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AUN'SHI
29-12-2008, 15:17
The pathfinders now cause their transport can be used by other have become better but I still don't see them as usable. Id much rather take almost anything else. aka fire warriors/kroot. They don't seem worth it imo it's like I have 1 unit that dosen't do damage. I think Id rather shoot with a unit of FW and possible kill something vs spotting for other units on 1 unit to get better BS/decrease cover/lower ld for pinning. Pluse they can't move and use their spotter gun:mad: so imho they will never be used unless I get bored.

Now the Piranha I don't think Ill ever use that vehice with the present rules. it's 60 pts but to make it actually good you need to give it a fusion +5 and TA +5 and disruption pods I think 5 or 10 pts making it either 75 or 80 pts of crap. Let me explain. It has 1 gun so if you get 3+ on the damage chart it becomes usless why cause even if you loose your weapon it can't do anything. I use this vehice once and never again will I have this on the team.

Now these are only my thoughts if somone has a good tactic with these I woukld love to hear it cause I like both of those units:angel:

Groo The Wanderer
29-12-2008, 15:23
Well, I agree pathfinders are expensive, but I usually take 6 (Altho I have 20 for use in apocalypse games) in larger games to give the fish to some FW's and then use their markerlights for seeker missles or raising the BS on key enemy units. In 5th, cover saves rule so anything that can reduce them is good as well...

Now the Piranha is a mixed bag, if you only have 1 or 2 they are not that effective, but they can carry seeker missles and if your Hvy slots are used up, that can be very handy getting a fusion blaster and 2 seeker missles on the board.. and again you have to remember that they can be fast skimmers and draw fire from other, more expensive units.... there's my 2 cents :)

Cheers

Col. Dash
29-12-2008, 16:06
They work quite good together actually. 1st use is to use the PFs to laser a tank and have the piranhas on the extreme flanks or possibly rears to fire their seeker missiles. The armor hit is dependent on where the missile shooter is not the pathfinders. I havent checked the FAQ this edition, but I am pretty sure the carrier's movement isnt a factor in shooting the missile since its dependent on someone else actually aiming(markerlights). Therefore turbo across the board and fire missiles.
2nd the other use as mentioned above, is the whole cover save thing. Plop them in cover and shoot opponents forcing them to loose cover saves with the markerlights. Meanwhile the manditory DF is ferrying around some FWs.

Carlos
29-12-2008, 17:18
Getting rid of the cover save on eldar skimmers more than makes them worth the money.

MrBigMr
29-12-2008, 17:25
Believe it or not, but Pathfinders, even with the Devilfish, have the cheapest markerlights per points.

Sanctjud
29-12-2008, 18:05
@MrBigMr: you are correct, but pathfinders don't fit everybodies play style, but markerlights are king IMO for Tau in 5th ed. Taking away cover saves is murder on somethings.

I've used a 2000 point list with 15 Piranha w/ Targetting Array and Disruption pods. I know I don't really need disruption pods, but I find it a nice investment when i have to put them out in the open first turn.
So far it's a very fun list, though it has it's problems to Loota Spam equivalent list. But they murder infantry and help with mobile wall set ups to make Fish of Fury perfect to guarentee no one assaults the fire warriors for a turn.

My 7 Cents.

Inquisitor Engel
29-12-2008, 18:05
If you don't think Pathfinders are worth their points, then you're not using them right.

Point for point, one of the most useful units in the army list.

Creeping Dementia
29-12-2008, 18:07
I have the totally opposite opinion of the original poster on these units. At this point I have 2 separate list I run with my Tau, both have maxed out Fast Attack sections and I wish I could have more.

My first list has 3 units of 2 fusion piranha. They are the answer to so many problems, such as hidden whirlwinds or Basilisks and advancing Land Raider spam. Against drop pod Dread armies if I get first turn I hold them in reserve so they arrive just after the first turn dreads get there and that makes for some easily killed dreads.
They are also great for racing up a flank and dropping off drones to harrass the enemy in the backfield. I'm very suprised the original poster didn't even mention the drones.

Also, just because they're fast doesn't mean they need to ditch the rest of your army on the first turn. One of the most effective tactics I've used in the past few months with the Piranha is to leave a couple units of them behind firewarriors/pathfinders and use the gun drones as a sliding curtain of mobile cover for the foot sloggers. Then when that Landraider full of CC deathy goodness comes storming toward your lines just hop the Piranha over and pop that lousy hunk of metal.

The Seeker missile aspect of the Piranha has already been mentioned so I won't hammer that point.

As for Pathfinders, they are the Tau's cheapest way to get large numbers of markerlights. I like the stealth marker teams too, but it does cost alot more. As already mentioned, the Pathfinder devilfish is no longer just a waste of points, and now the vast majority of time that fish will be toting firewarriors after the first turn, so that is no longer an issue. Also the PF Devilfish gets a positional relay (I think thats its name) for free which is very valuable if you plan on deep striking any suits.

As for the Pathfinders being a unit that doesn't do any damage. My opponents think differently, which is why they really try to take out my markerlights sooner rather than later.
Look at it this way, you do a fish of fury tactic with 2 full firewarrior squads on an enemy unit. BS 3 and rapidfiring, you'll get statistically 24 hits from 24 firewarriors. If you shoot the target unit with a unit of 8 pathfinders first you'll get 4 marks. Up both those firewarrior units to BS 5, and those 24 firewarriors on average will get 40 hits, thats 16 more hits with markerlight support.
Now you could use the points the pathfinders cost to buy about 10 more firewarriors, and those 10 firewarriors will get you about 10 extra hits on that unit we were rapidfiring. So you're still 6 hits shy of what 2 units did with marker support.

In addition, those "no damage" Pathfinders can do similar things for every other unit (except Kroot) in your army, something you lose when trading out for more firewarriors. And they launch seekers, and reduce cover saves (the other uses for markers are rarely used).

Pathfinders, and markerlights in general, also vastly increase the flexablility of the entire army. Going against a horde? Let your firewarriors use the markers. Going against Marines (or equivilent)? Have your plasma toting crisis teams use the markers or take out that assault squad with a seeker volley. Going against a Mechanized army? Have your anti-tank weapons use the markers.

Bottom line, Piranha and Pathfinders both (can) work very well if you have an eye on the overall course of the battle. They are not just a point and click unit like Hammerheads, Firewarriors and Crisis suits, but they make them even better. For both of these units you have to get your mind off of direct damage and think more about the psychological aspects, mobility, and flexability. If you're only taking units because this unit has a bigger gun over that one, then you're missing the whole point of playing Tau.

AUN'SHI
29-12-2008, 20:42
If you don't think Pathfinders are worth their points, then you're not using them right.

Point for point, one of the most useful units in the army list.

Well I didn't say they were not worth their point I said they are not worth it aka worth taking....

and can you elaborate?

AUN'SHI
29-12-2008, 20:57
My first list has 3 units of 2 fusion piranha. They are the answer to so many problems, such as hidden whirlwinds or Basilisks and advancing Land Raider spam. Against drop pod Dread armies if I get first turn I hold them in reserve so they arrive just after the first turn dreads get there and that makes for some easily killed dreads.
They are also great for racing up a flank and dropping off drones to harrass the enemy in the backfield. I'm very suprised the original poster didn't even mention the drones.

Ok but your missing a few things that ill add... They are 60 pts a peice if you arm them decent they become 70 pts a peice with 1 gun hitting on 3 or 4's. So maybe they are good if and only if you take a unit. However that is pretty expensive and Id rather take xv8 or sniper drones.

So if I'm understanding it seems the piranhas are only good if you take a bigger unit of them. But are they worth it or would you be better off taking xv8's instead?

If you want to add some missiles to them your looking at maybe 90 pts a peice thats pretty pricy no? They seem to be more situational if anything.

Creeping Dementia
29-12-2008, 21:47
XV8s have their place, but up close with a fusion blaster isn't one of them.

As for points cost, my piranha are 75 points a piece (85 with a missile), 150 points a unit, and that unit contains 2 piranha and 4 gundrones. 4 Gundrones are about 48 points, so the Piranha with Fusion blasters are 51 points a piece. Incredibly fast fusion blasters that are tough to kill (D-pod and AV11 front), that not only pop tanks and termies but dilute my opponents anti-tank weapons, and can speed off to contest objectives on the last turn, and are much harder to catch and kill in close combat than an XV8 is, for effectively 51 points, doesn't sound like a rip off to me.

I personally don't take Sniper drones outside of Apoc games because they use a Heavy slot to do something my Elites can do just fine.

I don't take big units of piranha, one or two per unit, no more than that (yet).

From the looks of the points you keep bringing up it looks like you need to play a more stationary army relying more on bringing direct damage weapons on the cheapest platform available. Mobility costs points. Flexability costs points.

Piranha are definately not a gunline unit, they work best with a mobile or hybrid army and playstyle. Same thing with Pathfinders, they work very well with a Hybid style army because they enhance the limited firepower you have into concentrated bursts, which allows you to surgically dismantle your opponents army.

Summary, yes, Piranha are "worth it" if you can use them well.

Thud
29-12-2008, 22:05
What the hell is going on? Pathfinders and Piranhas are bad? Surely things can't have changed that much since my glory days in 4th edition.

I swear by Pathfinders, and I never leave home without them in games of more than a thousand points. Yes, they won't kill anything by themselves, but they make other units do it a lot more efficiently. Twelve Fire Warriors hitting on 2+, three Crisis Suits with plasma hitting on 2+, railguns hitting on 2+, no cover saves for those annoying camping bastards in the forest; you name it, the Pathfinders can you help you do it. Light infantry, heavy infantry, tanks and snipers. None of them are safe if your Pathfinders guide whoever best suited to take them out.

And as for Piranhas. Get behind that Leman Russ, light it up with your Pathfinders and ram a seeker missile or two up its ****. Priceless.

As I see it Pathfinders and Piranhas can be challenging, but if used right they are absolutely devastating.

ReveredChaplainDrake
30-12-2008, 07:44
Another Pathfinder fan here! Just check my sig. I love my Pathfinders so much that, when I didn't get any for Christmas, I kitbashed some out of Kroot.

While the merits of Markerlights have been sufficiently beaten into the dirt, something I wish to add is that Pathfinder Markerlights aren't giving anything up to shoot that Markerlight. Despite seeing them in nearly every other army list, I never use Markers on Fire Warrior Shas'uis if I can help it because the unit that the Markerlight is shooting at must also be the unit that the rest of your Fire Warriors are shooting at, unless you give the Shas'ui a HW Target Lock, which makes him even more unnecessarily expensive. But with Pathfinders, you are shooting all your Markerlights at once and can then shape the rest of your shooting phase around your results. This adds flexibility to what stuffing a Markerlight in each Fire Warrior unit doesn't give. The only problem is that you're limited to one Marker target, so I remedy this with 2 units of 6. (It also gives me double the Uberfish, to the point where I don't even bother with the normal Devilfish. :evilgrin:)

For a more unorthodox approach, Pathfinders can Outflank. With their Devilfish. IIRC, Kroot can get in the Devilfish, assuming their unit is small enough. Hilarity ensues.


Ok but your missing a few things that ill add... They are 60 pts a peice if you arm them decent they become 70 pts a peice with 1 gun hitting on 3 or 4's. So maybe they are good if and only if you take a unit. However that is pretty expensive and Id rather take xv8 or sniper drones.
Personally, I find that if Tau are having anti-tank troubles at all, you're not using nearly enough Railguns. IMHO, no Tau list under 1500 pts has any business showing up without at least three. Fusion Guns are pretty poor anti-tank anyway thanks to their range, and are much better off on TEQ-hunting XV8s.


So if I'm understanding it seems the piranhas are only good if you take a bigger unit of them. But are they worth it or would you be better off taking xv8's instead?
Here's a fun little tidbit about Piranah units. According to the new Vehicle Squadron rules, any member of a Vehicle Squadron ignores all Shake and Stun results. The catch is that, if you get Immobilized, you die, but Piranahs are fast skimmers anyway so they'd probably die regardless. (Hello, Decoy Launchers...) But the point is that, when you're a stun-proof Fusion Gun that's virtually untouchable in assault, you can do all sorts of sneaky things.

Probably the most entertaining thing about Piranahs, aside from the Seeker Missile enema, is that they're basically two Fast Attack choices in one: Piranahs and Gun Drones. The problem is that, unless you were planning on using a unit of Gun Drones, this makes the Piranah unit overcosted, but if you were planning on Droning up anyway, Piranahs are like Drone upgrades.

However, I would have to agree with the OP that Piranahs are extremely situational (read: useless against Orks), while Pathfinders are useful against everything.

Thud
30-12-2008, 08:06
For a more unorthodox approach, Pathfinders can Outflank. With their Devilfish. IIRC, Kroot can get in the Devilfish, assuming their unit is small enough. Hilarity ensues.

Indeed. I have never used Kroot, but just because of this alone I'm seriously considering painting up ten. :D


Personally, I find that if Tau are having anti-tank troubles at all, you're not using nearly enough Railguns. IMHO, no Tau list under 1500 pts has any business showing up without at least three. Fusion Guns are pretty poor anti-tank anyway thanks to their range, and are much better off on TEQ-hunting XV8s.

I don't have any railguns in my 1500 point army, and I'm doing just fine. Heck, I don't even use heavy support at all. But then again, my approach to Tau borders on the extreme unorthodox. ;)

mughi3
30-12-2008, 10:46
I wish they had brought the tetra's over from FW with the piranha, they are a much better option for a mobile marker light than a standard pathfinder team.

Col. Dash
30-12-2008, 13:09
I agree, I am a big tetra fan. Well if they keep advancing the Codex, maybe we will get lucky and see them in the next one. Talk about running out of fast attack slots.

AUN'SHI
30-12-2008, 14:14
I don't take big units of piranha, one or two per unit, no more than that (yet).

So lets say 1500 pts do you run 2 and are they in the same unit? I guess splitting them would be the best choice?

To be honest I don't loose very often with my Tau. In fact I usually play against space marines and I believe I have lost 2 or 3 out of maybe 15/20 games. Vehicles are never a problem in my 1500pt army I have 4 rail guns so usually vehicles go boom pretty quick espically if I get 1st turn.

I also use to live by using the Aun (re-roll ld test) but I no longer feel this guy is really needed.... (Bring back Aun'Shi :cries:) What are the Tau players thought on the Aun? Anyone else think these guys should be able to get some sort of armour? It's like Lord Aun we made this xv9ii super suite for you to wear. It has a super sheild/a super cc weapon/and gun to boot. The Aun is like no I only go to battle with my robe and this stick I just picked up from the floor :S....

And does anyone use the sky ray? imo I find this to be one of the worst if not the worst vehicles in the game? Now maybe I'm wrong but I really can't see a way to use this thing? Anyone have good use with it?

Creeping Dementia
30-12-2008, 16:11
Quote I don't take big units of piranha, one or two per unit, no more than that (yet).
So lets say 1500 pts do you run 2 and are they in the same unit? I guess splitting them would be the best choice?

I don't think I've ever made a 1500pt list, we generally play 2000 points in my area, and generally only play less than that with new players or doubles tourneys. I think in a 1500 point list I'd probably bring 2 to 4 Piranha. In my 2000pt lists I either have 4 or 6, dependent on whether I bring Pathfinders or not. I usually run 2 per unit to better make sure one of them makes it to the target, but solo Piranha also can work extremely well because they are ignored more often. A general guideline for me is: Fusion piranha come in units of 1 or 2 piranha. Burst Piranha, 3 or more per unit.

Ethereals suck. You know how in some codexes there are always some units that you eventually forget are in there? That's ethereals. I've seen many different theories on potential uses of the Aun, but they never pan out. The best thing about them is the ability to bring a unit of BS 4 firewarriors, but still not worth the HQ slot or the extra points. I agree with you on this one, leave the Aun at home.

I disagree on the Skyray, but a few months ago I would have agreed with you. In 5th edition I think that the Skyray has become what it always supposed to be. It isn't a tank for everyone though, and depends much more on player preferences than Broadsides or Hammerheads do. In 4th I used to run three Hammerheads, one with an Ion and two with Rails. Now I run 2 Rail HH and a Skyray (with plans to exchange a HH for a couple Broadsides).

The Skyray offers a couple things that can be tough to get elsewhere. First, mobile, sturdy, BS 4 markerlights, second, large numbers of Seekers, and third, a tank that can move a full 12in and still fire all it's weapons (assuming you take a SMS).

Things to note though: The Skyray is not a main battle tank, its a support tank, its there to support and improve the rest of your army. To really use the Skyray well you need to be taking at least some markerlights in the rest of your army, I like stealth marker teams, and scattered markerlights in stationary Firewarrior squads. Get those seekers launched as soon as possible and then mark up other targets for your Rails or Crisis to more easily eliminate.

Just keep in mind that if you aren't already planning on markerlights and seekers being a part of your army then the Skyray isn't the tank for you.


Oh, and as for Tetras, if all they gave us in our next codex was Tetras I would be a happy man, as long as they moved Pathfinders into a troops choice. I've never understood why Pathfinders are in Fast Attack anyway, they have similar job discriptions to Eldar Rangers and SM Scouts... which are troops. I don't know, probably just wishful thinking.

Captain Micha
01-01-2009, 14:02
In my Tau Army, Pathfinders are one of the few units I find worthy of fielding traditionally speaking. They serve the most purposes out of my forces.

Generally I have at least three of my six armed with Rail Rifles so that I have some much needed intermediate range, intermediate strength high Ap weapons fire in my forces. (I run vehicle heavy typically speaking ) the markerlights also make them a must have and I wouldn't be surprised if in the Next Tau Codex they take away our sergeant marker light options away entirely. Leaving these guys as the sole providers of markers.

The fact that they are scouts also helps me tremendously. I often use them to snipe command squads in particular, before moving onto other hard targets. The fish transport is just a ferry and extra support fire.

Pirhana, I bet if you had five of these buggers they'd be decent but really I agree you could do far better in the Tau army than fielding these turds. They are just too expensive for what they provide, if they cost ten points less a piece my opinion on them would be far higher. They are simply put too expensive to field otherwise. In 4e, I used to use them as strafers, shoot the target move on.

Now their only tactic has been taken away (Thanks gw with your stupid fast vehicle nerf) I doubt I'll be using them if I ever play a 5 edition game.

The Laughing Man!
01-01-2009, 14:32
I always take 3 FB pirhanas in 1000pts for tank hunting and drone dropping. My usual tactic is to "seed" drones behind my enemies lines (destroying fleeing units with something that is basically free is fantastic) and then go hunting for rear armour with the pirhanas themselves, while my hammerheads blast things apart more directly and my mounted firewarriors claim objectives and wipe out infantry.

Pirhanas are like a lot of other units in the game in that they will never be worth it if you don't bother to use them properly.

TheMav80
01-01-2009, 18:26
I have not used my Pathfinders in a long time. I didn't really find them worth it in 4th, I felt the need to stay as mobile as possible out weighed their advantages. Plus, they always got wiped out by turn two from my main opponents daemon bomb.

Now that anyone can use a dedicated transport and cover saves are so preevlant I have been meaning to bring them back. Two units of six and dropping the Devilfish from my FW squads sounds pretty good.

Ethereals got maybe slightly better. With his honour guard he can't be picked out in CC anymore. Still doesn't see worth it to pay 50 points for non scoring Fire Warriors, but it is at least a small improvement.