are not allowed to deform or slide in such a weird way, but also no option is given to leave combat by casualties alone, I say it is not covered and this rule comes into effect. So: Improvise.
And as I said before, the best way to do this, is by using the most logical and realistic solution.

i completely agree with what you just said here. it also does not give either player an advantage OR disadvantage. i always like to play my games with the issue of fairness at the center of all rules disputes. and when there is a rule-hole if two people cant talk out a solution that is fair, AND you cant agree to 4+ it... then you shouldnt be playing a friendly game with that person.

@anton that would require GW to spend 1 minute and fix a loophole.
however i have a sneaking suspision that GW likes to have holes in their rules.

Lord Dan
03-01-2009, 04:56
It seems to me that the biggest issue here is what kind of general allowed his Pheonix Guard to get flanked on both sides?

Condottiere
03-01-2009, 08:01
An impulsive one, I suspect. Difficult to believe it could be achieved when castled.

Arnizipal
03-01-2009, 14:44
It seems to me that the biggest issue here is what kind of general allowed his Pheonix Guard to get flanked on both sides?
There was a block of spearmen on each flank, but they got driven off by another unit of Skeletons and the Grave Guard respectively. Phoenix Guard cause fear, so they don't autobreak when outnumbered and with a 4+ ward and a rerollable (thanks to a BSB) Ld 10 from the general we were in for a long combat.
The battle between the Phoenix Guard and the Skeletons in the front lasted for at least three turns and at two occasions the the Skeletons were almost wiped out (only to be brought back with Blood Drinker and the Invocation).

It my last turn when I charged the Black Knights and Grave Guard into the flanks of the Phoenix Guard, resulting in the situation in my first post.

Lord Dan
04-01-2009, 00:54
So the game was already over? :P

xragg
04-01-2009, 15:07
DeathlessDraich is right on the money. My book is not beside me right now, but I recall a rule roughly stating that if a unit finds itself not in contact with an enemy at the end of a combat phase, then it is no longer considered in combat. The example in this thread is one way this can happen. Another common way this can happen is the following:

......bbbbbb.....A-eagle
....AbbbbbbC...b-swordmasters
.....DDDDDD.....C-chariot
.....................D-blood knights

If 2 blood knights die, then the eagle and chariot are no longer in combat at the end of the combat phase. If one knight dies, then either the eagle or the chariot will be out of combat at the end of the phase, depending on what unit killed the single blood knight.